Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[farawayred]

I'm dying to see Fabinho-Gini-Keita over a few games.

[him_15]

Fabinho/Henderson-Gini/Milner-Keita/Ox, lot's of combination.

[ThePoolMan]

I reckon Keita deserves to be given a shot to start and play for at least 60 minutes against Spurs, and he needs more games to play himself truly into the stellar form he was in for Leipzig. Keita-Wijnaldum-Fabinho sounds good, and then put in Henderson or Oxlade Chamberlain to replace one of the midfielders later in the match depending on how it is going - whether we are chasing the match or wanting to keep it sewn it up..

[JackWard33]

I really think it's time to stop the experiment of moving Henderson forward and go back to him just playing as a #6. Even if that means he's second choice behind Fabinho. At the end of last season Hendo did inject some much needed energy going forward but as we're moving through this new season he really isn't offering anything beneficial in that role. I can understand if Klopp thinks Keita and Ox together as the #8's are too offensive but having at least one of them with Gini would still be an improvement.

Completely agree - the experiment should be over.
You can use him as an 8 occasionally specifically when you want to press more - he remains one of the best midfield pressers in the league - but he should be Fabinho's rotation option (and Fab will need to rest he hasn't done as well playing 3 times in a week)

Overall as I've posted I don't think for a second our team/squad was designed with the idea of fullbacks being the creators and the midfield being basically entirely defensive / keeping shape - its emerged purely because our progressive midfielders haven't been fit (AOC / Keita) or able to be effective 3 games a week (Milner) or not trusted there (Shaq) so we've had to cut our cloth accordingly and find an effective way to play until AOC and Keita are fit.

It was fascinating to hear Ian Graham on the Freakanomics podcast talk about one of the qualities he particularly looks for being midfeidlers that can provide penetrative passes in preference to pass completion rates and then watch our current midfield be the exact opposite!!!
Added to this that Klopp has almost always played with an attacking midfielder or at least a midfielder that can effectively progress the ball in this 4-3-3 until the very last few games of last year and the games this year (going back to Lallana and AOC.... it was often Milner when people insisted on thinking Milner is the same type of player as Henderson or Wijnaldam.... which they still do bizarrely)

Calling 'Fabinho - Wijnaldam - Henderson' our first choice or strongest midfield 3 is wide of the mark - especially when it's only the Keita injury towards the end of last season and the realisation that Fabinho was clearly better than Henderson as a 6 that caused it to exist in the first place!

[Magix]

I wouldn't say Fab-Gini-Hendo is the first-choice midfield; rather, they're Klopp's most trusted trio atm by virtue of being fit and available. Milly too is part of that mix but him being slightly older and the much more versatile, he's arguably the most useful coming off the bench.

I think Hendo's position is Keita's in the longer run. It's a matter of proving himself fit. And if he puts in more Genk-level performances over the next few games (whether starting or subbing in) when we get to the Man City game, the midfield selection could be interesting.

[Bjornar]

Overall as I've posted I don't think for a second our team/squad was designed with the idea of fullbacks being the creators and the midfield being basically entirely defensive / keeping shape - its emerged purely because our progressive midfielders haven't been fit (AOC / Keita) or able to be effective 3 games a week (Milner) or not trusted there (Shaq) so we've had to cut our cloth accordingly and find an effective way to play until AOC and Keita are fit.

I don't see why the original plan or intention matters. While you're right it probably wasn't the plan all along to have the fullbacks providing the offensive production not the midfield, what matters is that for the moment it's the solution we have arrived at, it doesn't make it some parenthesis or aberration in the team's development that it wasn't the design all along. The John Lennon quote that life's what happens when you make other plans applies to football as well, and it happens in the game all the time. Klopp didn't buy Salah to be the main goal getter either, but when he realised that's what Salah could and should be the plan was adjusted. Don't see what's different about the midfield setup, or why we should assume Klopp will necessarily look to go back to the plan as it looked like at the time when Keita or AOC were signed.

Calling 'Fabinho - Wijnaldam - Henderson' our first choice or strongest midfield 3 is wide of the mark

Hardly wide of the mark when they're the three who are starting the majority of the games at the moment.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

They're starting because they're fit and because both Keita and Ox have had injuries. That's not to say that they won't start ahead of them in certain matches as the season goes on, but they aren't the defacto midfield 3 based on ability alone.

