Author Topic: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager  (Read 13118 times)

Offline E2K

  • A seriously talented
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,604
I would wish Sam Allardyce luck in his new job but for two primary reasons (aside from the fact that I’m not an England supporter or even English, although I certainly wouldn’t wish a double-whammy of Roy Hodgson followed by Sam Allardyce on those who are):

Reason #1: I have about as much respect for the man as he has shown to former Liverpool boss Rafael Benítez over the years i.e. none. It takes a very special kind of malice to dismiss the stunning, career-defining achievement of a peer winning the Champions League as “nowt to do with him” or define 5th, 3rd and 3rd as “some very poor finishes in the Premier League” that left Benítez “very lucky to be in a job” in the opening weeks of the 2007/08 season. Most of all, it was his complicity in Alex Ferguson’s attempts to rattle a surging Liverpool in April 2009 that really exemplifies the character of the new England manager. Having apparently been the subject of “dismissive”, “disrespectful”, “quite humiliating” and “unfortunate gestures” at the hands of Benítez the previous Saturday after Liverpool went 2-0 up on his Blackburn Rovers side, Allardyce, not normally known for his timidity, waited until the following Friday to draw the world’s attention to this supposed insult, no doubt prompted by his LMA cohort’s infamous “beyond the pale” ramblings earlier in the week (no wonder Ferguson is reported to have influenced his appointment as England boss, having said a few weeks ago that “with Sam’s experience, he is the obvious choice”). It would be difficult for me, as I’m sure it would be for you, to stomach seeing someone capable of such childish skulduggery achieving any meaningful level of success.

Reason #2: He doesn’t need anyone to wish him luck because, regardless of what happens over the next few years, two things are virtually certain: (a) with the England manager’s salary recently estimated to be £3.9m (the highest of the 24 coaches at Euro 2016) and the only title wins in his 25-year managerial career so far being the League of Ireland First Division with Limerick in 1992 and the Football League Third Division with Notts. County in 1998, a strong case could be made that Allardyce has already hit the jackpot; and (b) regardless of results (and they should at least be on a par with what went before given that England’s World Cup qualifying group contains Slovakia, Scotland, Slovenia, Lithuania and Malta, and the immediate frame of reference in terms of major tournaments is elimination by Costa Rica and Iceland respectively), whatever Allardyce does will be defined as success both by himself (because that’s what he does – “I would be more suited to Inter Milan or Real Madrid. It wouldn't be a problem for me to manage those clubs because I would win the double or the league every time.”) and, more importantly, by the English football media, who will absolutely love “Big Sam” in a way that the rest of us love “@TheBig_Sam”.

The nature of the England manager’s job hasn’t changed so much as the perception of the man in charge has, and Englishness has become the primary qualification in the eyes of many. The national team is still attended by a stifling level of pressure and a white-hot spotlight the equal of almost any job in world football, all the more so given the inability of the manager to simply open a wealthy owner’s chequebook and hoover up the best talent. This spotlight, however, which is largely controlled by the mainstream football media, has gradually been directed away from the dugout since Roy Hodgson took charge in May 2012 and towards the pitch. I suppose it’s understandable in a way: after 5 and a half years of Swede Sven-Göran Eriksson and just over 4 years of Italian Fabio Capello, a combined stretch of over a decade with a foreign manager at the helm broken only by the underwhelming and brief Steve McLaren era, it must have come as a blessed relief to the press to welcome Hodgson, a man once described by chief football writer at the Times Henry Winter as “brimming with anecdotes and wisdom garnered from a life in the game” and who “generously hears others’ tales”. And no doubt addressed them by their first names and asked after their families.

Allardyce, irrespective of traditional notions of success, will thrive in this new reality. Post-Ramsey and pre-Hodgson, as the 30 years of hurt developed and grew, later becoming 40 and now 50, it was traditionally the manager who suffered the media’s sticks and stones for the national team’s real and perceived failures, sometimes even when he was doing a comparatively good job. However, whether it was Bobby Robson or McLaren, Eriksson or Graham Taylor, an Englishman or a foreigner, with a glittering array of Italian, Spanish and European silverware on his CV or a single League Cup, he always suffered some meaningful degree of criticism, whether warranted or otherwise, logical or hysterical, which typically extended across his time in charge and multiplied as it went. Often it was neither fair nor even justifiable, but it was nonetheless a fact of life. The one possible exception is Terry Venables, who was in the semi-unique position (along with Alf Ramsey in 1966) of managing in a tournament on home soil, left the job after one positive campaign and was, in any case, a “proper football man” just like Hodgson and Allardyce.

There’s a very good reason why the infamous documentary on Taylor’s doomed efforts to qualify his team for the 1994 World Cup was originally titled “The Impossible Job”. It wasn’t just because Taylor and his players weren’t up to the task, which they clearly weren’t; it was because the job had long since been rendered so suffocating by the range of external forces to which it was subject that any real level of success was, in effect, unattainable. As recently as four months earlier, the manager’s face had been superimposed onto a turnip on the front page of one particular tabloid rag and the following year his wife and elderly parents would be harassed by reporters for comment on England’s 0-2 loss to the United States.

I outline all of the above as a way of contextualising just how extraordinary the media’s treatment of Hodgson as England manager was, culminating in what we saw in the days following the loss to Iceland. It was no surprise when the media largely defended him during his time at Liverpool, despite him leaving the club five points off the bottom of the table in January 2011, and continued to act as Hodgson cheerleaders despite a six-month reign which was arguably the most underwhelming and distressing of any manager in the club’s history (ok, Graeme Souness circa 15 April 1992 trumps him). These people don’t care about Liverpool Football Club, amply evidenced by the concerted attempts amongst many of them to undermine Benítez’s position over a period of several years, efforts which reached a fever pitch during the 2009/10 season as they finally had a few drops of actual blood to feed on, with Hodgson’s arrival representing the final achievement of their aims.

They do, however, claim to care about England, and so it’s a genuine source of wonder to me that so many continue to downplay his failures to the point where he hasn’t even had to revert to the archetypal bad workman and blame his tools – they’ve been doing it for him! It doesn’t take a visionary, just eyes in your head and a rudimentary knowledge of football history, to conclude that anyone other than Hodgson would have long since been broken down and crushed under the rules of engagement which normally apply to the England job, but not on this occasion. And it’s not that I would have wished the level of vitriol on Hodgson that Taylor (another “decent football man”) had to endure, but to get comparatively little, especially given that his performance as England boss was in some respects historically (and predictably) bad, is a vista as new as it is odd and one from which Allardyce is also likely to benefit.

Having taken over post-Euro 2012 qualification and achieving par at that tournament, more or less, with what had gone before, Hodgson then became the first England manager since Walter Winterbottom in 1958 to lead his team to a first-round exit at the World Cup, a span of 56 years (and at the hands of Costa Rica – at least Winterbottom was up against Lev Yashin’s Soviet Union and Pelé’s Brazil). True, unlike Taylor in 1994 they at least qualified, but that’s not an argument to set the bar very high, especially for £3.9m per annum. His last act as manager two years later was then to preside over arguably England’s worst ever international defeat against Iceland, certainly the most embarrassing since the United States beat them 1-0 in 1950, a span of 64 years and a result compounded by the ease with which France beat the same team 5-2 a few days later. 

Under normal circumstances you might have expected Hodgson to be greeted with some variation on the turnip or “wally with the brolly” motif, especially in an era where everybody seems to have Photoshop (perhaps “owl she wrote” or something to that effect). Instead, what we got was all and sundry bending over backwards to protect him. Indeed, we were hearing what would ultimately become the media’s “company line” as early as several minutes after the final whistle when Didi Hamann, working for RTÉ, went in hard on the standard of the Premier League. It seemed to escape him that, regardless of how overrated the English players may or may not be by their own media, Lars Lagerbäck and Heimir Hallgrímsson would have probably swapped body parts in exchange for a Daniel Sturridge, a Harry Kane, a Marcus Rashford, even an Eric Dier or a James Milner. I realise that this is not necessarily comparing apples with apples, but neither is effectively calling the English players shit because they’re not as technically gifted as their Spanish or German counterparts. What England, as a team, lacked in every tournament under Hodgson was organisation and comfort in their own skin, qualities that any manager worth his £3.9m-worth of salt should be able to ingrain in a squad. Lagerbäck and Hallgrímsson certainly managed it, and with far inferior resources.

Meat was then added to the bones of Hamann’s assessment the following day by his former teammate and Sky’s main football analyst (at least until trusty Hodgson lieutenant Gary Neville returns), Jamie Carragher. While he admitted that “Roy Hodgson, inevitably, carries the can…There was no way he could continue as England manager after the results and performances at Euro 2016 and he cannot escape the spotlight”, those words represented less than a tenth of his column, a fair reflection of the proportion of responsibility placed on Hodgson by the wider football establishment whose criticism of him post-Iceland has generally been buried beneath reams of words attacking the players. According to Carragher, it was these “pampered” individuals, “babies” who are “soft physically and soft mentally”, that were to blame (by the way, Nani, a player that Carragher once reduced to tears during a game, left France earlier this month with a winners’ medal). For good measure, Henry Winter then wrote an article on 30 June with a headline that trumpeted: “England must stop cocooning spoilt players to succeed”. And earlier this month, Steve Bruce offered a withering assessment of the way the “players arrive, tracksuits, washbags, headphones, in their own world”, as if their German counterparts don’t have iPods or hair gel and as if it matters anyway.

Even those who did criticise Hodgson, like Paul Hayward on 28 June, framed that criticism in such a way as to avoid asking whether the methods which “have translated from Halmstad to Malmo to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax to the Swiss national team” (generally accepted to represent the “safe” appointment back in 2012) had ever qualified him for this job any more than they had for Liverpool. According to Hayward, Hodgson “seemed to have a mid-life crisis at this tournament” (he’s 68, for crying out loud), “turned against his basic ideas about football management” and that’s why it all went pear-shaped. We can only assume that he did similar at the World Cup, then? And if so, does this not beg the question as to where the cacophony of voices was demanding he step aside after his team finished bottom of a group containing Costa Rica? No, instead you had the likes of Winter back in the summer of 2014 arguing that Hodgson was “playing poker with a limited hand against veteran card-sharks” and that “lapses by individual players” were to blame.

Nothing will change as far as Allardyce goes. All the FA have done here is swap those aforementioned methods which “have translated from Halmstad to Malmo to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax to the Swiss national team” to those which have thus far translated only from Limerick to Blackpool to Notts. County to Bolton to Sunderland (but not so comfortably to Newcastle). The pattern is repeating and, once again, nobody in the mainstream media is raising so much as an eyebrow of surprise or disappointment. After all, Allardyce’s press-conferences will probably be interesting, there’ll be plenty of copy for the media, he’ll no doubt even call them by their first names and do it in a Dudley accent, and isn’t that what truly matters? His team will swat Slovakia, Scotland, Slovenia, Lithuania and Malta aside, and even if they do go out early in two years' time, could it really be any worse than losing to Iceland?

