Topic: Round Table: Hosepipeīs Chelsea 1 - Kloppīs Liverpool 3

[BabuYagu]

How good did that feel? Be honest!
At 1-0 were you worried about the result? Be honest!

I knew we were going to beat these. With every fibre of my being. I actually thought it would be an absolute pasting and still believe if we had not started the game slowly, it would have been. So at 1-0 my reaction was "come on Liverpool, wake up, get into these".

The co-commentator on my stream, at 5m 40 seconds of the game said:-

"Already Klopp needs to change things to fix the mistake he made"

He was, of course, alluding to 'playing without a striker'. You can't do that in English football. Playing with just 1 striker used to be taboo. Pundits would go after the foreign managers who didnīt get our game with pitchforks every time for that. Except when they won. So this playing with just a false 9, that will be the stuff of witch burnings. Unless we win.

Thankfully, Klopp changed nothing. Then Terry almost scored. That was the moment we woke up, then we did get into them and we just blew them away. Even at 1-0 Chelsea looked scared. They retreated into their half. They were so terrified of losing the game they forgot they still had to do something to win it. To lose 3-1 at home and commit only 9 fouls in the game would worry me. And almost half of those were just from Diego Costa being a shithouse. Liverpool on the other hand contested everything. From the 7th minute, no Chelsea player had an easy second in that match.

Something people havenīt quite grasped yet is, one of the jobs of Lucas Leiva is commit fouls. When his side is vulnerable to a counter, when he gets caught out of position when we lose the ball, when the other team is building up momentum. Your destroyer commits tactical fouls. That is why itīs such a hard position to play when you are already on a yellow card. Lucas is a wily old pro at it now of course and knows he can get away with just 1 more after a booking. Klopp was worried about Allen in that position carrying a yellow card and hooked him, but he trusts Lucas out there. He knows his game management is outstanding.

And so Chelsea win the ball and look to counter. Lucas knew if he didnīt make that foul, Ramires had just broke through our press and both him and Can has just failed to stop the ball carrier. We had at least 1 full back ahead of play too. We were fucked, to be frank. He also made it look clumsy and apologetic while doing it, almost as if to say "Iīve nowhere to go ref, Iīm going to collide with him and there is nothing I can do". Bollocks Lucas, you knew exactly what you were doing. And I love you for it. It was a cynical foul. A yellow card worthy one. He disguised it just enough to get away with it. Well played sir. Well played.

In contrast, Mikel made 1 foul all game. In the 66th minute. On the left wing. And was booked for it. It was a harsh booking but in fairness to the ref, he must have thought like I did at the time "there is no way this is your first booking. You are the sides destroyer and your side is getting overrun." Nope, he was right. It was his first foul. That is how little fight this Chelsea side has these days. That is how little Mikel wanted to "take one for the team".

Those goals though? They were all beautiful. Donīt get me wrong, if Peter Beardsley picked up the ball and threw it into the goal against Chelsea, it would be a thing of beauty in my eyes. Iīm a biased twat like that when it comes to that lot. But all 3 of those goals were REALLY beautiful finishes. Mostly, because you can see the difference Klopp has made in every one of them. Pre-Klopp, we were snatching at chances. We werenīt scoring goals from open play. In fact we werenīt scoring at all for the most part. Coutinho must have fired shots into a defender right in front of him about 5 times every game on average. Not anymore. Pepijn Lijnders talked about making better chances. Not quantity but quality under Klopp and now we are seeing it. For all 3 goals, we shift the ball to lose the nearest defender, then again to make a better angle, then BANG. Goal.

Finally, a word on Sakho. Go check out his stats and heatmaps for the game. Honest to god, they almost looked like Alonso at Liverpool. He was so high up the pitch and had 90 touches of the ball. NINETY! Almost as many as Chelseaīs central midfield combined. Iīm not suggesting stats define a player. However, I believe Sakho is judged first on how ungainly he looks with the ball. Some never get past that either, which is a shame because we have a genuine playmaker at the heart of our defence. The fact he is an absolute beast too is a bonus.

On 88 minutes the co-commentator announced:-

"Klopp got everything right today. A tactical masterclass"

We have 1 more believer.

Questions
Lovren - our new DM?
Skrtel - his best performance this season?
Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for high pressing/counter-attacking, the latter for containment first?
Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?
Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will see more in big games like this?
Mourinho - Iīve nothing to say.

[Hinesy]

I'm glad you mentioned Sahko, he really is becoming more Hyypia than Henchoz, more Babbel in his pomp than a giraffe or something else tall and gangly. And not used to footy.

For me, not being a tactical genius, at times we look like we always have done under Rodgers; playing from the back, pressing (not as high as now perhaps) and quick passing. So what's the difference? I know Klopp has started to change things, and some ideas are starting to come through, but this really is a tale of 4 managers: Rodgers to Klopp, Mourinho old to Mourinho new.

Its a fascinating psychological shift that really does have an impact on the players. Witness Sakho's rebirth as a defender, a confidence in the team and a bullish attitude that doesn't care so much if we go one down. That's all markedly different to what we saw in the latter Brendan days.

And Chelsea, of old, of original Jose 1.0 or 2.0 on his return: scrapping and running. Here they were running away from scraps unless you're Diego Costa who repeatedly auditions for the late 80's baddie on any Bond movie you care to mention. Chelsea weren't good, but we weren't bad either. It was the belief that ran through us and out of them. Jose 2.1 is the boy that cried wolf. No-one gives a shit anymore.

I wonder if no more will we see the dynasty builders, the empire makers of old, Ferguson, Wenger at al, and instead the merry go round of the shiny new stay-for-a-3yr-manager.

You see I think Jose is like a new girlfriend, all shiny, different and full of energy and weirdness, its a new honeymoon period of wonder. But like the Emperor's New Clothes, after a couple of years you think  "She's bonkers what was I thinking".

Jose has run his course because his bluster and 'motivational' style suffers from the laws of diminishing returns. Let's hope Klopp isn't like this, and even if he is, lets make the most of this ride.
Happyfuckingdays.

[BabuYagu]

I'm glad you mentioned Sahko, he really is becoming more Hyypia than Henchoz, more Babbel in his pomp than a giraffe or something else tall and gangly. And not used to footy.

For me, not being a tactical genius, at times we look like we always have done under Rodgers; playing from the back, pressing (not as high as now perhaps) and quick passing. So what's the difference? I know Klopp has started to change things, and some ideas are starting to come through, but this really is a tale of 4 managers: Rodgers to Klopp, Mourinho old to Mourinho new.

Its a fascinating psychological shift that really does have an impact on the players. Witness Sakho's rebirth as a defender, a confidence in the team and a bullish attitude that doesn't care so much if we go one down. That's all markedly different to what we saw in the latter Brendan days.

And Chelsea, of old, of original Jose 1.0 or 2.0 on his return: scrapping and running. Here they were running away from scraps unless you're Diego Costa who repeatedly auditions for the late 80's baddie on any Bond movie you care to mention. Chelsea weren't good, but we weren't bad either. It was the belief that ran through us and out of them. Jose 2.1 is the boy that cried wolf. No-one gives a shit anymore.

I wonder if no more will we see the dynasty builders, the empire makers of old, Ferguson, Wenger at al, and instead the merry go round of the shiny new stay-for-a-3yr-manager.

You see I think Jose is like a new girlfriend, all shiny, different and full of energy and weirdness, its a new honeymoon period of wonder. But like the Emperor's New Clothes, after a couple of years you think  "She's bonkers what was I thinking".

Jose has run his course because his bluster and 'motivational' style suffers from the laws of diminishing returns. Let's hope Klopp isn't like this, and even if he is, lets make the most of this ride.
Happyfuckingdays.

