Author Topic: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments  (Read 13042 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« on: August 9, 2005, 01:52:02 pm »
So what did you want this summer? Were you hoping for Wright-Phillips, Torres, Aimar? Or maybe bigger signings still? Zidane, Ronaldo, Ronaldhino? To top it all, maybe you were even hoping to discover the Holy Grail left lying about in your garden shed, or create nuclear fusion when lighting the gas hob?

I've been reading a few comments regarding fans' disappointment over transfers. I'm just not sure what they were expecting. How could Rafa overhaul the squad in any other way?

Let's face it, with the exception of teenage rookies heading initially to the youth team, Liverpool signed only international players this summer, all from two of the top three leagues in the world. I mean, what does Rafa think he's doing there?

The best signings don't have to be those whose arrival has us purring with delight. The history of the game is littered with cases of 'great signings' that didn't pay off, and left-field buys that surprised all with their effectiveness. Of course, there are the opposite examples in both cases, too. That's life.

Just remember that John Barnes, Peter Beardsley, Ray Houghton and John Aldridge were all signed in quick succession in 1987, and yet none probably filled Reds with as much hope and expectation as the arrival of Paul Ince a few years later. All four of the aforementioned players signed by Kenny Dalglish had question marks hanging over them, and three were from small clubs. Ince was a title-winner for United, the England captain and signed from Inter Milan.

So my point remains: wait and see. You don't know what you are judging yet.

Look at it this way. An egg in my hands is just an egg: you might get an omelette from me if you are lucky (and if you are extra lucky, you won't spend the next week in hospital with salmonella poisoning). An egg in the hands of Gordon Ramsey is an ingredient which leads to many possibilities. (Not least an object to throw in anger at the sous chef, but that's another story.)

Rafa hasn't finished in the transfer market, with two players still being sought, but given his budget and how far he has to stretch it, any subsequent signings won't be exciting those who crave only high profile players. Liverpool can only compete with Chelsea by getting the best blend, not the most expensive players.


Fair deal?

Can we ever accurately judge what a player gives to the team, or are our opinions too bound up in what surrounds the player, be it hype, the enduring image of their predecessors, or the scale of their transfer fee? Can we ever be fair?

Are we ever able to make a dispassionate judgement, and put our emotions to one side, in the way the top managers can? After all, we all have our favourites, even if those players aren't cutting it. I'm as guilty as anyone on that score.

That's what sets many of the best bosses apart: they make the kind of tough decisions we would avoid. They pick their sides on what they feel is needed, not what others want.

They are closer to the players, physically –– they spend the week in their company, sit together at lunch, share the same hotels, coaches and planes. Unlike us fans (with the odd exception), they know the players as people.

But we are closer to the players, emotionally. Managers are close, but distant; we are distant, but close. What the manager is looking for, and what we are looking for, are two different things.
 

Expectation

Expectation is pressure. It means you cannot go quietly about your business –– it means you have to dazzle, and dazzle straightaway. New players don't have it easy.

In "Golden Past, Red Future" I talk about how I felt Djibril Cissé would benefit from a disappointing first season, in that it lowered expectations. When he arrived we expected miracles. In fact, the only miracle he delivered was to recover so quickly from injury. What worked in his favour was that his first season wasn't a failure due to his own inadequacies (although he had made an indifferent start), but because he didn't play enough games.

While Harry Kewell played on with niggling injuries, and saw his form dip to critical levels, Cissé's reputation was spared further damage in absentia. Kewell's injury problems saw him booed off in Istanbul. Cissé was a hero.

Kewell reminds me a bit of John Barnes playing for England. Something's not quite right, physically and mentally, but at the same time, doing the basics well and playing his part in team successes will never be enough. Booing morons at Wembley expected John Barnes to repeat his Brazilian wondergoal every game, too blind to see the true contributions he was making.

Will we ever be satisfied with Kewell, or does he now need to work wonders every week? There were times early on last season when I felt he'd played really well, but it was never enough for others. I'm sure I was hard on Emile Heskey when he played his part for the team, but didn't do what I hoped he would with the ball.

