Author Topic: FSG discussion thread  (Read 740773 times)

Offline Henry Gale

  • Margot Robbie Stalker
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,707
  • My name is Henry Gale. I'm from Minnesota.
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2022, 01:42:07 pm »
Amen.

Tired of this argument always boiling down to City / Newcastle / Sportwashing etc ... barely even mentions us as a club anymore and what we are doing.

Because apparently the only owners are people who refuse to invest their own big money into playing staff or sports washers owned by a state. There's nothing in-between.

Offline Paul JH

  • Elmer Fudd. I'm a witch! A WITCH!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,279
  • "Don't do drugs..."
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2022, 01:43:36 pm »
I can’t be arsed to look it up but how many crystal ball posts were there around that time that predicted just how dramatically our collective form would fall off a cliff together with all the injuries we’d have? Were there any posts similar to all the current in depth hindsight driven analysis of why we’ve suddenly become shite?

Maybe because now the ageing squad that has been allowed to get to this stage, ageing players, relying on injury ravaged players with no replacements and young lads who aren't ready, and making loan signings like Arthur is now starting to show in performances and the discussion can then start? Maybe?

The 'crystal ball' posts were there for anyone who noticed ... and anyone with half a brain could see ages ago that our midfield was ageing, injury prone, and nothing was being done to address it. And now it is showing. So it's not hindsight at all.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 01:45:34 pm by Paul JH »
Sarcastic Net Pest and Sanctimonious Arse.

Offline JasonF

  • Frenkie says "Ilaix, don't do it"
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,866
    • Funny T-Shirts
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2022, 01:43:47 pm »
How?

It's not that long since (after Díaz signed pretty much) the general consensus was it was the strongest squad we've ever assembled. We legitimately had two players for every position bar RB and RW. Since then we've lost Mané, Origi and Taki and gained Núñez and Carvalho. You could argue it's a little weaker and Mané is a big loss (especially with Jota & Díaz injured) but I'd say it's about the same or a minimal drop off at worst.

I think saying there's been no investment is obviously hyperbole. We have a very strong squad, though clearly we misjudged the midfielder situation. The injuries have ruined us and there's no team (even Man City) who could cope with the level of injuries we've suffered. No amount of squad building can mitigate for losing the players we've been losing to injury this season.

Offline keyop

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,890
  • Always eleven, acting as one.
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2022, 01:44:07 pm »
The other point about how other teams are now spending big is - where do they get their money from? Many of them are relatively small clubs with little commercial reach beyond their local fanbase, and many have smaller stadiums.

Are they taking a gamble, adding debt to the club, or are the owners somehow injecting cash for no return?
I've got OCD, but I prefer to call it CDO so it's in alphabetical order.

Offline Mozology

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,129
  • FSG, spend some fucking money, miserable bastards
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2022, 01:45:54 pm »
but I get the feeling a lot of people on here would rather be supporting an Arsenal or a Leicester, because being able to claim some kind of imaginary moral superiority to the rest of the league is far more important to them than actually winning. Don't get me started on the people who think the club has some kind of moral obligation to make a profit for FSG every year, and that anything less isn't 'financially sustainable'.

Hear hear

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2022, 01:48:46 pm »
Because apparently the only owners are people who refuse to invest their own big money into playing staff or sports washers owned by a state. There's nothing in-between.

Who are the ones in between out of interest, in the PL? The good ones we should be aiming for? Leave out the ones who took out mega loans to buy players though, I don’t think that really class’s as ‘their own money’
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,644
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2022, 01:49:13 pm »
In what way are we not competing with those teams…?

We are. I am discussing the general discourse and in terms of the wider debate because of what they spent in the summer they are being thrown in.

In terms of resources they are not in the same league as us. We should be competing with United and Chelsea financially.

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2022, 01:53:08 pm »
We are. I am discussing the general discourse and in terms of the wider debate because of what they spent in the summer they are being thrown in.

In terms of resources they are not in the same league as us. We should be competing with United and Chelsea financially.

Chelsea who until this season were owned by a sports washer..? United…really? You maybe need to reword as ‘compete in terms of transfer spend’ because by most measures it looks like we do compete with United, and have just overtaken them financially, whilst they have a crumbling old stadium and training ground.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Davidbowie

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,936
  • The Thin White Duke
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2022, 01:58:08 pm »
You don't get the impression that FSG are absolutely dedicated to ensuring Liverpool are THE best club in the league or in europe.