One of the things you will notice more under Klopp is how close together everything is. In a word - we are now compact, with and without the ball. The best example I can give you is Firmino yesterday. His role was to drop deep and stay just behind Mikel & Ramires line. The defenders then either move up and be very vulnerable in behind, or Mikel and Ramires drop even deeper so they are on top of the center backs. If you rewatch the game back, and I will be, you will see lots of times Ramires and Mikel trying to deal with having 4 or 5 players in their area of the pitch and nobody helping them out. Because Mourinho was so worried about keeping shape, his side couldnīt react to this problem.

I have never seen a midfield pairing struggle so much as Mikel and Ramires yesterday. It wasnīt entirely their fault. They had no help at all. Mourinho seemed to think Hazard was part of the problem in not occupying Lucas enough off the ball and hooked him to replace with Kennedy. He figured that his 3 in the middle would give him balance against Can-Lucas-Milner. It didnīt though because Firmino and one of Coutinho/Lallana kept wandering into Ramires or Mikelīs zone and nobody followed them.

Ultimately what happened is with too many players to deal with in their areas of the pitch, Mikel and Ramires dealt with nobody at all. In contrast to Lucas, he patrolled the same area of the pitch for Liverpool and dealt with anybody coming into it. He never got overran in there because there would always be one of Milner or Can in there to help. When there wasnīt, he would just foul someone and get a reset. The best example of this is the Ramires foul that Chelsea wanted him sent off for. Can looked beaten, Lucas steps up and makes sure he goes no further rather than let Ramires get his head up and try to pick a pass or run at him. Because if he runs at Lucas and then gets fouled it is almost certainly a red card. Itīs then far more cynical than a coming together of 3 players near the center circle in Chelseaīs half.

The added benefits of this are pressing. When we lose the ball there is always several Liverpool players near the ball to immediately win it back or at least make sure the player cannot pass his way out of the Liverpool press easily. You win the ball, but you are surrounded. What do you do? Iīm not sure there is any statistic for this but I would be very curious to see how many 2nd balls we pick up now compared to before Rodgers. It seems everytime the ball breaks loose somewhere on the pitch there are 1 or 2 Liverpool players nearest to it now.

[Nessy76]

Lovren - our new DM?

No, but seriously. I love that it's a new start for the whole squad. Lovren is a very capable player. He was slated for a lot of things that clearly weren't his fault last season, as well as for a few that clearly were. Truth is, he's neither perfect nor awful. Get a system that works for him and he can do a job for us.

But not as DM! 

Skrtel - his best performance this season?

Games like this, you need a nasty git, a thug, a bit of a tough guy. Skrtel's bark is worse than his bite and he's more likely to rip your shirt than break yer legs, but the way he faced Costa after that kick, shit. I would not want to be looking into that face in that mood. He projected menace, a halloween creature, an unnatural thing of the night. And Costa did look a bit scared of the guy he'd just shoved his studs into. Like he'd just realised what he'd done, and how little it had hurt Skrtel. If you're going to stick something in Skrtel's chest, it has to be a stake, or he'll just get up again.




Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for containment first, the latter for high pressing/counter-attacking?

What we've seen so far has involved a bit of both. Milner shifting from one line to the other where required. Add Henderson to the picture and it gets even more interesting as both are players who could potentially play a part in either line. A row of 3 in front of a back 4 is very, very hard to break down, and the ability to shift to a 3 behind a striker with full backs bombing on means we can get men into and around the box and offer a lot more threat.


Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?


Best player on the pitch in the cup match midweek. Relentless and more or less unique in the pace he gives us. Attacking football can be all about making the other team make mistakes, and they make mistakes when they need to change shape. A quick player, or someone who can make quick accurate long passes, can force that change of shape and expose weaknesses in a defence. Ibe represents that role, he can charge up from fairly deep and be in the box before the defence knows what it is doing. What he does after that is the next thing. He has a shot on him, but won't often get into a great position with those runs against top class defenders, so he needs to work on his awareness and pick out team-mates more often.
Worth a place for sheer energy, though.

Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will see more in big games like this?

Think that was more about his fitness than anything else. Might be that he starts and then comes off more often. Gives us a target, not just in the sense of a target man, but he's the only available player who you feel is going to hit the target more often than not. Get him the ball in the box, he'll get the goal. For me, he has to start ahead of Origi if fit. His fellow Belgian might or might not come good, but at this moment he's not a goalscorer.

[DonkeyWan]

My measured, thoughtful analysis of the game

-> HAHAHAHHAHA, 'avit you fackin' chief.

A fine performance in which Chelsea were abject. The Liverpool midfield needs work though, Milner and Can are not nearly good enough and there is no back up to them, other than the frankly poor Allen.

Other than that, it all looks great. Pity Kazan will undo all the good work for next week, a long trip to a  must win game.

[Trim0582]

Questions
Lovren - our new DM?
I think with Klopp he will get back to the level of performance that got him a transfer to Liverpool. I mentioned something after the Bournemouth match and it was perceivable against Chelsea, the allowance for defenders to just clear the ball or kick it out and reset. They all seem a little lighter for it, more relaxed. A player that is tense and nervous is never going to deliver great performances. Sacrificing that "potential possession" is far outweighed by not having defenders farting their brains all over the place

Skrtel - his best performance this season?
Fantastic game form Skrtel, as stated above I think Klopp is getting the bread and butter right and removing the pressure of making Skrtel a ball playing CB. Perhaps in time he will redress that but in all honesty it did nothing for us other than cause issues for 3 years, so if Klopp just gets them being great defenders again I will be thrilled.


Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for containment first, the latter for high pressing/counter-attacking?
Confused, you say we look more dangerous in 4-2-3-1, then say perhaps it's purely a containment formation? What one is what?

Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?
It's early days, young players dip in and out of form, but Klopp seems to have taken Ibe under his wing, if anything will improve a young player it's Klopp's mental big grin, face slap, bear hug, father approach. I've never wanted to be slapped around the face so much

Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will
see more in big games like this?
Not sure I agree with this, his hold up play even when isolated is outrageous and is all about letting team mates get into position and being a constant release. The fact that he can score fantastic goals is pure gravy. I'd rather him start on the pitch rather than the bench when fully fit, but I can imagine him being a horrible sight for a tired defence.

Mourinho - Iīve nothing to say.
I loved his sulky little face

[BabuYagu]

Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for containment first, the latter for high pressing/counter-attacking?
Confused, you say we look more dangerous in 4-2-3-1, then say perhaps it's purely a containment formation? What one is what?

Apologies, I confused my formers and latters. Will amend

Basically, I think the 3-2 midfield allows us to protect our defence better and we use it when we expect we need to absorb more pressure. The 2-3 midfield allows us to press high up the pitch better. I posted elsewhere a gif showing our evolving midfield shape during the second half of the Southampton game. It absolutely kills the idea that Klopp is keeping it simple or is not much of a tactician.

In that sense Milner was perfect for our side in allowing us to transition from a 3-2, to a diamond, to a 2-3, to a 4-1. Henderson and, to an extent, Can offer the same versatility in midfield. Firmino offers us that versatility in the forward line. Tactically, Klopp is going to pose teams lots of problems. He ruined Mikel and Ramires yesterday. Best of all, nobody expects it because heīs "not the best tactically"

[Chakan]

Lovren - our new DM?

I don't see Lovren as a DM, he's a good backup CB to have incase one of Skrtel / Sakho gets injured. He did a lot wrong last year his fault or otherwise, I think he can only get better with Klopp advising him. He's the perfect manager to get the best out of Lovren, but as a DM you need to be able to read the play and act accordingly, I don't see Lovren being able to do that for a couple of years yet. It's why Lucas is the perfect DM right now.

Skrtel - his best performance this season?

