Topic: Legalisation of All Drugs

[CraigDS]

There's no such thing as free health care,those of us that work pay for it,drug users would also be paying for it in the same way that smokers always have.

If drugs are taxed the same was cigs are then I assume this will mean the price of drugs will be pretty expensive? If so what is the motivation not to turn to the black market for them (as people do for cigs)?

[cloggypop]

Dutch approach to drug addiction

https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/what-is-addiction-care

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

There's no such thing as free health care,those of us that work pay for it,drug users would also be paying for it in the same way that smokers always have.

Cannot believe that you just stated alcohol should be illegal,maybe we should all be tagged and have mandatory drug testing  (including alcohol) with those of us that fail losing our access to oxygen.

IF cannabis is illegal, by that logic Alcohol should definitely be illegal. Read my first post.

In case my view did not come across clearly.  Cannabis, Kratom, Khat etc should be legal.  I have no issues with Alcohol being legal, as long as other less impactful drugs are legal. People who drink their livers off while calling for Cannabis to remain legal and cannabis users as druggies/junkies or whatever else.... These are the people i want to smack in the face..   Alcohol is more dangerous than Cannabis, no doubt about it. 
However, Meth, Heroin and co are far more dangerous than the substances mentioned earlier, including Alcohol. Do i have a problem with these substances being made legal? No, not at all. Do I have issues with scarce medical resources being taken up by thousands of self inflicted heroin and meth users, which is inevitable after legalization, once the stigma and fear of arrest is gone... ?  yes, at the very least there is a debate to be had here. 

[Corkboy]

Do I have issues with scarce medical resources being taken up by thousands of self inflicted heroin and meth users, which is inevitable after legalization, once the stigma and fear of arrest is gone... ?

You simply don't know that and have no evidence for it.

[cloggypop]

IF cannabis is illegal, by that logic Alcohol should definitely be illegal. Read my first post.

In case my view did not come across clearly.  Cannabis, Kratom, Khat etc should be legal.  I have no issues with Alcohol being legal, as long as other less impactful drugs are legal. People who drink their livers off while calling for Cannabis to remain legal and cannabis users as druggies/junkies or whatever else.... These are the people i want to smack in the face..   Alcohol is more dangerous than Cannabis, no doubt about it. 
However, Meth, Heroin and co are far more dangerous than the substances mentioned earlier, including Alcohol. Do i have a problem with these substances being made legal? No, not at all. Do I have issues with scarce medical resources being taken up by thousands of self inflicted heroin and meth users, which is inevitable after legalization, once the stigma and fear of arrest is gone... ?  yes, at the very least there is a debate to be had here.

You have no understanding of addiction.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

You have no understanding of addiction.

As a sufferer of tobacco addiction, I am fairly familiar with the concept. Having said that, I acknowledge certain addictions justify medical interventions, whether physiological or psychiatric in nature.

Are we discussing addicts who want to be treated or are we talking about users who do not want to quit? You agree there is a distinction there?  The first category can justify medical treatment for their addiction.  The second category? I am not so sure.

You simply don't know that and have no evidence for it.

At the very least, the mathematical probability of health issues from meth/heroin/Fentanyl etc are very high, much higher than cannabis users for example. If you take a large enough sample of meth users and a control sample of non users and do a paired T test for incidence of serious health issues, I am fairly confident you will find a big difference. Let me see if i can dig up any such studies...

We are digressing from the crux of the issue where, which is legalization.  This is a separate discussion about assigning accountability and responsibility....

[Devon Red]

At the very least, the mathematical probability of health issues from meth/heroin/Fentanyl etc are very high, much higher than cannabis users for example. If you take a large enough sample of meth users and a control sample of non users and do a paired T test for incidence of serious health issues, I am fairly confident you will find a big difference. Let me see if i can dig up any such studies...

We are digressing from the crux of the issue where, which is legalization.  This is a separate discussion about assigning accountability and responsibility....

[pedantic] Independent samples t-test [/pedantic]

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

[pedantic] Independent samples t-test [/pedantic]

Sorry, my mistake! 
You are right of course...

[Corkboy]

At the very least, the mathematical probability of health issues from meth/heroin/Fentanyl etc are very high, much higher than cannabis users for example. If you take a large enough sample of meth users and a control sample of non users and do a paired T test for incidence of serious health issues, I am fairly confident you will find a big difference. Let me see if i can dig up any such studies...

Don't bother, because that's not what you said. You said....

Do I have issues with scarce medical resources being taken up by thousands of self inflicted heroin and meth users, which is inevitable after legalization, once the stigma and fear of arrest is gone... ? 