[BrandoLFC]

I don't see why the original plan or intention matters. While you're right it probably wasn't the plan all along to have the fullbacks providing the offensive production not the midfield, what matters is that for the moment it's the solution we have arrived at, it doesn't make it some parenthesis or aberration in the team's development that it wasn't the design all along. The John Lennon quote that life's what happens when you make other plans applies to football as well, and it happens in the game all the time. Klopp didn't buy Salah to be the main goal getter either, but when he realised that's what Salah could and should be the plan was adjusted. Don't see what's different about the midfield setup, or why we should assume Klopp will necessarily look to go back to the plan as it looked like at the time when Keita or AOC were signed.


Hardly wide of the mark when they're the three who are starting the majority of the games at the moment.

I don't now enough to state with 100% certainty but most managers have their "ideal" and when given the chance will revert back to their "ideal".  And for LFC in particular if you could make the ball progression into the final 3rd more even across the FB's and midfield you make it harder to specifically focus on one player as we are now seeing our opponents do and of which we'll probably see tomorrow again.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I don't now enough to state with 100% certainty but most managers have their "ideal" and when given the chance will revert back to their "ideal".  And for LFC in particular if you could make the ball progression into the final 3rd more even across the FB's and midfield you make it harder to specifically focus on one player as we are now seeing our opponents do and of which we'll probably see tomorrow again.

We certainly won't see it tomorrow.






We play on Sunday 

[Bjornar]

I don't now enough to state with 100% certainty but most managers have their "ideal" and when given the chance will revert back to their "ideal".  And for LFC in particular if you could make the ball progression into the final 3rd more even across the FB's and midfield you make it harder to specifically focus on one player as we are now seeing our opponents do and of which we'll probably see tomorrow again.

Fair enough, and I too think Klopp's 'ideal' midfield includes either Keita or AOC. It's more the going on and on (from LFC fans in general, not anyone in particular) about it which grates, as the team right now is so good as it is.

[Ghost Town]

The fact is Klopp bought Keita, he bought Ox, he bought Shaq, he tried to buy Fakir. He clearly wants something more than just a power/athletic midfield, but injuries have prevented it for large periods of time

[Giono]

The fact is Klopp bought Keita, he bought Ox, he bought Shaq, he tried to buy Fakir. He clearly wants something more than just a power/athletic midfield, but injuries have prevented it for large periods of time

Don't know if it is that simple.

He bought Gini first.

He hasn't played Shaq much despite the injuries to Ox and Keita. And he passed on Fakir eventually despite the injury to Ox.

[farawayred]

Don't know if it is that simple.

He bought Gini first.

He hasn't played Shaq much despite the injuries to Ox and Keita. And he passed on Fakir eventually despite the injury to Ox.

Gini made sense (albeit I wasn't overwhelmed at the time) in his advanced role, but then Klopp made him more versatile. I still think that his creative fibers are not tickled enough.

Shaq was just too cheap to pass on, otherwise he wouldn't be in our  cross-hairs. Good player, but I still don't think that he fits us the way we play.

Ox and Keita were the inspirational buys and, admittedly, Fabinho took me by surprise. Fekir would have been in the Keita irk if all things worked out.

[Ghost Town]

Don't know if it is that simple.

He bought Gini first.

He hasn't played Shaq much despite the injuries to Ox and Keita. And he passed on Fakir eventually despite the injury to Ox.

That's not the point though; whether a transfer has worked out or not, or whether injury and other behind the scenes issues meant he ultimately passed on a player isn't the point. The point is he looked to bring those players in, therefore he must have had an intention to use such players; a plan for a midfield deployment that included such players. He doesn't buy for numbers or just for the sake of it.

[Giono]

Gini made sense (albeit I wasn't overwhelmed at the time) in his advanced role, but then Klopp made him more versatile. I still think that his creative fibers are not tickled enough.

Shaq was just too cheap to pass on, otherwise he wouldn't be in our  cross-hairs. Good player, but I still don't think that he fits us the way we play.