I’ve never been a lover of the England national team or the bullshit surrounding it, but I grew up to a large degree on English culture and I have a lot of time for English people generally. That’s why the saddest part of this is that, in a way, the appointment of Allardyce is so perfectly in keeping with what’s been happening in a wider context. Back at the end of June, it somehow seemed fitting when an England team paralysed by old ideas and beset by empty-headed voices on all sides crashed out of Europe just four days after the country did similar, following a referendum campaign that was won to a large degree by inviting people to look backwards. And while I wouldn’t insult anybody’s intelligence by claiming that any of them speak for anyone here, there have been a number of people involved in the game queuing up to be its version of Nigel Frottage over the past month. Richard “did you smash it?” Keyes’ summation of Allardyce’s imminent appointment this week, for example, captured much of what is increasingly rotten in both English football specifically and English society in general: “Big Sam is the man then! Excellent. Now we can get our game back – re-discover our English DNA. Be English – not whatever is fashionable.” First the country reclaimed, now the game – what a run the English are on.

You see that, and then you read Steve Bruce, apparently an outside contender for the job himself, say that “We've got to get that English spirit back. It’s what we're about, what we’re famous for.”, and it makes you wonder what hope the game in England has now. The single most important thing that could have happened for the English national team in the short-term after Hodgson’s resignation was for the FA to withstand those same dark impulses for self-immolation which gripped the nation during the referendum vote, driven by similarly vacuous voices peddling predictable empty chatter and easy answers. Voices like those of former England captains Paul Ince, Alan Shearer and Rio Ferdinand, all of whom are now paid handsomely for the simple act of opening their mouths, who immediately backed Glenn Hoddle’s candidacy for the England role, Glenn Hoddle, whose managerial efforts have resulted in the sum total of one League Cup runners-up spot, the Tournoi de France and the undying outrage of both the disabled community and decent people everywhere, as well as a Hodgson-esque sub-40% win ratio.

What the FA have done, in the end, is give in to unreason, appointing a manager with one season’s experience of European competition, who has never managed in the Champions League or won a major trophy in 25 years, and now they’re no doubt sitting back and nodding smugly while those same voices make the case for “Big Sam” based largely on nationality and a weak “but Chris Coleman, Wales…” logic. Right – and Lars Lagerbäck, Iceland… Jorge Luis Pinto, Costa Rica…who else? By that logic, Martin O’Neill’s Republic of Ireland should be regarded as a shining light in the corridors of the FA given that they gave France a game with mostly Premier League reserves and Championship players – hell, maybe they are considering Allardyce is the FA’s choice, but they shouldn’t be. What can be achieved with Hal Robson-Kanu or Jón Daði Böðvarsson or Jeff Hendrick and what can be achieved with the players at England’s disposal are, and should always be considered, two very different things.

Carragher also bemoaned England’s naivety in his aforementioned column, saying of Italy specifically that “they are streetwise, they know how to deal with situations. Their defenders mark you so tight at set-pieces that it feels as if they are in your boots. They give cute fouls away. They know how to win.” It’s a fair point, and arguably the most streetwise team of them all, Portugal, have just won the European Championship, yet it begs the question: is Allardyce really the coach to instil that? A man who once said of foreign players that “They make a big fuss about it and that’s what they do. That’s mostly foreign players, they do make a big fuss of it. That’s in their nature.”, before going on to proudly state that “they react in a more volatile way to incidents like that than we do.”?  It’s an especially scary prospect given that FA chief-executive Martin Glenn recently suggested that “I want someone to come in to the England role to really work with not just the senior team but to make sure all the great work with the under-16s, 17s, 18s…to knit all that together” and to “make sure all the development teams are laddering up to something more effective.”.

Speaking of Glenn: he recently made the point that “the British press, like it or not, are probably the most intensely passionate about the game in the world and that has a spill over effect. The consequence of which is people probably play not to make a mistake, as opposed to play to win.”. Perhaps now we’re getting somewhere. After all, has one of the media’s highest profile number, Henry Winter, not previously admitted the following: “The players run out there with the white shirt weighing heavily on them. They worry about the critical headlines if they slip up, the sort of media storm that blew around Rob Green and his family after his mistake against the United States at the 2010 World Cup. One player confided to me that all he could think about in the tunnel before kick-off was what rating he might get in the next day’s papers…He hadn’t even kicked a ball and he was already concerned about the post-match fall-out.”.

Well it was Winter’s profession, if not Winter himself, who tormented Green after that game against the United States, Paul Robinson and Scott Carson against Croatia, David Beckham against Argentina, Gareth Southgate, Stuart Pearce and Chris Waddle against Germany and, back when it was fashionable to criticise the manager, put the likes of Robson, Taylor, Eriksson and McLaren through as much hell as it’s possible to put a football manager. It’s utterly fucking lamentable to see one of them recognise that his own profession is a massive part of the problem, type it out, look at it, maybe proof-read it a couple of times and then go on his merry way without a care in the world, later publishing an article under the headline “England must stop cocooning spoilt players to succeed”.

Martin Glenn might not be a football expert, as he admits himself, but he does see that England’s players “play not to make a mistake, as opposed to play to win”. My solution would involve finding a way to remove the team from the 24/7 media shitstorm that surrounds England, but Glenn and his colleagues have devised a more unfortunate one. To hire a manager who plays percentage football designed to take as much risk out of the game as humanly possible, presumably so that the players don’t have to worry about mistakes anymore – “if in doubt, put it out” or “launch it”, right? Perhaps England fans will yet see a modern version of Jack Charlton’s Ireland team circa late-1980’s when, blessed with players of the calibre of Liverpool’s John Aldridge, Ray Houghton, Mark Lawrenson and Ronnie Whelan, former Arsenal and Juventus legend Liam Brady (albeit coming towards the end of his career), Manchester United’s Paul McGrath and Kevin Moran, and Arsenal’s David O’Leary, he implemented a style of play based largely on long balls to Tony Cascarino or Niall Quinn (Andy Carroll anyone?), balls in behind the opposition full-backs to Aldridge which meant that the most prolific centre-forward in English football didn’t break his international duck for 4 years, and stuck arguably the country’s greatest ever centre-back (McGrath) in midfield for a few years to accommodate Mick McCarthy. It’s just a pity that Chris Samba plays for Congo.

Hey, it might work, at least to the extent that such an approach may well have secured a win against Iceland. Beyond that, though, Allardyce, unless he possesses the kind of hitherto untapped levels of managerial ability that he once claimed make him equipped for the Real Madrid job, is unlikely to have enough tactical acumen or experience at the highest level, or be “streetwise” enough to use Carragher’s word, to improve substantially on what his predecessor did, namely qualify for a major tournament and then preside over an early exit once he gets there. In the meantime a squad of players which, on paper, is every bit the equal of its Italian counterpart that reached the quarter-final of Euro 2016 and ran Germany desperately close, with a centre-forward who often lost out to Shane Long at club level last season (Pelle) and a player that “Big Sam” himself has recently sold from Sunderland (Giaccherini) leading their attack, will continue to labour when the pressure comes on. Allardyce’s appointment won’t change that, all it will do is satisfy the media’s craving for an English manager.

I certainly don’t agree with the view that these English players are “soft”, a word which, to me, has certain connotations not a million (or even a handful of) miles removed from the same kind of rhetoric that drove Brexit. Not that I’m accusing Carragher of parroting that nonsense, although his apparent derision at the idea of football academies does carry an unfortunately backwards undertone. He’s simply misguided, like so many others, and sometimes that can be just as bad. It just feels like the same inward-looking, nostalgic, harking back to the “good old days” of Terry Butcher’s bloody bandage and ‘Psycho’ Pearce acting the, well, psycho after that penalty against Spain, that tackle by Moore or when Lineker scored, Bobby belting the ball…ugh, I’ll stop that before I get sick…bullshit that reduces everything to black or white, hard or soft, in or out.

The sensible, and brave, decision was to avoid that kind of rhetoric like the plague. It’s what got Hodgson the job in the first place and prompted possibly the worst piece of writing I’ve ever seen from an English football journalist (whose surname wasn’t Samuel and first name wasn’t Martin) in June when one of them, Michael Henderson, stated that: “When Raheem Sterling retires at night in his £3 million fortress in Prestbury, the Cheshire village which serves as a barracks for the Manchester light infantry, it’s a fair bet he doesn’t mug up on the literature of Latin America. It would be interesting to know whether he has actually read a book at all.”

There’s a bizarrely poisonous couple of sentences for you, a relatively short time removed from another journalist, Jeff Powell, interpreting Sterling’s fatigue prior to a European Championship qualifier in Estonia as “a player who had announced himself too tired to give his all for his country” and suggesting that “it is worth drawing to Master Sterling’s attention that younger men than he fight and die for this country.” Later on in his reign, the England manager himself said of Daniel Sturridge, another of England’s best and brightest talents, that “it was important for me to test his resolve a little bit…and I am delighted he did get out there, even though he maybe didn't feel 100 per cent, because that means in future I will know I can trust him as an England player and he is not going to be playing when he feels like it”. So, to summarise: Sterling is illiterate, or at least uninterested in Latin American literature, and possibly unworthy of living near the Manchester light infantry (because why else mention it?), while Sturridge is simply lazy and untrustworthy.

These are two players that Brendan Rodgers, who will likely never become a top manager, used to good effect in ransacking the Premier League a few seasons back, something which, even if you were inclined to agree with Hamann’s Iceland post-game comments, shows how effective the duo can be. Allardyce, if he has any sense, should be looking to build his team around them. At the very least, one can bend stunners in with the outside of his boot in the Europa League finals and the other has pace to burn, a key attribute given the importance of getting to the line and around the back of defenders who may very well be hitting and hurting you, wise words from another former Liverpool and “England man” a couple of years before he started being mercilessly booed by his own fans for no apparent reason, possibly because they thought he was lazy, untrustworthy and uninterested in the works of Pablo Neruda. And quite possibly “soft”.

This is the point to which England is wilfully regressing.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 10:00:34 am by E2K »
Twitter: @e2klassic
Blog: theredstar.home.blog

Offline driftinwest

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,033
  • You'll Never Walk Alone.
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2016, 11:30:06 am »
What a post E2K it took a while to read but it was worth it.
My own opinion is well what has he done to prove he has the quality to manage an England team ? Well he hasn't has he, he's just a self opinionated oath. Someone better tell him he needs a passport to manage an International team he may have forgot you have to leave the country for return legs.
If my assistant had not signalled a goal, I would have given a penalty and sent off goalkeeper Patr Cheh. he beeped me to signal the foul. The noise from the crowd  stopped me hearing it, I have been involved at places like Barcelona, Ibrox, Old Trafford, Arsenal, but I've never in my life been involved in such an atmosphere. IT WAS INCREDIBLE

Online Crosby Nick

  • He was super funny. Used to do these super hilarious puns
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 111,903
  • Poultry in Motion
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2016, 11:31:57 am »
Sam Allardyce strikes as one of those people that eats a Swiss roll like everybody else eats a baguette.

:D

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2016, 09:36:15 pm »


What-a-post!!!

I have to say that I couldn't imagine a post like that in this thread. Taking the entire topic seriously HAS to take a comical turn at some point when looking at the English football federation and how they make the most possible effort turning english football into a joke.

There could be a million things said about your post, strangely your post is that good that it even brings out positives in this madness... the passion of the english for football, the stubborness when it comes to tradition, the pure approach without overthinking which comes across pretty strange when thinking of how football works these days.... You think of some simple twist and turns which could change a lot pretty quickly for something better... winter break, simple game plan for bringing the best out of the talent still there...