It might be beneficial lowering the fans' expectations, especially if they have grown unreasonably high; losing their trust completely is another matter (as that can be hard to recover).

It's a similar story with Morientes –– we hoped for so much, and now some people have given up on him. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a player's form cause such widespread concern as much as a month before the start of the league season, when the first grumbles of 2005/06 appeared.

And still the doubts exist, after four pre-season goals in seven games (some of which he hasn't started, or hasn't played beyond half-time), which is pretty respectable at the best of times. Let's wait until the league season gets into full swing before writing anyone off.

Morientes had the kind of reputation that made him a perfect signing to many (and at a price that was, for once, very reasonable); and yet so far he's seen as failing to deliver. When we do sign new players, be they big names or up-and-coming stars, we need to give them time. Not too long, but long enough.

Regarding the wisdom of any signing this summer, let's wait a bit longer, and see who ends up with egg on their face.

© Paul Tomkins, 2005

Just a few days left to order "Golden Past, Red Future" –– described by the Liverpool Echo as "an excellent account of an unforgettable year in Liverpool's history" –– for the new lower price of £9.99 and enter the prize draw for book and Istanbul goodies.

Click here to enter: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/article.php?id=1261536
« Last Edit: August 10, 2005, 09:28:17 am by Paul Tomkins »

Offline Robbo1980

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,767
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #1 on: August 9, 2005, 02:10:44 pm »
Good stuff Paul.
Have been arguing this case myself (especailly about Mori).

Offline didi

  • A complete Klopp out
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,294
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #2 on: August 9, 2005, 02:12:11 pm »
Have to disagree about Barnes and Beardsley, Barnes was a key figure of a Watford team that reached a cup final and finished runners up in the league and consistantly played well, where as Beardsley came off a great World Cup in 86

Offline richiedouglas

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,116
  • You feed beefburgers to swans!
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #3 on: August 9, 2005, 02:12:57 pm »
I dont really like eggs.

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #4 on: August 9, 2005, 02:25:23 pm »
Have to disagree about Barnes and Beardsley, Barnes was a key figure of a Watford team that reached a cup final and finished runners up in the league and consistantly played well, where as Beardsley came off a great World Cup in 86


I'll concede the point on Beardo, as I was wondering whether to include him or not.

But Barnes had many doubters, from what I recall. Again, I may be wrong, but I thought he was seen as far from a certain success.

Offline Guy Incognito

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
  • Don't Stop The Beat!
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #5 on: August 9, 2005, 02:27:00 pm »
Have to disagree about Barnes and Beardsley, Barnes was a key figure of a Watford team that reached a cup final and finished runners up in the league and consistantly played well, where as Beardsley came off a great World Cup in 86

And Aldo had been banging them in good style for Oxford. Liverpool were just buying the best potential in England before the price: talent ratio went haywire during the 90s. I, for one, remember being well excited by all the purchases that summer. Especially as it was off the back of Rush going to Juve, Everton winning the league and Charlie Nicholas beating us in the Littlewoods final.

Small nit pick though, great article otherwise.

Offline didi

  • A complete Klopp out
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,294
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #6 on: August 9, 2005, 02:31:54 pm »

I'll concede the point on Beardo, as I was wondering whether to include him or not.

But Barnes had many doubters, from what I recall. Again, I may be wrong, but I thought he was seen as far from a certain success.

Remember Barnes signing and I was delighted...he was a scourge when playing against us before signed....remember he nearly knocked us out in the quarters single handed back in 86 when we went onto the double

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #7 on: August 9, 2005, 02:36:23 pm »
I think some folks on here, and elsewhere, feel that winning the European Cup automatically entitles you to two or three gift vouchers redeemable for players valued at £20 million.

Istanbul was good for our club wallet but not that good. Anyway, I don't recall Rafa buying superstars at Valencia and he did right enough there. In fact, his success was highlighted by his teams lack of big names. Albelda, Baraja, Amadeo Carboni, for that matter.