Ox and Keita were the inspirational buys and, admittedly, Fabinho took me by surprise. Fekir would have been in the Keita irk if all things worked out.

That makes sense. But was Ox really an inspirational buy? He came cheaply at the tail end of his contract and was being played by Wenger as a wingback. I found him to be a bit of a surprise as his star had faded at Arse.

[Giono]

That's not the point though; whether a transfer has worked out or not, or whether injury and other behind the scenes issues meant he ultimately passed on a player isn't the point. The point is he looked to bring those players in, therefore he must have had an intention to use such players; a plan for a midfield deployment that included such players. He doesn't buy for numbers or just for the sake of it.

I get that. But look how he persisted for Keita and Virg despite challenges. He dropped Fekir cold.

He doesn't buy for numbers but he buys to expand where they can or how they can play. So you are saying that he bought the others because he was unhappy with what he has. But I think he puts the challenge to these new players to add what they can AND do what Gini, Hendo, Milner can do. Maybe that is why Shaq is not playing so much yet Keita started matches early after he arrived. Actually, Gini came as a wide forward and added to his game under Klopp to the point where people don't think he is an offensive player anymore.

[Ghost Town]

I get that. But look how he persisted for Keita and Virg despite challenges. He dropped Fekir cold.

Again, there were extenuating circumstances as to why he dropped Fakir, but even if there weren't the fact that he went for him is a clear indication that he wanted a player of his skillset. Klopp is not in the habit of going for a player or type of player and then suddenly realising that he doesn't want that type after all. He and his team have a solid plan in mind.

So the indication is what kind of players they go for, rather than which are successful, I don't really know how else to say this. However:

He doesn't buy for numbers but he buys to expand where they can or how they can play. So you are saying that he bought the others because he was unhappy with what he has. But I think he puts the challenge to these new players to add what they can AND do what Gini, Hendo, Milner can do. Maybe that is why Shaq is not playing so much yet Keita started matches early after he arrived. Actually, Gini came as a wide forward and added to his game under Klopp to the point where people don't think he is an offensive player anymore.

No I haven't said that at all, and now I see where there may have been a misunderstanding. I believe Klopp and his team have a comprehensive plan which includes the skillsets of all the players they have bought and tried to buy.

Add them together and you get an inkling of what the full plan involves. It involves what Gini brings and it involves what Keita and Ox bring and it involves what Shaq was believed to bring. Even if maybe Shaq hasn't worked out that doesn't change the fact that he was bought in because he had something that Klopp and team wanted. Yes he was cheap, but they don't buy for the sake of it, however cheap a player may be.

So add it together and what do we get for midfield? I argue it's something more than than just a power/running midfield. I don't think I'm saying anything controversial here, just backing up what many others have said, which is that it's injuries that have made it seem like Klopp is only after a power and graft midfield.

Without injuries he would have implemented various deployments, including some where the midfield is given more of the creative burden than the fullbacks, as a matter of course, so that the idea that he only wants a hard running power pack would never have taken hold. We'll see how things develop now if they all stay fit.

I imagine Fab + Gini + one other will be the ideal template for bigger games, with slight changes to this for the easier games, with Ox and Keita being that other more often than not, and Hendo and Milner becoming alternatives for rotation. Shaq is less clear because it's not quite clear yet whether he has just been unfortunate or whether he hasn't matched expectations. I see no point in speculating on that.
 

[Bjornar]

Add them together and you get an inkling of what the full plan involves. It involves what Gini brings and it involves what Keita and Ox bring and it involves what Shaq was believed to bring. Even if maybe Shaq hasn't worked out that doesn't change the fact that he was bought in because he had something that Klopp and team wanted. Yes he was cheap, but they don't buy for the sake of it, however cheap a player may be.

So add it together and what do we get for midfield? I argue it's something more than than just a power/running midfield. I don't think I'm saying anything controversial here, just backing up what many others have said, which is that it's injuries that have made it seem like Klopp is only after a power and graft midfield.

Klopp did buy those players for a reason and with an intent. He also played Gini, Milner and Henderson in lots and lots of games and continues to do so, have no idea why that shouldn't be viewed as an indication of Klopp's intent as well, rather than some sort of aberration.