...but then again you realise...it's Allardyce....Fat Sam, what a nickname for a man representing the biggest football nation for it's tradition and league.

How low can you get as a big football nation?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 10:26:18 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline b_joseph

  • b_jesus, b_mary, b_joseph and the wee b_donkey. Unloyal gloryhunter who was probably Kelly Osbourne in another life.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,608
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2016, 10:18:35 pm »
..
A new section should be made just containing this post...Amazing work. Literally nothing else needs to be added to what you said.

Offline L666KOP

  • Wants everyone to fuck off. Especially you. Yes YOU! Too Tender for Tinder. Would swallow his knob on a genuine fuck up.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,116
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2016, 10:22:54 pm »
There's a reason I seek out posts by E2K.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline JCB

  • Sponsors of Digger Barnes.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,021
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 01:36:02 am »
Beautiful post. E2K, once again, writes a piece that is worthy of being published in the best newspapers in the country!!!

I wish I could write with such elegance and verbosity but sadly I don't have his talent. I do have one "quibble" with it tough and I don't mean to criticize it just for the sake of it so I apologize in advance....I could be wrong in stating this, but I do believe that the general narrative - i.e. that the pressure imposed on the England team by the fans and press impacts England's chances - is just, at the end of it all, an excuse to justify the team's failures. The media's negative impact has been peddled around for so many years that most of us have generally accepted it as fact and maybe there is a slight truth to it but I don't believe that it is any worse here than elsewhere.

Every team that represents their country be it in, friendlies, qualifiers or major tournaments face the same vitriol from their respective media organisations back home. And all the players have to contend with the same pressures that the England team suffer. I remember reading how the Italian press were scathing of their national team and their prospects before the Euro's kicked off. And look how well they managed.

Regardless, the article is a brilliant read.
Now....on a less serious note and getting this thread back on track.

Fat Sam: England Manager   :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

  • Apologies if I haven't responded to every post in every thread yet, I'm trying hard. farKnow.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,685
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2016, 01:47:05 am »
English FA never learns, reap what you sow.

Offline Ken-Obi

  • Hasn't got Wan, doesn't deserve Wan
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,183
  • Super Title: isn't going to get one of these either
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 04:41:47 am »
Earpieces to make a comeback?

Someone should do the right thing - go back in time to 1992 and destroy the codes to Championship Manager before it is ever released

Offline Hij

  • Literally Custom-titlely neglected for literally over a decade, Ruud.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,025
  • Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97.
    • Grime Forum
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 04:57:46 am »
I would wish Sam Allardyce luck in his new job but for two primary reasons (aside from the fact that I’m not an England supporter or even English, although I certainly wouldn’t wish a double-whammy of Roy Hodgson followed by Sam Allardyce on those who are):

Reason #1: I have about as much respect for the man as he has shown to former Liverpool boss Rafael Benítez over the years i.e. none. It takes a very special kind of malice to dismiss the stunning, career-defining achievement of a peer winning the Champions League as “nowt to do with him” or define 5th, 3rd and 3rd as “some very poor finishes in the Premier League” that left Benítez “very lucky to be in a job” in the opening weeks of the 2007/08 season. Most of all, it was his complicity in Alex Ferguson’s attempts to rattle a surging Liverpool in April 2009 that really exemplifies the character of the new England manager. Having apparently been the subject of “dismissive”, “disrespectful”, “quite humiliating” and “unfortunate gestures” at the hands of Benítez the previous Saturday after Liverpool went 2-0 up on his Blackburn Rovers side, Allardyce, not normally known for his timidity, waited until the following Friday to draw the world’s attention to this supposed insult, no doubt prompted by his LMA cohort’s infamous “beyond the pale” ramblings earlier in the week (no wonder Ferguson is reported to have influenced his appointment as England boss, having said a few weeks ago that “with Sam’s experience, he is the obvious choice”). It would be difficult for me, as I’m sure it would be for you, to stomach seeing someone capable of such childish skulduggery achieving any meaningful level of success.

Reason #2: He doesn’t need anyone to wish him luck because, regardless of what happens over the next few years, two things are virtually certain: (a) with the England manager’s salary recently estimated to be £3.9m (the highest of the 24 coaches at Euro 2016) and the only title wins in his 25-year managerial career so far being the League of Ireland First Division with Limerick in 1992 and the Football League Third Division with Notts. County in 1998, a strong case could be made that Allardyce has already hit the jackpot; and (b) regardless of results (and they should at least be on a par with what went before given that England’s World Cup qualifying group contains Slovakia, Scotland, Slovenia, Lithuania and Malta, and the immediate frame of reference in terms of major tournaments is elimination by Costa Rica and Iceland respectively), whatever Allardyce does will be defined as success both by himself (because that’s what he does – “I would be more suited to Inter Milan or Real Madrid. It wouldn't be a problem for me to manage those clubs because I would win the double or the league every time.”) and, more importantly, by the English football media, who will absolutely love “Big Sam” in a way that the rest of us love “@TheBig_Sam”.

The nature of the England manager’s job hasn’t changed so much as the perception of the man in charge has, and Englishness has become the primary qualification in the eyes of many. The national team is still attended by a stifling level of pressure and a white-hot spotlight the equal of almost any job in world football, all the more so given the inability of the manager to simply open a wealthy owner’s chequebook and hoover up the best talent. This spotlight, however, which is largely controlled by the mainstream football media, has gradually been directed away from the dugout since Roy Hodgson took charge in May 2012 and towards the pitch. I suppose it’s understandable in a way: after 5 and a half years of Swede Sven-Göran Eriksson and just over 4 years of Italian Fabio Capello, a combined stretch of over a decade with a foreign manager at the helm broken only by the underwhelming and brief Steve McLaren era, it must have come as a blessed relief to the press to welcome Hodgson, a man once described by chief football writer at the Times Henry Winter as “brimming with anecdotes and wisdom garnered from a life in the game” and who “generously hears others’ tales”. And no doubt addressed them by their first names and asked after their families.

Allardyce, irrespective of traditional notions of success, will thrive in this new reality. Post-Ramsey and pre-Hodgson, as the 30 years of hurt developed and grew, later becoming 40 and now 50, it was traditionally the manager who suffered the media’s sticks and stones for the national team’s real and perceived failures, sometimes even when he was doing a comparatively good job. However, whether it was Bobby Robson or McLaren, Eriksson or Graham Taylor, an Englishman or a foreigner, with a glittering array of Italian, Spanish and European silverware on his CV or a single League Cup, he always suffered some meaningful degree of criticism, whether warranted or otherwise, logical or hysterical, which typically extended across his time in charge and multiplied as it went. Often it was neither fair nor even justifiable, but it was nonetheless a fact of life. The one possible exception is Terry Venables, who was in the semi-unique position (along with Alf Ramsey in 1966) of managing in a tournament on home soil, left the job after one positive campaign and was, in any case, a “proper football man” just like Hodgson and Allardyce.

There’s a very good reason why the infamous documentary on Taylor’s doomed efforts to qualify his team for the 1994 World Cup was originally titled “The Impossible Job”. It wasn’t just because Taylor and his players weren’t up to the task, which they clearly weren’t; it was because the job had long since been rendered so suffocating by the range of external forces to which it was subject that any real level of success was, in effect, unattainable. As recently as four months earlier, the manager’s face had been superimposed onto a turnip on the front page of one particular tabloid rag and the following year his wife and elderly parents would be harassed by reporters for comment on England’s 0-2 loss to the United States.

I outline all of the above as a way of contextualising just how extraordinary the media’s treatment of Hodgson as England manager was, culminating in what we saw in the days following the loss to Iceland. It was no surprise when the media largely defended him during his time at Liverpool, despite him leaving the club five points off the bottom of the table in January 2011, and continued to act as Hodgson cheerleaders despite a six-month reign which was arguably the most underwhelming and distressing of any manager in the club’s history (ok, Graeme Souness circa 15 April 1992 trumps him). These people don’t care about Liverpool Football Club, amply evidenced by the concerted attempts amongst many of them to undermine Benítez’s position over a period of several years, efforts which reached a fever pitch during the 2009/10 season as they finally had a few drops of actual blood to feed on, with Hodgson’s arrival representing the final achievement of their aims.

They do, however, claim to care about England, and so it’s a genuine source of wonder to me that so many continue to downplay his failures to the point where he hasn’t even had to revert to the archetypal bad workman and blame his tools – they’ve been doing it for him! It doesn’t take a visionary, just eyes in your head and a rudimentary knowledge of football history, to conclude that anyone other than Hodgson would have long since been broken down and crushed under the rules of engagement which normally apply to the England job, but not on this occasion. And it’s not that I would have wished the level of vitriol on Hodgson that Taylor (another “decent football man”) had to endure, but to get comparatively little, especially given that his performance as England boss was in some respects historically (and predictably) bad, is a vista as new as it is odd and one from which Allardyce is also likely to benefit.

Having taken over post-Euro 2012 qualification and achieving par at that tournament, more or less, with what had gone before, Hodgson then became the first England manager since Walter Winterbottom in 1958 to lead his team to a first-round exit at the World Cup, a span of 56 years (and at the hands of Costa Rica – at least Winterbottom was up against Lev Yashin’s Soviet Union and Pelé’s Brazil). True, unlike Taylor in 1994 they at least qualified, but that’s not an argument to set the bar very high, especially for £3.9m per annum. His last act as manager two years later was then to preside over arguably England’s worst ever international defeat against Iceland, certainly the most embarrassing since the United States beat them 1-0 in 1950, a span of 64 years and a result compounded by the ease with which France beat the same team 5-2 a few days later. 

Under normal circumstances you might have expected Hodgson to be greeted with some variation on the turnip or “wally with the brolly” motif, especially in an era where everybody seems to have Photoshop (perhaps “owl she wrote” or something to that effect). Instead, what we got was all and sundry bending over backwards to protect him. Indeed, we were hearing what would ultimately become the media’s “company line” as early as several minutes after the final whistle when Didi Hamann, working for RTÉ, went in hard on the standard of the Premier League. It seemed to escape him that, regardless of how overrated the English players may or may not be by their own media, Lars Lagerbäck and Heimir Hallgrímsson would have probably swapped body parts in exchange for a Daniel Sturridge, a Harry Kane, a Marcus Rashford, even an Eric Dier or a James Milner. I realise that this is not necessarily comparing apples with apples, but neither is effectively calling the English players shit because they’re not as technically gifted as their Spanish or German counterparts. What England, as a team, lacked in every tournament under Hodgson was organisation and comfort in their own skin, qualities that any manager worth his £3.9m-worth of salt should be able to ingrain in a squad. Lagerbäck and Hallgrímsson certainly managed it, and with far inferior resources.