Skrtel was definitely on form over the weekend. I don't think we've ever asked him to defend so high, it will take sometime to get used to it. I'm almost sure Klopp has had a word and said you'll do it this way or you won't do it at all. You can see Skrtel now getting up the pitch when the defense moves up. We still need to work on a few things, like the back peddling when players run at him, but you can see he now tries to put the boot in before he ends up in the box. As for him and Costa, I wanted to see a bit more needle from Skrtel during the game, I know it's the dark arts of the game, but Costa midweek had an injury to the ribs which was bad enough for him to come off. I wanted to see Skrtel put in a few digs to the ribs. You absolutely know if it was the other way round Costa would have been targeting them the entire game. Carragher would have done it as well.

Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for containment first, the latter for high pressing/counter-attacking?

We look more dangerous in the 4-2-3-1 because it allows Coutinho, Firmino, Benteke, Milner to get forward and occupy space infront of Can and Lucas. On the backfoot you want people behind the ball which Milner tends to do (although have to on Saturday he didn't do it effectively) , you also want that counter option available which leaves Coutinho, Firmino, Benteke available on a quick counter. Our pressing I don't think really changes when we switch formation, we still actively press in midfield and from the front for both of them. We definitely do it in set sessions though. I've noticed since Klopp has come in that we tend to win the ball back more effectively in the first 20 minutes. We kill ourselves trying to get it back, it's the perfect time to do it.

Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?

I see Ibe's role this season as an impact sub, come on when the other team is tired and have a go at them. His confidence has been restored and he's taking on people again ( I think one of his biggest strengths) take the man on, drive towards the line and get the cross or shot in. He'll benefit a lot from 4-2-3-1.

Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will see more in big games like this?

Disagree that he's not the team player like Origi, I think he's more of a team player than Origi, just because he can see more of the angles on offer, that's not a slight on Origi , that will come will experience. Firmino is just a silky player from start to finish he offers a lot more on the ground than Benteke, but that's because Benteke's role has largely been target man, either from the keeper or the cross into the box. That's not his fault either it's usually the manager's instruction. Klopp sees more in Benteke than that. I was against Benteke's purchase because I thought we would have to adapt our play to him to get the best out of him, and that largely was the case, not now though.

We are definitely setting up to get the best out of the players behind him as well as getting the best out of him by not seeing him as just a target man. The 3rd goal is the best evidence of this, ball up to Benteke (target man) wins the header and immediately sets off into the middle on a run, Ibe gets the ball runs up the wing and passes it into the center (Benteke already there), shift of the weight, delayed shot, takes out the covering defender and bang 3-1. Clinical, all the skills of Benteke on display.

Mourinho - Iīve nothing to say.

I loved his press conference, it was perfect, for once I loved the British press being assholes. He's a scared boy of a person, like the school yard bully finally caught with his pants down for everyone to see and mock. Long may it continue.

[stockdam]

Let me comment on a post from the post-match thread........

11tegen11 ‏@11tegen11 14m14 minutes ago

Can is an important hub in Klopp's early Liverpool days.
Firmino created space by dropping deep.
Very advanced FB's.

Skrtel so much fucking deeper than everyone else. Sort it out Jurgen!

 

Don't get so hung up on heat maps or touches etc. as they don't tell the whole story.

When we were defending, both Skrtel and Sakho played tight as a unit as they should. Skrtel didn't drop back unless it was the right thing to do.

When we were attacking, Skrtel stayed with Costa in the centre which was the correct thing to do. That allowed Sakho to carry the ball or to stay slightly more advanced.

So the plan was for Skrtel to mark Costa and he did that delightfully, he made Costa look poor.. Sakho had nobody to mark when we had the ball and that allowed him to go forwards; Skrtel at times stepped back to give Sakho the option of playing the ball back to Skrtel if needed (all forward passes were blocked off).

The two of them were exceptional together against a very good attacking team.

Overall we pressed and played as a team. The best display I've seen from us this season.

So yes the heat maps etc. may be factual but we don't want our centre backs to do the same things.......they work as a unit with each playing to their strengths.

Skrtel has his limitations but he is also a very good defender if he is given the right role. Hopefully both he and Sakho get a long run where they develop a good relationship.

[Flaccid Bobby Fowler]

I will contribute more to this thread when I get home but at one stage in the first half, we had our whole outfield setup inside the chelsea half. All 10 players over the halfway line inside their half. It struck me as it was very defined and structured. Skrtel and Sakho maybe five yards in off the centre, full backs pushed right up.

This was also after going one down. Again, struck me for many reasons. Klopp has talked about playing inside the opposition half and this was the first proper time I seen it in practise since he took over. The mentality to do that after the early setback shows so many positives its hard to for me to write them all down.

[Red Beret]

I said in the pre match thread that, given their current form, Chelsea were going into this game effectively a goal down.  It was a must-win game for them; they couldn't afford to try and play out a draw. 

I'll admit that when they scored I thought to myself "here we fucking go again", but Klopp's chin up gestures didn't just keep the players on track - it uplifted me as well.  As we got a foothold in the match it became increasingly clear Chelsea didn't have an answer.  Whether they tried to default to park the bus mode in response I can't say.  If they did, then the bus' windows were all kicked in and our equaliser went clean through them and into the goal.

Second half they tried to get in our faces for the first few minutes, perhaps hoping a bit of aggression would intimidate us, but we didn't fold.  After that it became "don't lose don't lose don't lose" for them, which is pretty much the death knell for your team's morale.  After we went ahead they just collapsed; there was no way back.

I don't believe it was so much a numerical advantage they wanted in demanding Lucas be carded - they were after a morale boost.  When it didn't come off they pretty much just gave up.

Just my take on things anyway.

[rickardinho1]

One of the things you will notice more under Klopp is how close together everything is. In a word - we are now compact, with and without the ball. The best example I can give you is Firmino yesterday. His role was to drop deep and stay just behind Mikel & Ramires line. The defenders then either move up and be very vulnerable in behind, or Mikel and Ramires drop even deeper so they are on top of the center backs. If you rewatch the game back, and I will be, you will see lots of times Ramires and Mikel trying to deal with having 4 or 5 players in their area of the pitch and nobody helping them out. Because Mourinho was so worried about keeping shape, his side couldnīt react to this problem.

I have never seen a midfield pairing struggle so much as Mikel and Ramires yesterday. It wasnīt entirely their fault. They had no help at all. Mourinho seemed to think Hazard was part of the problem in not occupying Lucas enough off the ball and hooked him to replace with Kennedy. He figured that his 3 in the middle would give him balance against Can-Lucas-Milner. It didnīt though because Firmino and one of Coutinho/Lallana kept wandering into Ramires or Mikelīs zone and nobody followed them.

Ultimately what happened is with too many players to deal with in their areas of the pitch, Mikel and Ramires dealt with nobody at all. In contrast to Lucas, he patrolled the same area of the pitch for Liverpool and dealt with anybody coming into it. He never got overran in there because there would always be one of Milner or Can in there to help. When there wasnīt, he would just foul someone and get a reset. The best example of this is the Ramires foul that Chelsea wanted him sent off for. Can looked beaten, Lucas steps up and makes sure he goes no further rather than let Ramires get his head up and try to pick a pass or run at him. Because if he runs at Lucas and then gets fouled it is almost certainly a red card. Itīs then far more cynical than a coming together of 3 players near the center circle in Chelseaīs half.

The added benefits of this are pressing. When we lose the ball there is always several Liverpool players near the ball to immediately win it back or at least make sure the player cannot pass his way out of the Liverpool press easily. You win the ball, but you are surrounded. What do you do? Iīm not sure there is any statistic for this but I would be very curious to see how many 2nd balls we pick up now compared to before Rodgers. It seems everytime the ball breaks loose somewhere on the pitch there are 1 or 2 Liverpool players nearest to it now.

