Author Topic: e-scooters  (Read 31201 times)

Offline Red Beret

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2021, 08:41:37 pm »
Er, what?

It is illegal to use a privately owned e-scooter, but you must have a certain bit in your driving license?
You must have motor insurance, but it is done through your rental agreement - for the privately owned scooter?

???

That makes no sense to me at all.

I like how it says, "if you're going to use a scooter illegally, you need this and this..." ;D

It must be garbled.  The provisions must relate to using a scooter legally via rental?
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Offline rob1966

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2021, 09:00:37 pm »
Pretty sure no scooters do 50, there are def bikes that do it though. See gangs of lands on them flying down the pavements and they’re basically electric motorbikes.

The Dualtron X does 55mph. The RION RE racing scooter does 80mph, but thats $6500

This one does 70kph/44mph.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GUNAI-Electric-Scooter-Foldable-Charging/dp/B07W6YTWG8
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Offline kesey

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2021, 10:28:52 pm »
See gangs of lands on them flying down the pavements

 :lmao
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2021, 07:42:06 am »
"It is against the law to use a privately owned e-scooter. If you use an e-scooter illegally:
You must have the category Q entitlement on your driving licence to use an e-scooter. A full or provisional UK licence for categories AM, A or B includes entitlement for category Q. If you have one of these licences, you can use an e-scooter.
E-scooters must have motor insurance, but you do not need to arrange this as this will be provided by your e-scooter rental operator."
It is illegal to use a privately owned e-scooter, but you must have a certain bit in your driving license?
You must have motor insurance, but it is done through your rental agreement - for the privately owned scooter?

Actually, a distinction has to be made between private-owned-private-driven and private-owned-rental-driven.

If you have a private-owned-rental-driven scooter, you have rented them from a private company. The rental company is the private owner, and you are the private renter. This company, while offering you the contract, has to sell you the insurance with it. They cant sell you the contract and then ask you to pay more for the insurance. I think it is 1 pound per rental and 15p per minute for usage there? This includes the rental cost and insurance cost. Also, these scooters are registered. So, any mischief, it's easy to identify the scooter, and by extension, the user.

If you have a private-owned-private-driven scooter, you don't have any insurance or registration. So these have to be taken care of before you are legally allowed to drive them on the public road. Registration is fairly straight forward. It's a motorised vehicle. It has to be registered. Scooter insurance usually covers two entities.
  • Third-party - Covers damages to person, property and any other form of financial loss.
  • Self-damage - Covers any self-inflicted financial loss like theft or fire.

I think that article has been poorly worded in terms of this distinction.

Offline mikeb58

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2021, 09:44:52 am »
I've not had any close calls with them when walking yet, but I must nearly get hit by a bike rider at least once a day. Always on the fucking pavement and always going so fucking fast. I'll smack someone off one one day.

Pet hate of mine this, I love walking but fuck knows how many times a day some some speeding wanker on a push bike whizzes past me on the pavement. Some of these law breaking idiotics are actually wearing helmets, so if they do crash into a innocent pedestrian they will be fine!

Had loads of arguments with these pedal pushing pricks, and did twat one when he told me to fuck off. This was outside my flat on Westminster Rd, he nearly took me and me girlfriend out on a narrow pavement.

The shithouse knocked on my door a few minutes later waving a fuckin big axe type weapon, then pissed off.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2021, 09:46:05 am »

Offline Tesco tearaway

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2021, 10:13:16 am »
See gangs of lands on them flying down the pavements.
What’s funny?
Well it's not a 'common' sight is it?  ;)

Are E-scooters safe?
Yes probably.
It's only when they get used that they become dangerous.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2021, 12:59:53 pm »
Well it's not a 'common' sight is it?  ;)

I was on about those eleccy bikes which are closer to a motorbike than they are pedal bike.

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2021, 01:05:43 pm »
gangs of lands
;)

I was on about those eleccy bikes which are closer to a motorbike than they are pedal bike.
Yeah I know mate  :)
My post was about how safe those e-scooters are depending on who's steering them.
If your moral compass is Piers Moron then I ask you to think whether someone who oversaw illegal phone hacking and published fake pictures depicting War Crimes is an appropriate person to look up to. In fact, I'd suggest you're a bit of a c*nt.

Online redbyrdz

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2021, 02:03:57 pm »

I think that article has been poorly worded in terms of this distinction..