Meat was then added to the bones of Hamann’s assessment the following day by his former teammate and Sky’s main football analyst (at least until trusty Hodgson lieutenant Gary Neville returns), Jamie Carragher. While he admitted that “Roy Hodgson, inevitably, carries the can…There was no way he could continue as England manager after the results and performances at Euro 2016 and he cannot escape the spotlight”, those words represented less than a tenth of his column, a fair reflection of the proportion of responsibility placed on Hodgson by the wider football establishment whose criticism of him post-Iceland has generally been buried beneath reams of words attacking the players. According to Carragher, it was these “pampered” individuals, “babies” who are “soft physically and soft mentally”, that were to blame (by the way, Nani, a player that Carragher once reduced to tears during a game, left France earlier this month with a winners’ medal). For good measure, Henry Winter then wrote an article on 30 June with a headline that trumpeted: “England must stop cocooning spoilt players to succeed”. And earlier this month, Steve Bruce offered a withering assessment of the way the “players arrive, tracksuits, washbags, headphones, in their own world”, as if their German counterparts don’t have iPods or hair gel and as if it matters anyway.

Even those who did criticise Hodgson, like Paul Hayward on 28 June, framed that criticism in such a way as to avoid asking whether the methods which “have translated from Halmstad to Malmo to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax to the Swiss national team” (generally accepted to represent the “safe” appointment back in 2012) had ever qualified him for this job any more than they had for Liverpool. According to Hayward, Hodgson “seemed to have a mid-life crisis at this tournament” (he’s 68, for crying out loud), “turned against his basic ideas about football management” and that’s why it all went pear-shaped. We can only assume that he did similar at the World Cup, then? And if so, does this not beg the question as to where the cacophony of voices was demanding he step aside after his team finished bottom of a group containing Costa Rica? No, instead you had the likes of Winter back in the summer of 2014 arguing that Hodgson was “playing poker with a limited hand against veteran card-sharks” and that “lapses by individual players” were to blame.

Nothing will change as far as Allardyce goes. All the FA have done here is swap those aforementioned methods which “have translated from Halmstad to Malmo to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax to the Swiss national team” to those which have thus far translated only from Limerick to Blackpool to Notts. County to Bolton to Sunderland (but not so comfortably to Newcastle). The pattern is repeating and, once again, nobody in the mainstream media is raising so much as an eyebrow of surprise or disappointment. After all, Allardyce’s press-conferences will probably be interesting, there’ll be plenty of copy for the media, he’ll no doubt even call them by their first names and do it in a Dudley accent, and isn’t that what truly matters? His team will swat Slovakia, Scotland, Slovenia, Lithuania and Malta aside, and even if they do go out early in two years' time, could it really be any worse than losing to Iceland?

I’ve never been a lover of the England national team or the bullshit surrounding it, but I grew up to a large degree on English culture and I have a lot of time for English people generally. That’s why the saddest part of this is that, in a way, the appointment of Allardyce is so perfectly in keeping with what’s been happening in a wider context. Back at the end of June, it somehow seemed fitting when an England team paralysed by old ideas and beset by empty-headed voices on all sides crashed out of Europe just four days after the country did similar, following a referendum campaign that was won to a large degree by inviting people to look backwards. And while I wouldn’t insult anybody’s intelligence by claiming that any of them speak for anyone here, there have been a number of people involved in the game queuing up to be its version of Nigel Frottage over the past month. Richard “did you smash it?” Keyes’ summation of Allardyce’s imminent appointment this week, for example, captured much of what is increasingly rotten in both English football specifically and English society in general: “Big Sam is the man then! Excellent. Now we can get our game back – re-discover our English DNA. Be English – not whatever is fashionable.” First the country reclaimed, now the game – what a run the English are on.

You see that, and then you read Steve Bruce, apparently an outside contender for the job himself, say that “We've got to get that English spirit back. It’s what we're about, what we’re famous for.”, and it makes you wonder what hope the game in England has now. The single most important thing that could have happened for the English national team in the short-term after Hodgson’s resignation was for the FA to withstand those same dark impulses for self-immolation which gripped the nation during the referendum vote, driven by similarly vacuous voices peddling predictable empty chatter and easy answers. Voices like those of former England captains Paul Ince, Alan Shearer and Rio Ferdinand, all of whom are now paid handsomely for the simple act of opening their mouths, who immediately backed Glenn Hoddle’s candidacy for the England role, Glenn Hoddle, whose managerial efforts have resulted in the sum total of one League Cup runners-up spot, the Tournoi de France and the undying outrage of both the disabled community and decent people everywhere, as well as a Hodgson-esque sub-40% win ratio.

What the FA have done, in the end, is give in to unreason, appointing a manager with one season’s experience of European competition, who has never managed in the Champions League or won a major trophy in 25 years, and now they’re no doubt sitting back and nodding smugly while those same voices make the case for “Big Sam” based largely on nationality and a weak “but Chris Coleman, Wales…” logic. Right – and Lars Lagerbäck, Iceland… Jorge Luis Pinto, Costa Rica…who else? By that logic, Martin O’Neill’s Republic of Ireland should be regarded as a shining light in the corridors of the FA given that they gave France a game with mostly Premier League reserves and Championship players – hell, maybe they are considering Allardyce is the FA’s choice, but they shouldn’t be. What can be achieved with Hal Robson-Kanu or Jón Daði Böðvarsson or Jeff Hendrick and what can be achieved with the players at England’s disposal are, and should always be considered, two very different things.

Carragher also bemoaned England’s naivety in his aforementioned column, saying of Italy specifically that “they are streetwise, they know how to deal with situations. Their defenders mark you so tight at set-pieces that it feels as if they are in your boots. They give cute fouls away. They know how to win.” It’s a fair point, and arguably the most streetwise team of them all, Portugal, have just won the European Championship, yet it begs the question: is Allardyce really the coach to instil that? A man who once said of foreign players that “They make a big fuss about it and that’s what they do. That’s mostly foreign players, they do make a big fuss of it. That’s in their nature.”, before going on to proudly state that “they react in a more volatile way to incidents like that than we do.”?  It’s an especially scary prospect given that FA chief-executive Martin Glenn recently suggested that “I want someone to come in to the England role to really work with not just the senior team but to make sure all the great work with the under-16s, 17s, 18s…to knit all that together” and to “make sure all the development teams are laddering up to something more effective.”.

Speaking of Glenn: he recently made the point that “the British press, like it or not, are probably the most intensely passionate about the game in the world and that has a spill over effect. The consequence of which is people probably play not to make a mistake, as opposed to play to win.”. Perhaps now we’re getting somewhere. After all, has one of the media’s highest profile number, Henry Winter, not previously admitted the following: “The players run out there with the white shirt weighing heavily on them. They worry about the critical headlines if they slip up, the sort of media storm that blew around Rob Green and his family after his mistake against the United States at the 2010 World Cup. One player confided to me that all he could think about in the tunnel before kick-off was what rating he might get in the next day’s papers…He hadn’t even kicked a ball and he was already concerned about the post-match fall-out.”.

Well it was Winter’s profession, if not Winter himself, who tormented Green after that game against the United States, Paul Robinson and Scott Carson against Croatia, David Beckham against Argentina, Gareth Southgate, Stuart Pearce and Chris Waddle against Germany and, back when it was fashionable to criticise the manager, put the likes of Robson, Taylor, Eriksson and McLaren through as much hell as it’s possible to put a football manager. It’s utterly fucking lamentable to see one of them recognise that his own profession is a massive part of the problem, type it out, look at it, maybe proof-read it a couple of times and then go on his merry way without a care in the world, later publishing an article under the headline “England must stop cocooning spoilt players to succeed”.

Martin Glenn might not be a football expert, as he admits himself, but he does see that England’s players “play not to make a mistake, as opposed to play to win”. My solution would involve finding a way to remove the team from the 24/7 media shitstorm that surrounds England, but Glenn and his colleagues have devised a more unfortunate one. To hire a manager who plays percentage football designed to take as much risk out of the game as humanly possible, presumably so that the players don’t have to worry about mistakes anymore – “if in doubt, put it out” or “launch it”, right? Perhaps England fans will yet see a modern version of Jack Charlton’s Ireland team circa late-1980’s when, blessed with players of the calibre of Liverpool’s John Aldridge, Ray Houghton, Mark Lawrenson and Ronnie Whelan, former Arsenal and Juventus legend Liam Brady (albeit coming towards the end of his career), Manchester United’s Paul McGrath and Kevin Moran, and Arsenal’s David O’Leary, he implemented a style of play based largely on long balls to Tony Cascarino or Niall Quinn (Andy Carroll anyone?), balls in behind the opposition full-backs to Aldridge which meant that the most prolific centre-forward in English football didn’t break his international duck for 4 years, and stuck arguably the country’s greatest ever centre-back (McGrath) in midfield for a few years to accommodate Mick McCarthy. It’s just a pity that Chris Samba plays for Congo.

Hey, it might work, at least to the extent that such an approach may well have secured a win against Iceland. Beyond that, though, Allardyce, unless he possesses the kind of hitherto untapped levels of managerial ability that he once claimed make him equipped for the Real Madrid job, is unlikely to have enough tactical acumen or experience at the highest level, or be “streetwise” enough to use Carragher’s word, to improve substantially on what his predecessor did, namely qualify for a major tournament and then preside over an early exit once he gets there. In the meantime a squad of players which, on paper, is every bit the equal of its Italian counterpart that reached the quarter-final of Euro 2016 and ran Germany desperately close, with a centre-forward who often lost out to Shane Long at club level last season (Pelle) and a player that “Big Sam” himself has recently sold from Sunderland (Giaccherini) leading their attack, will continue to labour when the pressure comes on. Allardyce’s appointment won’t change that, all it will do is satisfy the media’s craving for an English manager.

I certainly don’t agree with the view that these English players are “soft”, a word which, to me, has certain connotations not a million (or even a handful of) miles removed from the same kind of rhetoric that drove Brexit. Not that I’m accusing Carragher of parroting that nonsense, although his apparent derision at the idea of football academies does carry an unfortunately backwards undertone. He’s simply misguided, like so many others, and sometimes that can be just as bad. It just feels like the same inward-looking, nostalgic, harking back to the “good old days” of Terry Butcher’s bloody bandage and ‘Psycho’ Pearce acting the, well, psycho after that penalty against Spain, that tackle by Moore or when Lineker scored, Bobby belting the ball…ugh, I’ll stop that before I get sick…bullshit that reduces everything to black or white, hard or soft, in or out.

The sensible, and brave, decision was to avoid that kind of rhetoric like the plague. It’s what got Hodgson the job in the first place and prompted possibly the worst piece of writing I’ve ever seen from an English football journalist (whose surname wasn’t Samuel and first name wasn’t Martin) in June when one of them, Michael Henderson, stated that: “When Raheem Sterling retires at night in his £3 million fortress in Prestbury, the Cheshire village which serves as a barracks for the Manchester light infantry, it’s a fair bet he doesn’t mug up on the literature of Latin America. It would be interesting to know whether he has actually read a book at all.”

There’s a bizarrely poisonous couple of sentences for you, a relatively short time removed from another journalist, Jeff Powell, interpreting Sterling’s fatigue prior to a European Championship qualifier in Estonia as “a player who had announced himself too tired to give his all for his country” and suggesting that “it is worth drawing to Master Sterling’s attention that younger men than he fight and die for this country.” Later on in his reign, the England manager himself said of Daniel Sturridge, another of England’s best and brightest talents, that “it was important for me to test his resolve a little bit…and I am delighted he did get out there, even though he maybe didn't feel 100 per cent, because that means in future I will know I can trust him as an England player and he is not going to be playing when he feels like it”. So, to summarise: Sterling is illiterate, or at least uninterested in Latin American literature, and possibly unworthy of living near the Manchester light infantry (because why else mention it?), while Sturridge is simply lazy and untrustworthy.