All of this is absolutely spot on. I posted about exactly this in the Klopp thread earlier and think it's relevant to copy here too to help illustrate the points in bold in particular with the help of a couple of diagrams/videos/vines.

As the article says, the key in the first half was the time Sakho was afforded on the ball, as he picked out numerous passes to cut straight through Chelsea's midfield, often straight in to Coutinho or Firmino. In the second half Sakho was still afforded time and space, but this time he looked for the route to Benteke with everyone else supporting him once the ball was in the final 3rd.



Sakho's all-touch video makes the first and second half tactics abundantly clear:

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/VfdoEIEzZMM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/VfdoEIEzZMM</a>

We didn't really make much use of this once we got on the final 3rd, but the way we were able to overload that left side and penetrate Chelsea so easily is very promising. Overloading that area with Coutinho+Can+Lallana+Moreno+Firmimo had the double effect of making it easier for Sakho to find an unmarked man, whilst also makin it easier for us to win the ball back immediately if we lost it as we had so many bodies in a small area. The vine near the top of this article illustrates this facet well: https://anfieldindex.com/18582/klopps-tactics-inspire-liverpool-victory-chelsea.html

[Anywhichwayicant]

Let me comment on a post from the post-match thread........





Skrtel so much fucking deeper than everyone else. Sort it out Jurgen!

Don't get so hung up on heat maps or touches etc. as they don't tell the whole story.

When we were defending, both Skrtel and Sakho played tight as a unit as they should. Skrtel didn't drop back unless it was the right thing to do.

When we were attacking, Skrtel stayed with Costa in the centre which was the correct thing to do. That allowed Sakho to carry the ball or to stay slightly more advanced.

So the plan was for Skrtel to mark Costa and he did that delightfully, he made Costa look poor.. Sakho had nobody to mark when we had the ball and that allowed him to go forwards; Skrtel at times stepped back to give Sakho the option of playing the ball back to Skrtel if needed (all forward passes were blocked off).

The two of them were exceptional together against a very good attacking team.

Overall we pressed and played as a team. The best display I've seen from us this season.

So yes the heat maps etc. may be factual but we don't want our centre backs to do the same things.......they work as a unit with each playing to their strengths.

Skrtel has his limitations but he is also a very good defender if he is given the right role. Hopefully both he and Sakho get a long run where they develop a good relationship.

That was tongue in cheek on my behalf

[No666]

Great OP, Baby Yogurt. I'm afraid I can't add anything succinct and sensible. I'm still capering around, metaphorically yelling 'Gerrin' and 'Jurgen Klopp is our manager!' But I enjoy reading sensible analysis. Cheers.

[stockdam]

That was tongue in cheek on my behalf

I guess that it was but it was a nice platform to show how Skrtel and Sakho are playing well together. Skrtel just needs to be played in the right role (just like a lot of our players).

[rickardinho1]

How good did that feel? Be honest!
At 1-0 were you worried about the result? Be honest!

Hearing "sacked in the morning" and YNWA reverberate at Stamford Bridge was awesome. I had a massive smile on my face.

Like you, I was supremely confident of winning this one pre-match. That said, when the goal went in and Chelsea started to sit back I did get a couple of flashbacks from the game in April 2014, mainly because I knew how few goals we'd scored recently.

However, not once did I ever give a shit about the actual result. I remember thinking to myself before Coutinho's goal how delightful the first half had been, and was even mentally preparing some very positive comments for the HT thread about our play just before Coutinho's goal.

That isn't to say I wasn't delirious about the goal, but it was the performance that pleased me most, and Indidnt worry one bit about the prospect of losing the game.

Lovren - our new DM?

Lovren was brought on for 3 simple reasons:

1. Falcao came on to give Chelsea two up top and as such a 2v2 against Skrtel and Sakho, so introducing another player deep to help win second balls was smart.

2. Chelsea were inevitably launching crosses into the box in the last few minutes so we needed someone to help defend these.

3. Can and Lucas were on YC's so we needed someone to help hack players down in DM if needed. Allen would have been considered if not for point 2 above, as he would have had no impact on defending crosses.

As I've said before, I think Lovren can improve significantly under Klopp's guidance, as he'll be playing in a compact system that minimises 1v1 situations in vast open spaces, and not requiring CB's to pass the ball more than they're naturally comfortably doing.

Skrtel - his best performance this season?
Regarding the Costa kick situation, I think Nessy summed it up best:

Games like this, you need a nasty git, a thug, a bit of a tough guy. Skrtel's bark is worse than his bite and he's more likely to rip your shirt than break yer legs, but the way he faced Costa after that kick, shit. I would not want to be looking into that face in that mood. He projected menace, a halloween creature, an unnatural thing of the night. And Costa did look a bit scared of the guy he'd just shoved his studs into. Like he'd just realised what he'd done, and how little it had hurt Skrtel. If you're going to stick something in Skrtel's chest, it has to be a stake, or he'll just get up again.

Skrtel was impressive, but less so for being individually brilliant, and more so for how he fit into the system. No more dropping off early, and he looked assured playing inside Chelsea's half.

Skrtel's job was made easier by the pressing of players ahead of him, as that meant that there was little threat in behind Skrtel, as the ball-carrying midfielders never had time or space to look up for a pass.

Credit to Skrtel for dominating Costa so thoroughly though. I don't remember a single header lost or an instance where Costa was allowed more than a square meter on the ball. Skrtel neutralised him very well.

As a few people (spiderNeil, babuyagu, and myself among others) have predicted would happen, improving the compactness and pressing of our midfield and shortening the distance between last man and our strikers off the ball made it easier for us to win the ball back and made our defense look solid again.

I'm curious to see how Skrtel will deal with Palace's forwards though, as Bolasie, Zaha, and Gayle are all players who want to run behind him (unlike Oscar, Hazard, and Willian, and Costa this season), and in Cabaye Palace have a player who excels at picking out passes over the top. I think Palace will be a trickier game for Martin than the Chelsea game was, as man marking Costa suits him better than tracking runs of several agile forwards.


Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for containment first, the latter for high pressing/counter-attacking?

4321 worked well vs Spurs because we wanted to block off the central areas that Spurs like to play in. The formation allowed us on stay compact in front of our back 4, while having two players (Coutinho and Lallana) blocking the passing lanes into the spaces between our lines.

       Coutinho   Lallana
   Can        Lucas     Milner

I went into this in more detail in the Kazan preview thread iirc, but in general 4231 should be the formation we see more often, with 4321 only chosen against teams who attack very narrow and have little threat on the wings. In any case, Milner and Henderson are two perfect players for that RCM/RM position that requires them to tuck-in defensively but then explode forward in possession.

Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?

Ibe has certainly shown some nice flashes, particularly against Bournemouth. His energy, pace, and directness is a fantastic weapon to have off the bench, which will be his main tactical role until he can start to add goals to his game one would think. There were promising signs against Biurnemouth (where he should have had an assist if Origi had scored his header) and Chelsea (where he had a good shot blocked and an assist for Benteke off the right).

Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will see more in big games like this?

Klopp is approaching Benteke with more caution than he'd probably like, due to te injury situation, but even if everyone was fit I think Klopp would still want to vary his tactics. Benteke is a hugely formidable striker to bring off te bench though if that's the chosen approach.

[BabuYagu]

Oh, and anybody here who understands body language notice how many times Mourinho says "fuck you"?



