Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[oldfordie]

Watching that just made me sad. He can't even pretend empathy for those not in his group.

---

Anyways, Umunna's thinkytank commissioned polling from Opinium last week.

Opinium polled a representative sample of 2,001 UK adults, with fieldwork between 15th and 18th February.

Opinium (tables there)

Very encouraging, half the country feels the need for a new party but they must offer something different which goes without saying really. am sure the TIG agree with them, they can prove they have something different to offer, MPs whose only aim is to fight for the best interests of the people of this country.

[Zeb]

Very encouraging, half the country feels the need for a new party but they must offer something different which goes without saying really. am sure the TIG agree with them, they can prove they have something different to offer, MPs whose only aim is to fight for the best interests of the people of this country.

Be interesting to see how it holds up/develops (or not!) when it's not just a place to dream. Do have concerns about the values thing though - looking at the thread on Begum on here illustrates quite well how that split can work. That said, the Tories and far right parties are already yanking on it and Labour want it every way with their messaging. Not sure if anyone else has read the report Cloggy posted a link to, but Hope Not Hate continue to warn that Brexit is going to cause problems whatever the outcome with the far right being fed by the 'the elite vs the people' sloganeering. Sure TIG will be smart enough to figure a way around that - like you say a unifying message rather than a divisive one - and from being painted as 'the elite' themselves.

[classycarra]

Be interesting to see how it holds up/develops (or not!) when it's not just a place to dream. Do have concerns about the values thing though - looking at the thread on Begum on here illustrates quite well how that split can work. That said, the Tories and far right parties are already yanking on it and Labour want it every way with their messaging. Not sure if anyone else has read the report Cloggy posted a link to, but Hope Not Hate continue to warn that Brexit is going to cause problems whatever the outcome with the far right being fed by the 'the elite vs the people' sloganeering. Sure TIG will be smart enough to figure a way around that - like you say a unifying message rather than a divisive one - and from being painted as 'the elite' themselves.

I did read the HNH report, cheers for that cloggy. Saw Jess Phillips was promoting their funding drive earlier, but hadn't realised the report was out. Zeb, your point about the Begum thread reminded me of one of the highlighted developing threat that stood out:

-Continued decline of the traditional ideological far-right and the rise of an emotionally driven, conspiratorial populist message

[Zeb]

I did read the HNH report, cheers for that cloggy. Saw Jess Phillips was promoting their funding drive earlier, but hadn't realised the report was out. Zeb, your point about the Begum thread reminded me of one of the highlighted developing threat that stood out:

-Continued decline of the traditional ideological far-right and the rise of an emotionally driven, conspiratorial populist message

Hope in the sense of emotionally driven arguments based on values! (Having an odd day so forgive if I'm unclear or ambiguous in what I write - it's not deliberate.)

Thought this point was well made in relation to the highlight you mention, know you've read it already Cara:

"When asked about leading political figures, this disconnect is clear across the political spectrum, with less than 10% of people saying they closely identify with any leading political figure. We are facing a crisis of growing political mistrust across all sections of the population, with no figure able to galvanise the support they need to overcome this disconnect. A mistrust in political representatives adds potency to a mix of unmet expectations, broken promises, and possible further decline and anger. The result is an increase in the number of British people conceptualising the current problems they face as being the result of a corrupt and detached elite oppressing the (often undefined) ‘people’. While the far right has not necessarily created this narrative they have been beneficiaries of it." (p.29)

"The danger is that the overarching mobilising driver of this movement – the populist dichotomy of the ‘people’ vs. the ‘elite’ – is very popular. With trust in politicians and our political system reaching staggering lows there is a ready pool of people that could be attracted to this type of messaging. Whatever happens with Brexit there is bound to be a narrative of betrayal being advanced by the far right that will no doubt speak to large numbers of people in the UK and reinforce existing disillusionment." (p.31)

[oldfordie]

Be interesting to see how it holds up/develops (or not!) when it's not just a place to dream. Do have concerns about the values thing though - looking at the thread on Begum on here illustrates quite well how that split can work. That said, the Tories and far right parties are already yanking on it and Labour want it every way with their messaging. Not sure if anyone else has read the report Cloggy posted a link to, but Hope Not Hate continue to warn that Brexit is going to cause problems whatever the outcome with the far right being fed by the 'the elite vs the people' sloganeering. Sure TIG will be smart enough to figure a way around that - like you say a unifying message rather than a divisive one - and from being painted as 'the elite' themselves.