I admit I fell into the trap in the late May early June euphoria, when I, along with a few more on here who really should've known better, was somehow expecting that we would be able to outbid everyone who wanted Joaqeeeeeen.

The rest of the football world rubbed their eyes on the morning of the 26th May and got on with it. So did Rafa. So should we.

Offline IrishDave

  • This custom title is invisible
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,186
  • Insert clever comment here ............
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #8 on: August 9, 2005, 02:38:49 pm »
I do remember a lot of people were not too sure about Barnesy.

He was talented but still had one or two doubters. I mean he cost less than half the £1.9million we payed for Beardo.

I seem to recall Kenny having to field questions about how it was a gamble because black players did not have a history of doing well at Liverpool  :o
Keep your friends close & your enemies won't matter

Offline Mark Walters

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,485
  • * * * * * *
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #9 on: August 9, 2005, 02:39:28 pm »
"Liverpool signed only international players this summer, all from two of the top three leagues in the world."  Crouch?  The Championship?

After winning the European Cup of course the fans expectations are high, not only in terms of what we achieve next season but the players we sign to help us achieve it.  And yes, we're disappointed that there isn't a single big name so far in our signings.  I certainly don't think that's an unrealistic expectation to keep the momentum going from the terraces down to the players.

Sorry about more small nit picking Paul! Good book by the way...
"Maybe in life it's impossible to give 100 per cent to your job. Okay, I'll accept 98 per cent" Rafa Benitez

Offline JayCee

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #10 on: August 9, 2005, 02:39:51 pm »
The real problem for alot of the players this summer is that their preseason games have virtually all been on TV and watched by millions.

Years ago only the few thousand who made it to a little ground in Norway could comment on preseason form, now we all have an opinion.

Morientes and the rest have really been under the microscope this summer  and your spot on to say give them time when the real action starts.
« Last Edit: August 9, 2005, 02:42:20 pm by JayCee »

Offline rafathegaffa

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,116
  • Bang bang Rosie
    • A few songs...
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #11 on: August 9, 2005, 02:41:37 pm »
It's important to wait...
It's just been a bit of a downer in the last couple of days, that's all:
New injuries, loss of Baros, no work permit for Gonzales, losing out on Figo & Milito. Also silly season raises the expectations.
It makes sense that people are a little disillusioned at the lack of transfer fireworks but purely because we play fantasy football - we're not Rafa and, as we are in no doubt, he knows what he's doing.

and Charlie Nicholas beating us in the Littlewoods final.


Didn't the pin-up Perry "Tintin" Groves cross for Nicholas' winner?
That was the first game Liverpool ever lost with Rush on the score sheet.

Offline rednich85

  • Gargantuan Wanker. Intimately linked to Keys and Gray.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,631
  • Stay Black. That's the most important thing.
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #12 on: August 9, 2005, 02:52:04 pm »
Agree with you on kewell, thought he looked much improved at the early part of last season, yet still received criticism because he wasn't dazzling like he has done previously with leeds.

I also think because Morientes is Morientes, he has been given a bit more time by the fans, he hasn't played etc etc

I agree with what your saying, I'm very excited to see what this team is capable of
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons."

@rednich85

Offline armchair manager

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #13 on: August 9, 2005, 02:54:38 pm »
a single big name so far in our signings.

do "big names" win you titles then?

laughable, championship manager nonsense.

Offline mercury

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,747
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #14 on: August 9, 2005, 02:57:38 pm »
spot on.  the moanings have already started when the silly season is still three weeks from closing and the season proper hasn't started yet! 

let's see how the TEAM fare this season.
« Last Edit: August 9, 2005, 04:33:54 pm by mercury »

Offline armchair manager

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #15 on: August 9, 2005, 02:59:31 pm »
spot on.  the moanings have already started when the silly season is still three weeks from closing and the season proper hasn't started yet! 

let's see how the TEAM gare this season.

too much sense in that mate. they would rather cry and whinge.

if we did buy any of these "big names" they would soon be complaining that there aren't enough local lads or british players.