This.

I still can't see how you can continue the sentence: "If you use an e-scooter illegally:"
with anything other than negative consequences, eg "you will be fined", "it will be seized and destroyed", etc. The continuing sentence "you must have an entitlement in your driving license" just doesn't make sense.

Also, I do get the insurance thing with the rental companies, but how do they get around the requirement of a driving license?


(I think the government website article is supposed to say, "It is against the law to use a privately owned e-scooter, unless you have entitlement Q in your driving license and have taken out insurance for it.")
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2021, 08:37:00 pm »
I am not sure if this makes sense, but this is how we have it in Germany.

You need a basic license to drive them. Yes. But there is no police control or the company does not control if the rider/renter has a valid driving license. As long as you drive safely and responsibly, it's should be ok.

But the moment something happens; Someone gets hurt or property gets destroyed, the availability/validity of the license would determine the validity of the insurance. So if someone without a license damages property or causes some physical damage to some bystander, he would have to pay them from his pocket.


Offline WEST HAM PAUL

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #51 on: April 7, 2021, 03:31:57 am »
I’ve previously worked for an Escooter company

I was City Operations manager & helped launch & set up here in Australia . As always a few teething problems but was a huge success making over $250,000 profits a month

Now the success of these will depend on the company there scooters technology & how it’s managed

Who I worked for the technology in the scooters was fantastic & the geofencing & all the safety things they could implement was great

Now as the manager I’d visit the area & identify potential problems, issues & put in place safety features before the problem can arise . Now as with anything you can’t be 100% perfect but if you can set things up on your geofencing beforehand & liaise with local council or stakeholders then all the better

You need to understand the city & what areas & times tick as to where to place the scooters ensuring a safe location

Now in 11 months I was there we lost 6 scooters yep only 6 never to be found again.  Again comes down to your staff working well for you , good technology, safety & placement of scooters

Plus the biggest thing of the city likes them & they did they saw the mostly positives & people didn’t want to wreck them . We did get damaged ones of course but if you collect & fix quickly then people don’t see the damage ones . Psychology of well these are hardly ever damaged in the public’s eye


They can be a nuisance to people but you need to identify those potential areas & service them asap. Get the scooters out or tidied up etc

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Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #52 on: April 7, 2021, 11:00:27 am »
Yeah. But - how - do - you - stop - them - riding - on - the - pavement.  >:(

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #53 on: April 7, 2021, 11:19:42 am »
I’ve previously worked for an Escooter company

I was City Operations manager & helped launch & set up here in Australia . As always a few teething problems but was a huge success making over $250,000 profits a month

Now the success of these will depend on the company there scooters technology & how it’s managed

Who I worked for the technology in the scooters was fantastic & the geofencing & all the safety things they could implement was great

Now as the manager I’d visit the area & identify potential problems, issues & put in place safety features before the problem can arise . Now as with anything you can’t be 100% perfect but if you can set things up on your geofencing beforehand & liaise with local council or stakeholders then all the better

You need to understand the city & what areas & times tick as to where to place the scooters ensuring a safe location

Now in 11 months I was there we lost 6 scooters yep only 6 never to be found again.  Again comes down to your staff working well for you , good technology, safety & placement of scooters

Plus the biggest thing of the city likes them & they did they saw the mostly positives & people didn’t want to wreck them . We did get damaged ones of course but if you collect & fix quickly then people don’t see the damage ones . Psychology of well these are hardly ever damaged in the public’s eye


They can be a nuisance to people but you need to identify those potential areas & service them asap. Get the scooters out or tidied up etc



Interesting insight, ta.

Agree that the scooter being in good nick and not seen as rubbish helps with people looking after them. Still think thay was one of the reasons the Mobike bikes in Manchester got vandalised so much - they are just completely rubbish, slow with small wheels and low gears, impossible to feel like you're riding a proper bike. Not something people feel needs looking after. Doesn't answer the question why only in Manchester though.
« Last Edit: April 7, 2021, 11:21:26 am by redbyrdz »
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #54 on: April 7, 2021, 02:24:30 pm »
Yeah. But - how - do - you - stop - them - riding - on - the - pavement.  >:(


Offline rob1966

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #55 on: April 7, 2021, 02:34:16 pm »
Interesting insight, ta.