We have to accept realty, the country is split in half, all down to corrupt politicians, there is no way to appease the hard right nasty element and we should never try to do so, we can only support the politicians with the intelligence and guts to stand up to them and show them up for what they are are, Corbyns Labour threw the flag of surrender not long after the referendum result.am sure the TIG Will meet the lies head on.
 I think everything depends on what happens with Brexit, if Brexit is stopped then voters may get back to supporting Labour or Tory, I think most voters have seen enough, they are disgusted with the 2 main parties, they want someone else to vote for, stopping brexit wont save them from a backlash imo.
Brexit must go ahead to save our democracy is a perverse argument. Brexit will bring about change but not the change Labour or Tory party imagined a few yrs back

[Zeb]

We have to accept realty, the country is split in half, all down to corrupt politicians, there is no way to appease the hard right nasty element and we should never try to do so, we can only support the politicians with the intelligence and guts to stand up to them and show them up for what they are are, Corbyns Labour threw the flag of surrender not long after the referendum result.am sure the TIG Will meet the lies head on.
 I think everything depends on what happens with Brexit, if Brexit is stopped then voters may get back to supporting Labour or Tory, I think most voters have seen enough, they are disgusted with the 2 main parties, they want someone else to vote for, stopping brexit wont save them from a backlash imo.
Brexit must go ahead to save our democracy is a perverse argument. Brexit will bring about change but not the change Labour or Tory party imagined a few yrs back

Yeah, those are fair points. Was really thinking towards the electoral consequences of self-defining purely by socially liberal values to be honest, and still too influenced by thinking of it in terms of Cruddas etc. for Labour rather than reversing that argument for something new.

[Devon Red]

#prayforbroxtowe

5 weeks until Brexit and Corbyn has chosen to spend his Saturday rallying in the constituency of an MP who has done more damage to the Conservative party than he will ever achieve and has done more to protect the people of this country from a damaging Brexit than he has even attempted.

If you had asked me yesterday which high profile politician would be holding a rally in Anne Soubry's constituency this weekend I would have confidently predicted Nigel Frottage. Corbyn is now doing the work of the far right. He is their boots on the ground, and so are his supporters.

[TepidT2O]

This is a mind blowing denial of the antisemitism in the Labour Party absolutely mind blowing

https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1099064967494598656?s=21

I mean, 200 hundreds Jews wrote a letter to the guardian... So what (and one was Jackie walkers other half)).

85% Jews think he’s anti Semitic.

Imagine Christians saying that there was anti Christian racism (doesn’t quite work like that I do realise), imagine if the archbishop of Canterbury wrote to complain, if 85% of Christians thought it was correct.  Imagine if that were the case and you said, ‘but 200 Christians write into the guardian). You’d be laughed out of the place.
Imagine if black or Asian people were saying the same. Imagine if you told them th racism against them wasn’t true.  Imagine if just a few people wrote tot a newspaper to deny it so that was ok.

This is literally and actually the tactics used by far right groups.  It’s absolutely astonishing. Someone who has fought racism for their whole life and this is the best they can do? Does he think this is fucking UKIP?

The fucking Chakrabati report.  Someone who has never been a labour member even. Does a report for him and 3 months later is in the House of Lords. And we’re supposed to think that a job for life as an incentive doesn’t make someone a tiny bit biased.

Absolute fucking disgrace.  Just explicit discrimination of a type I’ve sledom seen.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Just saw this tweet from @rachael_swindon:

https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1098877152416722944

I do not believe for one moment her claim of ignorence. Although I've always voted, and always voted Labour, I have never been that steeped in politics. But even I totally recognise the usual tropes trotted out by anti-semites, and have done since my late teens (at least). The same thing goes for Corbyn's claim to have not realised that the 'Jewish octopus' mural was anti-semitic. So, the best claim to innocence these people have to a credible defence is that they are monumentally thick. The fact that we cannot (objectively) totally rule out their defence is damning in of itself.