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #16 on: August 9, 2005, 03:01:54 pm »
And Aldo had been banging them in good style for Oxford.


I think you're missing the point a little with that one.

I'm not saying any of these weren't great players in their own right. But you could compare Aldo at Oxford to Andy Johnson (even Peter Crouch) in that most of their goals were in lower divisions, at unfashionable clubs. And as such, not ones to get the fans - in the current mindset - salivating.

However great Aldo was, he wasn't Maradona, or Rudi Voller, or Ruud Gullit - and that's the logic I'm arguing against. In fact, he wasn't even Ian Rush, and seen merely as his poor relation - and yet scored like him.


As for Ruudfood's point on Crouch, his achievements last season were in the Premiership. Had he played for Soton in the Championship? I think it's fair to say we were signing Crouch from the Prem before Soton started their season in the lower league.
« Last Edit: August 9, 2005, 03:03:28 pm by Paul Tomkins »

Offline rafathegaffa

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,116
  • Bang bang Rosie
    • A few songs...
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #17 on: August 9, 2005, 03:04:12 pm »
do "big names" win you titles then?

laughable, championship manager nonsense.

Not necessarily but it makes the close-season more interesting for fans.
Because we are punters rather than pundits, I'll defy anyone to be initially more excited about signing a relatively unknown defensive midfielder rather than a player like Ronaldinho - even if he turns out to be the best in the world in his position.

It's important to be allowed to "reach for the stars" etc, particularly during the summer. It's our right as fans - but we'll get behind whoever we sign, regardless or rank or stardom.

Offline armchair manager

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #18 on: August 9, 2005, 03:16:41 pm »
Not necessarily but it makes the close-season more interesting for fans.
Because we are punters rather than pundits, I'll defy anyone to be initially more excited about signing a relatively unknown defensive midfielder rather than a player like Ronaldinho - even if he turns out to be the best in the world in his position.

It's important to be allowed to "reach for the stars" etc, particularly during the summer. It's our right as fans - but we'll get behind whoever we sign, regardless or rank or stardom.

err, ok.

Offline rafathegaffa

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,116
  • Bang bang Rosie
    • A few songs...
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #19 on: August 9, 2005, 03:20:38 pm »

Offline Corkboy

  • Sworn enemy of Bottlegirl. The Boston Toilet Mangler. Grauniad of the Cidatel. Into kinky S&M with the Lash.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,382
  • Is it getting better?
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #20 on: August 9, 2005, 03:21:16 pm »

Offline Drobs

  • dnegeL
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,842
  • Someday, everything is gonna be different...
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #21 on: August 9, 2005, 03:39:55 pm »
Not necessarily but it makes the close-season more interesting for fans.
Because we are punters rather than pundits, I'll defy anyone to be initially more excited about signing a relatively unknown defensive midfielder rather than a player like Ronaldinho - even if he turns out to be the best in the world in his position.

It's important to be allowed to "reach for the stars" etc, particularly during the summer. It's our right as fans - but we'll get behind whoever we sign, regardless or rank or stardom.


I do agree with you on that one in many respects. It is good to get the fans excited, get a buzz going especially on the back of old big ears. But to be fair a lot of fans don't know too much about Sissoko, or Reina, or Gonzalez so they cant get excited about those, they are unknowns to most.

I for one am very excited about the Sissoko signing, i know what he's all about so thats good. Reina also though i didn't follow him as closely, i know he is a class keeper. The rest are either solid players or prospects/unproven and its hard to know how to feel about that really. Of course you want to get behind your team as much as possible and give the lads full backing but its only understandable for there to be some doubts because we simply aren't sure in the main on what we are getting.