They have the best manager in world football coaching their team and they've backed him in recent years with loan signings of Ozan Kabak & Arthur Melo, transfer tribunal payments for 17 years olds from Fulham and a £500k punt on a championship defender to name just a few examples. They operate on a sell to buy basis. There's no reason why a club of Liverpool's size should need to. It's actually embarrassing that we are outspent by midtable dross, whereas our top 4 rival clubs blow us out the water with spending. Why is this? What is the logic behind it?

I think what I want to see from FSG is a bit more passion for the club, they too should want the BEST players in europe playing for us.

We can't compete with City financially, and no one expects that, but we're supposedly making more money than Man Utd, and certainly have a higher commerical revenue than Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs etc - so start acting like it!
FAME makes a man take things over

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,969
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2022, 01:59:29 pm »
Who are the ones in between out of interest, in the PL? The good ones we should be aiming for? Leave out the ones who took out mega loans to buy players though, I don’t think that really class’s as ‘their own money’
Why not? Do you think businesses never get debt financing in order to make improvements - improvements that end up expanding their revenue streams? Is it somehow cheating if a company doesn't run a fiscal profit every single year?

Because we don't need to look at other clubs, we can simply look at our own revenues over the last few years. They dramatically increased when we got top class players in, started regularly competing at the top end of the Premier League and Champions League and heavily boosted commercial revenue. We made profits too. But that commercial revenue is still far lower than, say, Bayern's and there's still growth to be had there.

We're getting back to post-covid levels now and the overall money pot is also getting bigger, but for some reason people think football is still at the 2020 austerity level and that we can't keep doing what we'd done every single year beforehand.

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,644
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2022, 02:00:30 pm »
Chelsea who until this season were owned by a sports washer..? United…really? You maybe need to reword as ‘compete in terms of transfer spend’ because by most measures it looks like we do compete with United, and have just overtaken them financially, whilst they have a crumbling old stadium and training ground.

Neither club going forward should really be more optimistic than us about success. When this discussion comes up however then a lot of fans put them beyond our reach financially.

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2022, 02:01:17 pm »
Chelsea who until this season were owned by a sports washer..? United…really? You maybe need to reword as ‘compete in terms of transfer spend’ because by most measures it looks like we do compete with United, and have just overtaken them financially, whilst they have a crumbling old stadium and training ground.

Asset allocation is something that should be debated in this thread.  Mostly it'll be complaining that FSG should pay for the stadium and training ground improvements themselves but, since they told us from the beginning they weren't going to put their own money in, maybe we can skip the complaining and everyone saying the increase in value of the club means they should pay for it themselves, and discuss the merits of investing in infrastructure with the money that is available or if it's better to do what United did and invest in the playing staff while letting the infrastructure go to shit. 

Are we in a similar position to where Arsenal were when they built their new stadium.  We sacrifice spending in the transfer market, rely on a world class manager, and get the infrastructure to a world class level which, when paid off, means we'll have both great facilities and extra money to spend on transfer's/wages?

Offline Samie

  • The next Pharaoh of Egypt. The Ev of drafting! Rumoured to be the 7th, we may need that old magic back! The Timekeeper, ask him what time the action starts.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 65,936
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2022, 02:03:30 pm »
How do we hide this thread from Al?

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2022, 02:04:05 pm »
Why not? Do you think businesses never get debt financing in order to make improvements - improvements that end up expanding their revenue streams?


Didn't we do this with the facility improvements that we have done/currently are doing?

Offline killer-heels

  • Hates everyone and everything. Including YOU! Negativity not just for Christmas. Thinks 'irony' means 'metallic'......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 75,644
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2022, 02:05:58 pm »
Asset allocation is something that should be debated in this thread.  Mostly it'll be complaining that FSG should pay for the stadium and training ground improvements themselves but, since they told us from the beginning they weren't going to put their own money in, maybe we can skip the complaining and everyone saying the increase in value of the club means they should pay for it themselves, and discuss the merits of investing in infrastructure with the money that is available or if it's better to do what United did and invest in the playing staff while letting the infrastructure go to shit. 

Are we in a similar position to where Arsenal were when they built their new stadium.  We sacrifice spending in the transfer market, rely on a world class manager, and get the infrastructure to a world class level which, when paid off, means we'll have both great facilities and extra money to spend on transfer's/wages?