Agree that the scooter being in good nick and not seen as rubbish helps with people looking after them. Still think thay was one of the reasons the Mobike bikes in Manchester got vandalised so much - they are just completely rubbish, slow with small wheels and low gears, impossible to feel like you're riding a proper bike. Not something people feel needs looking after. Doesn't answer the question why only in Manchester though.

I'd have just put that down to Mancs being scumbags.
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Offline WEST HAM PAUL

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #56 on: April 8, 2021, 03:40:26 am »
Yeah. But - how - do - you - stop - them - riding - on - the - pavement.  >:(



There is the technology to do this .

Within a geofencing you can implement, no riding zones, no parking zones & speed limits.

A no parking zone means you can’t  end trip the scooter in that area . The issue is you have to have a buffer for when the scooter enters a no riding or parking zone etc . A buffer is too slow the scooter down & usually takes 30-45 seconds to stop . A scooter can actually travel quite far in that short time but you have to have it for safety otherwise if the scooter stops dead it’s too sudden for the rider . In New Zealand it happened with another scooter company & the rider went straight over the handlebars & broke both arms

This is where you have to be clear to councils & stakeholders & explain the buffer & that scooters will still enter the area you don’t want them too but once riders get used to it stopping when they enter they will learn to mostly avoid it


From my phone I could view the GPS of every scooter & could see if it was toppled on its side, how much battery was left.
If it had been stationary for a period of time , it’s last 10 users , last 10 times touched by staff.
If staff had reported a mechanical or electrical fault on it so it could be picked up

I could view how many trips per minute, hour, day, week, month etc
Where they started & stopped plus heat maps of usage.
How much revenue, see trips in progress

Popular parking zones used & how many trips to & from
Look at the map to see last trip & user  & awake the GPS if lost . Giving me all times used

Look at user history of rides & payments etc

Plus I could view & track the staff where they are during their shift

That’s just some of it

Like I said if this is use correctly it can be a success & have a limited impact on the people or businesses who see the negatives . Of course there are some but if you keep on top of it & areas are cleared & scooters maintained it helps


« Last Edit: April 8, 2021, 03:42:16 am by WEST HAM PAUL »
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #57 on: April 8, 2021, 08:06:17 am »
Really starting to dislike these things. Typically faster than an average bicycle and much quieter, and bicycles are already pretty quiet. Saw two girls a pair the wrong way around Elliot Street the other day. Granted, it was late, but just one car coming the other way could have led to a nasty result. Something about them just seems to make people forget about traffic laws.

I'd rather just have an electric bicycle.  They're a lot safer control wise, being a traditional design, and surely can't be that much more expensive than an e-scooter?

For that matter, if you can get a scooter to do 80mph, will we see electric versions of motorbikes soon?
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Offline WEST HAM PAUL

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #58 on: April 8, 2021, 08:13:49 am »
Really starting to dislike these things. Typically faster than an average bicycle and much quieter, and bicycles are already pretty quiet. Saw two girls a pair the wrong way around Elliot Street the other day. Granted, it was late, but just one car coming the other way could have led to a nasty result. Something about them just seems to make people forget about traffic laws.

I'd rather just have an electric bicycle.  They're a lot safer control wise, being a traditional design, and surely can't be that much more expensive than an e-scooter?

For that matter, if you can get a scooter to do 80mph, will we see electric versions of motorbikes soon?

City I worked in was capped at 15kmph (9mph) , other cities max 25kmph (15mph) . Again depending on where could be lower some communal pedestrian areas at 5kmph (2mph) . All for safety
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #59 on: April 8, 2021, 08:51:30 am »


There is the technology to do this .

Within a geofencing you can implement, no riding zones, no parking zones & speed limits.