We did enquire about Joaquin earlier this summer and that got a lot of peoples tails up, knowing we needed a right winger and knowing we did have a bit of money to spend if not LOTS. Here we are months down the line and it turned out a 32 year old right winger was our number one option, and we couldn't get him! Again, an understandable anti-climax which has left a few of us a bit miffed, thats clear to see and i don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I do think however that once we have got our remaining three two targets  ;) we'll have had a good summer on the transfer front and we will have strengthened.
« Last Edit: August 9, 2005, 03:41:31 pm by Drobs »
**After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music **

Offline Red-juvenated

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,952
  • "Normal One"
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #22 on: August 9, 2005, 04:04:30 pm »
Dont forget we are still REBUILDING and have not got a settled / established side yet. Rafa needs to get players who will help build a strong 'core' of the team and have quality cover in all positions to keep the team fit for his HIGH TEMPO style. Only after the team is settled is it the right time to bring in a 'flair' player to give it another 'dimension', the next step after 'possibilities'.
Doubters to Believers

Offline azer

  • Misanthrope who thinks we were battered by Sunderland.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,063
  • do i not like orange?
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #23 on: August 9, 2005, 04:42:46 pm »
dont really agree with a lot of that. You can tell a player by watching him in a couple of matches. Mori hasnt delivered and it doesnt look good. Cisse is overhyped and we have no cover for centre back.

our signings have been good imo, but the majority of the points you raised i would argue strongly.
Something quaint and witty.

Offline Drobs

  • dnegeL
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,842
  • Someday, everything is gonna be different...
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #24 on: August 9, 2005, 04:50:04 pm »
dont really agree with a lot of that. You can tell a player by watching him in a couple of matches. Mori hasnt delivered and it doesnt look good. Cisse is overhyped and we have no cover for centre back.

our signings have been good imo, but the majority of the points you raised i would argue strongly.

I MASSIVELY disagree with that. I usually like to give a player a whole season, two games is fuck all and will only lead to what you obviously suffer from, premature ejaculation. Or something like that.  ;)

You need to give players time, a big contributor to my concerns over Crouch. Yes he hit a bit of form but it was only about 6/7 months.
**After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music **

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #25 on: August 9, 2005, 04:56:53 pm »
Cisse is overhyped and we have no cover for centre back.


Cissé is not overhyped. What's overhyped about him?

God-help him if he's scoring goals regularly, as he has been since the start of May, for Liverpool and France, and he still gets written off.

Offline Drobs

  • dnegeL
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,842
  • Someday, everything is gonna be different...
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #26 on: August 9, 2005, 05:04:21 pm »

Cissé is not overhyped. What's overhyped about him?

God-help him if he's scoring goals regularly, as he has been since the start of May, for Liverpool and France, and he still gets written off.

That'll be the flaws in judging a player on two games right there Mr T.  ;)
**After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music **

Offline Dread Breath

  • Resident Lecter. Convicted of crimes against Andrew Symonds and pensioned off to Australia.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,726
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #27 on: August 9, 2005, 05:06:42 pm »
dont really agree with a lot of that. You can tell a player by watching him in a couple of matches. Mori hasnt delivered and it doesnt look good. Cisse is overhyped and we have no cover for centre back.

our signings have been good imo, but the majority of the points you raised i would argue strongly.

Think the reason why we haven't got a centre back is because we are waiting for the right person: that's about the start and finish of it, I think.

Cisse will be a cracking player; he's mentally stronger after the travails of last season, and its obvious he's picked up the pace of playing for Liverpool.

Good to see you mention Kewell as well, Paul. Forgotten and written off by most as an attacking force, or indeed, any force at all. Yet he's still very young, and this season injury free after this hernia op(touch wood)

Good piece, Paul.

Blame me for all the draft threads on RAWK

Offline StevieMagic

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #28 on: August 9, 2005, 05:41:13 pm »
How could you compare Aldo to a Crouch or a Johnson rather than a Rushie? Just because he did not wear the shirt of LFC for most f his career does not mean he is the poor relation to Rush. The man sparkled anywhere he went and we were fools to let him go when we did as within a season or so our striker's goals including Rushie dried up. If I am not right we even went out & bought Speedie...now theres a rightful comparison with Crouch or Johnson.