You are saying use of these drugs will inevitably rise if legalised. Where's your evidence for that?

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Well, its a logical conclusion to draw, isn't it?  I don't have access to any studies that proves it empirically, i will concede.  If Meth was legal, you would logically expect it to be more accessible to potential users , like in shops/pharmacies as opposed to scoring from shady dealers in questionable neighbourhoods. Basic theory of marketing management says there is a definite correlation between availability of a product and the degree of consumption. To put simply, the more available(and accessible) a product is, the greater are the sales and consumption of the product. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4308295/

You cannot prove causality but there is absolutely a correlation between legalization and increased usage.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Why have you posted a paper from an American site ?

It's hard to know whether to take it seriously without knowing his motivation for writing it and besides,it is about adolescents.

[Corkboy]

Well, its a logical conclusion to draw, isn't it?  I don't have access to any studies that proves it empirically, i will concede.  If Meth was legal, you would logically expect it to be more accessible to potential users , like in shops/pharmacies as opposed to scoring from shady dealers in questionable neighbourhoods. Basic theory of marketing management says there is a definite correlation between availability of a product and the degree of consumption. To put simply, the more available(and accessible) a product is, the greater are the sales and consumption of the product. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4308295/

You cannot prove causality but there is absolutely a correlation between legalization and increased usage.

Right, so no evidence. As Hitchens once said, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[cloggypop]

Well, its a logical conclusion to draw, isn't it?  I don't have access to any studies that proves it empirically, i will concede.  If Meth was legal, you would logically expect it to be more accessible to potential users , like in shops/pharmacies as opposed to scoring from shady dealers in questionable neighbourhoods. Basic theory of marketing management says there is a definite correlation between availability of a product and the degree of consumption. To put simply, the more available(and accessible) a product is, the greater are the sales and consumption of the product. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4308295/

You cannot prove causality but there is absolutely a correlation between legalization and increased usage.

And yet drug use of all kinds is far more widespread in the UK than the Netherlands.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

And yet drug use of all kinds is far more widespread in the UK than the Netherlands.

Exactly.

This topic is very interesting in many ways. Partly in how it illustrates how successful the anti-drugs propaganda has been over the 20th and early 21st centuries. In the early days drug prohibition had little to do with health concerns, much more to do with demonizing the black and Latin American population and protecting the interests of pharmaceutical companies and those producing plastic products that were originally made from hemp.

[Corkboy]

Exactly.

This topic is very interesting in many ways. Partly in how it illustrates how successful the anti-drugs propaganda has been over the 20th and early 21st centuries. In the early days drug prohibition had little to do with health concerns, much more to do with demonizing the black and Latin American population and protecting the interests of pharmaceutical companies and those producing plastic products that were originally made from hemp.

The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did. source

[Giono]

Sorry but everyone is allowed health care in the UK.


Should drinkers also have to sign away all rights to health care & would those that do no longer pay tax  ?

Smokers, skiers, cyclists,

The money needed for care of addicts will be drop in the ocean compared to the money that is saved on enforcement.


And addicts don't cost the healthcare system as much as long term illness caused by sugar etc. Heroin addicts don’t usually live till 100.

[Giono]

No comparison between Crystal meth and Tobacco. You can die from ONE dose.  Same with Heroin. These are clearly dangerous substances with heavy health implications.  When you take these substances, you know the risks.  Alcohol should be illegal anyway. Worst drug on earth and it is perfectly legal.  As a tobacco user, I am fully aware of the risks to my health, despite all the warnings and cautionary messaging from healthcare providers.  I am happy to relinquish any access to free healthcare.

If you are dead, there are no health costs. 

[drmick]

Right, so no evidence. As Hitchens once said, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

But likewise you have no evidence the other way- that legalisation  (and specifically legalisation, not decriminalization) of hard drugs results in less harm.

The status quo gives us real facts and statistics. Your proposal is a massive step into the unknown, some say it will be worse, some say it will be better. So just like Brexit really. Keep the status quo or take a punt with madmen.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

But likewise you have no evidence the other way- that legalisation  (and specifically legalisation, not decriminalization) of hard drugs results in less harm.

Our team’s research on Portugal suggests that drug use rates don’t rise under decriminalisation, and there are measurable savings to the criminal justice system.

In Australia also, there hasn’t been a rise in cannabis use rates despite states and territories introducing civil penalties for users. And research on diverting drug use offenders away from a criminal conviction and into treatment has shown that these individuals are just as likely to succeed in treatment as those who attend voluntarily.

https://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/decriminalisation-or-legalisation-injecting-evidence-drug-law-reform-debate

[Corkboy]

But likewise you have no evidence the other way- that legalisation  (and specifically legalisation, not decriminalization) of hard drugs results in less harm.