These are two players that Brendan Rodgers, who will likely never become a top manager, used to good effect in ransacking the Premier League a few seasons back, something which, even if you were inclined to agree with Hamann’s Iceland post-game comments, shows how effective the duo can be. Allardyce, if he has any sense, should be looking to build his team around them. At the very least, one can bend stunners in with the outside of his boot in the Europa League finals and the other has pace to burn, a key attribute given the importance of getting to the line and around the back of defenders who may very well be hitting and hurting you, wise words from another former Liverpool and “England man” a couple of years before he started being mercilessly booed by his own fans for no apparent reason, possibly because they thought he was lazy, untrustworthy and uninterested in the works of Pablo Neruda. And quite possibly “soft”.

This is the point to which England is wilfully regressing.

Please stick around. We're really fortunate to get some of your longer posts when you put them together, always fab.

Having said that, over time I've grown to hate him less, maybe it's the parody twitter accounts doing.
Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97. Justice for the Survivors.

Istanbul 2005. Athens 2007. Basel 2016. Kiev 2018. Madrid 2019. Paris 2022.

Offline jason67

  • He likes the 15cm morning glory boy!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,917
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 05:26:28 am »
Another superb post again E2K.
At last the TRUTH 26th April 2016

Still don't buy the s*n.

Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

  • surgood. As good as Suarez but CBA to play for us. Takes it on the chin and never holds a pointless grudge for several months.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,216
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2016, 10:39:46 am »
Allardyce is a very competent manager. England may actually be competitive in the knockouts under him.

Great read from E2K as usual. Just touching on the point about national expectation and pressure: as far as psychotic, unrelenting, often poisonous coverage goes, I would put the Italian media comfortably ahead.

Offline The Gulleysucker

  • RAWK's very own spinached up Popeye. Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Remembers
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,496
  • An Indolent Sybarite
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2016, 10:55:11 am »


Absolutely superb high quality post that mate, thank you.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline GBF

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,035
  • The only religion with a God that you can touch!
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2016, 12:01:04 pm »
I think he can be much better than the recent garbage England had as managers.  If not, he'll be a laugh!
01111001 01101111 01110101 00100111 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110111 01100001 01101100 01101011 00100000 01100001 01101100 01101111 01101110 01100101

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 94,256
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2016, 12:04:26 pm »
What is so sad is that England have some really really good players.

Their squad would be the envy of most other countries at Euro 2016.

We have players with great technique (which we always moaned about in the 90s).

Why do we have such poor coaching?  Why are there so few top British coaches?  A huge issue that the FA has never properly addressed.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline goalrushatgoodison

  • crapinbed
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,317
  • Still waiting for the great leap forward.
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2016, 02:08:40 pm »
What is so sad is that England have some really really good players.

Their squad would be the envy of most other countries at Euro 2016.

We have players with great technique (which we always moaned about in the 90s).

Why do we have such poor coaching?  Why are there so few top British coaches?  A huge issue that the FA has never properly addressed.

I actually think this is an easy question. The advent of the premiership and the astronomical amounts paid is the main fact. British coaches are competing with the best in the world now. It's become fashionable to hire foreign coaches, partly because it's successful but also because historically they have been more tactics focussed. The increased focus on tactics has been a huge part, obviously, of the development of the Premiership but also of the promotion of the brand.

Viewed through that particular prism, when you are just looking for an Englishman,  Allardyce is not that bad a choice. From a more objective standpoint, it is a shocking decision. Allardyce's CV is completely unsuitable for the task at hand as is the particular defensive outlook he employs. A defensive style won't work for England for a myriad of reasons. The main one is that English players don't suit that sort of game, they never have and they never will. English players historically suit a high tempo game focussed on either possession or control.

In contrast to EK's post above, another fantastic read btw, I personally think that the derision fostered on the English team and management by their media has become cliched and hackneyed, both in itself and in many observer's focus on it. Fear isn't the problem, england have under performed for far too long for it to have anything to do with either fear of failure or over expectation.

It's much more endemic. On one hand England don't have enough versatility in their players to be a cohesive team. The influx of foreigners into the English game with their inherent passing skills has meant that the vast majority of their best homegrown players are very similar. Yes their technical ability has improved  but their ability to play a passing game ( as against a possession game) has probably digressed. These English players are really in their respective club sides because of their power and work rate. Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard for instance are great examples of this. There was really only room for one of that type of player in any team ( in central positions anyhow) England consistently played all three because they didn't have enough alternatives in the other positions. On the other hand, English players don't have the disipline, tactically or otherwise, to overcome this lack of versatility and if they do they are not always played ( see Michael Carrick as a good example)

In this regard employing Allardyce appears to me to be a move in completely the wrong direction. England need A manager who can turn their possession into goal scoring chances not someone who will concede possession of the ball. England's most successful club sides have always been possession based, that was the case long before the advent of the premiership.





Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.

Offline steveeastend

  • Learnt to play them drums
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,853
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2016, 02:38:15 pm »
What is so sad is that England have some really really good players.

Their squad would be the envy of most other countries at Euro 2016.

We have players with great technique (which we always moaned about in the 90s).

Why do we have such poor coaching?  Why are there so few top British coaches?  A huge issue that the FA has never properly addressed.

There are a number of small things why England failed in big tournaments.

The first thing to change, which is a MUST in my opinion is to bring in a proper winter break. Give the players 10 to 14 days off in january, after the boxing game days. Without that, England will never be successful at tournaments and as long as the FA and the public believes this lack of a break to have no dramatic impact on the fitness of the players in a tournament after such a long season nothing will change.

I would go so far to say that even with a Hodgsonesque manager England would go at least to a quarter and semi regularly as the impact on the fitness after a certain number of the games strikes in dramatically.

Besides that, there is not ONE foreign manager or player who would dismiss this, not one, as the nature of the game of England is very much about fitness.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Skeeve

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,792
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2016, 07:21:19 pm »
Two year contract..

Massive vote of confidence there

I actually hope that is a new policy on their part rather than a lack of confidence in him, with the world cup and the euros, expecting the manager to prove himself with each tournament doesn't seem unreasonable and if it ends up costing them a bit more money on the next deal that is also fine since you would only need to pay more if england has done well.

Offline bigbonedrawky

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,329
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2016, 08:56:15 pm »
I would wish Sam Allardyce luck in his new job but for two primary reasons (aside from the fact that I’m not an England supporter or even English, although I certainly wouldn’t wish a double-whammy of Roy Hodgson followed by Sam Allardyce on those who are):

Reason #1: I have about as much respect for the man as he has shown to former Liverpool boss Rafael Benítez over the years i.e. none. It takes a very special kind of malice to dismiss the stunning, career-defining achievement of a peer winning the Champions League as “nowt to do with him” or define 5th, 3rd and 3rd as “some very poor finishes in the Premier League” that left Benítez “very lucky to be in a job” in the opening weeks of the 2007/08 season. Most of all, it was his complicity in Alex Ferguson’s attempts to rattle a surging Liverpool in April 2009 that really exemplifies the character of the new England manager. Having apparently been the subject of “dismissive”, “disrespectful”, “quite humiliating” and “unfortunate gestures” at the hands of Benítez the previous Saturday after Liverpool went 2-0 up on his Blackburn Rovers side, Allardyce, not normally known for his timidity, waited until the following Friday to draw the world’s attention to this supposed insult, no doubt prompted by his LMA cohort’s infamous “beyond the pale” ramblings earlier in the week (no wonder Ferguson is reported to have influenced his appointment as England boss, having said a few weeks ago that “with Sam’s experience, he is the obvious choice”). It would be difficult for me, as I’m sure it would be for you, to stomach seeing someone capable of such childish skulduggery achieving any meaningful level of success.

Reason #2: He doesn’t need anyone to wish him luck because, regardless of what happens over the next few years, two things are virtually certain: (a) with the England manager’s salary recently estimated to be £3.9m (the highest of the 24 coaches at Euro 2016) and the only title wins in his 25-year managerial career so far being the League of Ireland First Division with Limerick in 1992 and the Football League Third Division with Notts. County in 1998, a strong case could be made that Allardyce has already hit the jackpot; and (b) regardless of results (and they should at least be on a par with what went before given that England’s World Cup qualifying group contains Slovakia, Scotland, Slovenia, Lithuania and Malta, and the immediate frame of reference in terms of major tournaments is elimination by Costa Rica and Iceland respectively), whatever Allardyce does will be defined as success both by himself (because that’s what he does – “I would be more suited to Inter Milan or Real Madrid. It wouldn't be a problem for me to manage those clubs because I would win the double or the league every time.”) and, more importantly, by the English football media, who will absolutely love “Big Sam” in a way that the rest of us love “@TheBig_Sam”.

The nature of the England manager’s job hasn’t changed so much as the perception of the man in charge has, and Englishness has become the primary qualification in the eyes of many. The national team is still attended by a stifling level of pressure and a white-hot spotlight the equal of almost any job in world football, all the more so given the inability of the manager to simply open a wealthy owner’s chequebook and hoover up the best talent. This spotlight, however, which is largely controlled by the mainstream football media, has gradually been directed away from the dugout since Roy Hodgson took charge in May 2012 and towards the pitch. I suppose it’s understandable in a way: after 5 and a half years of Swede Sven-Göran Eriksson and just over 4 years of Italian Fabio Capello, a combined stretch of over a decade with a foreign manager at the helm broken only by the underwhelming and brief Steve McLaren era, it must have come as a blessed relief to the press to welcome Hodgson, a man once described by chief football writer at the Times Henry Winter as “brimming with anecdotes and wisdom garnered from a life in the game” and who “generously hears others’ tales”. And no doubt addressed them by their first names and asked after their families.

Allardyce, irrespective of traditional notions of success, will thrive in this new reality. Post-Ramsey and pre-Hodgson, as the 30 years of hurt developed and grew, later becoming 40 and now 50, it was traditionally the manager who suffered the media’s sticks and stones for the national team’s real and perceived failures, sometimes even when he was doing a comparatively good job. However, whether it was Bobby Robson or McLaren, Eriksson or Graham Taylor, an Englishman or a foreigner, with a glittering array of Italian, Spanish and European silverware on his CV or a single League Cup, he always suffered some meaningful degree of criticism, whether warranted or otherwise, logical or hysterical, which typically extended across his time in charge and multiplied as it went. Often it was neither fair nor even justifiable, but it was nonetheless a fact of life. The one possible exception is Terry Venables, who was in the semi-unique position (along with Alf Ramsey in 1966) of managing in a tournament on home soil, left the job after one positive campaign and was, in any case, a “proper football man” just like Hodgson and Allardyce.

There’s a very good reason why the infamous documentary on Taylor’s doomed efforts to qualify his team for the 1994 World Cup was originally titled “The Impossible Job”. It wasn’t just because Taylor and his players weren’t up to the task, which they clearly weren’t; it was because the job had long since been rendered so suffocating by the range of external forces to which it was subject that any real level of success was, in effect, unattainable. As recently as four months earlier, the manager’s face had been superimposed onto a turnip on the front page of one particular tabloid rag and the following year his wife and elderly parents would be harassed by reporters for comment on England’s 0-2 loss to the United States.

