Topic: Hillsborough Chants need calling out by the Football Authorities

[storkfoot]

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2017/feb/16/manchester-united-st-etienne-plymouth-riot-cup-winners-cup

[ToneLa]

Mocking tragedies is no different from racism. If you get lifetime ban for racism, you should get also a lifetime ban for singing terrible disgusting songs about tragedies.

Agreed

It's prejudice it's bullying, which is picking on or making fun of serious things that nobody chose

No choice = you have to be nasty to make fun of it

They can't support their teams effectively and take it out on our survivors

[Son of Spion]

Maybe it's time to educate United fans then about their own history with regards to tragedy at football matches. I bet the vast majority of their fans don't know about this.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ayresome-park-tragedy-claimed-lives-17545312

As I've said before, They have an incredible lack of self awareness.

http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2012/01/12-january-1980-ayresome-park-collapse.html

There was also the tragic case of Paul Nixon. A Palace fan killed trying to protect women and children from being attacked by a coach load of United 'fans'. Stabbed, smashed over the head with a brick, then crushed under the wheels of the coach as the driver tried to move the bus as the windows were being smashed. A breeze block was also dropped on another Palace fans head in the same incident.

As you said, the sheer lack of self-awareness is incredible. Many of them need educating on their own horrible history before spewing their poisonous bile at anyone else.

Thing is, Ayresome Park, Paul Nixon and United's horrific history of violence have all conveniently been swept under the carpet by a media hellbent on protecting them. There are millions of United fans who don't even have the first clue about their own fan history, yet many of them merrily and joyously sing about Hillsborough.

You can't even point out these incidents as proof of their sheer ignorance and hypocrisy though, because you just get accused of using them to point score.

[Koplass]

I doubt that it will stop for a long time. It stems from the fact that a lot of their fans (not the majority) think that scousers are a lower class of person and it's ok to chant bile at them. Unfortunately the weak amongst their fanbase will sing along because it's cool to annoy the scousers.

You're right in that it's a deeper seated issue than just football rivalry. They're able to dehumanise Scousers because in their minds (and the minds of people up and down the country) Scousers represent the under class. Most of the stereotypes about the city are based around poverty, benefits and criminality and the British public have endured decades of propaganda focused on 'scroungers' and 'doleites'. That's why the Mancs always seem far more bitter than we are (even when they were winning everything). This isn't just about a city rivalry or sporting competition, for them Liverpool represents the lowest rung of social status - the poor, the unemployed, the uneducated, the lazy, the criminal. And because of that, their 'banter' goes way beyond the football realm and crosses over into hateful bile.

The issue is Mancunians, like most English people, aren't politically literate enough to understand that they're being duped by the ruling class to hate people who are essentially harmless. When you compare the negative effect to the economy that benefit claimants have vs. tax evading multi-millionaires, it isn't even close. But this isn't about logic and reason, this is about cognitive dissonance, bias and tribalism. They sing a song in support of a newspaper that is notoriously right-wing, sexist, xenophobic and libellous, and don't feel embarrassed in doing so.

We can force them into not singing about Hillsborough at Anfield by reducing their ticket allocation but that won't change their opinions on the people of Liverpool. Nothing they believe is rooted in truth, either about Scousers (Liverpool is far from having the worst unemployment, state support or crime rates in the country) or about the poor (they're not feckless, stupid and loutish) or about Hillsborough (it's not even up for debate). As long as we live in a country that votes Tory every four years, where your Average Joe gets his opinion from the Daily Mail and where football rivalry is deemed more important than human empathy, they'll be singing this at Old Trafford forever.

[ToneLa]

people are conditioned to hate the poor

"Liverpool is viewed as poor cash rules everything around me"

- the rest of the country (with, naturally, exceptions)

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Been offline for a few days, but made up to see a thread like this. I've emailed the club before about chants and think we need to keep the pressure up on them to act because it is getting ridiculous now and needs stopping before it gets worse.

Heard a couple of victims chants yesterday and heard that there were plenty of gestures coming from their end too. I also saw on another forum that there's footage and that the Police are investigating, has anyone heard anything about that.