Right, but I never made the claim. That's how this works. Make a claim, back it up. Other people have cited the Dutch experience, so I guess that's evidence.

[CraigDS]

There many others factors to take into account when comparing countries like that. Holland has lower poverty rates, higher social welfare levels and an aging population - all of which will help it have a lower drug use level.

Around their more populated areas (so cities), the level of drug use is much higher than the national average.

[cloggypop]

There many others factors to take into account when comparing countries like that. Holland has lower poverty rates, higher social welfare levels and an aging population - all of which will help it have a lower drug use level.

Around their more populated areas (so cities), the level of drug use is much higher than the national average.

Most of the population lives in the Randstad.

[cloggypop]

I've lived in the Netherlands since 1999 and don't know anybody who has had their house broken into by junkies. Moved here from Hartington Road, L8. Bit different and I know which approach I prefer.

[Corkboy]

There many others factors to take into account when comparing countries like that. Holland has lower poverty rates, higher social welfare levels and an aging population - all of which will help it have a lower drug use level.

Around their more populated areas (so cities), the level of drug use is much higher than the national average.

Why is higher drug use bad?

[TepidT2O]

There many others factors to take into account when comparing countries like that. Holland has lower poverty rates, higher social welfare levels and an aging population - all of which will help it have a lower drug use level.

Around their more populated areas (so cities), the level of drug use is much higher than the national average.

The uk has an aging population, similar social welfare levels (just over 6% of GDP in Holland and just under 6% in the uk) and although poverty is a couple of % higher in the uk, there isn’t a massive difference.

Actually, it’s remarkabke how similar the countries are.  If you ignore the lack of hills and all the clogs and windmills.

We were comparing Holland with the uk?  It isn’t utterly clear.

[cloggypop]

More from the Dutch approach

https://www.government.nl/topics/drugs/drug-use-and-addiction-care

[cloggypop]

The uk has an aging population, similar social welfare levels (just over 6% of GDP in Holland and just under 6% in the uk) and although poverty is a couple of % higher in the uk, there isn’t a massive difference.

Actually, it’s remarkabke how similar the countries are.  If you ignore the lack of hills and all the clogs and windmills.

Average standard of English language may well be higher here.

[CraigDS]

Why is higher drug use bad?

I don’t believe I said it was. In fact I don’t believe I gave an opinion on it either way.

[TepidT2O]

Average standard of English language may well be higher here.

quite possible. 

[Corkboy]

There many others factors to take into account when comparing countries like that. Holland has lower poverty rates, higher social welfare levels and an aging population - all of which will help it have a lower drug use level.

Around their more populated areas (so cities), the level of drug use is much higher than the national average.

Could you provide some evidence to back up what you're saying? Tepid has already dealt with your wrongness on sociological matters and cloggypop has indicated your wrongness on your ill informed description of Holland's urban layout. It's a small place with quite a few people, there isn't a huge city/everything else divide.

I assume it hasn't escaped anyone that the people arguing against legalisation are the same folks who can't back up any of their claims.

[TepidT2O]

The real reason we don’t have legalisation ( or at least decriminalisation) is surely that no politician would be prepared to go through the backlash from the press.

The relentless barrage of negative media attention against it would surely be damaging for an issue that (let’s be honest) isn’t going to win any votes...

Thats even if the politicians had the predisposition to do so in the first place,...

[drmick]

Right, but I never made the claim. That's how this works. Make a claim, back it up. Other people have cited the Dutch experience, so I guess that's evidence.

Ok, would you like to declare whereabouts you sit in this debate?

If I was required to produce categorical evidence for an opinion on this matter, then my opinion would be that I cannot have one.

Governments and councils, businesses, educational establishments etc have made massive changes on all sorts of things without evidence, just because it sounded like a good idea. The standard of proof can be very minimal in those decisions. I am not saying it is right, just how the world works.

[CraigDS]

Could you provide some evidence to back up what you're saying? Tepid has already dealt with your wrongness on sociological matters and cloggypop has indicated your wrongness on your ill informed description of Holland's urban layout. It's a small place with quite a few people, there isn't a huge city/everything else divide.

I assume it hasn't escaped anyone that the people arguing against legalisation are the same folks who can't back up any of their claims.

I’ll do it when I’m back on my Mac. Pain on my phone to find the website I read those on earlier.

Also, I’m not arguing for or against it. I have pros and cons for it in my head and don’t have a fixed preference yet as feel I need more information before coming to a conclusion on it.