Will be a great 15 years in the meantime.

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2022, 02:06:38 pm »
Will be a great 15 years in the meantime.

Does anyone know what the timeline for paying off the internal loans to FSG are?

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2022, 02:06:42 pm »
Neither club going forward should really be more optimistic than us about success. When this discussion comes up however then a lot of fans put them beyond our reach financially.

They’re not remotely but they’re not the ones we compete with are they? The ones we compete with can post a 93 point season and then go and drop an investment of probably £300 million on Haaland, and not even get questioned on it. And there’s another one now with Newcastle. There will be in Europe with PSG. There’ll be more too I’m sure. If sports washers didn’t exist I’d be supremely confident of our success in the future, but then if they didn’t exist we’d have at least three more league titles and I suspect probably more European Cups.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline didi shamone

  • Too old for fighting
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,228
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2022, 02:07:22 pm »
For me it's about what they do next. We've won everything and we would have won a lot more if it wasn't for the sportswashing cheats. And yes Klopp was the main driver of that.

However now we need investment in the playing squad. Midfield being the obvious area. There's no Coutinho to fund purchases so for the first time so we need to spend quite a bit. If nothing happens in January I'll be concerned.  If we just target one player in the summer, then it's a serious problem.
For now I'll just try and enjoy the games..

Offline Coolie High

  • bury Regular. My opinions are facts, FYI. (whisper it but doesn't understand midfielders)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,606
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2022, 02:11:02 pm »
Some good posts in here.

Offline Chakan

  • Chaka Chaka.....is in love with Aristotle but only for votes. The proud owner of some very private piles and an inflatable harem! Winner of RAWK's Carabao Cup captian contest.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 91,079
  • Internet Terrorist lvl VI
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2022, 02:11:18 pm »
How do we hide this thread from Al?

You don't, the point of this thread is for Al.

Offline Coolie High

  • bury Regular. My opinions are facts, FYI. (whisper it but doesn't understand midfielders)
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,606
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2022, 02:12:06 pm »
How do we hide this thread from Al?

 ;D

Offline Sheer Magnetism

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,969
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2022, 02:16:35 pm »
Are we in a similar position to where Arsenal were when they built their new stadium.  We sacrifice spending in the transfer market, rely on a world class manager, and get the infrastructure to a world class level which, when paid off, means we'll have both great facilities and extra money to spend on transfer's/wages?
Arsenal realised quite quickly they made the wrong decision in that regard. The extra broadcast and commercial money they'd have got through finishing higher in the league and Europe would have significantly outweighed what they got from the new stadium. And that stadium has the second highest ticket prices in Europe.

Offline mickeydocs

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,364
  • Jurgen Klopp - best Liverpool coach since Paisley
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2022, 02:18:56 pm »
They got extremely lucky on two occasions, firstly getting Klopp to become our manager, he could've easily said no. Secondly, getting over 140 million for Coutinho, without that insanity from Barca we don't get Becker and Virg

The news about Edwards going to Utd is depressing as fuck. The best behind the scenes man in world football and he's going to them c*nts.

Their first piece of luck was getting LFC at such a low price.
It’s easy to believe when it’s going well.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2022, 02:19:11 pm »
Didn't we do this with the facility improvements that we have done/currently are doing?
Nope, just with the Main Stand several years ago.

Fairly sure we had a conversation about it, as some people around the time had fallen into a binary misunderstanding that some debt (from business's own owners) is bad and no debt is good.

Some posters thought that other posters proposing FSG follow their own initial model for the current Annie Road extension were proposing something "unsustainable" and I think some of the more extreme defenders of FSG suggested that those suggesting following the Main Stand model probably wanted the club to be owned by a state/sportswashers.

As has been alluded to by many, it's been quite hard to have reasonable conversations about FSG for some time! It's a good effort in the initial post I reckon.

Offline bornandbRED

  • ... an ESL super fan. aka physioSTALKER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,619
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2022, 02:19:16 pm »
Everything points towards stagnation in the last couple of years, but that’s been done to death. Edwards leaving and seemingly still being open to jobs in football is a big concern.