I outline all of the above as a way of contextualising just how extraordinary the media’s treatment of Hodgson as England manager was, culminating in what we saw in the days following the loss to Iceland. It was no surprise when the media largely defended him during his time at Liverpool, despite him leaving the club five points off the bottom of the table in January 2011, and continued to act as Hodgson cheerleaders despite a six-month reign which was arguably the most underwhelming and distressing of any manager in the club’s history (ok, Graeme Souness circa 15 April 1992 trumps him). These people don’t care about Liverpool Football Club, amply evidenced by the concerted attempts amongst many of them to undermine Benítez’s position over a period of several years, efforts which reached a fever pitch during the 2009/10 season as they finally had a few drops of actual blood to feed on, with Hodgson’s arrival representing the final achievement of their aims.

They do, however, claim to care about England, and so it’s a genuine source of wonder to me that so many continue to downplay his failures to the point where he hasn’t even had to revert to the archetypal bad workman and blame his tools – they’ve been doing it for him! It doesn’t take a visionary, just eyes in your head and a rudimentary knowledge of football history, to conclude that anyone other than Hodgson would have long since been broken down and crushed under the rules of engagement which normally apply to the England job, but not on this occasion. And it’s not that I would have wished the level of vitriol on Hodgson that Taylor (another “decent football man”) had to endure, but to get comparatively little, especially given that his performance as England boss was in some respects historically (and predictably) bad, is a vista as new as it is odd and one from which Allardyce is also likely to benefit.

Having taken over post-Euro 2012 qualification and achieving par at that tournament, more or less, with what had gone before, Hodgson then became the first England manager since Walter Winterbottom in 1958 to lead his team to a first-round exit at the World Cup, a span of 56 years (and at the hands of Costa Rica – at least Winterbottom was up against Lev Yashin’s Soviet Union and Pelé’s Brazil). True, unlike Taylor in 1994 they at least qualified, but that’s not an argument to set the bar very high, especially for £3.9m per annum. His last act as manager two years later was then to preside over arguably England’s worst ever international defeat against Iceland, certainly the most embarrassing since the United States beat them 1-0 in 1950, a span of 64 years and a result compounded by the ease with which France beat the same team 5-2 a few days later. 

Under normal circumstances you might have expected Hodgson to be greeted with some variation on the turnip or “wally with the brolly” motif, especially in an era where everybody seems to have Photoshop (perhaps “owl she wrote” or something to that effect). Instead, what we got was all and sundry bending over backwards to protect him. Indeed, we were hearing what would ultimately become the media’s “company line” as early as several minutes after the final whistle when Didi Hamann, working for RTÉ, went in hard on the standard of the Premier League. It seemed to escape him that, regardless of how overrated the English players may or may not be by their own media, Lars Lagerbäck and Heimir Hallgrímsson would have probably swapped body parts in exchange for a Daniel Sturridge, a Harry Kane, a Marcus Rashford, even an Eric Dier or a James Milner. I realise that this is not necessarily comparing apples with apples, but neither is effectively calling the English players shit because they’re not as technically gifted as their Spanish or German counterparts. What England, as a team, lacked in every tournament under Hodgson was organisation and comfort in their own skin, qualities that any manager worth his £3.9m-worth of salt should be able to ingrain in a squad. Lagerbäck and Hallgrímsson certainly managed it, and with far inferior resources.

Meat was then added to the bones of Hamann’s assessment the following day by his former teammate and Sky’s main football analyst (at least until trusty Hodgson lieutenant Gary Neville returns), Jamie Carragher. While he admitted that “Roy Hodgson, inevitably, carries the can…There was no way he could continue as England manager after the results and performances at Euro 2016 and he cannot escape the spotlight”, those words represented less than a tenth of his column, a fair reflection of the proportion of responsibility placed on Hodgson by the wider football establishment whose criticism of him post-Iceland has generally been buried beneath reams of words attacking the players. According to Carragher, it was these “pampered” individuals, “babies” who are “soft physically and soft mentally”, that were to blame (by the way, Nani, a player that Carragher once reduced to tears during a game, left France earlier this month with a winners’ medal). For good measure, Henry Winter then wrote an article on 30 June with a headline that trumpeted: “England must stop cocooning spoilt players to succeed”. And earlier this month, Steve Bruce offered a withering assessment of the way the “players arrive, tracksuits, washbags, headphones, in their own world”, as if their German counterparts don’t have iPods or hair gel and as if it matters anyway.

Even those who did criticise Hodgson, like Paul Hayward on 28 June, framed that criticism in such a way as to avoid asking whether the methods which “have translated from Halmstad to Malmo to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax to the Swiss national team” (generally accepted to represent the “safe” appointment back in 2012) had ever qualified him for this job any more than they had for Liverpool. According to Hayward, Hodgson “seemed to have a mid-life crisis at this tournament” (he’s 68, for crying out loud), “turned against his basic ideas about football management” and that’s why it all went pear-shaped. We can only assume that he did similar at the World Cup, then? And if so, does this not beg the question as to where the cacophony of voices was demanding he step aside after his team finished bottom of a group containing Costa Rica? No, instead you had the likes of Winter back in the summer of 2014 arguing that Hodgson was “playing poker with a limited hand against veteran card-sharks” and that “lapses by individual players” were to blame.

Nothing will change as far as Allardyce goes. All the FA have done here is swap those aforementioned methods which “have translated from Halmstad to Malmo to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax to the Swiss national team” to those which have thus far translated only from Limerick to Blackpool to Notts. County to Bolton to Sunderland (but not so comfortably to Newcastle). The pattern is repeating and, once again, nobody in the mainstream media is raising so much as an eyebrow of surprise or disappointment. After all, Allardyce’s press-conferences will probably be interesting, there’ll be plenty of copy for the media, he’ll no doubt even call them by their first names and do it in a Dudley accent, and isn’t that what truly matters? His team will swat Slovakia, Scotland, Slovenia, Lithuania and Malta aside, and even if they do go out early in two years' time, could it really be any worse than losing to Iceland?

I’ve never been a lover of the England national team or the bullshit surrounding it, but I grew up to a large degree on English culture and I have a lot of time for English people generally. That’s why the saddest part of this is that, in a way, the appointment of Allardyce is so perfectly in keeping with what’s been happening in a wider context. Back at the end of June, it somehow seemed fitting when an England team paralysed by old ideas and beset by empty-headed voices on all sides crashed out of Europe just four days after the country did similar, following a referendum campaign that was won to a large degree by inviting people to look backwards. And while I wouldn’t insult anybody’s intelligence by claiming that any of them speak for anyone here, there have been a number of people involved in the game queuing up to be its version of Nigel Frottage over the past month. Richard “did you smash it?” Keyes’ summation of Allardyce’s imminent appointment this week, for example, captured much of what is increasingly rotten in both English football specifically and English society in general: “Big Sam is the man then! Excellent. Now we can get our game back – re-discover our English DNA. Be English – not whatever is fashionable.” First the country reclaimed, now the game – what a run the English are on.

You see that, and then you read Steve Bruce, apparently an outside contender for the job himself, say that “We've got to get that English spirit back. It’s what we're about, what we’re famous for.”, and it makes you wonder what hope the game in England has now. The single most important thing that could have happened for the English national team in the short-term after Hodgson’s resignation was for the FA to withstand those same dark impulses for self-immolation which gripped the nation during the referendum vote, driven by similarly vacuous voices peddling predictable empty chatter and easy answers. Voices like those of former England captains Paul Ince, Alan Shearer and Rio Ferdinand, all of whom are now paid handsomely for the simple act of opening their mouths, who immediately backed Glenn Hoddle’s candidacy for the England role, Glenn Hoddle, whose managerial efforts have resulted in the sum total of one League Cup runners-up spot, the Tournoi de France and the undying outrage of both the disabled community and decent people everywhere, as well as a Hodgson-esque sub-40% win ratio.

What the FA have done, in the end, is give in to unreason, appointing a manager with one season’s experience of European competition, who has never managed in the Champions League or won a major trophy in 25 years, and now they’re no doubt sitting back and nodding smugly while those same voices make the case for “Big Sam” based largely on nationality and a weak “but Chris Coleman, Wales…” logic. Right – and Lars Lagerbäck, Iceland… Jorge Luis Pinto, Costa Rica…who else? By that logic, Martin O’Neill’s Republic of Ireland should be regarded as a shining light in the corridors of the FA given that they gave France a game with mostly Premier League reserves and Championship players – hell, maybe they are considering Allardyce is the FA’s choice, but they shouldn’t be. What can be achieved with Hal Robson-Kanu or Jón Daði Böðvarsson or Jeff Hendrick and what can be achieved with the players at England’s disposal are, and should always be considered, two very different things.

Carragher also bemoaned England’s naivety in his aforementioned column, saying of Italy specifically that “they are streetwise, they know how to deal with situations. Their defenders mark you so tight at set-pieces that it feels as if they are in your boots. They give cute fouls away. They know how to win.” It’s a fair point, and arguably the most streetwise team of them all, Portugal, have just won the European Championship, yet it begs the question: is Allardyce really the coach to instil that? A man who once said of foreign players that “They make a big fuss about it and that’s what they do. That’s mostly foreign players, they do make a big fuss of it. That’s in their nature.”, before going on to proudly state that “they react in a more volatile way to incidents like that than we do.”?  It’s an especially scary prospect given that FA chief-executive Martin Glenn recently suggested that “I want someone to come in to the England role to really work with not just the senior team but to make sure all the great work with the under-16s, 17s, 18s…to knit all that together” and to “make sure all the development teams are laddering up to something more effective.”.

Speaking of Glenn: he recently made the point that “the British press, like it or not, are probably the most intensely passionate about the game in the world and that has a spill over effect. The consequence of which is people probably play not to make a mistake, as opposed to play to win.”. Perhaps now we’re getting somewhere. After all, has one of the media’s highest profile number, Henry Winter, not previously admitted the following: “The players run out there with the white shirt weighing heavily on them. They worry about the critical headlines if they slip up, the sort of media storm that blew around Rob Green and his family after his mistake against the United States at the 2010 World Cup. One player confided to me that all he could think about in the tunnel before kick-off was what rating he might get in the next day’s papers…He hadn’t even kicked a ball and he was already concerned about the post-match fall-out.”.

Well it was Winter’s profession, if not Winter himself, who tormented Green after that game against the United States, Paul Robinson and Scott Carson against Croatia, David Beckham against Argentina, Gareth Southgate, Stuart Pearce and Chris Waddle against Germany and, back when it was fashionable to criticise the manager, put the likes of Robson, Taylor, Eriksson and McLaren through as much hell as it’s possible to put a football manager. It’s utterly fucking lamentable to see one of them recognise that his own profession is a massive part of the problem, type it out, look at it, maybe proof-read it a couple of times and then go on his merry way without a care in the world, later publishing an article under the headline “England must stop cocooning spoilt players to succeed”.