He said a lot for someone with nothing to say. I love seeing him squirm and suffer on a weekly (bi-weekly thanks to the Carling Cup!). I really hope he doesnīt get fired yet. There is still the potential for this to get much worse for him

[soxfan]

As for him and Costa, I wanted to see a bit more needle from Skrtel during the game, I know it's the dark arts of the game, but Costa midweek had an injury to the ribs which was bad enough for him to come off. I wanted to see Skrtel put in a few digs to the ribs. You absolutely know if it was the other way round Costa would have been targeting them the entire game. Carragher would have done it as well.

You apparently missed the moment when Skrtel tried to pry open Costa's skull using his elbow and forearm.

[Chakan]

You apparently missed the moment when Skrtel tried to pry open Costa's skull using his elbow and forearm.

That was in the 2nd half when he ran Costa past our goal? Flung him to the ground, if I remember correctly. That's what I wanted to see the whole game though

[Hazell]

Terrific OP mate.

Nice to see Lucas getting much love, who has consistently been written off by Liverpool and non Liverpool fans alike but generally always performs to a high standard. Klopp seems to favour him during his short time here so far although we don't really have another player with his skillset I suppose that's unsurprising.

And Skrtel, who has gotten some over the top stick during his time here stepped up yesterday as well, after a poor start to the season and didn't give Costa an inch.

I do kind of disagree about Benteke though, he's a more rounded player than Origi is (which is not to be unexpected given their respective ages and experience) but in the short time he's been here, he's played as well as he could - under Rodgers, we did resort to long balls being played in his general vicinity which he could do very little with - and has usually made the right decision when presented with the opportunity to do so. Think he's been a very good team player. Loved the way he took his goal yesterday as well, strolled past Cahill and Terry like he didn't give a fuck.

Firmino played well too, looking more and more like he's settling in.

But the biggest thing was the team performance, something which had been lacking earlier this season for the most part. We looked solid and played as a unit, especial without the ball and that was the most pleasing thing because it's been a while since we've been that.

Oh, and anybody here who understands body language notice how many times Mourinho says "fuck you"?

He said a lot for someone with nothing to say. I love seeing him squirm and suffer on a weekly (bi-weekly thanks to the Carling Cup!). I really hope he doesnīt get fired yet. There is still the potential for this to get much worse for him

It's so much fun. I think anyone who's not a Chelsea is enjoying it.

[robertobaggio37]

snip

Well put mate.

oh and I have nothing to say..

[Bill Lacey]

Great OP. The way Klopp has them pressing is very impressive, even players like Lallana and Coutinho. One interesting thing I heard was that the pressing is done on command. Someone, maybe Lucas, is calling it, and when one goes, they do not go alone, it's three or more. When it's not called, no-one presses. I guess this is to allow the press to happen throughout the 90 minutes and not wear the players out. Wondering if anyone else has heard this?

[BabuYagu]

To explain a little what I mean about Benteke, both Origi and Firmino are players who will offer 100% commitment to what Klopp wants from the front in terms of pressing. They will fulfill their team duties. The goal threat of each though is limited, at the moment anyway.

With Benteke he offers you goals but he wonīt offer you the same output in terms of pressing for the team. Iīm not saying he will stand around with hands on hips either btw. And given his recent injury record, Iīm not sure we WANT him sprinting across the pitch as much as Origi/Ings to do that anyway. If he just stays nearish the center halves so one of them isnīt a passing option, thatīs enough for me.

So in big games, where I think in the first half of the game, Klopp may prefer someone who offers him 100% pressing at a reduced goal threat. Certainly away from home at least when we may need to weather the early storm and silence the crowd. Likewise in Europe where games are far more tactical. The way we are aiming to play at the moment will wear teams down throughout the game until physically and mentally you become stressed. Then you get Benteke on. Then he doesnīt need to press as fiercely because reaction times will already be slower due to physical and mental fatigue setting in.

I like the idea of bringing Benteke on when teams are most vulnerable to the threat he poses. Rather than start him in these sorts of games and have him wear himself out as much as the opposition.

[BabuYagu]

Great OP. The way Klopp has them pressing is very impressive, even players like Lallana and Coutinho. One interesting thing I heard was that the pressing is done on command. Someone, maybe Lucas, is calling it, and when one goes, they do not go alone, it's three or more. When it's not called, no-one presses. I guess this is to allow the press to happen throughout the 90 minutes and not wear the players out. Wondering if anyone else has heard this?

Yes someone commented on this somewhere. The players nearest the ball charges. Itīs instinctive and so he doesnīt assess the situation. Someone who is further off and can assess whether itīs the right moment to "go" or not will call him off if not. Iīm not sure if itīs a specific player assigned to the role or just something that happens, like "man on" if itīs clear someone is pressing someone alone.

[Robinred]

Yes someone commented on this somewhere. The players nearest the ball charges. Itīs instinctive and so he doesnīt assess the situation. Someone who is further off and can assess whether itīs the right moment to "go" or not will call him off if not. Iīm not sure if itīs a specific player assigned to the role or just something that happens, like "man on" if itīs clear someone is pressing someone alone.

I too loved your OP. It's rare on these boards to find yourself nodding furiously in agreement with a poster. Lots of posters "get" Lucas of course; it's just that they don't always give a forensically comprehensive analysis of why - like the OP does so well.

As to this strand of the thread, I have to say that as much as I understand and appreciate the observation, it's actually nothing new for a Liverpool team. Shanks and Bob Paisley were renowned for producing high-energy teams that 'hunted in packs' to retrieve possession high up the park. Clough et al followed suit; indeed Clough's teams at Derby and Forest were superb without the ball, and worked exceptionally hard on team shape, pressing and blocking.

One final point. I have no desire to make comparisons between Klopp and BR. Brendan did an excellent job in so many regards, and I shall remember that crazy season with as much affection as the Gerrard/Torres partnership at its finest under Rafa. But I have to comment on how, in a very short time, two players - namely Lucas and Sakho - have demonstrated their worth as "key" players; something that self evidently wasn't the case previously.

[LOHAG]

That 'commentator' was Trevor Francis. And whilst there maybe other threads for such rants, this is the only one where i have seen that quote.
The guy is an absolute bellend.
Yep he said we need a change after 5 mins.
He also said that it looked like we had t trained with that formation?
Does he think that we rocked up in South London and said ' right fellas, today's it's no striker day!'
It was noticeable how little he said second half. Almost like some arsebole in BT sport thought turn that pricks Mike off, he is costing us viewers!'

[Col]

In America, the NBC coverage has an option to watch the game via a "Tactical Cam" - an almost-overhead camera, which covers roughly 1/2 of the field from a top-down perspective.

Just after half-time, the main camera was having issues, so I switched for a while. What was fascinating is that it was actually Can who was controlling the pressing during that period - telling Coutinho and Firminho when to press and when to hold.

One of the US national team's staff said recently that at the top level, the players who actually control the press are actually the centre backs - or at least, that's what the centre backs will always say.

In reality, during the development of a new system, where teams can often get stretched (and especially in the transition-centric Premier League), it's more than likely going to be coming from the deepest centre mid more often than not, as they'll have the best view to tell whether the forwards pressing at any particular time will over-stretch the midfield's supporting line or not.

It will be interesting to see how pressing patterns and triggers vary depending on the opposition - we might sit a little deeper and confront a little lower against a team with quick, counter-attacking players such as Palace, than we would against a team who like to pack the midfield or play via a sole striker as an attacking focal point.

[Sangria]

In America, the NBC coverage has an option to watch the game via a "Tactical Cam" - an almost-overhead camera, which covers roughly 1/2 of the field from a top-down perspective.

Just after half-time, the main camera was having issues, so I switched for a while. What was fascinating is that it was actually Can who was controlling the pressing during that period - telling Coutinho and Firminho when to press and when to hold.

One of the US national team's staff said recently that at the top level, the players who actually control the press are actually the centre backs - or at least, that's what the centre backs will always say.