[The Gulleysucker]

Yes, I too saw that the other day and thought it sounded somewhat unconvincing.

I think he/she or whoever is behind that account is probably attempting to now cover their arse over the legal action now being taken against people who have been employing anti-semitic tropes in their tweets over the last few years... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/21/rachel-riley-and-tracy-ann-oberman-to-take-legal-action-after-twitter-abuse-antisemitism


And that anti-semitic context reply "Pound of flesh" immediately below from one of her supporters, it beggars belief and demonstrates the scale of the anti semitism problem within those circles.

I expect these bastards will instead start using phrases like rootless cosmopolitan.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Edited my previous post to add copy of @rachael_swindon's tweet.

[Red-Soldier]

I notice that the Hope Not Hate results of the current state of hate haven't been posted yet.

Here they are

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2019/02/17/state-hate-2019-executive-summary/

Here's some stand out points:

The way Parliament has handled the Brexit process has deepened the poor attitude many hold towards our politicians. 68% now say that there is not a political party that speaks for them and 55% think the political system is broken

Anti-Muslim prejudice has replaced immigration as the key driver of far right growth, however after six years of increasingly positive views, attitudes towards immigration in Britain are deteriorating


    The extreme far right is getting more extreme and younger
    The far right is successfully tapping into the political rage and discontent that is prevalent in society.
    A narrative of ‘betrayal’ and ‘traitors’ increasingly dominates the far right’s discourse, with much of their anger focused on MPs – and female MPs in particular.
    Continued decline of the traditional ideological far-right and the rise of an emotionally driven, conspiratorial populist message
    UKIP has become a far right party under the leadership of Gerard Batten
    Continued increase in internationalisation of ideas, tactics, money and collaborative working
    The adoption of the ‘free speech’ narrative by the far right has enabled them to deflect from their own extremism and attract a more mainstream audience

49% of 2017 Conservative voters think that Islam is incompatible to the British way of life and 47% think there are no go areas in Britain where sharia law dominates and non-Muslims cannot enter


    Left-wing antisemitism is a very real problem. While extreme antisemitism and Holocaust
 Denial is less common, a larger number engage in conspiratorial antisemitism and use antisemitic tropes, especially in relation to supposed Jewish power and an even larger group are involved in denying a problem exists and dismissing the issue as a right wing and Zionist smear
    Labour is still not doing enough to tackle antisemitism

[BoRed]

Opinium polled a representative sample of 2,001 UK adults, with fieldwork between 15th and 18th February.

75% of Lib Dems think there's a need for a new centre-ground political party?

[Alan_X]

Just saw this tweet from @rachael_swindon:

https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/1098877152416722944

I do not believe for one moment her claim of ignorence. Although I've always voted, and always voted Labour, I have never been that steeped in politics. But even I totally recognise the usual tropes trotted out by anti-semites, and have done since my late teens (at least). The same thing goes for Corbyn's claim to have not realised that the 'Jewish octopus' mural was anti-semitic. So, the best claim to innocence these people have to a credible defence is that they are monumentally thick. The fact that we cannot (objectively) totally rule out their defence is damning in of itself.

Incredible. That last comment - ‘I suppose you want your pound of flesh’ refers to Shylock of course. The unreasonable, vindictive Jew in the Merchant of Venice.

Corbynistas just can’t help themselves. There’s no problem with anti-semitism - it’s just Jewish trouble-makers using their money and influence in the press. 

It would be like defending racism against black people by saying it’s just ‘uppity blacks’ who probably only want to rape white women anyway...

[Dr. Beaker]

75% of Lib Dems think there's a need for a new centre-ground political party?

That's going to be difficult, but that's their fault for breaking the mould.

[Alan_X]

This is a mind blowing denial of the antisemitism in the Labour Party absolutely mind blowing

https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1099064967494598656?s=21

I mean, 200 hundreds Jews wrote a letter to the guardian... So what (and one was Jackie walkers other half)).

85% Jews think he’s anti Semitic.