A no parking zone means you can’t  end trip the scooter in that area . The issue is you have to have a buffer for when the scooter enters a no riding or parking zone etc . A buffer is too slow the scooter down & usually takes 30-45 seconds to stop . A scooter can actually travel quite far in that short time but you have to have it for safety otherwise if the scooter stops dead it’s too sudden for the rider . In New Zealand it happened with another scooter company & the rider went straight over the handlebars & broke both arms

This is where you have to be clear to councils & stakeholders & explain the buffer & that scooters will still enter the area you don’t want them too but once riders get used to it stopping when they enter they will learn to mostly avoid it


From my phone I could view the GPS of every scooter & could see if it was toppled on its side, how much battery was left.
If it had been stationary for a period of time , it’s last 10 users , last 10 times touched by staff.
If staff had reported a mechanical or electrical fault on it so it could be picked up

I could view how many trips per minute, hour, day, week, month etc
Where they started & stopped plus heat maps of usage.
How much revenue, see trips in progress

Popular parking zones used & how many trips to & from
Look at the map to see last trip & user  & awake the GPS if lost . Giving me all times used

Look at user history of rides & payments etc

Plus I could view & track the staff where they are during their shift

That’s just some of it

Like I said if this is use correctly
it can be a success & have a limited impact on the people or businesses who see the negatives . Of course there are some but if you keep on top of it & areas are cleared & scooters maintained it helps

and there your argument falls to pieces

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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #60 on: April 8, 2021, 09:06:06 am »
Something about them just seems to make people forget about traffic laws.

Mainly the little scrotes riding them I would think!

It is the same here - the people who tear around on them like dickheads all tend to be young (often teenagers), mainly male (although occasionally you will get girl/girl or girl/guy riding one of them) and if we´re being honest - in trackies or similar!

I think at the moment they are the latest fashion, like having a new iPhone. You would hope that at some point they become less of a novelty though, and coupled with police actually cracking down on people driving them like dickheads, and the sorts of measures mentioned by West Ham Paul, that they might start to become a more acceptable form of ordinary usage.

At the moment, with the reputation they have and the people riding them, I think normal people who won´t use them like dickheads are put off, and people who see them as an excuse to whizz round like a dickhead are encouraged.

They have been around for a while here, so you do see a larger number of normal people (commuters etc) using them as well.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2021, 09:10:21 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline CraigDS

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #61 on: April 8, 2021, 09:11:59 am »
The ones riding the scooters around Liverpool aren’t the proper dickheads - those guys are riding the (basically) elec motocross bikes which must go at least 50mph.

Most the people I see on the scooters are touristy looking people, or locals who are 20+. It’s not that they are pissing about on them so much, but more there are so many and they insist on riding them on pavements in groups.

Honestly they only work where there are a lot of cycle paths or very big pedestrian areas. They really shouldn’t be on busy roads, and they shouldn’t be on small pavements.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #62 on: April 8, 2021, 09:57:12 am »
Mainly the little scrotes riding them I would think!


You would want to think, but l saw a woman riding one the other day, with presumably her little girl standing in front.
 She couldn't have been more than six. On the road, no helmets. At least the woman had the good grace to look embarrassed when I caught her eye.
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Offline Son of Spion

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #63 on: April 8, 2021, 06:11:59 pm »
I've never used them, but I do like them being around the city. I think they are a great idea, as are the bikes for hire.

Of course, like everything else, the whole thing depends on those using it. Look at cars, motorbikes, the internet, drinking etc... Everything can be abused, but we don't just remove it because of the minority of idiots.

I drive a lot, and although plenty of the people I see on these scooters happily go through red traffic lights, I've never actually had a near miss or any actual problem around them. Contrast that with the absolute lunatics I have to avoid every single day on the road driving vehicles like lethal weapons. Lots of those seem quite happy to ignore red traffic lights when it suits too. I actually have far more problems with Deliveroo types who teararse on pavements when I'm walking and breeze through red traffic lights at night in black clothing and no lights on their bikes. Compared to many drivers and people on bikes, the scooter crowd are pretty good. I quite like having them around in a modern city, and Liverpool is just the right size to get to see all the sights on one quite easily if you are a tourist and want to get around. It allows people to get to places they'd probably not bother with if they had to walk it.

I was the same over on Kos. I hired a mountain bike and could just pop from place to place quite easily, so got to see a lot more than I would have done if walking. In Liverpool I remember the days when many people thought the Albert Dock was too far away from Church Street to be bothered walking down there. that sounds bizarre now they are linked by Liverpool ONE, but at one time many couldn't be bothered with 'the hike' down to the dock, especially if the weather was either cold/rainy or 'too hot''. These scooters and the hire bikes really do join up parts of the city that people might otherwise miss.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #64 on: April 8, 2021, 06:20:04 pm »
I do agree I think they're great for the city, but think the city needs to really think about it's road, pavement and cycle/scooter lane planning in a more joined up way if these are here to stay (which they likely are).