FSG’s modus operandi has never changed, and it likely never will. We were able to pull some rabbits out of the hat with Mane/Salah/Matip/Wijnaldum/Robertson etc, and then the big Coutinho windfall allowed us to go and spend an unprecedented amount on some genuine world class footballers. That formula likely isn’t going to be repeatable, but what’s more concerning is that it doesn’t even look like we’re trying. There are gaping holes in the squad every window, and we’re refusing to address them to the extent we’re scrambling for last minute loan deals like we’re a Pompey under Redknapp.

I’d love to know what Klopp really thinks about the stewardship of the club - or Edwards, for that matter. What a pint that would be.

Offline IgorBobbins

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,889
  • BOBBINS!
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2022, 02:23:25 pm »
I’d love to know what Klopp really thinks about the stewardship of the club - or Edwards, for that matter. What a pint that would be.
Damn right it would be


Offline keyop

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,890
  • Always eleven, acting as one.
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2022, 02:24:48 pm »
You don't, the point of this thread is for Al.
Exactly, and others too.
I've got OCD, but I prefer to call it CDO so it's in alphabetical order.

Offline Jayo10

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2022, 02:38:17 pm »
Will get slated for any negativity towards Jurgen, but genuinely don't think his managerial/tactical philosophy is conducive to having the same set of players for a long period. The message gets stale.

Don't get me wrong, tactically hes very good. But theres an element of cult of personality aswell. You can lose the ability to inspire the same faces, and we have the bones of the same squad since 2018-19. There needs to be constant refreshment, new faces pushing the older ones in order to maintain their positions.

Klopp can be simply too loyal to players going over the hill too, expecting the same guys to go to the well time and time again. Its noticeable that himself and Pep Guardiola never sign ex players. I think its telling, its possibly hard to motivate ex players to the level you want when they have seen your methods before.

Rebuilding is obviously so different to the initial build. Klopp is the perfect manager (together with Edwards nous) for the FSG initial build of Liverpool. Won't cost a fortune as he doesn't bleat about transfer funds and considering what went before, its sheer positivity and sense. But Klopp has never experienced a clean rebuild, knowing exactly when a player has gone off a cliff. I'd say Mane would still be here if he didn't choose to pursue another challenge, when in reality a really smart manager (dare I say it, like old Whiskey nose) knows when a key player (who may still be at a high level) needs to be replaced.

And this refreshment of talent costs money, and unfortunately for a club who are so good at getting ££££ for deadwood, when all of your deadwood has been expunged then you are relying on getting players sales (current performing stars) absolutely bang on in order to raise funds.

I think our model is not set up for sustained success. It was pretty much a smash and grab job, for which the ownership (who made no promises that they would spend their own money), Klopp and his team, and Michael Edwards deserve great credit. But mainly the manager, who has managed to win everything during a time of lavish spending by other clubs. In this current climate, its simply impossible to stay on top, both from a footballing perspective and financial perspective.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 02:42:37 pm by Jayo10 »

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2022, 02:40:23 pm »
Their first piece of luck was getting LFC at such a low price.

And that bit of luck wouldn’t have been possible without pining for new owners after the previous one had taken us ‘as far as he could’.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2022, 02:42:28 pm »
Yes, they have done a lot right, or better said, have often enough learned from their mistakes and corrected course. But sometimes, life actually presents you with singular, unique moments. There will be no room for course correction later, no second attempt to make things right. You either do the right thing and use this moment, or you don't and it is gone. Forever. It takes wisdom to identify these moments and courage to make the right choice when they come. And here, more than anywhere else, in these pivotal moments have FSG failed miserably.

First example for me is their failure to maximise the time we have with Klopp. If we are to analyse their behaviour, they simply do not understand just how unique Klopp, and his bond to the club, actually is. There is no Klopp tree to go and pick another one from, but he is in fact treated like just another employee, seemingly replaceable, and they refuse to tweak and alter their charted course and methods in order to avoid what we are doing this season - wasting the precious time. They have their schedules, projections, goals and expectations - and they play the spreadsheet game. Reality though has a nasty way of taking your carefully curated data and making you look stupid. And boy do FSG sometimes manage to make themselves, and us, look stupid while attempting to be the most clever operators around.

Second example, and it's one I'll never forgive them for as long as they are around, is the way they missed the train when we were riding high - specifically the summer after becoming Champions. There are no words for just how fucked up that was. You have a literal football fairytale unfolding. Pure fucking magic. End of the decades long wait, amazing team praised by everyone across the globe. You could have your pick of players, stars and prospects alike, who would find it incredibly hard to resist this gravitational pull of what felt like destiny enveloping our club. And what do you do? You twiddle your fucking thumbs and carry on with your spreadsheet masterplan. I'll never get over that one, never. In hindsight we were all too drunk on joy to care and the world was complicated and insane - but alarms should have been screaming.