When trying to second guess Klopp's thinking, I don't think it makes much sense to split the midfielders into either grafters or playmakers, or to view the current starters as "just a power and running midfield" with the players waiting in the wings something entirely different and more sophisticated. The differences in player profiles are just not as stark as that IMO.

A big part of the current starters not producing numbers (which both Gini and Henderson have done in different roles earlier in their career) is the workload Klopp puts on them, and he won't start Keita or Oxlade-Chamberlain unless they are able to handle that as well.

[Ghost Town]

Klopp did buy those players for a reason and with an intent. He also played Gini, Milner and Henderson in lots and lots of games and continues to do so, have no idea why that shouldn't be viewed as an indication of Klopp's intent as well, rather than some sort of aberration.

I'm clearly not writing in English so my apologies, as I thought I had made clear that they ARE part of his intent, as are Keita and Ox and all the other players.

The bit to concentrate on is: Klopp doesn't buy players or keep players for the sake of it, or to make up numbers. If they are at LFC then they are part of the plan

I hope that's clearer

[deFacto please, you bastards]

That makes sense. But was Ox really an inspirational buy? He came cheaply at the tail end of his contract and was being played by Wenger as a wingback. I found him to be a bit of a surprise as his star had faded at Arse.

We paid 30 million for Ox who had a year left on his contract hardly cheap given that we paid 30 some million for Salah that same summer

[Bjornar]

We paid 30 million for Ox who had a year left on his contract hardly cheap given that we paid 30 some million for Salah that same summer

And with the majority of RAWK posts saying we didn't need him and he wasn't good enough to get in the team. Then he delivered, got injured, and the consensus became that Klopp hasn't replaced his vital contribution to the team.

[vagabond]

And with the majority of RAWK posts saying we didn't need him and he wasn't good enough to get in the team. Then he delivered, got injured, and the consensus became that Klopp hasn't replaced his vital contribution to the team.

This is true (and I say this as a big fan of him), but it's important to bear in mind that Oxlade only started to become a regular after Coutinho was sold. Before that he was a rotation option. That role was always being performed by somebody. So it can both be true that when we had Coutinho, Ox would have been a rotation option, and when we didn't have him, he became vital and needed cover himself.

[BazC]

We got that contribution from Trent and Robertson when Ox got injured and Keita got up to speed and had his own injuries.

Trent especially - his productivity in attacking play is not only up there with attacking midfielders, it betters most of them. Only De Bruyne seemed to better him consistently.

Now that teams are wising up to that and fortifying their flanks - Man Utd did this very well last week, despite being an awful football team - Klopp will need that penetration from midfield again, as that’s where the space will now be. Ox, Keita and even Lallana will get more game time going forward. I’d like to see one of Ox or Keita start in midfield tomorrow.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

This is true (and I say this as a big fan of him), but it's important to bear in mind that Oxlade only started to become a regular after Coutinho was sold. Before that he was a rotation option. That role was always being performed by somebody. So it can both be true that when we had Coutinho, Ox would have been a rotation option, and when we didn't have him, he became vital and needed cover himself.

Not entirely true. Because Ox joined late on, he needed time to adapt to the system that we have in place, it had nothing to do with Coutinho or the role he performed. It was more to do with Ox not being ready to do what we asked him. This has been confirmed by Klopp on numerous times, ad it's the same reason why it took Fabinho time to get involved with the side.

Ox has played as an 8 for us 90% of the time, where as Coutinho has played predominantly as one of the front three.

[Giono]

We paid 30 million for Ox who had a year left on his contract hardly cheap given that we paid 30 some million for Salah that same summer

He is a former England International, Prem proven and only 24 at the time I believe. That comes at a hefty premium like with Maguire. T30 million is small in that light.

[Bjornar]

The bit to concentrate on is: Klopp doesn't buy players or keep players for the sake of it, or to make up numbers. If they are at LFC then they are part of the plan

I hope that's clearer

It's very clear - the midfielders all have a part to play, some as stopgap measures in the current limited power/running midfield, and some as future heroes ready to realise the actual plan which is much better than the 97 points CL winning one.