I love Barcelona, everytime we go we hire bikes, and it's a great city to ride around as for the most part there are dedicated cycle lanes everywhere. I've never got in a cars way, never had to dodge a pedestrian and never felt cars were near me.

So hopefully Liverpool can go a lot more this way. They can really make sure the city has dedicated cycle lanes so everyone can happily use the roads/pavements safely.

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #65 on: April 8, 2021, 06:43:11 pm »
I do agree I think they're great for the city, but think the city needs to really think about it's road, pavement and cycle/scooter lane planning in a more joined up way if these are here to stay (which they likely are).

I love Barcelona, everytime we go we hire bikes, and it's a great city to ride around as for the most part there are dedicated cycle lanes everywhere. I've never got in a cars way, never had to dodge a pedestrian and never felt cars were near me.

So hopefully Liverpool can go a lot more this way. They can really make sure the city has dedicated cycle lanes so everyone can happily use the roads/pavements safely.

Of course, there is much scope for improvement. From what I see, these scooters (and bikes) are very popular with locals and tourists alike. It's relatively early days for this kind of thing in Liverpool though, so hopefully there will be lessons learned and improvements made as time goes on which allows their use to be more seamless that it currently is.

Many other cities in Europe are years ahead of us on this kind of thing, so we need to catch up. With a good network of cycle/scooter routes throughout the city we may well see a lot more people willing to leave the car at home. This would help with congestion and pollution too.
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #66 on: April 8, 2021, 09:50:56 pm »
Of course, there is much scope for improvement. From what I see, these scooters (and bikes) are very popular with locals and tourists alike. It's relatively early days for this kind of thing in Liverpool though, so hopefully there will be lessons learned and improvements made as time goes on which allows their use to be more seamless that it currently is.

Many other cities in Europe are years ahead of us on this kind of thing, so we need to catch up. With a good network of cycle/scooter routes throughout the city we may well see a lot more people willing to leave the car at home. This would help with congestion and pollution too.

I'll believe that when I see it.  I know public transport in Liverpool is a bit shitty, but for a person to choose a scooter over a bus or train they'd have to be bloody desperate.

As others have said, I'm not strictly against scooters as a concept; it's just right now we are tripping over the fucking things, and if we're relying on THIS council to implement a coherent strategy and build a road network to accommodate them effectively then we're basically screwed.  Our best hope is that the current road remodelling work happening in the city centre helps alleviate the problem to an extent.

Personally, I think a good step would be to fit them with some kind of sound emitter that works when they're moving.  Nothing annoying, like a little siren or buzz - but just something so they don't sneak up on you, because almost nobody uses the bells, and I think most people are so unused to the sound these days they don't make the connection that it's coming from a vehicle.
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #67 on: April 8, 2021, 10:13:33 pm »
I'll believe that when I see it.  I know public transport in Liverpool is a bit shitty, but for a person to choose a scooter over a bus or train they'd have to be bloody desperate.

They are definitely taking some inner city trips off the road, by that I mean those who live in the city.

I’ve done a few already on them where I would normally take the car, and have seen others do it too. I imagine come the nicer weather, when things open, I’ll do it more too over driving or a taxi ride.

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #68 on: April 9, 2021, 07:47:28 am »
Of course, like everything else, the whole thing depends on those using it. Look at cars, motorbikes, the internet, drinking etc... Everything can be abused, but we don't just remove it because of the minority of idiots.

I drive a lot, and although plenty of the people I see on these scooters happily go through red traffic lights, I've never actually had a near miss or any actual problem around them. Contrast that with the absolute lunatics I have to avoid every single day on the road driving vehicles like lethal weapons. Lots of those seem quite happy to ignore red traffic lights when it suits too. I actually have far more problems with Deliveroo types who teararse on pavements when I'm walking and breeze through red traffic lights at night in black clothing and no lights on their bikes. Compared to many drivers and people on bikes, the scooter crowd are pretty good. I quite like having them around in a modern city, and Liverpool is just the right size to get to see all the sights on one quite easily if you are a tourist and want to get around. It allows people to get to places they'd probably not bother with if they had to walk it.