[rob1966]

Been offline for a few days, but made up to see a thread like this. I've emailed the club before about chants and think we need to keep the pressure up on them to act because it is getting ridiculous now and needs stopping before it gets worse.

Heard a couple of victims chants yesterday and heard that there were plenty of gestures coming from their end too. I also saw on another forum that there's footage and that the Police are investigating, has anyone heard anything about that.

I think it was in the post match thread that the investigation was mentioned. There were hundreds doing the wall pushing gesture yesterday.

Fucking horrible from them, as an Everton shirt with 97 on the back and a wreath was laid at the memorial before the game.

[storkfoot]

There is CCTV all over the ground. It should be fairly easy to identify those low lifes, and there was easily a couple of hundred of them, who were pushing at imaginary Hillsborough fences. Personally, that gesture winds me up more than any chant as it is done by fellow scousers.

[rob1966]

There is CCTV all over the ground. It should be fairly easy to identify those low lifes, and there was easily a couple of hundred of them, who were pushing at imaginary Hillsborough fences. Personally, that gesture winds me up more than any chant as it is done by fellow scousers.

We were in the Main at their end and when they were taunted with "going down" the response was the wall pushing gestures and they were all looking right up at us, you could clearly see their faces and its obvious which seats they were in, so its not hard at all.

[Son of Spion]

We were in the Main at their end and when they were taunted with "going down" the response was the wall pushing gestures and they were all looking right up at us, you could clearly see their faces and its obvious which seats they were in, so its not hard at all.

Pictures of their faces need putting out and they need to be named and shamed.

Away fans need to know that there is no hiding place at Anfield for those indulging in this vile filth.

Let's see some of them shamed and losing their jobs. It will start to make others think before they act in future.

It's never been easier than it is today to identify these subhumans.

[DangerScouse]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/apr/25/rehashing-failed-police-claims-about-hillsborough-is-not-free-speech-it-is-cruel-and-wrong?CMP=share_btn_tw

[liversaint]

It's not about Hillsborough... followed by the usual twisted nonsense jumping through hoops trying to justify the unjustifiable

Great stuff Albie, very well put.

[KillieRed]

David Conn again produces journalism of the highest quality on Hillsborough

Absolutely. Stomach churning though. I actually actively avoid all writing on the subject, I only clicked on this piece because I knew the quality of the writing & the writer. I can’t face reading about the day anymore, and I only watched it on tv. Imagine how the families feel.

[Yorkykopite]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/apr/25/rehashing-failed-police-claims-about-hillsborough-is-not-free-speech-it-is-cruel-and-wrong?CMP=share_btn_tw

The key line in an excellent article is about the "preservation of hard won truths". Goldberg did not care about that, which was surprising. Those truths were won in court. Goldberg may not care about Liverpool supporters dying at a football match, he may not care about the families, but you'd have thought he would care about the integrity of the legal process. To put it at its crudest level it feeds and houses him.

[Realgman]

The key line in an excellent article is about the "preservation of hard won truths". Goldberg did not care about that, which was surprising. Those truths were won in court. Goldberg may not care about Liverpool supporters dying at a football match, he may not care about the families, but you'd have thought he would care about the integrity of the legal process. To put it at its crudest level it feeds and houses him.

well said that

[SvenJohansen]

Pictures of their faces need putting out and they need to be named and shamed.

Away fans need to know that there is no hiding place at Anfield for those indulging in this vile filth.

Let's see some of them shamed and losing their jobs. It will start to make others think before they act in future.

It's never been easier than it is today to identify these subhumans.

100% agree with this. Name and shame is the way to do it.  Spread it all over social media.

[Thepooloflife]

Yeah, it's gone on too long now........name & shame and full force of law - should be classed as a hate crime.

[mikeb58]

Age of this prick...vile c*nt.

[Son of Spion]

^
Hopefully that vile scumbag gets named.

And some suggest it's just the younger element. 

[stevieG786]

Age of this prick...vile c*nt.