In reality, during the development of a new system, where teams can often get stretched (and especially in the transition-centric Premier League), it's more than likely going to be coming from the deepest centre mid more often than not, as they'll have the best view to tell whether the forwards pressing at any particular time will over-stretch the midfield's supporting line or not.

It will be interesting to see how pressing patterns and triggers vary depending on the opposition - we might sit a little deeper and confront a little lower against a team with quick, counter-attacking players such as Palace, than we would against a team who like to pack the midfield or play via a sole striker as an attacking focal point.

It might be the case that the holding CM has enough of the play in front of him to get a comprehensive view, yet is within range to make himself heard.

[Col]

It might be the case that the holding CM has enough of the play in front of him to get a comprehensive view, yet is within range to make himself heard.

Yep.

There are two (or three) sides to this, as I see it:

If there's a language barrier with the 'leading' centre-back, co-ordination issues may be relocated.

If the team press isn't well-drilled enough to have the line spacing down to a tee, then a CM could be used to cover any disconnect.

Also, it shows a large amount of trust in Can - I would have expected it to have been Lucas, being as he is both more experienced, and the brains of the team defensively. That Can was even sharing duties with him, speaks to the level of respect he has within the group and with Klopp, as a badly-timed or broken press can very quickly become an overloaded and out-of-balance defensive situation.

[Anywhichwayicant]

In America, the NBC coverage has an option to watch the game via a "Tactical Cam" - an almost-overhead camera, which covers roughly 1/2 of the field from a top-down perspective.

Just after half-time, the main camera was having issues, so I switched for a while. What was fascinating is that it was actually Can who was controlling the pressing during that period - telling Coutinho and Firminho when to press and when to hold.

One of the US national team's staff said recently that at the top level, the players who actually control the press are actually the centre backs - or at least, that's what the centre backs will always say.

In reality, during the development of a new system, where teams can often get stretched (and especially in the transition-centric Premier League), it's more than likely going to be coming from the deepest centre mid more often than not, as they'll have the best view to tell whether the forwards pressing at any particular time will over-stretch the midfield's supporting line or not.

It will be interesting to see how pressing patterns and triggers vary depending on the opposition - we might sit a little deeper and confront a little lower against a team with quick, counter-attacking players such as Palace, than we would against a team who like to pack the midfield or play via a sole striker as an attacking focal point.

Very interesting, thanks for the post.

It may be very simplistic, but I think it's reflective of the belief Klopp has in Can.

[MDougal]

3 Weeks! Imagine 3 months, maybe 12!

The result of course is always most important and had we not had found a way back into the game im sure we would have all been picking out the inevatable flaws that there obviously were, but in terms of things that can make you smile and be happy about not only the win but the way that we were able to almost deflate Chelsea to a point of looking like a team that just wanted off the pitch, then there was plenty to cheer.

First mention for me has to be the shape of the side which in turn allows for players to fill there roles much better than under previous management (who i was in favour of).
Whether it be the 4-3-2-1 that we seemed to start off with with Milner having the directive to push wider to a) contain Chelsea's left side, and then create a link with Clyne down the side, or the 4-2-3-1 that we ended with you can see the obvious patterns already that have emerged 3 weeks in.

Lucas who has always been underrated in my view certainly amongst pundits, other fans nevermind our own, has beneftted as much if not more than any other and i still remember the 3 game spell City, then Chelsea twice just before his injury where he i would say put in performances that would have created a new buzz word for football (ie the lucas role) and although injury has robbed him of the complete freedom of movement the shape of the side is now almost perfect for Lucas to shield everything that needs shielding and then start off a move with his passing range that is so much more than just backwards sideways that the lazy fan would have you believe. It could potentially save us a lot of hard work in the short term to find someone for this role and focus our efforts in other areas.

Then there is Skrtel who i must admit i've never particularly been a massive fan of but again you can see the benefit of shape on Skrtel in a short space of time, while now having quite obviously a clear directive to defend first then we can look to play football which although in the long term may mean he is upgraded he will certainly excel at the defend first narrative.
Not much can be added for Sakho that hasnt been mentioned before other than echoing the opinions that most of the pundits watched a 10 min highlight reel of him tripping over his legs once and decided that was it he was Traore mark 2 and yet quite clearly the lad has untapped ability as a modern day defender.

Lastly I must admit one of my slight bug bears of Rodgers era (and as i said i was a fan) was his insistence that his team pressed the other team and yet the evidence before us wasnt really there bar the crazy few months of 13/14.

And already 3 weeks in you can see what it is like to have a team set out to harry opposition off the ball and although it is far from perfected and likely wont be for a good while yet, and may cause us issues along the way which is something we will have to get used to you can see the effect already. The triggers may or may not be in place yet (it would take someone more astute than me to spot them) but certainly there is almost a nature call from someone on the pitch of when to go and when we do we are going in numbers and the amount of times we won the ball back in dangerous areas on Saturday was frightening and with less ring rust more composure dare i say it better players we would have had more than a few likely one on situations and this in turn you could see on Saturday wilted what little spirit chelsea had as they literally couldnt see an easy way out, an easy 5 mins breather on the ball which led to plenty of heads scrambled all over the pitch for Chelsea and at the end my feeling was they couldnt wait to get off which may be because of their situation but certainly also in part to our relentless play.

If that is what we can produce after 3 weeks it really does bode well for the future I just hope everyone forgets about playing Football Manager etc picking out new players from wherever our manager will worry about that going forward we all should catch this train as its starting to leave the platform because i for one get the feeling its a one way with no stops and cant wait for the ride

[Livo.85]

I thought Mourinho made several tactical errors which deserves a bit of a discussion that hasn't really been had yet.
Not only should we wax lyrical about Klopp but talk about what the opposition did right/wrong in these round table threads.
Mikel & Ramires being on the toes of Cahill & Terry might of made sense if we were sending it long to Benteke but the opposite happened.
When Sakho had the ball he had so many options to play through to midfield.
I think our weakness is still out wide & in the channels where Clyne & Moreno can often get caught out of position.
Chelsea only exploited that once & that was for the goal. Not sure Clyne was at fault here either, however we were still exposed down the right flank then Moreno having a nap & the match had only just started!
One of the issues for Chelsea was Zouma & Azpilicueta aren't natural attacking fullbacks & Oscar wanted nothing to do being played out wide & Hazard would of been far more suited on the left.
Hazard did absolutely nothing central, credit to Can & Lucas. Not just a tactical issue there either but management with regards to playing 120 minutes midweek for a league cup game. Very questionable management of his best attacking player.
Recovery plays a huge part regarding performance & why Klopp needs to be careful managing the other non league fixtures.
Thoughts?

[red mongoose]

I have to admit, I have no fucking idea what any of this means:



It's nothing new, me being baffled at one of these charts. Those heat maps may as well be Teletubby sperm samples for all I can see in them. It feels like the more the days pass and the deeper we go into analysis, the less I understand. I do get the gist of what's happening tactically, though, on a more macro level. And I fucking love it.

I've said several times on here that during the home match against Chelsea near the end of the '13-'14 season, I felt like I was being poisoned from the off - the fucking time wasting from the first minute, just the general negativity of that anti-football made a dirge of my heartbeat and I knew - I fucking knew - that we were in deep trouble. I knew the villain was carrying that fairy tale to a bitter conclusion. The denoument at Palace was no better as we bled out from our wounds, but it was that Chelsea match that really did us in. Obviously.