You’re being particularly dickish in this thread. No wonder so many of the threads end up locked in here when people can’t debate or discuss without reporting in shitty comments.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Why have you posted a paper from an American site ?

It's hard to know whether to take it seriously without knowing his motivation for writing it and besides,it is about adolescents.

Its a peer reviewed paper, how does it matter if its from an American website? It could be from a Timbuktoo website, doesn't really matter. All that matters is that the study is scientifically and methodologically sound, which is what a peer review is supposed to do. You just cannot dismiss studies from other countries, especially since both are developed countries with a reasonably good standard of living.  The findings are logically transferable. 

Another American study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352827317300125 about the changes in consumption frequency of cannabis after legalization. Not to say that increased cannabis use is 'bad' by any means. Just showing how legalization could lead to increased consumption in certain demographic groups and transferring the logic to clearly dangerous drugs like Meth. However, I do concede that the impact of legalization could be somewhat countered by knowledge about the significant risks of abusing these substances, leading to potential users staying away. Marijuana is not generally considered dangerous so i suppose many more potential users would be willing to at least give it a try, compared to something like Meth and hard opiates/opioids.

Will be an interesting research study to see if consumption of meth goes up on legalization, but for that you will have to legalize meth and that's not happening anywhere, fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence you are on.

For Cannabis, there is literally a treasury of studies out there showing that legalization is the best way to do it. It is a travesty how people are still being put in jail for just smoking a bloody joint around the world. Or even put to death in places in the Middle East and South East Asia.

For Heroin and Meth, I am not sure legalization is the way to go. The problem is, the only way to find out would be to legalize it for a designated time period and see the patterns of usage.

[Corkboy]

You’re being particularly dickish in this thread. No wonder so many of the threads end up locked in here when people can’t debate or discuss without reporting in shitty comments.

I don't care what you think.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

The uk has an aging population, similar social welfare levels (just over 6% of GDP in Holland and just under 6% in the uk) and although poverty is a couple of % higher in the uk, there isn’t a massive difference.

Actually, it’s remarkabke how similar the countries are.  If you ignore the lack of hills and all the clogs and windmills.

We were comparing Holland with the uk?  It isn’t utterly clear.

They might quite similar in terms of economics, topography and demographics. What about education? Awareness?

To answer the question if a country could be susceptible to drug usage should it be legalised is dependent on economics, topography and demographics. Because as you said, the UK and Holland are remarkably similar. And yet the common people's views on drugs seem so contrasting to each other.

There has to be some "external" factor that is not dependent on numbers and percentages that plays a vital role in determining where this stark difference comes from.

[CraigDS]

I don't care what you think.

Which probably explains your fucking ignorant attitude that comes across in most of the threads in this sub-forum.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

@ Corkboy

You do have a very confrontational posting style. Not that it bothers me (Way too old to being affected by the interwebs), but it does tend to set a 'tone' for others to follow.

You haven't presented any credible arguments for legalization of hard drugs. I would love to see studies or research making the argument that we will be better off legalizing hard drugs compared to the status quo. I have at least tried to present evidence and form a cogent argument, while acknowledging more research is needed before a definitive conclusion can be arrived

So to get this back on track, could you specify your position on legalization of hard drugs and justify your thinking? Cannabis is a non issue as pretty much everyone on here agrees on legalization or at least decriminalizing possession/consumption. 

[Corkboy]

So to get this back on track, could you specify your position on legalization of hard drugs and justify your thinking?

Either you trust adults to make decisions about their own bodies or you don't. I do.

As to yours and other comments about my posting style, as I have said several times on this thread, if you want to make a claim, back it up. If my insisting on basic discussion standards pisses people off, I don't care.

[Corkboy]

Just to elaborate on that, in my view the argument comes down to two basic issues.

Firstly, can adults do what they want with their bodies, or does the government have a role in regulating such matters.

Secondly, and if the answer to the first question is no and yes, respectively, then what principles do we use to determine how government should regulate.

I'm not really on the second question, as my view is that adults should be able to take what they want, and government's role should be limited to an information one. However, if other people disagree then my view on the second question is that the principles used should be, at the very least, rational. I don't think that's a controversial opinion.

For example, the current position in the US is that many states have now legalised weed for both medical and recreational use, yet it is still legally scheduled as a drug that has "no currently accepted medical use." Ecstasy seems to be less harmful than tobacco or alcohol (and also appears to work in treating PTSD) yet it is illegal and they are not. Ketamine has come to light as a treatment for depression, yet it is still illegal because some people like taking it for recreation. Heroin is not that different to morphine, which is prescribed for millions every day, yet one is trusted and respected and the other one is for scumbags. That makes no sense.