As you say yourself, it's not controversial and many others have said it. But that doesn't mean it's a valid viewpoint.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

He is a former England International, Prem proven and only 24 at the time I believe. That comes at a hefty premium like with Maguire. T30 million is small in that light.

That was also 2 years ago when the prices werent as inflated as they are now. It was still a lot of money given that he's had injury plagued seasons there and spent the later pare playing as a wingback

[oxenstierna]

Goals from midfield lately 

[DanA]

I don’t really get why so many are keen to change the midfield. This team has been on an absolute tear lately and having a combative midfield IMO has played a big part. Hendo, Gini and Fab might not be setting the world on fire with goals and assists but are a big part of our defensive record. Obviously VVD and Alisson played a massive part in the improvement as well but I do think our combative nature in the middle of the pitch adds plenty too.

I don’t think Keita/Oxlade are improvements. They’re good players and we need to rotate but IMO the starters are Fab/Gini/Hendo for the foreseeable future.

[RedG13]

I don’t really get why so many are keen to change the midfield. This team has been on an absolute tear lately and having a combative midfield IMO has played a big part. Hendo, Gini and Fab might not be setting the world on fire with goals and assists but are a big part of our defensive record. Obviously VVD and Alisson played a massive part in the improvement as well but I do think our combative nature in the middle of the pitch adds plenty too.

I don’t think Keita/Oxlade are improvements. They’re good players and we need to rotate but IMO the starters are Fab/Gini/Hendo for the foreseeable future.

As none of Gini,Fab and Hendo provide penetration centrally at an elite level, they not really creative they will struggle with low blocks and can have issues vs the high press. I think Klopp more been starting the MF for two reason bc of injuries and they been winnings. He doesn't like to change when winning also Keita been hurt so he doesn't want to over work him coming back from injury. Ox is coming off an injury and they are handling him carefully. I would expect to have 1 of Ox and Keita starting every game probably after this next international break.
 

[clinical]

I think Keita will be a regular soon.

[groove]

I don’t really get why so many are keen to change the midfield. This team has been on an absolute tear lately and having a combative midfield IMO has played a big part. Hendo, Gini and Fab might not be setting the world on fire with goals and assists but are a big part of our defensive record. Obviously VVD and Alisson played a massive part in the improvement as well but I do think our combative nature in the middle of the pitch adds plenty too.

I don’t think Keita/Oxlade are improvements. They’re good players and we need to rotate but IMO the starters are Fab/Gini/Hendo for the foreseeable future.

The main difference between us and City is the fact that De Bruyne and Silva give much more penetration through the middle of the pitch that Henderson and Wijnaldum don't provide. This makes us rely on our full backs for creativity too much which is an issue mainly because crossing just isn't as an effective big chance creator as through balls are. City are averaging a goal a game more than us basically because KDB is a big chance creating freak.

Keita is a unique player for us in the way that I don't think we lose much defensively by having him in the side - he is more than comfortable playing as a 6 in the past and his defensive stats are excellent - but gives us so much more on the ball with his ability to both play a through ball and be able beat a man off the dribble. We need to get him into the side as much as possible, in my opinion. He's just a flat out better all-round footballer than our other options there.

[Giono]

The main difference between us and City is the fact that De Bruyne and Silva give much more penetration through the middle of the pitch that Henderson and Wijnaldum don't provide. This makes us rely on our full backs for creativity too much which is an issue mainly because crossing just isn't as an effective big chance creator as through balls are. City are averaging a goal a game more than us basically because KDB is a big chance creating freak.

Keita is a unique player for us in the way that I don't think we lose much defensively by having him in the side - he is more than comfortable playing as a 6 in the past and his defensive stats are excellent - but gives us so much more on the ball with his ability to both play a through ball and be able beat a man off the dribble. We need to get him into the side as much as possible, in my opinion. He's just a flat out better all-round footballer than our other options there.

So we have to catch up to Man City?

I agree that Keita is a special talent though.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

You would think that the coaching staff would get the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing and they'll integrate the player in properly, particularly as Keita has had multiple set backs with niggling injuries. The season is long, if he stays fit, he'll be an important player.