What games this? And what’s he actually trying to say? Looks a bellend mind

[reddebs]

What games this? And what’s he actually trying to say? Looks a bellend mind

I'd hazard a guess it's the derby game last week and he's imitating the crush at Hillsborough.

[Red_Mist]

What games this? And what’s he actually trying to say? Looks a bellend mind

He’s saying 9 and 7….97.

A supposedly adult human being.

[mikeb58]

He’s saying 9 and 7….97.

A supposedly adult human being.

Yes, a disgusting '97 ' gesture, got this pic from FB, all the comments call him out for what he is, one comment says he's a City fan, but not sure that can be confirmed, unless something knows the c*nt.

[RAWK Meltdown #1]

The "No Room For Racism" campaign has (for me) really hammered home broader societal expectations about the kind of disgraceful behaviour that has long needed to be stamped out at football matches.

Perhaps another campaign along the lines of:

"No Room For Cruelty" might eventually be implemented?

It's problematic finding the correct descriptor however. I've used "cruelty" because that's what I believe motivates the unsavoury chanting and gesturing we currently witness, but I'm also aware that it's really not a specific enough word....and that....there are plenty of other, somewhat benign terrace dialogues which technically fall under this "cruelty" category.... but are much more tongue-in-cheek. At the end of the day, just how much do we want to try and sanitise the terraces and the assorted dialogues that pass from one band of supporters to another?

Yes...we'd like to stamp out racism and collective vocal attacks on gender and sexuality etc...but it's a tad easier to be very direct about these issues campaign-wise.

Mocking disasters where opposing fans or players have perished...is off course....the very epitome of finely targeted "cruelty" but I still don't think this word is the right one to employ. The offensive act is the disrespect of the dead and the bereaved, but there isn't really an "ism" which describes this and you can't really make this a "phobic" issue either....

If pressed firmly to try and coin an encompassing phrase....I'd have to call it "Tragedy Abuse." 

My point....anyway, is that in order to try and flush this out of the game, we need to really try and put some kind of name on it, and then campaign against it in a way the government and the broadcasters can put their weight and support behind it also!!

 

EDITED TO ADD: ( A provisional draft definition )

TRAGEDY ABUSE: def

"Any oral outreach, hand-gesture or written/pictorial material which intends to bring disrespectful or emotionally hurtful focus to any aspect of a specific football club's, (or wider parochial region's) current or historical experience with any tragic event, loss of life or bereavement including any of the former stated: which unlawfully suggests or insinuates guilt, blame or culpability in contravention of the established findings of contemporary legal process." 

[mikeb58]

For the low life...

Clouds


Look to the sky...clouds dark and grey.
But nature soon chases them all away.
It's God's way for a better day to create.
Then comes the sun, well worth the wait!

Now the day is warm, sunny and bright.
Because all those clouds are out of sight.
A bit like clouds, some people seem to me.
Casting their dark shadows, for all to see.

Frowned upon and disliked by one all all.
Clouds blow away, but such people crawl.
When their evil shadow is no longer cast.
We can all get on and enjoy our day at last

[Son of Spion]

Brian Reade brought this topic up today in his page in the Daily Mirror.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/football-cannot-allow-anonymous-cowards-26820916

[rob1966]

Some Manc c*nt has thrown the 96 wasn't enough insult at a scouser on the company twitter account. He's forced an apology from the company, customers have closed their accounts and he's been sacked.

Shouldn't have sacked him, should have transferred him to our Bootle branch instead.

[KillieRed]

How the hell does he explain that to his family?

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Some Manc c*nt has thrown the 96 wasn't enough insult at a scouser on the company twitter account. He's forced an apology from the company, customers have closed their accounts and he's been sacked.

Shouldn't have sacked him, should have transferred him to our Bootle branch instead.

Assuming he worked for your company Rob?

When you see people sacked for posting offensive stuff on socials, and there's been a few in the news over the last couple of years, it's interesting.