Gentle reminder of Aldo's achievements at lesser clubs than ours dearest.
Banged in a few for Newport & Oxford in the lower divisions...110 goals in 200 plus league appearances

Then when he graduated to the big league, Division 1 with Oxford 1985 - 87 64 games 38 goals...just kept showing his class no matter which league he steped into out and obviously caught our interest.  I can see where you might hint he could be compared to a Johnson or Crouch prior to his arrival in 1987 but then again I dont see Crouch or Johnson having 150 goals in 300 games on their resume at this stage. Aldridge had already consistenly proven himself to be up for the job.

Of course we all know what he did with us and eventually headed off to Spain and led the league there in scoring He did alright for Ireland too after a slow start.

While there is always doubt when buying  a player, the risk we took in Aldridge was a lot less than the one we took a season later when we took Rush back. Rushie had just suffered a serious illness that basically made sure he would never consistently recapture the form we saw in the early- mid 80's.

Poor relation to Rushie? Cmon man Aldridge deserves a little more respect than that and even if he played most of his career with unfashionable clubs he still was one of the best strikers I have ever seen.

PS - The rest of the topic was good of course
« Last Edit: August 9, 2005, 06:09:14 pm by StevieMagic »

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #29 on: August 9, 2005, 06:16:41 pm »
How could you compare Aldo to a Crouch or a Johnson rather than a Rushie?

...

Gentle reminder of Aldo's achievements at lesser clubs than ours dearest.
Banged in a few for Newport & Oxford in the lower divisions...110 goals in 200 plus league appearances


Um, totally missing the point - like the other guy.

ARRRRGGGHHHHHH! :butt   :D

Aldo was class. Where wasn't that clear? As I said in the reply you quoted, he scored goals like Rushie. But he was seen by many as Rushie's poor relation when he was signed. I'm saying Aldo was precisely the kind of player we needed in 1987, but he wasn't a top name in world football. (Rushie was, obviously)

I'm just saying that Aldo - with goals at Newport and Oxford - would not raise pulses if we'd signed him in this same circumstances this summer. Maybe like Crouch, maybe like Johnson, but don't be too literal, please. I'm not comparing them as players.

I was just saying that Aldo wasn't a proven 'world-class' player when he signed. The piece was criticising those who don't like us signing good players because they are not "glamorous" enough.

Clear now?
« Last Edit: August 9, 2005, 06:21:09 pm by Paul Tomkins »

Offline The Jackal

  • GENESIS 1:1
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,546
  • Form is temporary, class is permanent...
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #30 on: August 9, 2005, 06:59:00 pm »
Wise words as always Paul.

I think there will always be fans who are quick to judge, and also reckon that the winning of the European Cup, along with the perception that Chelsea and all their money have 'raised the stakes' have contributed to the idea that we need to make 'massive' signings.

The Figo situation is a case in point - everyone got so excited about that one - and yeah, he's a great player, but I personally feel that the likes of Sissoko and Reina are gonna contribute more to our future success than Figo would've done.

Look at it this way. An egg in my hands is just an egg: you might get an omelette from me if you are lucky (and if you are extra lucky, you won't spend the next week in hospital with salmonella poisoning). An egg in the hands of Gordon Ramsey is an ingredient which leads to many possibilities. (Not least an object to throw in anger at the sous chef, but that's another story.)

So you reckon Rafa might end up chucking Crouchie at Pako?!!?? There's a frightening prospect.. :D
Blanco y en botella. Es leche, no?

Offline StevieMagic

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #31 on: August 9, 2005, 07:58:13 pm »
Well those who want the glam players can head down to Stamford as all I want is proven league players with a smattering of youngsters, which Aldridge was when we bought him. I am sure we can agree on that...on both points I am sure.

Its a tough one ...meeting fans expectations as how about when a player is neither world class or league proven. How should our expectations be? I look at Sissoko who cost us 5.5m (a price tag that leads to presumptions that he is already up for it) and think neither world class or english league proven. I wonder if I be a little bit more excited if we had bought Scott Parker for an extra 1m. I have to be honest and say Parker. Plus he adds to that English backbone all teams claim to need if they want to challenge for the title.