This is the crux of the issue for me. People love to moan about new or different forms of transports, but at the end of the day the most dominant form of transport we have in the form of the car will always be far more costly and dangerous then the alternatives.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/922717/reported-road-casualties-annual-report-2019.pdf

Total 2019 Road casualty statistics for the UK:
153,158 reported injuries of all severities
25,945 serious injuries
1,752 deaths

Of these deaths:
736 were car occupants
456 were pedestrians
100 were cyclists

It is safe to assume the vast majority of these deaths (and presumably severe injuries also) were caused by cars or other motorised road transport. Cars aren´t just dangerous for those in them, but for everyone else around them in a way that other forms of transport just don´t compare.

And thats not even including the deaths from pollution statistics.


I do agree I think they're great for the city, but think the city needs to really think about it's road, pavement and cycle/scooter lane planning in a more joined up way if these are here to stay (which they likely are).

This is the other crux of the issue. Infrastructure is absolutely crucial to getting people out of their cars and into greener, safer and healthier forms of transport.

But people in this country are still completely wedded to their cars. Getting people out of cars inevitably involves some unpopular decisions which many local and national politicians are not willing to make.

And even then, what cycling infrastructure developments there are are completely half arsed.

One example - I used to cycle home from town and going down Prinny Ave at rush hour was always my least favourite part. It was downright dangerous - car doors on one side, cars trying to pass by on the same lane as you (on what is a narrow 2-lane road) on the other side. Coupled with pot holes.

To add to the fun, if you tried to ride in the middle of the lane, as you are supposed to do to stop cars passing too close, despite cars having a whole other lane to pass by, you would get drivers screaming at you, beeping at you, purposefully riding too close and too fast to you, cutting you off, and on one occasion throwing a bottle of lucozade over you when we had both stopped at the roundabout. Lovely stuff.

So I was chuffed to hear they were finally building a cycle lane down the middle of Prinny Ave. The plans showed it would be a fully joined up cycle lane, with all the road islands in the middle removed - meaning I could effectively get from the Aigburth Vale side of Sefton Park all the way into town without being on the road. 

What actually ended up getting built? A cycle lane which you still need to get on the pavement or go on the road around the very busy roundabout to get onto from Princes Park. So a basic lack of planning. To make matters worse the road lobby won out, so the road islands in the middle are still there, meaning you still have to stop at every junction anyway. And then at the far end near town you again have to go back onto the busy road or pavement to get off the cycle lane.

It actually more efficient, and potentially safer (in terms of not having to get across the road to access the cycle lane) to just stay on the road. But now there is a cycle lane, any cyclists choosing to stay on the road will be subject to even more abuse from people speeding around in tonnes of metal on account of the fact they could be using the cycle lane.




And as a side note regarding the attitude of some of our lovely Labour councillors regarding cycling. I happen to know a Green councillor (family friend). When he suggested in a council meeting that £30,000 a year could be saved by axing councillors City Centre parking permits, and councillors could ride their bikes or take the bus/train to town instead, it was met by an abusive tirade from the lovely Ann O´Byrne shouting that a bunch of Middle class hippies were trying to take away the use of cars from working class women.

As if all working class woman can even afford cars in the first place, and that cycling and public transport are not cheaper forms of transport. And that the reason people need cars to get around is because the infrastructure for the alternative just isn´t there (which she as a councillor could help do something about).

Anyway I digress  :D
« Last Edit: April 9, 2021, 08:13:13 am by Indomitable_Carp »

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #69 on: April 9, 2021, 08:08:01 am »
I share your disappointment with the Princes Ave cycle lane. It's crap. I get on coming out of Princes Park, where your choice is to go left on the pavement, across the zebra crossing, narrow tight corner on the pavement (all unmarked for cyclists) then stop for the lights on an awkward downhill slope - or get straight on the busy roundabout and get in the right hand lane to get on the cycle lane, with cars behind you.

Luckily I turn down the street with the mosque on halfway down Princes, further towards town it's an utter mess and in no way solves problems for cyclists.
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #70 on: April 9, 2021, 08:43:35 am »
One of the good things about Andy Burnham, is he has a vision for Transport in Gtr Manchester that will make introducing scooters etc as a viable option. I used to commute by motorbike, only got the car as my Father in Law bought me it for Christmas to calm the wife as she hated me riding the bike due to the dickheads in cars nearly killing me, cars are why I wouldn't cycle to work. This is what they did along the road our office is on to protect cyclists, its this kind of thinking that is needed, especially as more of us switch to WFH

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #71 on: April 9, 2021, 08:51:24 am »
That’s what a lot of the cycle lanes in Barcelona are like.

