Topic: Wildlife Welfare thread

[Toon-Mick]

This is my first thread on here so please be kind to me.

Some of you may know that on the 12th August the Grouse shooting season opens.  Grouse shooting may be seen as a way of people shooting for the table and it is.  The price of Driven Grouse Shooting is usually £1000's of pounds and it's classed as a 'sport' of the rich.  In reality we all pay for it, we subsidise gun licences and we also subsidise the moors themselves through the EU and almost certainly from the government once we leave the EU.  We do and will do this while people use food banks, pay the bedroom tax and others struggle to have a comfortable life.

Other than that, the Grouse moors are bereft of anything other than an animal which is reared to shoot so that the rich can have fun.  Gamekeepers kill our native wildlife to protect Grouse so that rich people can kill Grouse for 'fun'.

Stoats, Weasels, Fox, Scottish Wild Cats, pet Cats, pet Dogs, Magpies, Hen Harriers, Red Kites, Golden Eagles, Peregrine Falcon, Buzzards, Common Gulls, Mountain Hares are killed in their hundreds, possibly thousands, Ring Ouzel, Badger, Crow, Rabbitt, Deer, Pheasant, Red and Black Grouse, Short Eared Owl, Kestrel, Jackdaw, Sparrow Hawk, Partridge, Raven and Pine Martin are all killed by either shooting, poisoning or trapping.

Other problems caused by Grouse shooting is floods caused by water running off the barren moors, some of this is on purpose as drainage ditches are created to keep the moors dry because the Grouse like it that way.

Many tonnes of lead are fired into the environment and some of that ends up in the birds which is sometimes sold in supermarkets or worse, given to food banks and given to the less well off. 

Some of the animals killed, well, a lot of the animals killed are left lying around and surrounded by snares so that more animals can be killed.

Can I ask all UK citizens to sign the petition created by Dr Mark Avery (former Conservation Director of the RSPB and supported by Chris Packam, DR Brian May, Bill Oddie and many others.

The petition is trying to reach 100,000 signatures by 30th September and has reached 72,000 within the last hour.  100,000 signatures will give us a chance to have a debate in parliament and we can take the issue to another level.  It is unlikely that Driven Grouse Shooting will be banned but this will put pressure on people to stop the slaughter of our wildlife.

A lot of people may not care about what happens on the moors but we all should because once our wildlife had gone, it's gone.  By signing the petition you're giving yourself the chance to see wildlife which may become extinct, at least in England.  We should have more than 300 breeding pairs of Hen Harriers, this year we have 3 breeding pairs and not one of those is on a Grouse moor which is perfect habitat for them.

Please sign https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125003 and ask your family and friends to do the same.

Here's some videos if anybody want to know more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHAzbAvr8Xg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8YjOa0xVJk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EljC03eMY54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0-TSQfSpMw

Thanks.

[cloggypop]

Needs a link to the petition

[cloggypop]

It's just on Tapatalk that it's not showing.


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125003

[Toon-Mick]

Here's another couple of videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RROGOOYibQ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbDYowcccWg

[Corkboy]

Anyone who kills animals for "sport" or "fun" is a piece of shit.

[Red-Soldier]

Anyone who kills animals for "sport" or "fun" is a piece of shit.

It's very big business, people can pay 10s of thousands of pounds for a couple of days shooting.

[tbonejones]

Signed.

[Titi Camara]

Anyone who kills animals for "sport" or "fun" is a piece of shit.

Was chatting with an American guy, who's on the periphery of the team I game with on Xbox, the other night.

Turns out he hunts for "sport", something I told him outright disagree with, but he also uses "every part" of any animals he kills. He also claimed the meat made up an important part of his winter stores.

Still couldn't condone it unless he literally can't afford to feed himself otherwise.....which was not the case with him!

[Titi Camara]

It's very big business,

As is fraud, the sale of illegal drugs and weapons, slavery etc

Not 100% what your point is?

[Corkboy]

Was chatting with an American guy, who's on the periphery of the team I game with on Xbox, the other night.

Turns out he hunts for "sport", something I told him outright disagree with, but he also uses "every part" of any animals he kills. He also claimed the meat made up an important part of his winter stores.

Still couldn't condone it unless he literally can't afford to feed himself otherwise.....which was not the case with him!

Then it's clear he has a very small penis and no balls.

[Red-Soldier]

As is fraud, the sale of illegal drugs and weapons, slavery etc

Not 100% what your point is?

Then why wade in with a whopper of a post, attacking me and not having a clue!

I just stated a fact, it is big business and people can pay 10s of thousands of pounds to do it.

[Titi Camara]

Then why wade in with a whopper of a post, attacking me and not having a clue!

I just stated a fact, it is big business and people can pay 10s of thousands of pounds to do it.

Someone posted a point of view, their opinion. You replied with a fact, unless that fact clearly supports or opposes the quoted opinion then it doesn't offer much it taking the dialogue forward.

[HarryLabrador]

Anyone who kills animals for "sport" or "fun" is a piece of shit.

Hear, hear!

[Toon-Mick]

It's very big business, people can pay 10s of thousands of pounds for a couple of days shooting.