On the one hand the company may sack them for holding abhorrent views full stop. On the other it could be the need to be seen to be acting swiftly in case of reputational damage to the company. But for me, on top of these 2 reasons, I'd be sacking them for appalling judgement, not only for the post, but also the fact that it could be traced to them. If they're that stupid they'd be a liability for any business.

I think that if people spew hate about Hillsborough, or any other human tragedy, whether online, at the match, or wherever, they should be publicly identified so that people have a choice whether to interact with them. Whether as friends, acqualntances, or even professionally. I'd want to know if the barman, waiter, taxi driver, mechanic, accountant etc serving me spends his spare time insulting the dead and their families.

Until there's proper consequences for this, it's not going to go away. Has that arl fella in the away end been identified yet?

[naYoRHa2b]

He’s saying 9 and 7….97.

A supposedly adult human being.

I wouldn't of even got onto that, thought he was doing the wallpushing gesture, which I'm sure he's done plenty of times anyway.

Prick.

[vblfc]

The examples above are good (Robs example) and annoying (the picture of the twat doing 97 gesture). The fact the Company sacked the guy is good but seems it pretty much depends on the rules and actions of that company. The fact we are not sure of any action against the other guy clearly shows that it has not been spelled out what is unacceptable and what will be acted on by clubs or the police.
This still comes back to clear and consequential communication anr actions from all clubs, the FA, supporters clubs, police and media on what is unacceptable regarding hate songs and gestures.
I don’t get why is this not straightforward to get agreed and communicated?

[rob1966]

Yeah he worked for our company.

Customers saw the comments, rang up to complain, some have closed accounts and taken their business elsewhere. It was shown to me by match going Utd fans and fair play to them, they were disgusted with the comments.

[Realgman]

Yeah he worked for our company.

Customers saw the comments, rang up to complain, some have closed accounts and taken their business elsewhere. It was shown to me by match going Utd fans and fair play to them, they were disgusted with the comments.

More of that, its good to see, but what kind of fool does something like that literally in a public professional place...
Its a sickening inditement of a percieved increased acceptance of this taunting... could it really be as a consequence of what we know is a buried hatred (not just of the team but the people of Liverpool itself), bubbling over because of Liverpools amazing current success and the depths that lot are plummeting to? Surely its not that simple?

[12C]

You're right in that it's a deeper seated issue than just football rivalry. They're able to dehumanise Scousers because in their minds (and the minds of people up and down the country) Scousers represent the under class. Most of the stereotypes about the city are based around poverty, benefits and criminality and the British public have endured decades of propaganda focused on 'scroungers' and 'doleites'. That's why the Mancs always seem far more bitter than we are (even when they were winning everything). This isn't just about a city rivalry or sporting competition, for them Liverpool represents the lowest rung of social status - the poor, the unemployed, the uneducated, the lazy, the criminal. And because of that, their 'banter' goes way beyond the football realm and crosses over into hateful bile.

The issue is Mancunians, like most English people, aren't politically literate enough to understand that they're being duped by the ruling class to hate people who are essentially harmless. When you compare the negative effect to the economy that benefit claimants have vs. tax evading multi-millionaires, it isn't even close. But this isn't about logic and reason, this is about cognitive dissonance, bias and tribalism. They sing a song in support of a newspaper that is notoriously right-wing, sexist, xenophobic and libellous, and don't feel embarrassed in doing so.

We can force them into not singing about Hillsborough at Anfield by reducing their ticket allocation but that won't change their opinions on the people of Liverpool. Nothing they believe is rooted in truth, either about Scousers (Liverpool is far from having the worst unemployment, state support or crime rates in the country) or about the poor (they're not feckless, stupid and loutish) or about Hillsborough (it's not even up for debate). As long as we live in a country that votes Tory every four years, where your Average Joe gets his opinion from the Daily Mail and where football rivalry is deemed more important than human empathy, they'll be singing this at Old Trafford forever.