Imagine Christians saying that there was anti Christian racism (doesn’t quite work like that I do realise), imagine if the archbishop of Canterbury wrote to complain, if 85% of Christians thought it was correct.  Imagine if that were the case and you said, ‘but 200 Christians write into the guardian). You’d be laughed out of the place.
Imagine if black or Asian people were saying the same. Imagine if you told them th racism against them wasn’t true.  Imagine if just a few people wrote tot a newspaper to deny it so that was ok.

This is literally and actually the tactics used by far right groups.  It’s absolutely astonishing. Someone who has fought racism for their whole life and this is the best they can do? Does he think this is fucking UKIP?

The fucking Chakrabati report.  Someone who has never been a labour member even. Does a report for him and 3 months later is in the House of Lords. And we’re supposed to think that a job for life as an incentive doesn’t make someone a tiny bit biased.

Absolute fucking disgrace.  Just explicit discrimination of a type I’ve sledom seen.

Fuck me - he is a left-wing Trump. ‘There are good people on both sides...’

There’s horrific anti-Semitic abuse and death threats against his own MPs on one side but what about a few people who don’t see a problem? What about the report written by Chakrabarti, who I made a baroness a few months later?

In his demented mind they balance out somehow. ‘Yes people talk about a Holocaust but there are also Holocaust deniers... why don’t you talk about them?...’

[jillcwhomever]

And another one, “prepare for power” with one of the dumbest MPs and two of the biggest bonehead brocalists



This is happening near mine, need to find someone to visit out of town

Lara McNeil, isn't she the awful person whose "charm" someone pointed out the other night in another anti-Semitism bust up on Twitter? They really don't give a shit who they mix with do they? Actively taking people like her on these demos just proves that everything they say in nothing more than PR. Disgraceful.

[cowtownred]

I can't help but think there's truly a madness at large amongst certain sections of our population, a mass psychogenic illness amongst them that denies the evidence or seeks to excuse or mitigate their own behaviour or ignorance, and I expect in years to come it will all provide much source material for award winning research papers in behavioural science studies.

That is one of the most prescient statements I have read for many a year.
Gloomy, but accurate in every detail.

[Trada]

Starting to seem that the political pundits are giving the TINGe members special political status and they think it will be undemocratic if Labour campaigns to unseat them no big shock there really.

[Circa1892]

Chris Williamson speaking down the road today.

Would be worth the consequences to smash his ugly anti Semitic face in...

[Dr. Beaker]

That is one of the most prescient statements I have read for many a year.
Gloomy, but accurate in every detail.

AKA the internet age.

[Red Beret]

We’re severla years past a shot across the bows.

We are in a situation where there is mass antisemitic abuse.  People have left the party beciase of it.

To fire a shot across the bows now would be an act of utter cowardice and negekect.

My thoughts anyway.  We are waaaaaaaaaaay beyond that

I agree.  They've had plenty of chances to sort this and a ton of other issues.  They're just not arsed.  It's as if the party was run by a bunch of teenagers from their bedroom, with mum screaming at them from the bottom of the stairs that their tea has been on the table for 10 minutes and its getting cold.

What "Labour" need is a good old fashioned shock now.  And just pulling the plug on donations is just the thing.  They might be worried about agitation within their own union membership, but if this new movement loses momentum (no pun intended) because people are still worried about the potential implications then its already doomed.

[Jiminy Cricket]

75% of Lib Dems think there's a need for a new centre-ground political party?

The Lib-Dems are, if nothing else, pragmatic. I actually applaud their attitude.

[Red Beret]

We could sadly be witnessing the death throws of a suicide of a once great institution.

It's a tragic tale and was avoidable if there had been any attempt at pragmatism shown.

But unfortunately pragmatism requires an understanding of your limitations combined with applied intelligence, qualities that seem currently rare amongst those in which we require it to be present, especially if they wish to achieve their objectives with minimum fuss and not cause the horses to bolt.

Instead we seem to have a gimlet eyed pursuit of a stale dogma together with a misplaced certitude of correctness, and a damn the consequences attitude.

I can't help but think there's truly a madness at large amongst certain sections of our population, a mass psychogenic illness amongst them that denies the evidence or seeks to excuse or mitigate their own behaviour or ignorance, and I expect in years to come it will all provide much source material for award winning research papers in behavioural science studies.