So I'm sat here the next season nursing my wounds, waiting like a dog on the threshold for his master for our form to come back. I didn't expect anything from Balo, and I didn't really expect us to score like swashbucklers with our pirate captain off in Catalonia. But I did expect that press. The fucking mad swarming of the opposition that had Spurs pissing their union suit and Arsenal soiling their underdrawers - the energy, the aggression, the "fuck you, we're coming at you" attitude (embodied especially by Hendo) in those thermonuclear ass-beatings we gave the London pricks, and the Blueshite, and the fucking mancs. I wanted and expected us to make the other teams nervous again with our energy and our sense of purpose and it never happened.

I'm sure there are loads of reasons, justifiable and otherwise, why we didn't. The mistakes in the transfer window, yada yada yada - we've been through it ad nauseum until you want to puke from it. I only bring it up now to say what a welcome relief it is to see us pushing back again. I'm sure there are differences great and small between the gegen now and the "pressing" (if the term suits) we were doing two years ago. It's just so fucking gratifying to go after the ball carrier, to play on the front foot, to act like we've got some testes.

This post is not about Brendan Rodgers - it is not meant as a thinly-veiled criticism of our former manager, who I respect. I am just celebrating the return of our ballsiness. This is about the here and now. At no point did I feel like I was being poisoned Saturday - not even after the prick scored that early goal. It was a properly joyous occasion, a properly entertaining game of football. Chelsea are shit at the minute, there's no denying that, but we took control of that game and determined the outcome. Long may it continue.

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

Still buzzing about the game to be honest. Brilliant original post, too, by the way.

Chelsea were more than there for the taking. The only worry I had when we were a goal down was our ability to brake the proverbial cock-block of not only failing to get back into the game by coming from behind, but also scoring more than one goal in a game. We managed to progress on both fronts within the space of ninety minutes and this is something not to be sneezed at. It further illustrates the impact Jurgen Klopp has made at our club within such a short space of time. Simply put, this is what world class managers do. They sniff blood in the water and by fuck didn't Jurgen do just that on Saturday? Buzzing to fuck!

Lovren - our new DM?

Hehe, he'll get his chance. Judging by how compact we are, which includes our CBs taking up positions of defensive fucking midfielders, Lovren will get his chance to showcase his abilities. It's a new slate for the man, and one I hop he'll grasp in time. Just not as a DM

Skrtel - his best performance this season?

I'd go as far to say it's one of his best performances for us in a back four. He was imperious from the opening whistle. Had the spaghetti western looking fucker in his pocket all day. He has some mongrel in him form time to time; if only he can show it a bit more often. Both he and Sakho were immense. The big challenge will be against Palace when Bolaise is in town.

Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for containment first, the latter for high pressing/counter-attacking?

Still hard to say, IMO. Once Henderson is back, I think we'll find out which one is best. Lucas and Henderson have demonstrated in the past that they work very well together, however I'm not sure Hendo is suited to a two and perhaps will revel more in a three. Time will tell.

Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?

Indeed. I get the feeling Klopp is a huge admirer; the quasi-wedding album photos post-match were some sort of indication, albeit in a perverse sense . Seriously, though - a great option to have off the bench insofar as putting the shits up the opposition late in matches. Like Lovren, think he'll get his chance.

Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will see more in big games like this?

No way. If he's 100 percent fit, he starts. The man is a beast and has scored a goal every 143 minutes in the PL for us so far. All he needs is a string of games and he'll score for fun with the likes of Phil and Bob feeding him. Just on the latter, really think he'll kick on from here, too.

Mourinho - Iīve nothing to say.

How great was it? We've heard this c*nt spout enough shite for the last ten years. More silence will be forever welcomed and I'm sure we'll get it. They'll struggle this week in the CL and I really believe Stoke will turn them over on the weekend, basically leaving the Special One left carrying the can, as well as his P45. 


Away from Maureen, knocked up some further thoughts and player ratings on my blog. Linked them up on the post-match thread, too.

http://simongkirk.blogspot.com/2015/11/player-ratings-chelsea-fc-vs-liverpool.html

[Giono]

snip

If that is what we can produce after 3 weeks it really does bode well for the future I just hope everyone forgets about playing Football Manager etc picking out new players from wherever our manager will worry about that going forward we all should catch this train as its starting to leave the platform because i for one get the feeling its a one way with no stops and cant wait for the ride

Great post. I find the discussions about who to buy and how much someone costs so uninteresting these days. I'm really curious about which player we have that is going to step up their game this week. We truly have momentum.

Reading that last paragraph of your post reminded me of some lines from the soul classic Love Train by the O'Jays:

Please don't miss this train at the station
Cause if you miss it, I'll feel sorry, sorry for you

[DanA]

I really like the approach taken against Chelsea, people can complain about not having a proper striker but away at Stamford bridge we dominated possession and I think a lot of that was a consequence of our false nine setup which was able to overload midfield. To my thinking it's an option to consider going forward for tough European fixtures or when Sturridge and Benteke are tired/injured.  Most impressive was the fantastic team pressing effort, everybody was good but I thought Firmino and Lucas stood out with their ability to win the ball and keep play moving forward, these two are obviously going to be important going forward.

I still feel like the balance isn't quite right. Can as CM isn't quite dynamic enough, nor consistent enough in general play and I think Milner as a wide option lacks ideal dynamism to be on the wing and we'd benefit from a proper goal scorer to compliment our other guys in attack. I do rate Milner as a players though and his pressing is an asset, if other options weren't as one paced as Firmino, Lallana and Coutinho then I think he'd be a great player for us.  I think Sturridge potentially on the right wing and Henderson could really add to this setup but already to me it looks a step up from performances under Rodgers earlier this season.

All in all though we've got to be happy with the direction things are moving.

[mercury]

I will contribute more to this thread when I get home but at one stage in the first half, we had our whole outfield setup inside the chelsea half. All 10 players over the halfway line inside their half. It struck me as it was very defined and structured. Skrtel and Sakho maybe five yards in off the centre, full backs pushed right up.

This was also after going one down. Again, struck me for many reasons. Klopp has talked about playing inside the opposition half and this was the first proper time I seen it in practise since he took over. The mentality to do that after the early setback shows so many positives its hard to for me to write them all down.

The most pleasing part of our improvement, showing that it's not just due to the novelty or charisma of a new manager -- which ours has shroves, but real progress of players getting to grips the manager's idea and what's required of them.

Love Sakho,  Love Sakho, Love Sakho.  Am mentally prepared myself to eat humble pie on Benteke, which is great.

[Grobbelrevell]

Lovren - our new DM?

Ha! Let's not get ahead of ourselves, but what I will say is it's nice to see Klopp actively attempting to utilise the attributes of all of the players at his disposal (Jose Enrique aside), and whatever you think of Dejan and how he's fared in a red shirt thus far, he does have attributes that we can and should be looking to utilise to our benefit. It's the intelligent way to manage a squad of players. It also can't hurt to keep those on the periphery feeling involved, because they will be needed during the course of the season. Long may that continue.

Skrtel - his best performance this season?

Skrtel was very good away at The Emirates as well, but then that was a set-up ideally suited to Skrtel's strengths and how he prefers to approach the game. In other words, for large portions of that game we deployed a mid-low block and Skrtel got to do what he does best - block and head and defend the last line without the fear of anyone running at or behind him. What I liked in this game was that we played a very aggressive defensive line (often finding itself ten yards within the Chelsea half - and driving the much more compact unit we're seeing under Klopp) and yet Skrtel looked largely unflustered. That hasn't been the case previously and is a big plus from his performance this time out. He's still a player I feel can and should be upgraded in the not too distant future, but this kind of performance is a positive sign for the next few months at least.

Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for high pressing/counter-attacking, the latter for containment first?

Maybe. I guess we'll start to see a clearer picture on how Klopp utilises each of these shapes moving forward. Against Spurs though, that looked from the stand to be a 3-2 in midfield for the most part and that was certainly an aggressive, front foot performance in the press.

Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?