[Funky_Gibbons]

You would think that the coaching staff would get the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing and they'll integrate the player in properly, particularly as Keita has had multiple set backs with niggling injuries. The season is long, if he stays fit, he'll be an important player.

You'd think so wouldn't you.

I've been at the stage with this management team for a long time now where I barely bother to look at the starting line-up on match day. We're too good no matter which team we put out.

[Jookie]

He clearly wants something more than just a power/athletic midfield

I think Klopp wants options in midfield. Lots of players of high ability who can rotate but bring slightly different skillsets.

That helps us enormously across a season when we play games that require different things from our midfield.

What I'll say though is that anyone who does play in our midfield needs to sacrifice themselves for the team and do a lot of unnoticed work to cover the front 3 and our marauding full backs but also block passing lanes so we don't let teams out easily. For me that's why any comparison to De Bruyne and Silva completely misses the point. De Bruyne and Silva are better attacking midfielders than any we have. They are technically superior to any midfielder we have (or on par at worst). I don't think that can be argued about. But would I have Silva over Wijnaldum in our team, with our system? Absolutely no chance. He wouldn't be able to do a lot of the stuff that's asked of Wijnaldum. You can say the same thing for any of our No.8 options.

Anyone saying that want a De Bruyne and Silva type in our midfield need to ask themselves what they are willing to give up for that? Stop the full backs attacking? Ask Salah and Mane to drop in more and 'cheat' less? Or just accept we are likely to concede a lot more? If you are thinking we could drop 2 attacking midfielders into our midfield and carry on as we are then I think you are kidding yourself.

Our midfield is not flawless. Nor our the individual players. But as a group they are brilliant for how we play as a collective. A European Cup, 97 points, 17 wins in 18 league games, 40 odd games unbeaten at home in the league. The list goes on. You don't do these types of things without quality all over the pitch. That includes our midfield too.

[Red Bird]

De Bryune, I'll grant you has not a good defensive side to his game but Silva is as tenacious a tackler as anyone we have.

[groove]

So we have to catch up to Man City?

I agree that Keita is a special talent though.

In terms of performance levels, yes, we're still a step off City. They are crushing it on the attacking end this season - 3.2 xG per game. Not sure that's sustainable actually. The only other over 3 xG per game season there's been was the peak Messi/Suarez/Neymar season at Barca. But that's the level we're talking about anyway. Bridging that gap offensively is pretty much impossible with our current squad but I think Keita elevates us a quite a bit on the attacking side without compromising anything the other way.

[SerbianScouser]

Anyone saying that want a De Bruyne and Silva type in our midfield need to ask themselves what they are willing to give up for that? Stop the full backs attacking? Ask Salah and Mane to drop in more and 'cheat' less? Or just accept we are likely to concede a lot more? If you are thinking we could drop 2 attacking midfielders into our midfield and carry on as we are then I think you are kidding yourself.

The notion that there would be some drop-off in our midfield with Naby and Ox is fanciful.

It was the case last season but this season our back 4 is much more exposed , we can't keep a clean sheet and as we've seen with the first goal yesterday teams do run through us at times and we're not as tough to play to against as we'd like to think (see Salzburg). Naby is perfectly capable of matching what Gini and Hendo do without the ball if not even more and even if it's more debatable with Ox two years ago he had his place cemented in our midfield thus displaying he's got the know how to meet Klopp's requirements.

We all have players we rate more or less but even if you believe current midfield options are better we are talking about marginal differences at best.

[PoetryInMotion]

As none of Gini,Fab and Hendo provide penetration centrally at an elite level, they not really creative they will struggle with low blocks and can have issues vs the high press. I think Klopp more been starting the MF for two reason bc of injuries and they been winnings. He doesn't like to change when winning also Keita been hurt so he doesn't want to over work him coming back from injury. Ox is coming off an injury and they are handling him carefully. I would expect to have 1 of Ox and Keita starting every game probably after this next international break.

Some of you are making out like the highlighted is a bad thing. We're winning with our midfield as a part of it. Penetration is becoming a bad word these days. We're somehow winning games without penetration at the rate that we're somehow defying football. We got to have had a pact with someone to do that with a bad 1st choice midfield/with no 'penetration'.