But that is just one case of my expectations as I was discussing on another site that during GH 's first two years he had bought "better" more proven players than Rafa has...so far. Put me in a straight jacket for saying that but while the Zieges, Smicers, Biscans failed to meet our expectations (I wonder what Rafa may have done with those lads.....Biscan compares to Sissoko today but instead of possibly joining Everton he was been linked with the best in Italy)........ the likes of Hamann, Babbel, Heskey, Henchoz & Co were outstanding the first two years. Rafas buys so far have Alonso standing head & shoulders above the rest while the rest including Garcia (if we buy this RM we are all looking for) could find themselves sitting on the bench a lot. But its not about the individual its about the team and Rafa can gell some blaah players together into a CL winning team. Lets see if he can do the same with the league on his second attempt as some of his first buys struggle to meet his expectations nevermind some idiot fans like me

Offline Gnurglan

  • The Swedish Savaloy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 35,544
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #32 on: August 9, 2005, 09:05:54 pm »
Good points as usual.

Agree about Morientes and Cisse. I get the feeling people have given up on Morientes. Despite his injury, I have the impression people expect miracles from Cisse.

Have to admit I am one of those who want us to add a "big name" this summer. It may still happen and I hope it does. We have won the CL. That means we have a great chance of getting the players we want. Not only good players that fit in, but players that would normally be impossible to get.
My point is not that we need to buy a big name for the sake of it. But when we look to strengthen at RM, we can choose to go for a new Nunez, or we can make a move for Joaquin and players in that class. We may have to spend more, but we're also in a unique position. Most likely we will not be champions of Europe by this time next year. Some other team will be flavour of the month and the odds for us to get the best players will be worse. I want us to sign at least one top class player. It's also about sending a message to Chelsea & Co - that we are going to challenge them. On and off the pitch.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Paul Tomkins

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,475
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #33 on: August 9, 2005, 09:35:33 pm »
Well those who want the glam players can head down to Stamford as all I want is proven league players with a smattering of youngsters, which Aldridge was when we bought him. I am sure we can agree on that...on both points I am sure.


Indeed we do.

My whole point was that Aldo was quality but because he didn't play for Real Madrid, he would now be viewed with suspicion.

 :wave

As for Parker, Sissoko is a busier, faster, tougher player. And Parker clearly wants to be first choice, which he wouldn't be with Gerrard, Hamann and Alonso about.

Offline StevieMagic

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #34 on: August 9, 2005, 09:39:49 pm »
There is only one world class player I want and its not Figo, Joaquim & Co but Owen. Most importantly league proven and world class. 

Anyway another thread another time.

I wonder how the class of Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge & Houghton will compare to todays new signings. In terms of expectations I believe the class of 87 had a lot more expectation as they were (1) all full internationals with numerous caps to their name (2) Beardsley was a club record buy at the time (3) Aldridge was baning in the goals like there was no more tomorrow and had done it for years (4) Houghton was having a stormer year with Oxford and like Crouch, outclassed the best of Pool in 87 match with Oxford and we quickly signed him afterwards.

All is all the class of 87  / 88 was the greatest transfer coup the club ever did in such a short span of time. If one of the new crop become as good as one of those lads then it will be job well done.

Offline Darren Page1

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
  • OH Jimmy, Jimmy, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jimmy, Jimmy Case
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #35 on: August 9, 2005, 10:03:26 pm »

I'll concede the point on Beardo, as I was wondering whether to include him or not.

But Barnes had many doubters, from what I recall. Again, I may be wrong, but I thought he was seen as far from a certain success.

I'll concede the point on Beardo, as I was wondering whether to include him or not.

But Barnes had many doubters, from what I recall. Again, I may be wrong, but I thought he was seen as far from a certain success.