I know Tony Evans isn’t everyone’s flavour but he did a piece a while back about the “foreman class mentality” in English society. It is that class of person who thinks they are not working class because they have a clipboard and a better overall. They are they ones who would never ever strike, or even join a Union, but are quite happy to take the pay rise or holiday entitlement, or the better conditions, all because the boss has convinced them they are “management”.
They sneer at people on benefits because they believe somehow they work harder than anyone to afford their lease car and plastic lawn.
Some of them never ever get the clipboard but are conditioned by the Daily Mail and other rags to believe that it is only immigrants and foreigners who are preventing them from achieving greatness and getting that promotion and the better uniform.
You look at Patel and her family are the perfect example of how this pans out. Her family were lifted by their subservience to the Raj, from India to Uganda where they were placed in a position over the people of that country. Put there to do the dirty work of Empire. When you hear Patel has proclaimed that the British are the biggest idlers in the world, you hear echoes of her father moaning that you can’t get the locals to work harder.
Thatcher was a product of this mentality. Her father was a shopkeeper who joined the Conservative party in order to further his business. Young Maggie was taken along to the meetings where she was led to believe she was somehow a better class than the kids who came into her daddy’s  shop. She was told that their fathers were lazy strikers who wanted something for nothing. Yes she worked hard herself to get her degree but her political rise only came after she started her affair with millionaire Denis. But how she hated the unions and poor people, because they probably reminded her that her childhood wasn’t as rosy as she painted it.
Giving someone a target to punch down at is a classic way to divert attention away from the rich.
The problems of racism in America stemmed from poor whites being encouraged to believe they were better than poor blacks. We have it in this country, it was the Irish in the 1850s, then the blacks and Asians, then the poles and the other migrant workers. And the Foreman class willingly line up to given the chance to punch down, because they are conditioned to feel superior for doing it.
As you say, the United fans (and others) can feel superior to Liverpool when they can dehumanise our fans and punch down over Hillsborough.
I’ve even come across clients who refer to us as bin dippers which makes for difficult professional conversations. Usually they shut up when challenged even gently.
My eldest lad shocked me after the inquests by stating “well no one can call me a murderer anymore…”.
When I asked him about it he said it was a common slur thrown around at scousers at university, but he added “they soon shut the fuck up when I tell them my old man was there and if they want educating he would give me their email.” (Proud of the lad)
I’ve even had people express outright astonishment upon discovering I was there because I don’t fit their preconceived idea of the “fans”.
Sorry for the rant but sometimes it does get to you.

[Realgman]

Giving someone a target to punch down at is a classic way to divert attention away from the rich.
The problems of racism in America stemmed from poor whites being encouraged to believe they were better than poor blacks. We have it in this country, it was the Irish in the 1850s, then the blacks and Asians, then the poles and the other migrant workers. And the Foreman class willingly line up to given the chance to punch down, because they are conditioned to feel superior for doing it.

Thats a great insight.. for me this part of your post, is the heart of societal problems certainly in the western world.. The technique used to create the required human numbers for Armies, and Labour, for initially the likes of empire, and then industry, land, economic power, and political dominance.
The interesting thing is it was enforced often by (initially) a god given right to dominance with the ideas of monarchy.. then this idea was expounded with the "upper class", the idea that you are higher class because of the fact you inherited it ... and it stems from the idea that those who dominate are granted that right by the natural order of things... "god"..
Liverpool itself being in the past, one of the most important ports not just in the empire of britain, but the world, was flooded with the workers, sailors, immigrants, slaves, soldiers, traders, tradesmen.. and this created, to my mind, what is unique of Liverpool, an incredible diversity, sharing of ideas, knowledge of many people and their ways, humour, loyalty, family, music and the ability to have a great time, and enjoy the company of strangers.. As well as the resilience to deal with great strife..and stubborn fighters when wronged..
I'm Irish myself, and there is a lot of affinity in Ireland with the scousers, my understanding is, at one stage the population of Liverpool itself was up over 20% living there were actually born in Ireland.. sure even the origin of the word scouse derives from Lobscouse the stew the food of sailors... and if that isnt the same as irish stew i dont know what is..I have seen it many times with the scousers Ive met here in Dublin, in Liverpool, in other countries, the wit is so similar, so sharp.. the emotions are worn on the sleeve, and the warmth to friends and family is so strong..the old Irish songs are amazingly known by so many liverpudlians, it never ceases to amaze me..down to of course the fields of Athenry, becoming the song of the club, is brilliant.. with the tale of a starving man during the famine stealing from his opressors to feed his family, being sent on a penal ship to australia for his crimes.. it wasnt chosen just by accident in my mind the famine itself one of the reasons so many Paddys lived there..and my guesss is, stayed because they saw themselves in many ways in the scousers.. Scousers are your own people and call things as they are, and show more life .. a lot of other english simply resent that...