On another note, where is Shami? I'm assuming since it's half term she must be off somewhere like Gstaad or similar at the moment rather than simply lying low and trying to avoid all this.

And this is the nature of Corbyn's inferiority complex that was discussed earlier.  Corbyn doesn't realise his own shortcomings, and tragically neither do his supporters.  When you promote yourself as infallible, then you don't have discourse and debate within your party - you have dissent and suppression.

Corbyn thinks he's great and he doesn't get why nobody who disagrees with him thinks he's great either.  Not sure he's ever taken advice from anyone who doesn't already have his ear.  And all disagreement is deep state agenda to unseat him.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Incredible. That last comment - ‘I suppose you want your pound of flesh’ refers to Shylock of course. The unreasonable, vindictive Jew in the Merchant of Venice.

Corbynistas just can’t help themselves. There’s no problem with anti-semitism - it’s just Jewish trouble-makers using their money and influence in the press. 

It would be like defending racism against black people by saying it’s just ‘uppity blacks’ who probably only want to rape white women anyway...

Today was the first time I have spent any time reading Rachael Swindon's twitter page. My God - it is a rambling pile of shite. There is no attempt at any kind of analysis - it is completely emotional, often based on half-truths, lies, or, indeed, even anti-Semitic tropes.

Yes, the comments are very telling. It is no surprise that such a page encourages those types of responses - and Rachael more than happy to receive them. The Labour Party (as an institution) has joined the Tories in being a disgrace, and are a joke to boot. Given the power structure as newly constitution within the Labour Party, I can't see how it now can be rescued. The good people are being driven out, leaving only an ever more concentrated toxic group of inept charlatans. The only way the the shift could be reversed is by massive numbers of fair minded individuals joining the the party - that would take time. But in any case, there just does not exist the desire within the UK population to rescue the party bu such means. The people who most likely to behave like this are more extreme individuals - which is how we have lost the party. So, the party seems set to be evermore an increasingly marginal, extreme leftist group.

Something will come out of this though. These kind of vacuums do not exist forever. I just hope that there is enough cohesion within the emerging opposition to prevent Brexit in the interim.

[Red Beret]

We have to accept realty, the country is split in half, all down to corrupt politicians, there is no way to appease the hard right nasty element and we should never try to do so, we can only support the politicians with the intelligence and guts to stand up to them and show them up for what they are are, Corbyns Labour threw the flag of surrender not long after the referendum result.am sure the TIG Will meet the lies head on.
 I think everything depends on what happens with Brexit, if Brexit is stopped then voters may get back to supporting Labour or Tory, I think most voters have seen enough, they are disgusted with the 2 main parties, they want someone else to vote for, stopping brexit wont save them from a backlash imo.
Brexit must go ahead to save our democracy is a perverse argument. Brexit will bring about change but not the change Labour or Tory party imagined a few yrs back

I'd add a bit to this.  Both sides have increasingly and deliberately sought to polarise the electorate as a means to shore up their power base, in the belief that no matter how far to the right or left they will go, they will drag their centrists along with them reluctantly - because they had nowhere else to go.

How many times have we had that discussion in these threads? In a Labour stronghold like Merseyside, that voted to Remain, where are your options? In a city that will vote for a chicken if you slap a red rosette on it?

Too many people still vote blindly, even when it's obvious their own party isn't acting in their own best interests.  This new group offers me a slim ray of hope that centrists on both sides can find a new home.

[Red Beret]

The Lib-Dems are, if nothing else, pragmatic. I actually applaud their attitude.

I suppose it could be argued they're a spent force.  Nick Clegg ruined them with that coalition, and everybody except Nick Clegg (seemingly) saw it coming.  Nobody's really paying them much attention right now, and TIG already has almost as many MPs as they do.

[TepidT2O]

John McDonnells week

Monday

I’ve been doing a lot of listening recently; I’ve almost finished the audiobook of Tony Benn’s diaries. I can’t recommend it highly enough. Tony was a great listener, especially when he was talking to people who agreed with everything he said, and it is in that spirit that I’ve called for a massive listening exercise so we can try and understand why a bunch of traitors and scabs left the Labour Party this morning. I hope this will be the first step towards healing the divisions between Blairites, Brownites and those of us who genuinely belong in the Labour party. Words are not enough, of course. We need action too. But that’s Jennie Formby’s job and she doesn’t get in ‘til lunchtime.