I don't know how to interpret any of this. We are a stable club, enjoying more success than we have in a long time. On the other hand, I feel we are banging against the ceiling of what we can do with these owners. It's not only imposed by funds - it is also imposed by their inability to understand moments like those, to be more flexible and less risk-averse when genuine opportunity presents itself. This won't go away I'm afraid. That is how they operate. Problem for us is - we aren't competing in arena where all follow the same ground rules. And Klopp or no Klopp, good intentions or not - we could be left behind once again, bemoaning what could have been and still hoping the spreadsheet will deliver again. When in fact it never did. It was always the organic, weird, unpredictable moments we managed to turn in our favour that made us win - yet we fail to accept them as important in how the club operates.


Superb post.

We need to remember that they bought LFC for c£300m.

It's now got a theoretical value of c£4bn

That's an immense profit to have made on their asset in 12 years. Was helped by getting the club for an undervalued price (thanks in large part to the fans' campaign).

But the asset value is based on us continuing to be challenging for the top honours - and the internatioanl media attention that this brings (which builds the commercial income).

Fast forward 2/3 years with little investment in the squad, and it's not inconceivable that - worst case scenario - we're in mid-table purgatory with other clubs having invested in playing squads more and Klopp having left.

What would the asset value be then? Take off £1bn? £1.5bn? £2bn?

Look at the situation like a big mansion house. Looks mint, with strong structure and well-maintained. Worth a fortune. It's really desirable and people want to see it, be involved with it. Yet do only minimal work to maintain it, spending very little, and you'll see the cracks appear, the structure deteriorate; it'll soon look a mess. A few years down the line and people don't want to see it, don't want to be associated with it. The value drops. Spending a fair amount to keep up the maintenance and keep it being desirable, and you'll be more than repaid in the asset's value growing. But neglect it, spend little on keeping it pristine, and you lose more.

That's where FSG are. To continue the analogy, they have been lucky in getting a great caretaker and maintenance team that has worked miracles on the meagre budget they've been given, and the guys behind the scenes have pulled off some great business in selling and buying to fund new things at great prices. But that caretaker won't be around forever and there's less overpriced heirlooms left to sell to fund the maintenance and improvements. The owners now face the choice to keep their money in their pockets and let the asset begin to deteriorate - along with it's value. Or spend a bit to fully renovate the parts that need replacing to keep the asset in gret condition and keep its value.


The optimist in me thinks that, whilst we've been competitive and winning with this squad, they've only released enough money to keep it ticking over. But they've always been aware that, sometime down the line, they're going to have to make a substantial investment in the playing squad if they're to keep us competitive (and keep the asset value high). We've reached that time now, so that the next 2/3 transfer windows are when we need to make that big investment in the playing squad.

I think, at this stage, we probably need £200-£250m. Two very high quality midfielders coming into their prime. A back-up right-back at the level of Tsimikas. That immediately improves the first XI and overall squad depth. As well, it would be useful to get a very promising, young, fast right-sided attacker that could pick up some games from Salah. And then, depending on how the club view van den Berg (and perhaps Koumetio), a young, promising CB.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Redric1970

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,926
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2022, 02:43:27 pm »
Fair play keyop starting this thread.

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2022, 02:46:15 pm »
a club who are so good at getting ££££ for deadwood,


Not always. We've tried to get players off the books who have no future here but, for whatever reason (mainly over-pricing in relation to what the market is willing to pay), have really struggled with a few.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2022, 02:55:21 pm »

Superb post.

We need to remember that they bought LFC for c£300m.

It's now got a theoretical value of c£4bn

That's an immense profit to have made on their asset in 12 years. Was helped by getting the club for an undervalued price (thanks in large part to the fans' campaign).

But the asset value is based on us continuing to be challenging for the top honours - and the internatioanl media attention that this brings (which builds the commercial income).

Fast forward 2/3 years with little investment in the squad, and it's not inconceivable that - worst case scenario - we're in mid-table purgatory with other clubs having invested in playing squads more and Klopp having left.

What would the asset value be then? Take off £1bn? £1.5bn? £2bn?