Martin Glenn might not be a football expert, as he admits himself, but he does see that England’s players “play not to make a mistake, as opposed to play to win”. My solution would involve finding a way to remove the team from the 24/7 media shitstorm that surrounds England, but Glenn and his colleagues have devised a more unfortunate one. To hire a manager who plays percentage football designed to take as much risk out of the game as humanly possible, presumably so that the players don’t have to worry about mistakes anymore – “if in doubt, put it out” or “launch it”, right? Perhaps England fans will yet see a modern version of Jack Charlton’s Ireland team circa late-1980’s when, blessed with players of the calibre of Liverpool’s John Aldridge, Ray Houghton, Mark Lawrenson and Ronnie Whelan, former Arsenal and Juventus legend Liam Brady (albeit coming towards the end of his career), Manchester United’s Paul McGrath and Kevin Moran, and Arsenal’s David O’Leary, he implemented a style of play based largely on long balls to Tony Cascarino or Niall Quinn (Andy Carroll anyone?), balls in behind the opposition full-backs to Aldridge which meant that the most prolific centre-forward in English football didn’t break his international duck for 4 years, and stuck arguably the country’s greatest ever centre-back (McGrath) in midfield for a few years to accommodate Mick McCarthy. It’s just a pity that Chris Samba plays for Congo.

Hey, it might work, at least to the extent that such an approach may well have secured a win against Iceland. Beyond that, though, Allardyce, unless he possesses the kind of hitherto untapped levels of managerial ability that he once claimed make him equipped for the Real Madrid job, is unlikely to have enough tactical acumen or experience at the highest level, or be “streetwise” enough to use Carragher’s word, to improve substantially on what his predecessor did, namely qualify for a major tournament and then preside over an early exit once he gets there. In the meantime a squad of players which, on paper, is every bit the equal of its Italian counterpart that reached the quarter-final of Euro 2016 and ran Germany desperately close, with a centre-forward who often lost out to Shane Long at club level last season (Pelle) and a player that “Big Sam” himself has recently sold from Sunderland (Giaccherini) leading their attack, will continue to labour when the pressure comes on. Allardyce’s appointment won’t change that, all it will do is satisfy the media’s craving for an English manager.

I certainly don’t agree with the view that these English players are “soft”, a word which, to me, has certain connotations not a million (or even a handful of) miles removed from the same kind of rhetoric that drove Brexit. Not that I’m accusing Carragher of parroting that nonsense, although his apparent derision at the idea of football academies does carry an unfortunately backwards undertone. He’s simply misguided, like so many others, and sometimes that can be just as bad. It just feels like the same inward-looking, nostalgic, harking back to the “good old days” of Terry Butcher’s bloody bandage and ‘Psycho’ Pearce acting the, well, psycho after that penalty against Spain, that tackle by Moore or when Lineker scored, Bobby belting the ball…ugh, I’ll stop that before I get sick…bullshit that reduces everything to black or white, hard or soft, in or out.

The sensible, and brave, decision was to avoid that kind of rhetoric like the plague. It’s what got Hodgson the job in the first place and prompted possibly the worst piece of writing I’ve ever seen from an English football journalist (whose surname wasn’t Samuel and first name wasn’t Martin) in June when one of them, Michael Henderson, stated that: “When Raheem Sterling retires at night in his £3 million fortress in Prestbury, the Cheshire village which serves as a barracks for the Manchester light infantry, it’s a fair bet he doesn’t mug up on the literature of Latin America. It would be interesting to know whether he has actually read a book at all.”

There’s a bizarrely poisonous couple of sentences for you, a relatively short time removed from another journalist, Jeff Powell, interpreting Sterling’s fatigue prior to a European Championship qualifier in Estonia as “a player who had announced himself too tired to give his all for his country” and suggesting that “it is worth drawing to Master Sterling’s attention that younger men than he fight and die for this country.” Later on in his reign, the England manager himself said of Daniel Sturridge, another of England’s best and brightest talents, that “it was important for me to test his resolve a little bit…and I am delighted he did get out there, even though he maybe didn't feel 100 per cent, because that means in future I will know I can trust him as an England player and he is not going to be playing when he feels like it”. So, to summarise: Sterling is illiterate, or at least uninterested in Latin American literature, and possibly unworthy of living near the Manchester light infantry (because why else mention it?), while Sturridge is simply lazy and untrustworthy.

These are two players that Brendan Rodgers, who will likely never become a top manager, used to good effect in ransacking the Premier League a few seasons back, something which, even if you were inclined to agree with Hamann’s Iceland post-game comments, shows how effective the duo can be. Allardyce, if he has any sense, should be looking to build his team around them. At the very least, one can bend stunners in with the outside of his boot in the Europa League finals and the other has pace to burn, a key attribute given the importance of getting to the line and around the back of defenders who may very well be hitting and hurting you, wise words from another former Liverpool and “England man” a couple of years before he started being mercilessly booed by his own fans for no apparent reason, possibly because they thought he was lazy, untrustworthy and uninterested in the works of Pablo Neruda. And quite possibly “soft”.

This is the point to which England is wilfully regressing.
Top notch post  'Take a bow son, take a bow."  :thumbup

Offline deFacto please, you bastards

  • Apologies if I haven't responded to every post in every thread yet, I'm trying hard. farKnow.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,685
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2016, 12:37:45 pm »
Fat Sam says he hopes he's stint with England is as successful as his career so far. So ,winning fuck all?

Offline MichaelA

  • MasterBaker, honey-trapper and 'concerned neighbour'. Beyond The Pale. Vermin on the ridiculous. Would love to leave Ashley Cole gasping for air. Dupe Snoop Extraordinaire. RAWK MARTYR #1. The proud owner of a new lower case a. Mickey Two Sheds.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 29,365
  • At the Academy
  • Super Title: MichaelA
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2016, 01:11:00 pm »
A new section should be made just containing this post...Amazing work. Literally nothing else needs to be added to what you said.

Agreed, this is an excellent read. We've had the laughs and eye rolling in the old thread, this contribution to the debate takes it to another level, and deserves a fresh thread.


Online carling

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,520
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2016, 04:41:55 pm »
Wow great post.

If there's one thing Roy Hodgson is good at, it's lowering expectations.  Seriously, I can't emphasise enough how much I think that's played a part in Big Sam getting the job.

It's very subtle at times, but every time I heard him speak for England, and Liverpool before, it felt like he was downplaying something about his players or club.  For example when he was talking before the Euros.  He claimed England would be able to achieve great things, but then followed it up with "Nobody expected Denmark to win it in 92. Nobody expected Greece to win the Euros either. Nobody expected Leicester to win the league."

Quite subtle, and on the face of it looked like he was being positive.  In reality he is comparing England's chances to team's who have been rank outsiders, and shocked the world.  That England squad should not have been compared to these clubs and their respective situations.  They should have been going in expecting to make an impact.

Then, after planting seeds like this making people think England need a miracle to achieve anything.  We see one of the most abject performances the country has ever produced.  It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy (largely down to Roy's management of course), and in the aftermath we think so lowly of England, that someone like Big Sam seems like a great idea.  It makes sense that he can improve them, but only because under Hodgson they hit rock-bottom. 

Offline Floydy

  • G is for grumpy. It is modest understatement.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,324
  • Hidden in the shadows, Orchestrating life
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2016, 05:54:02 pm »
E2K spot on as always, the England circus has another facet and has the potential to 'out do' all other england farces of yesteryear.

Still coming to terms with it, not that I care but what an absolute Joke this is.

Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.  Albert Einstein.  
Unquestionable trust in authority is the enemy of truth. Albert Einstein
Wake up to the war on for your mind!

Online End Product

  • doesn't always come out of the right end
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,820
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2016, 06:45:12 pm »
Brilliant piece of writing.
No time for caution.

Offline 4pool

  • Mr. ( last name) Minister Of Truth - 1984 to 1984. The first to do a Moyesed. A pore grammarist.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 52,879
  • Liverpool: European Capital of Football 2005/2006
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2016, 08:09:35 pm »
I take it this has changed now.. :lmao


Allardyce declares lifetime boycott of 'lying' BBC and calls summit with players





Daniel Taylor

@DTguardian
Friday 22 September 2006 21.24 EDTLast modified on Tuesday 5 April 201600.21 EDT

Sam Allardyce yesterday announced a lifetime boycott of the BBC, following its Panorama documentary about alleged corruption in football. The Bolton Wanderers manager, who has promised legal action over accusations that he took bungs, refused entry to all BBC outlets at his first press conference since a programme that he claims was packed with "outrageous lies".

Allardyce also had a warning for the large number of newspaper journalists at the Reebok Stadium. "I expect you to write about football, otherwise I won't be seeing any of you again either," he said. "Just be careful what you write."

Allardyce said he would not answer questions about the specific allegations made by three agents in the programme. He did, however, make it clear that he would follow the Portsmouth manager Harry Redknapp in issuing a writ against the BBC, and claimed he had the support of his club chairman, Phil Gartside.

He also said that he did not fear for his job at a time when Gartside was holding an internal inquiry and the Football Association and the Premier League were looking into his transfer dealings. "I've had the backing of the chairman, the club and everyone who works here, so I've no fears on that department at all," he said.

Bolton play Portsmouth at Fratton Park on Monday. Allardyce is aware that he and Redknapp will be under intense scrutiny and he called a meeting of his senior players yesterday to discuss the fall-out from the Panorama programme.

"I've spoken to them about it and we have to move on. I told them: 'It's nothing to concern you lads, so get on with your jobs and do what you're paid to do - win football matches.' It's been difficult, it's not very nice, but you have to be professional. I'm paid by this football club to work for them so I have to put everything else to one side. After that, I don't want to say too much more. My inner feelings are my inner feelings and they're not for expressing to the public, certainly not at this time."

Asked about his stance against the BBC, Allardyce redirected the question to Bolton's head of media, Danny Reuben, who said: "We've spoken privately to the BBC and they're aware of our thoughts. That's the reason why they're not here." The BBC is a rights-holder for the Premiership but Allardyce has followed Mr. Ferguson in refusing to speak to the corporation. Ferguson's boycott followed a documentary shown in May 2004, also involving Panorama's reporter Alex Millar, which investigated his son Jason's business dealings as a football agent and particularly his links with Manchester United.

Advertisement
Allardyce told his players about the allegations immediately after their Carling Cup win at Walsall on Tuesday night. The captain, Kevin Nolan, said there had been a meeting at the training ground yesterday.

"I can't say much for legal reasons but the one thing I want to say is that the players are fully behind him," said Nolan. "I watched the programme on Tuesday night, then the next day I gave him a ring to say I was behind him and if he needed anything to get in touch. He received dozens of messages like that because we're all behind him."

Allardyce, who claims the BBC have no hard evidence, also seems to have the backing of the club's followers, judging by the Bolton Evening News' receipt of over 100 supportive letters. Only three demanded that he should leave.

"It really is comforting," he said. "I've had texts, phone calls, emails, letters. The people I've met in the street have been fantastic. Other managers have been ringing me. I've spoken to Harry [Redknapp] a couple of times.

"People from every area in football, and beyond, have been in touch. It's been superb, for myself and my family. Professionally, I just have to get on with it and not let it affect me. I have to put it behind me, move on and my legal team will do the rest."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/sep/23/newsstory.sport1
Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.