He looks a different player since Klopp's arrival, doesn't he? He was never at the level that the hype around him previously suggested, and similarly he hadn't become as poor as his displays this season were intimating. It was all down to confidence, as with a number of our players and the club in general and Klopp is gradually reinstalling that departed belief. Jordan Ibe is a prime example of the difference, evident before your eyes on the football field. Great to see as well, because he's undoubtedly a talent, and an age at which hopefully Klopp can help to mould him into the player that he has the potential to become.

Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will see more in big games like this?

I think as with a number of pertinent questions relating to Liverpool Football Club (what we might see moving forward; what our aspirations should be this season etc) the answer can be found in the shape of Daniel Sturridge. Undoubtedly our most gifted footballer (and goal scorer), should he finally shake off the recurring injuries then he becomes the number one striker at the club that his talent dictates he should be. In that scenario the next question surrounds the shape and system Klopp looks to deploy moving forward, because if it's the 4-2-3-1 that most are expecting him to port over from Dortmund then that leaves Benteke as the next in line. No bad situation to be in for the club, having a striker as capable of him as an option from the bench. The two of them are 1-in-2 strikers, at least, and there aren't many clubs in this league who possess two of those.

That all said, i'll be interested to see what Klopp does when both of them are available. He has played with a strike pairing in the past, and he's referenced this himself since joining the club. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that we see the two of them paired, at least in certain fixtures.

Mourinho - Iīve nothing to say.

Good. I'm sick of hearing it, frankly. I wish those centring their analysis of the game on the man, despite him saying nothing, would reign it in as well.

Its a fascinating psychological shift that really does have an impact on the players. Witness Sakho's rebirth as a defender, a confidence in the team and a bullish attitude that doesn't care so much if we go one down. That's all markedly different to what we saw in the latter Brendan days.

See, I had a slightly different view on this one. For me, when we conceded there was a 5-10 minute spell where our heads went a little bit. Quite astonishingly though, Chelsea didn't sieze that opportunity and once our players realised that the next move wasn't coming from Chelsea we regained our composure and took control of the game. A team in a better place than Chelsea right now might have taken advantage of that lingering self-doubt, but hopefully the fact that we rode that out and went on to win the game in the style that we did will make a difference moving forward and we'll begin to see that mental fragility fade away.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Lovren - our new DM? 

Lovren has always been a ‘confidence’ defender, he can win headers, make tackles has decent passing, hold a high line etc and then have a massive brain fart and it all goes wrong. His biggest problems have always come when he has been forced to defend out wide, particularly when the centre backs split under Rodgers, that’s when he’s out of his comfort zone and when the mistakes come.

I found it odd that Klopp didn’t give those minutes to Allen though. Lucas and Can are both nearing suspensions through accumulating five bookings so we may soon need the likes of Allen to step up, although the return of Benteke could see one of Can, Lucas or Milner dropping to the bench anyway.

Skrtel - his best performance this season?

Best performance for a long time, I said in the pre-match thread that I hope Costa was fit as I think he suits our defenders more than some of their other forwards and it certainly looked that way, both our centre-backs looked really comfortable all game. Jumping ahead somewhat, but I think Palace at the weekend will be a sterner test as they have direct, strong forwards who run in behind which is the type of player our defenders often struggle against. They are also good at set-pieces which is where we can often be weak so it will be interesting to see whether Skrtel in particular can keep this aggressive style going or revert back to type. I think we will be pressed and put under more pressure than Chelsea managed.

Shape - we looked much more dangerous in 4-2-3-1 than 4-3-2-1. Is the former for containment first, the latter for high pressing/counter-attacking?

I think we looked more dangerous as the change in shape coincided with Benteke coming on and gave the team a focal point. We then had an easy out-ball to play directly past Chelsea’s press (or lack of). The key to Benteke is getting players around him quickly and we saw the likes of Lallana and Coutinho busting a gut to get in or around him when the ball is played to him to feed of those knock-downs.

Ibe - flashes that his form is coming back?

The Bournemouth game showed signs of that confidence/arrogance coming back that all footballers need. Don’t think he’s pushing for a starting place (in the League) right now but he’ll get plenty of minutes in the cups and cameo appearances like this in the league to help his development.

Benteke - not the team player Origi/Firmino is but just unplayable in this mood. Is starting with him on the bench something we will see more in big games like this?

Only if Sturridge is fit!! We started the previous three games without Sturridge and Benteke and drew all three. This game was heading for a draw until Benteke was introduced. I don’t think we can afford to start games without either of those two in the line-up, when fit one or both should start. You can see why Rodgers wanted him when playing against teams who defend deep and narrow.

Mourinho - Iīve nothing to say.

x2

[RedKenWah]

I don't want to be the one who dumbs this thread down too much as the responses have been world class. I do think now when i compare games under Jurgen Klopp to Brendan Rodgers, you can see the vast difference in approach. I know that is easier for Jurgen to have that affect as he is relatively new into his reign, where as when we compare Brendan, it's going towards the end of his tenure here, but well the attitude of the players was there to be seen.

Would a Brendan Rodgers side, who had gone to Stamford Bridge, went down within 4 mins, have come back to pull it back 3 - 1. Likely answer is probably no.

Attitude and belief has been brought back, we go down, we will fight back to make it right, thats what i love and this game is the start of that.

Lovren - our new DM?

Haha lets wait and see... probably not but he could be a player that rediscovers himself under Klopp.. not that he didn't have chances under Brendan, which he did, he had a big vote of confidence under him and yet failed to grasp his chance. Hopefully with Klopp, he can gain that form that got him his move and help us be a better team.

Skrtel - his best performance this season?

He was good, but he's been good because he's had a stable partner in Sakho which has helped. I think as has been mentioned in other threads, there is a defined role in the CB partnership of Skrtel & Sakho. Skrtel is the destroyer & Sakho is the one who mops it up... simple and effective and suits him. His handling of Costa was good and his ability to keep his cool with Costa as well, deserves a lot of respect as i can imagine a lot of us who were in his shoes would rather take him down at any given opportunity... so fair play to him.

shape

Interesting about the shape, i think the main contributing factor to the shape though is the players available at present. You can imagine with Sturridge coming back and Benteke being fully fit, i think the decision will be to go with 4 - 2 - 3 - 1 rather than 4 - 3 - 2 - 1. I also think as well if we are going to be light up front, then to pack the midfield with players like Lucas, Can, Henderson, Allen is a solution that does make sense. Have energy in the middle of the pitch and hope to win the ball high up and then threaten the opposition goal. You can understand why having a midfield 3 sitting in front of a back 4 of Lucas and 2 out of 3 of Can, Hendo & Allen makes sense.

Benteke

I think he is a team player, in that i think he gives our players that knowledge that if we ping the ball up to him, he's going to win it. I don't think he's individualistic as maybe what i perceive the question to lead to, but i think as you can tell from the second half, he's a presence and a much appreciated one. I think the main difference though since Klopp has arrived is that players are closer to him. he's not isolated so his flick on's, and rebounds off him are doing something more effective.

Ibe

I think a part of him is the new manager effect, so he's going to want to impress. Also he's been taken away from the spotlight, that will help. Rather than be a guraranteed starter, he's just in the squad so no pressure on him. Also much like other players, it's the same, new manager, new confidence and a renewed effort to impress him so that they can play more often. Not that they should have any need for additional motiviation to perform whilst playing for us, whether that be under Klopp, Rodgers, or whoever... so a criticism of those players as well should be leveled at them.

Jose

I was unimpressed initially, but then i think about it, i like it. Not much mention of Klopp or us in the aftermath of this game, just all about Mourinho & Chelsea... love it now. We can go in, do the business against them, and then slip away almost unnoticed... works for me.