They’ve started doing a lot of that in Liverpool too - although a bit half arsed with shitty plastic ones which are already missing / bent over.

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #72 on: April 9, 2021, 08:51:30 am »
Really starting to dislike these things. Typically faster than an average bicycle and much quieter, and bicycles are already pretty quiet. Saw two girls a pair the wrong way around Elliot Street the other day. Granted, it was late, but just one car coming the other way could have led to a nasty result. Something about them just seems to make people forget about traffic laws.

I'd rather just have an electric bicycle.  They're a lot safer control wise, being a traditional design, and surely can't be that much more expensive than an e-scooter?

For that matter, if you can get a scooter to do 80mph, will we see electric versions of motorbikes soon?

They already exist, but the big issue is the weight of the batteries. Harley have one called the Live Wire and an American company called Lightning do the LS-218, the 218 is its top speed in MPH. The bike weighs about 40kg more than my 1999 R1 and that kind of weight does make a sports bike handle worse, but you can guarantee the Japanese factories will get the tech sorted eventually. Cost is an issue too, as you are looking at $30,000 for the LS-218, but eventually the costs should come down.

The IOM TT e bike lap record is 121mph, that was the petrol lap record in the late 80's, its about 12/13 mph slower than a petrol bike, but still very very quick.
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #73 on: April 9, 2021, 08:53:34 am »
That’s what a lot of the cycle lanes in Barcelona are like.

They’ve started doing a lot of that in Liverpool too - although a bit half arsed with shitty plastic ones which are already missing / bent over.

First time I saw it was Menorca about 6 years ago, we stayed in a villa and the whole street outside was like that, i was well impressed.
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Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #74 on: April 9, 2021, 09:53:09 am »
That’s what a lot of the cycle lanes in Barcelona are like.

The Barcelona cycle lanes tend to look like this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zicla.com%2Fen%2F191229_zebra-13-cycle-lane-separator-barcelona-2%2F&psig=AOvVaw1z5TrCIILgc71zVLDIDh7C&ust=1618044299033000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCMDX3vTi8O8CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAQ


There is still a few issue with the cycle lanes - the main one being when there is cars making left-hand turnings across the cycle lanes. Bikes are meant to have the right of way, but it doesn´t always work like that so you get some cars turning into the cycle lane without looking (or sometimes looking and just doing it anyway).

There are also quite a few cycle lanes that just end up in shared pavement with pedestrians. 

But generally speaking the cycle lanes are great, and they are getting better and longer all the time. The vast majority are segregated. Post-Covid there is even an increasing number of fully pedestrianised/cycle-lane streets in which cars are banned from completely (excepting deliveries, maintainance and builders etc)

Absolutely light years ahead of anything in the UK, and Barcelona is hardly alone in Europe with this either.

There is also a great bike-hire scheme here for residents, which includes electric bikes if you need to get uphill (or just can´t be arsed with the peddling the mechanical ones as can feel pretty heavy). There are stations for parking and picking them up all over the place, and they are constantly increasing in number also.

Electric Scooters are nearly entirely privately owned though - but again they have the cycle lanes to move on.
« Last Edit: April 9, 2021, 10:44:03 am by Indomitable_Carp »

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #75 on: April 9, 2021, 09:59:45 am »
Agree that the cycling (and scootering) infrastructure really needs improving. When they do build something, it's often not useful and makes riding more complicated. Really it needs to be convinient and easy to use, so that cycling around town is quicker and easier than driving. That is what has happened in countries where more people cycle, it's just the easiest way to get around. Liverpool would be ideal for cycling, the city centre is relatively compact and also not too steep. I've seen a statistic that 40% of residents don't have access to a car. Good cycling infrastructure would give them independence and not needing to spend money on taxis or public transport.


But lots if things that get build are so half arsed, it's comical.
On Park Lane there are two cycle lanes. Going into town, coming from Jamaica St, it first starts off as a good, segregated lane. Then, after a couple of sharp turns, it becomes a lane on the pavement (so people walk all over it). Then it just joins the road again before reaching St Anne's.
Coming from town, it starts a couple of feet after the crossing, so that you have to ride on the road, stop, do a sharp turn, get on the lane (often this point is blocked by cars), then follow the lane, until it just stops at rhe roundabout with no obvious way to join the road. Both ways, it's easier and safer to stay on the road.