Look at the situation like a big mansion house. Looks mint, with strong structure and well-maintained. Worth a fortune. It's really desirable and people want to see it, be involved with it. Yet do only minimal work to maintain it, spending very little, and you'll see the cracks appear, the structure deteriorate; it'll soon look a mess. A few years down the line and people don't want to see it, don't want to be associated with it. The value drops. Spending a fair amount to keep up the maintenance and keep it being desirable, and you'll be more than repaid in the asset's value growing. But neglect it, spend little on keeping it pristine, and you lose more.

That's where FSG are. To continue the analogy, they have been lucky in getting a great caretaker and maintenance team that has worked miracles on the meagre budget they've been given, and the guys behind the scenes have pulled off some great business in selling and buying to fund new things at great prices. But that caretaker won't be around forever and there's less overpriced heirlooms left to sell to fund the maintenance and improvements. The owners now face the choice to keep their money in their pockets and let the asset begin to deteriorate - along with it's value. Or spend a bit to fully renovate the parts that need replacing to keep the asset in gret condition and keep its value.


The optimist in me thinks that, whilst we've been competitive and winning with this squad, they've only released enough money to keep it ticking over. But they've always been aware that, sometime down the line, they're going to have to make a substantial investment in the playing squad if they're to keep us competitive (and keep the asset value high). We've reached that time now, so that the next 2/3 transfer windows are when we need to make that big investment in the playing squad.

I think, at this stage, we probably need £200-£250m. Two very high quality midfielders coming into their prime. A back-up right-back at the level of Tsimikas. That immediately improves the first XI and overall squad depth. As well, it would be useful to get a very promising, young, fast right-sided attacker that could pick up some games from Salah. And then, depending on how the club view van den Berg (and perhaps Koumetio), a young, promising CB.

The house analogy rarely works ;)

There’s a very valid debate about where they apportion money….but they’re not taking money out of the club, go and stand outside Anfield and talk about neglecting the club. Rather than thinking they don’t need to do anything I suspect it’s closer to a collective over confidence that we’re so good at what we do we can focus on other areas.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Kennys from heaven

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,570
  • "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2022, 02:55:49 pm »
The sooner they are gone, the better.
OK.

Then let's waste no more time: The argument is won. FSG are out. They're gone.

According to the many arguments in countless threads on here (which I have summarised as best I can and posted below) and in other sites against FSG and club ownership as a whole, our new owners:

a) Do not conduct themselves like of City, Madrid, Barca, Utd, etc owners and are completely compliant with the laws and rules of football's governing bodies.
b) Are totally accepted and welcomed by the entire fanbase
c) Have unlimited funds to do whatever we want whenever we want (a-la City/Newcastle)
d) Are not an oil state, Russian gangster, have obtained or gained money from any questionable sources, paid all taxes, are not human rights abusers or have any character flaw(s)
e) Stay completely in the background, have no say in negotiating contracts or anything whatsoever to do with the football side
f) Never fuck up and if they do, accept they must be replaced immediately by someone who doesn't
g) Have no other interests outside of Liverpool Football club
h) Be completely impervious to the utter mess the World and more prevalently this countries economy is in right now and for the foreseeable future
i) Deliver on a long-term strategy that means absolutely zero leveraged debt of any kind agains the club.
j) Deliver at least one major trophy every season
k) Must produce financial results that show us in the black from now on in.
l) Have to be from the City or lifelong Liverpool fans

So who are they?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 02:58:36 pm by Kennys from heaven »
The most important people at Liverpool Football Club are the people who want to be here

Offline KillieRed

  • Jaro a.k.a. goatjumpingqueuefucker
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,209
  • Nemo me impune lacessit.
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2022, 03:00:07 pm »
The diddy men (they had nothing to do with the tax case).
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

Offline Kennys from heaven

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,570
  • "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2022, 03:00:54 pm »
The diddy men (they had nothing to do with the tax case).
:lmao
The most important people at Liverpool Football Club are the people who want to be here

Offline has gone odd

  • a tru-ro...I mean....red!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,409
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2022, 03:00:56 pm »
Not quite as black and white as its made out to be.

FSG have allowed us to buy some great players. They were, largely "good potential" but a few have been top class on purchase. Our wage structure is one the highest, not THE highest though, obviously. On the whole funds are used to equip our squad adequately. That is until this summer, though the distraction is a high fee paid for Nunez, that would not have happened if Mane stays, I assume.