Tuesday

Let me be absolutely clear and please listen to me carefully as I speak extremely slowly and deliberately in a calculated attempt to reassure you that I’m an incredibly reasonable and rational man: I am saddened these Labour MPs have left. If there was a TV camera here now I’d look straight down the lens and address them directly by saying something like: ‘I’m sorry you felt you had to leave. I hope you come back. There will always be a place for you here in the Labour party”. But I haven’t got time to do interviews today because I’m reviewing the minutes of the Labour Representation Committee. I’m no longer involved in the day to day running, of course, and apart from being President, writing for the website and attending its annual conference every year I’ve pretty much cut all ties. But I never forget who my friends are.

Wednesday

The sight of those ex-Labour MPs sitting at PMQs alongside the trio of turncoat Tories made me so very sad. Sad and disappointed. Sad because they will all stand in marginal seats and keep Jeremy out of No 10. And disappointed because I won’t be chancellor in the first and only truly socialist government in the history of the western world. But what saddens me more is how awful those eight former colleagues of mine must be feeling, the poor wretches. Barely a minute goes by when I don’t wonder what more I could have done to prevent them from leaving. I can’t help thinking they should all stand down immediately and submit themselves to the will of the people by calling by-elections in which they’d be completely and comprehensively destroyed. Then I remember that’s just the other John McDonnell speaking – the one I keep locked in the bottom draw of my wardrobe with my copy of Das Kapital and my bust of Lenin.

Thursday

As John Prescott once remarked, in a quote that will always be remembered because it’s the only thing he’s ever said that made any sort of sense: “The tectonic plates appear to be moving”. That is my fear. The reactionary forces of the bourgeoisie were never going to stand aside and allow a Labour party led by a true socialist to sweep away the old order. And the traitors and capitalist stooges in the PLP are doing their dirty work for them. No! Shut up John. I told you to stay in your drawer! The truth is we haven’t dealt with antisemitism and bullying quickly enough. I recognise that. We’ve done enough listening. We need to take action. We need deselections! Loyalty oaths! We need show trials and re-education programmes! No pasarán! Power to the People! With our boxes of matches, and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country! John, stop it. You’re not helping. Please John.

Friday

Bloody hell, Ian Austin’s gone now. I can only tolerate so much. Then again, he was always a racist, immigrant-hating bigot. And didn’t he work for that notorious fascist sympathiser Gordon Brown? No, we will come together as families always do and get through this. And to anyone still worried about the state of the party I will simply repeat the advice I gave to a colleague at this week’s PLP when they asked me to help with a case of antisemitism: “f*ck off”.

[Bobsackamano]

Starting to seem that the political pundits are giving the TINGe members special political status and they think it will be undemocratic if Labour campaigns to unseat them no big shock there really.

Notice all my hard core Corbyn supporting friends on Facebook going on about TINGE incessantly. One will post a shit 'joke' and others will follow up with laughing faces like something truly hilarious is being said.

I also notice it's a smaller and smaller group involved with basically no interaction from anybody else including likes etc.

Now it could be this line off attack is so obscure that the 'hilarious' TINGE jokes are not getting any outside interaction. Or it could be more and more people have become tired of viewing propaganda and are ignoring them.

[Dr. Beaker]

Notice all my hard core Corbyn supporting friends on Facebook going on about TINGE incessantly. One will post a shit 'joke' and others will follow up with laughing faces like something truly hilarious is being said.

I also notice it's a smaller and smaller group involved with basically no interaction from anybody else including likes etc.

Now it could be this line off attack is so obscure that the 'hilarious' TINGE jokes are not getting any outside interaction. Or it could be more and more people have become tired of viewing propaganda and are ignoring them.

To be fair, if there is one situation I dread, it's the one where a colleague bursts out laughing and then pushes there phone towards you so that you can suffer what is inevitably a truly cringeworthy moment that you will never get back.

[oldfordie]

I'd add a bit to this.  Both sides have increasingly and deliberately sought to polarise the electorate as a means to shore up their power base, in the belief that no matter how far to the right or left they will go, they will drag their centrists along with them reluctantly - because they had nowhere else to go.