One of my pet hates is what they did with the Runcorn bridge. When they closed the bridge, they said they would prioritise cycling and walking over it. They actually build a great cycle lane on the bridge itself, but on the approaches they just put a dual use sign up on the pavement. Getting to and off the pavement means frequent road crossings and stops, and it's difficult to actually get onto the narrow pavement on the Runcorn side. Meanwhile, the road traffic on it consists of lots of HGVs from the Widnes depot, and it's really dangerous to ride on the road itself. So now they put signs up saying "cyclists stay in dedicated lane". But the lane is just the shared use pavement! Why couldn't they build a proper cycle lane all across the bridge, including the approaches? It's the only way to cross the river by bike or foot, the next place is Warrington. The pavement is also quite narrow on the Runcorn side, and really busy with people walking across the bridge.
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #76 on: April 9, 2021, 06:13:44 pm »
They are definitely taking some inner city trips off the road, by that I mean those who live in the city.

I’ve done a few already on them where I would normally take the car, and have seen others do it too. I imagine come the nicer weather, when things open, I’ll do it more too over driving or a taxi ride.

I guess we will have to see.  Can't imagine they're very practical if you're going shopping though1  Seen a few people trying to hang shopping bags off the front of them - looked bloody dangerous to me! ;D
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #77 on: April 9, 2021, 06:16:47 pm »
I guess we will have to see.  Can't imagine they're very practical if you're going shopping though1  Seen a few people trying to hang shopping bags off the front of them - looked bloody dangerous to me! ;D

Nah it's easy unless the bag is really heavy, in which case a backpack helps. Same as with a bike to be honest.

I've seen loads from my apartment going out and using them for quick trips around the city - the sort of trips you'd walk if pushed / have time but likely get the car because it's easier.

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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #78 on: April 9, 2021, 06:19:44 pm »
Agree that the cycling (and scootering) infrastructure really needs improving. When they do build something, it's often not useful and makes riding more complicated. Really it needs to be convinient and easy to use, so that cycling around town is quicker and easier than driving. That is what has happened in countries where more people cycle, it's just the easiest way to get around. Liverpool would be ideal for cycling, the city centre is relatively compact and also not too steep. I've seen a statistic that 40% of residents don't have access to a car. Good cycling infrastructure would give them independence and not needing to spend money on taxis or public transport.


But lots if things that get build are so half arsed, it's comical.
On Park Lane there are two cycle lanes. Going into town, coming from Jamaica St, it first starts off as a good, segregated lane. Then, after a couple of sharp turns, it becomes a lane on the pavement (so people walk all over it). Then it just joins the road again before reaching St Anne's.
Coming from town, it starts a couple of feet after the crossing, so that you have to ride on the road, stop, do a sharp turn, get on the lane (often this point is blocked by cars), then follow the lane, until it just stops at rhe roundabout with no obvious way to join the road. Both ways, it's easier and safer to stay on the road.


See this is my problem.  They get the scooters before they've got the infrastructure to handle them.  And yes, I'm sure it's difficult to build a system if you're not sure how popular the uptake will be, and where the best routes can be built with minimal disruption; but you'd think they'd be able to make some educated guesses. And as you say, too much is half-arsed, ad-hoc, so I'm not confident that the situation will improve in the short to medium term.

Building routes where there is space to build them will be pretty pointless if they're not places where people need or want to go. At least the work around Lime Street and the Haymarket will probably have space for them - if the riders can be bothered to make use of it.
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Re: e-scooters
« Reply #79 on: April 9, 2021, 06:23:04 pm »
Nah it's easy unless the bag is really heavy, in which case a backpack helps. Same as with a bike to be honest.

I've seen loads from my apartment going out and using them for quick trips around the city - the sort of trips you'd walk if pushed / have time but likely get the car because it's easier.

I can't really comment, as I pretty much walk everywhere most days.  It takes me 45 minutes to walk into town from where I live by Dingle Lane, I'm happy to do that most days.  I wouldn't feel safe on a scooter with a backpack of heavy shopping.  I'd probably feel overbalanced.  I'd rather walk it home, or get a bus.
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