What the real killer has been this season though, is not solely FSG being tight fisted this summer, when everyone and their dog was on a deranged spending frenzy. It is, you know .. injuries, fucktonnes of them, more than the last near disaster season we had. Deep down you know it, if we were on a winning streak this discussion is not happening.

With all that being said, it was a terrible summer, I mean Melo was a disaster waiting to happen. That has been the one time I thought, FSG, you penny pinching gits, get us a non broken player.




- all in my opinion of course -

Offline crewlove

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2022, 03:05:49 pm »
I think FSG got lucky with Klopp's appointment and PSG completely changing landscape of transfer market and buying Neymar (and, further us selling Coutinho to Barcelona). That enabled us to do significant business and everybody knows rest of the story. We did the hard part with getting to the top, but completely haven't used our position of strength. I remember many people saying that once we get CL or more we will buy top prospect and even better players, but in the end we were are reactive as we could be. Unfortunately or fortunately, football does indeed moves quickly and we are good example of that. Now other clubs caught up, we let our rot a little bit and everybody can see the results.

Main aim of the football club is to play and win or at least try to get better. On top of that, this is where huge portion of overall revenue comes as well. You win things, get prize money and also grow comercially. While it's good to update or expand general infrastructure, i.e. stadium or trainings ground, I don't think it should come at a cost of improving squad (it does improve general valuation though). I don't have Deloitte or other company's football-related report in front of me, but I believe out of three main components of football club's revenue, the one associated with matchday weights the least. So if we were to miss on CL next season, we would immediately have a problem as we would lose fairly significant part of our revenue and none of FSG's moves or investment will make up for that. I don't think anybody will have a basis to push with fiscally-reponsible narrative or something associated with it.

My main grip is we struck gold with recruitment of players few years ago, but since then we've always have something that we could improve on. Most of the times we didn't try or in the other examples missed (nobody could expect what version of Naby we would get). On top of that, we have one of the best if not the best coaches we could have - both extremely good at his job and one that understands the city as well. And it is difficult for me to think that he was supported in a way he should be. I was really surprised that we went into 22/23 season in this state. For me even watching last third of previous season, you could see cracks. It felt like we had to play on 100% or even more to get it over the line way too many times. Yet, we are here with nearly unchanged core while other teams improved and we see the results.

As of now I hope at some point everybody magically will get better, we won't have any more of injuries (ekhm) and we will finish in top 4 maybe top 3. If not then I think we will have a problem, but in my opinion not an undeserved one.

Offline lionel_messias

  • likes pulling cocker spaniels out of Kim Kardassian's ass
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,449
  • 'You can throw your plan in the purple bin'
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2022, 03:05:55 pm »
I think they have been decent owners, who have been respectful to the fans and City, 90% of the time anyway and their dedication to growing our revenues, whilst not completely altruistic, is at least sound and sensible - in a crazy sport.

The key point for me is 'opportunity cost'. We have Klopp now for a finite amount of time and then he's not coming back.

You read a quote from Antonio Conte saying, "I can't keep producing miracles" and apparently he's getting further backing in the January window.

Yet Klopp IS expected to keep producing miracles and he seems quiet about doing so. You are looking at Harvey Elliot and Carvalho getting major game time in the Premier League. Both should be developed gradually but they are in the firing line, with points on the line.

So yes, this is the moment. We've stagnated in the squad since 2019. Every window we all go on the same merry-go round of shiny transfer yearning, arguments, and then horror-crashing to ground as the window 'slams shut'.

It simply can't be the same this January and next Summer. If it is, we are fucked as a team that can realistically challenge for the two biggest trophies that define the big sides.

As smart people have said on here, if we fudge it again now Liverpool move into a similar place as late-era Wenger Arsenal: top four being the trophy and the occasional cup.

Follow me on twatter: @JDMessias

Offline Suareznumber7

  • Gullible. Lost in the modern world, thinks all tweets are true.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,906
Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2022, 03:07:07 pm »
Will get slated for any negativity towards Jurgen, but genuinely don't think his managerial/tactical philosophy is conducive to having the same set of players for a long period. The message gets stale.

I don't think the message gets stale. I think it's more that his preferred style of play is incredibly demanding and players aren't able to do it for a long period.  Probably 3-4 years I would think for most is the max that they can sustain that intensity every single game while playing the ridiculous number of games we play every year.