Dont thing Barnes quality was in question--just maybe we over paid for him--wasnt it around 900K

Offline hide5seek

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,327
  • We all live in THE 5 EUROPEAN CUPS
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #36 on: August 9, 2005, 10:35:28 pm »
Would love Rafa to get a right winger and cb. Add Owen to the equation and we have a title to chase for real.
Not bothered if I've heard of  our hopefully new cb or winger as I'd not heard of Alonso and look at his class. Big names mean nothing, but big hearts mean everything.

Also can't wait to see Crouchio in action for us. Wasn't over keen on him at first, but having seen him play for us so far he's defo got that something that'll make him special.

Offline woof

  • Barking up the wrong tree.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,709
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2005, 01:54:16 am »

Cissé is not overhyped. What's overhyped about him?

God-help him if he's scoring goals regularly, as he has been since the start of May, for Liverpool and France, and he still gets written off.
Paul, I don't understand some of these supporters. The goal (beaut of a volley) Cisse scored against Kaunas might look as easy as a Sunday stroll in the park but how many so-called top strikers we've seen in the past made a mess of such an opportunity in front of goal. Yeah, sure it looks easy but the timing and position have to be right. Cisse makes it look so easy because he has the right technique and what I like about Cisse most is his playing attitude. Sometimes, players can have the best skills in the world but if they haven't got it right up there, it's no different from a headless chook.

On "glamour signings", I suppose the fickle ones have not taken cue from Real. You could have the flashiest players on earth but it's no guarantee for success.

Offline Manila Vanilla

  • aka Spud Balls!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,482
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
    • Baile Family Website
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2005, 06:17:48 am »
The four examples of transfers given by Paul are good ones:

Peter Beardsley was considered to be the most likely to succeed but there were still nagging doubts. Rejected by Man Utd, played for Vancouver Whitecaps…. Maybe he’d just had a purple patch at Newcastle. We were optimistic but holding our breath.

John Barnes, unlikely as it seems now, was the real gamble. In the Sunday papers, when they graded players, I remember him having the top mark in the whole Championship. But the only people who knew that were reporters who were forced to watch Watford. Nobody else watched Watford and, remember, at the time there were far fewer games on TV.  Everyone else saw him playing for England and judged him unable to perform consistently on a large stage. He was available for ages but nobody else jumped in. The price was laughable but reflected what people thought. We didn’t overpay - he would have been cheap at three times the price.

John Aldridge looked useful but suffered by comparison to Rush. Some people thought we just wanted to buy a lookalike! He was considered a workhorse who’d had a good season and I think it was Bob Paisley who suggested he had nowhere near the skill of Paul Walsh. Andy Johnson is a pretty good analogy.

As for Ray Houghton, he was another whose scurrying made him seem industrious but maybe no more than that. There was also the problem of replacing the charismatic Craig Johnston. He was never high profile but was extremely effective.

It’s fair to say that people like Paul Ince and even Nigel Clough caused more excitement as they looked, logically, to be the missing piece in the jig-saw. We didn’t have great expectations about the first four players, with the possible exception of Beardsley. They were inspired but not obvious signings at the time.

Offline Hong Kong Phooey

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Great Expectations, Grave Disappointments
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2005, 08:03:09 am »
I very much enjoyed reading your article, as I have with many of your other in recent months. I have never directly responded to one of your articles before, but felt obliged to on this occasion.

I rarely post on the forums, but did yesterday and my post was entitled "Dissapointed", the topic I was raising was my dissapointment thus far with the incoming signings to LFC. This coupled with my user name on the forum being Hong Kong Phooey led me to take your opening paragraph or two a little more personally than normal :)

I agree with many of the points you make, indeed many of the themes raised in response to my post yesterday are more than valid. Though as usual many people hadn't actually bothered to read my post before replying.

I do see the positives in the signings we have made, and have total faith in our manager - however I did expect our siginigs to be more excited than "yes he's solid and I can see how that's improved the squad", I realise LFC have financial limitiations and also in three weeks time the picture may have altered especially if we get a good result against CSKA.

Until then I will remain a little dissapointed, and desperately hope things change over the next few weeks and my belief that we haven't done enough in the transfer market is proved utterly wrong over the course of the season.