How many times have we had that discussion in these threads? In a Labour stronghold like Merseyside, that voted to Remain, where are your options? In a city that will vote for a chicken if you slap a red rosette on it?

Too many people still vote blindly, even when it's obvious their own party isn't acting in their own best interests.  This new group offers me a slim ray of hope that centrists on both sides can find a new home.

Yeah I agree I think it goes deeper than extremism as well. it's the lies and fantasy promises to justify there stance on Brexit. they can argue we have to respect the result of the referndum and leave the EU but they shouldn't lie to the public to win support, vote Tory we will deliver the will of the people, vote Labour we will get a jobs first Brexit. lies played a massive part in splitting the country.
I still think there has to be a public inquiry in yrs to come.
People will still vote Labour blindly, IMO many of us always voted Labour for a reason even if we did it in every election for decades. they believed their heart was in the right place, they may get things wrong but they will always fight for my best interests, the tragedy is the leadership today abused that trust and respect, ignored their voice. they have not acted in my best interests and I don't trust them because they have lied to win over support for a disastrous Brexit.
I also think the only ray of light is this new party, many now want a party they can trust to act in the countries best interests. politicians with the guts and intelligence to fight for the best interests of the people of this country. they are a party I feel I can trust.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Notice all my hard core Corbyn supporting friends on Facebook going on about TINGE incessantly. One will post a shit 'joke' and others will follow up with laughing faces like something truly hilarious is being said.

I also notice it's a smaller and smaller group involved with basically no interaction from anybody else including likes etc.

Now it could be this line off attack is so obscure that the 'hilarious' TINGE jokes are not getting any outside interaction. Or it could be more and more people have become tired of viewing propaganda and are ignoring them.

ash sarkar doing the moral outrage over it and a few days later those Sajid Javid jokes she tweets, sums them all up

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Fuck me - he is a left-wing Trump. ‘There are good people on both sides...’

There’s horrific anti-Semitic abuse and death threats against his own MPs on one side but what about a few people who don’t see a problem? What about the report written by Chakrabarti, who I made a baroness a few months later?

In his demented mind they balance out somehow. ‘Yes people talk about a Holocaust but there are also Holocaust deniers... why don’t you talk about them?...’

What's with all the blinking 

Blink rate tends to increase when people are thinking more or are feeling stressed. This can be an indication of lying as the liar has to keep thinking about what they are saying.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

“Letter in the guardian”

[Mutton Geoff]

Although i am stepping away from this madness. I would like to point out a few observations after reading the last few pages.

Why Broxtowe ? Well Labour came second by a few hundred votes so it will be one of the very prime targets no matter what party Soubry is in.

Totally relying on Twitter to form opinions is quite dangerous most might be using it in an honest way but anyone can put for example Corbyn, May, Mogg in their username and then post offensive shit and there is a clear percentage of people that do, so for me Twitter is not as secure a source as it should be unless it is the actual person such as an MP tweeting it.

Finally posters coming in here and calling all Corbyn supporters wankers and far worse abuse is not the way to encourage any mature discussion.
Some support him because he is a left winger, some support him with reservations as he is the leader of the party.
Some are hopeful he will change, some are supporting him till a better option comes along sooner rather than later.
Some have swallowed the propaganda and simply totally believe in the guy they will come off the worst when it all finally implodes.
 
However all these people with different beliefs and points of view than most in here i believe for the most part hold these views in an honest and decent way this doesnt make them all wankers and nor should it.

Unless you believe that only you can be right in life and everyone else is just a wanker for not agreeing with you.

Right back to the Rugby, France are doing well so far.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

[TepidT2O]

Rugby?  Fucking hell.

Fair points though otherwise

[oldfordie]

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1099301508418596864?s=21

A skinny bearded vegan trump here, the life long anti racism campaigner that doesn’t want to talk about racism

[WhereAngelsPlay]

https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/1099301508418596864?s=21

A skinny bearded vegan trump here, the life long anti racism campaigner that doesn’t want to talk about racism

He's a twat and anybody who went out of their way to be at that speech is a wanker