Offline Ziltoid

  • Grass. See you at next year's panto (oh no you won't!). Carrot-topped Phallic Snowman Extraordinaire.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 18,435
  • Scrubbers
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2016, 08:36:42 pm »
Other managers have been ringing me. I've spoken to Harry [Redknapp] a couple of times.

I wonder if he offered him his dog to do his accounts, set password etc etc.

Offline Redman0151

  • Stills and Nash Warloch
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,967
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2016, 09:52:09 pm »
Insisting upon an English manager was dumb, but now they have I guess Sam is the best option. I've grown to like sam a bit in recent years, he doesn't take shite off the likes of Mourinho and he openly calls out bollocks like "The West Ham way".

At least it's not Hodgson. I find it interesting that despite the "no nonsense old fashioned English football" vibe that surrounds him, he has an interest in stats and trying to improve clubs off the pitch to give them the best chance of success.

I also have a strong inclination to go watch Mike Bassett...

« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 09:54:10 pm by Crosby Wych »
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

Offline Schmidt

  • 's small stretchy scrotum
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,480
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2016, 11:03:24 pm »
I actually think this is an easy question. The advent of the premiership and the astronomical amounts paid is the main fact. British coaches are competing with the best in the world now. It's become fashionable to hire foreign coaches, partly because it's successful but also because historically they have been more tactics focussed. The increased focus on tactics has been a huge part, obviously, of the development of the Premiership but also of the promotion of the brand.

Viewed through that particular prism, when you are just looking for an Englishman,  Allardyce is not that bad a choice. From a more objective standpoint, it is a shocking decision. Allardyce's CV is completely unsuitable for the task at hand as is the particular defensive outlook he employs. A defensive style won't work for England for a myriad of reasons. The main one is that English players don't suit that sort of game, they never have and they never will. English players historically suit a high tempo game focussed on either possession or control.

In contrast to EK's post above, another fantastic read btw, I personally think that the derision fostered on the English team and management by their media has become cliched and hackneyed, both in itself and in many observer's focus on it. Fear isn't the problem, england have under performed for far too long for it to have anything to do with either fear of failure or over expectation.

It's much more endemic. On one hand England don't have enough versatility in their players to be a cohesive team. The influx of foreigners into the English game with their inherent passing skills has meant that the vast majority of their best homegrown players are very similar. Yes their technical ability has improved  but their ability to play a passing game ( as against a possession game) has probably digressed. These English players are really in their respective club sides because of their power and work rate. Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard for instance are great examples of this. There was really only room for one of that type of player in any team ( in central positions anyhow) England consistently played all three because they didn't have enough alternatives in the other positions. On the other hand, English players don't have the disipline, tactically or otherwise, to overcome this lack of versatility and if they do they are not always played ( see Michael Carrick as a good example)

In this regard employing Allardyce appears to me to be a move in completely the wrong direction. England need A manager who can turn their possession into goal scoring chances not someone who will concede possession of the ball. England's most successful club sides have always been possession based, that was the case long before the advent of the premiership.

I disagree with a lot of this, foreign managers are being hired because they're often much better, their qualifications are better and there's way more of them available which I imagine means lower wages for better quality, similar to players. This article is 6 years old now but given the lack of action by the English FA I'd imagine the same problems are still present today:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jun/01/football-coach-shortage-england

It's also worth remembering that most of those English coaches will have taken English qualifications too, which I bet pale in comparison to the quality of the qualifications in Spain and Germany who have both revamped their training courses in recent years. The bulk of the 'top' English managers seem to just be ex-footballers, do any of them have a healthy appetite for the game? Are there any English managers like Guardiola, Klopp or Rafa? Those guys are real students of the game who focus on every little detail and spend all of their time thinking about football.

English managers and players are given plenty of opportunities, more than foreign managers in this league (see Tim Sherwood), the quality just isn't there.

Edit, found something a little more recent:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/10287856/Greg-Dyke-should-forget-about-England-winning-World-Cup-and-concentrate-on-fixing-grassroots-football.html
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 11:08:40 pm by Schmidt »

Offline Doc Red

  • Chills before posting and wishes others had too
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,876
  • The eye cannot see what the mind does not know.
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2016, 01:38:06 am »
Wow. What a fantastic post!
I'm not even particularly interested in the goings on of the English managerial carousel, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading this. Thanks for that!


It's much more endemic. On one hand England don't have enough versatility in their players to be a cohesive team. The influx of foreigners into the English game with their inherent passing skills has meant that the vast majority of their best homegrown players are very similar. Yes their technical ability has improved  but their ability to play a passing game ( as against a possession game) has probably digressed. These English players are really in their respective club sides because of their power and work rate. Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard for instance are great examples of this. There was really only room for one of that type of player in any team ( in central positions anyhow) England consistently played all three because they didn't have enough alternatives in the other positions. On the other hand, English players don't have the disipline, tactically or otherwise, to overcome this lack of versatility and if they do they are not always played ( see Michael Carrick as a good example)

That's an interesting theory. I wonder if it's a case of homegrown players being similar because the influx of foriegners (many of a higher technical quality) means local players grow up playing specific roles during their professional careers (which are similar in most of the teams), or if it's a case that the qualities they offer (which we assume are very similar) are the ones that youth coaches focus on developing and highlight. Where are the English deep lying playmakers? Or the number 10 wizards that can create opportunities and wriggle around defenses? And more pertinent to this thread, is Allardyce the manager to emphasise developing these aspects from the youths squads to the national team?
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader.

Offline JLStretton

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2016, 01:48:57 am »
TL:DR???
choose Life.

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,450
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2016, 09:43:27 am »
You should blog this, it's the kind of thing that deserves a much bigger audience. You could set up a  wordpress page and ask RAWK etc. to link it.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline zip

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,278
  • That was liquid football!
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2016, 09:55:29 am »
I'll never forgive the fat bastard for not winning against City away on the final day of the 13/14 season!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 09:59:45 am by zip »
One day, people will hopefully look back and say "I was there son. I was there the year that Spurs won nothing again."

Offline goalrushatgoodison

  • crapinbed
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,317
  • Still waiting for the great leap forward.
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2016, 10:18:31 am »
I disagree with a lot of this, foreign managers are being hired because they're often much better, their qualifications are better and there's way more of them available which I imagine means lower wages for better quality, similar to players. This article is 6 years old now but given the lack of action by the English FA I'd imagine the same problems are still present today:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jun/01/football-coach-shortage-england

It's also worth remembering that most of those English coaches will have taken English qualifications too, which I bet pale in comparison to the quality of the qualifications in Spain and Germany who have both revamped their training courses in recent years. The bulk of the 'top' English managers seem to just be ex-footballers, do any of them have a healthy appetite for the game? Are there any English managers like Guardiola, Klopp or Rafa? Those guys are real students of the game who focus on every little detail and spend all of their time thinking about football.

English managers and players are given plenty of opportunities, more than foreign managers in this league (see Tim Sherwood), the quality just isn't there.

Edit, found something a little more recent:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/10287856/Greg-Dyke-should-forget-about-England-winning-World-Cup-and-concentrate-on-fixing-grassroots-football.html

I'm not sure that you disagree at all!! Certainly not with the part you have addressed.

I'd concur with everything you have written there. You have basically gone deeper into the reasons why foreign coaches have been successful in English football which I acknowledged as one of the main reasons that they are hired by English clubs in the first place.

 Admittedly, your contention that foreign coaches are cheaper isn't something I'd actually thought about. I know players are but would coaches be also?
Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.

Offline goalrushatgoodison

  • crapinbed
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,317
  • Still waiting for the great leap forward.
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2016, 10:32:18 am »
Wow. What a fantastic post!
I'm not even particularly interested in the goings on of the English managerial carousel, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading this. Thanks for that!


That's an interesting theory. I wonder if it's a case of homegrown players being similar because the influx of foriegners (many of a higher technical quality) means local players grow up playing specific roles during their professional careers (which are similar in most of the teams), or if it's a case that the qualities they offer (which we assume are very similar) are the ones that youth coaches focus on developing and highlight. Where are the English deep lying playmakers? Or the number 10 wizards that can create opportunities and wriggle around defenses? And more pertinent to this thread, is Allardyce the manager to emphasise developing these aspects from the youths squads to the national team?

I think its that these are the sort of players most likely to get a game with top premiership clubs. This means flair players are more hidden than they were before the influx of more technically gifted foreign players I.e. they can't get a game at those top clubs.

This, imo, has a negative affect on your national side. To be an effective international player you most likely need to have gained a lot of big match experience ( including champions league and/or Europa cup) before you are a regular in the national team. You will only get that at the bigger clubs. There are exceptions to that rule but they are few and far between.

I think this has adversely affected teams like the Republic of Ireland ( I'm Irish) as well. Our top players don't get the opportunities they did 25 - 40 years ago.

As for Allardyce, he's just not the man for any scenario Other than promotion and relegation battles.
Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.

Offline KERRYKOP

  • KerryKop - Fiendish Bunny Slayer, Enemy Of The Lapine Race and founder of the Benitez band. Mugs old ladies for their kindles. Grindr fiend.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,806
  • RIP Páidí Ó Sé
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2016, 10:33:40 am »
Earpieces to make a comeback?


Hit me baby one more time!

Offline KeithK83

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 654
  • Justice for the 96
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2016, 10:44:33 am »
Use to manage my home town team here in Ireland... Now England Manager?!  ;D
Walk on... Walk on... With Hope... In Your Heart

Offline Bangin Them In

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,504
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2016, 11:40:30 am »
it's the foreign managers fault Fat Sam has won the sum total of nothing

I'm English and my progression to the top table has been prevented, blah blah

Clearly been sat at tables most of his life
A win for the Liverpool country

Offline Schmidt

  • 's small stretchy scrotum
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,480
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2016, 01:55:46 pm »
I'm not sure that you disagree at all!! Certainly not with the part you have addressed.

I'd concur with everything you have written there. You have basically gone deeper into the reasons why foreign coaches have been successful in English football which I acknowledged as one of the main reasons that they are hired by English clubs in the first place.

 Admittedly, your contention that foreign coaches are cheaper isn't something I'd actually thought about. I know players are but would coaches be also?

Ah maybe I missed your point a little. The main thing I was disagreeing with was the idea that it's fashionable to hire foreign managers, which I thought implied that hiring less foreign managers would equal more high quality English managers emerging, whereas in my opinion fewer foreign managers would mean a poorer league and poorer coaching for England's best players. I think foreign managers are more frequently hired because they're generally much, much better (Bobby brown shoes notwithstanding). Clubs want to hire British managers but whenever they go that route it tends to end in either no progress whatsoever or utter failure.

The point about manager wages I made was pretty speculative, it makes sense but I can't find any numbers to back it up.

Offline harleydanger

  • 7/2=3. Proud holder of shittest ideas badge.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,519
  • If I sound stupid, I'm probably casting a line
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2016, 02:37:17 pm »
Last English manager to win anything, anywhere in the world?
WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE!

Normally a player can look great on tubes, but one of the things that's encouraging for me is just the amount of youtube videos on him

Offline arthur sarnoff

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Wilful Regression: Sam Allardyce is the new England Manager
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2016, 02:52:40 pm »
Last English manager to win anything, anywhere in the world?

Sean Dyche, I imagine.