edit, course this is just the meandering thoughts of me, and not to presume anything on anyone elses behalf!

[Elliemental]

Yes, a disgusting '97 ' gesture, got this pic from FB, all the comments call him out for what he is, one comment says he's a City fan, but not sure that can be confirmed, unless something knows the c*nt.

City fan, for sure. The pictures came out right after we played them at the Etihad a few weeks ago.

[Elliemental]

I'm Irish myself, and there is a lot of affinity in Ireland with the scousers, my understanding is, at one stage the population of Liverpool itself was up over 20% living there were actually born in Ireland.. sure even the origin of the word scouse derives from Lobscouse the stew the food of sailors... and if that isnt the same as irish stew i dont know what is..I have seen it many times with the scousers Ive met here in Dublin, in Liverpool, in other countries, the wit is so similar, so sharp.. the emotions are worn on the sleeve, and the warmth to friends and family is so strong..the old Irish songs are amazingly known by so many liverpudlians, it never ceases to amaze me..down to of course the fields of Athenry, becoming the song of the club, is brilliant.. with the tale of a starving man during the famine stealing from his opressors to feed his family, being sent on a penal ship to australia for his crimes.. it wasnt chosen just by accident in my mind the famine itself one of the reasons so many Paddys lived there..and my guesss is, stayed because they saw themselves in many ways in the scousers.. Scousers are your own people and call things as they are, and show more life .. a lot of other english simply resent that...

I'm a Scouser born and reared but have been living in Ireland now for almost twenty years. Came over for Uni and the rest is history. Whenever I go back to England, to somewhere that's not Liverpool, people clock my accent and say "better watch the silverware/my wallet/the hubcaps". Always some shitty comment about me obviously being a thief and they genuinely find it hilarious. It's not the majority, but there's always one. Here in Ireland, people say "hey, you're from East Dublin!" Sure, there's banter from the legions of Man United supporters here, but it's nowhere near as mindless as the shit I get elsewhere.

[Barrow Shaun]

He’s saying 9 and 7….97.

A supposedly adult human being.

That is fucking evil. Sick bastard needs banning from football, at the very least.

[Crosby Nick]

Yeah he worked for our company.

Customers saw the comments, rang up to complain, some have closed accounts and taken their business elsewhere. It was shown to me by match going Utd fans and fair play to them, they were disgusted with the comments.

Imagine fucking your life up to that extent because you don’t like another football team. Absolutely nuts whenever you stop and think about what makes people do this sort of shit.

[Oldmanmick]

Imagine fucking your life up to that extent because you don’t like another football team. Absolutely nuts whenever you stop and think about what makes people do this sort of shit.

It's highly noticeable that this stuff has accentuated over recent years, which coincides with our rise to prominence once again. It's totally obvious why they're acting the way they are. They can't mock us for being shit & not winning trophies anymore, so they have to dig in the gutter to find some sort of response that will generate a reaction. They even bring up Heysel FFS, a tragedy that happened nearly 40 years ago, & one that anyone under the age of 50 will have very little recollection of, & that's if they were even alive at that time. They live in a very small, bitter, insular world & generally only communicate with those who hold similar opinions. This feeds their delusion that most people feel the same way & that everyone hates Liverpool, when the truth is we have a massive worldwide fanbase, an iconic ground that is held in the highest regard by managers & players alike, & a history that they can only dream of. But no, they're not envious at all. Not in the slightest.

Poor sods. You've got to feel so sorry them. Imagine being us.