They can pay a small fortune which goes to the rich land owners, the ones most of us sibsidise.  You hear claims that a lot of people are employed on shooting estates but I would love to see a breakdown of the figures.  Most shooting estates have a hand full of gamekeepers at most and might have between 10 and 30 shoots a year.  During shoots they'll probably have one person per shooter loading and maybe 20 or 30 people walking around with flags chasing the Grouse towards the guns.  The numbers being employed on a shooting estate will be no more than those employed at a local convenience store when you work it out over a year.

I live reasonably close to a Grouse moor and the local area gets nothing coming into the economy from shooters as they arrive and stay on the shooting estate in their own accommodation.  The estate has 2 gamekeepers in full time work and they take a couple of others on at certain times, I'm not even sure they pay proper wages, I'm sure it's cash in hand.  Other than that they pay a pittance for the people who do all of the leg work walking over the moor and chasing the birds.

[Elmo!]

This is a massive issue in Scotland.

Aside from the massive impact it has on wildlife, we have the ridiculous situation where people in villages in the remotest parts of Scotland, where the is plenty of space, cannot afford to buy a property because land is so expensive - due to the big shooting estates. Half of Scotland is owned by just 500 people - apparently the most inequitable land ownership in the western world.

[Jiminy Cricket]

This is a massive issue in Scotland.

Aside from the massive impact it has on wildlife, we have the ridiculous situation where people in villages in the remotest parts of Scotland, where the is plenty of space, cannot afford to buy a property because land is so expensive - due to the big shooting estates. Half of Scotland is owned by just 500 people - apparently the most inequitable land ownership in the western world.

Just take it - take it all! I This is, after all, how their ancestors acquired the land in the first place. This is one of those occasions where nationalisation (without compensation) is exactly the right thing to do and what is fair.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/10/scotland-land-rights

Take their land (which they stole) and their (ill-gotten) gains and put them in a Gorbals council flat. Apologies to those living in Gorbals.

Was chatting with an American guy, who's on the periphery of the team I game with on Xbox, the other night.

Turns out he hunts for "sport", something I told him outright disagree with, but he also uses "every part" of any animals he kills. He also claimed the meat made up an important part of his winter stores.

Still couldn't condone it unless he literally can't afford to feed himself otherwise.....which was not the case with him!

Not withstanding the main point of this thread (that there is something seriously wrong with people who hunt for sport (pleasure)), I think that hunting for food is far preferable to factory farming. Wherever hunting occurs in the world, (and although I do not personally understand it) there is camaraderie and an associated culture (I don't think this should be defining characteristic of what are more or less acceptable forms of obtaining meat). The distinction (for me) is this: do these (so-called) hunters do this to put food on the table or to sell on for a profit (does the individual doing the killing profit from their activity); or do they pay for 'the pleasure of killing'?

When people go around cities in the UK killing animals for pleasure, they are arrested, will be up on charges, and will probably receive a psychiatric assessment. I fail to see how their paying for the pleasure of killing for killing's sake in the countryside makes it all OK. It all goes to the same problem as disproportionate land ownership: privilege, entitlement and being held to different standards.

[Umbarto]

Have hunted for years and not once did I look at it as sport, strictly a means of either population control/herd management or an alternate way to put meat on the table.

Sport hunters are scum of the earth.  Enjoyment of death simply because they are near the top of the food chain due to technological advancement.

Shame.

[HumanRed]

Never knew about this (clearly not in the right relevant social circles) It's about the intention here, if they're hunting for meat that's obviously different to hunting fun. Hunting for fun is deplorable.

[jDJ]

If you really care about animal welfare, shooting a bird out of the sky for your dinner is significantly less cruel than going to buy chicken breasts from asda.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Have hunted for years and not once did I look at it as sport, strictly a means of either population control/herd management or an alternate way to put meat on the table.

Sport hunters are scum of the earth.  Enjoyment of death simply because they are near the top of the food chain due to technological advancement.

Shame.

You're amazing.

[Kenny's Jacket]

This is my first thread on here so please be kind to me.

Some of you may know that on the 12th August the Grouse shooting season opens.  Grouse shooting may be seen as a way of people shooting for the table and it is.  The price of Driven Grouse Shooting is usually £1000's of pounds and it's classed as a 'sport' of the rich.  In reality we all pay for it, we subsidise gun licences and we also subsidise the moors themselves through the EU and almost certainly from the government once we leave the EU.  We do and will do this while people use food banks, pay the bedroom tax and others struggle to have a comfortable life.

Other than that, the Grouse moors are bereft of anything other than an animal which is reared to shoot so that the rich can have fun.  Gamekeepers kill our native wildlife to protect Grouse so that rich people can kill Grouse for 'fun'.

Stoats, Weasels, Fox, Scottish Wild Cats, pet Cats, pet Dogs, Magpies, Hen Harriers, Red Kites, Golden Eagles, Peregrine Falcon, Buzzards, Common Gulls, Mountain Hares are killed in their hundreds, possibly thousands, Ring Ouzel, Badger, Crow, Rabbitt, Deer, Pheasant, Red and Black Grouse, Short Eared Owl, Kestrel, Jackdaw, Sparrow Hawk, Partridge, Raven and Pine Martin are all killed by either shooting, poisoning or trapping.

Other problems caused by Grouse shooting is floods caused by water running off the barren moors, some of this is on purpose as drainage ditches are created to keep the moors dry because the Grouse like it that way.

Many tonnes of lead are fired into the environment and some of that ends up in the birds which is sometimes sold in supermarkets or worse, given to food banks and given to the less well off. 

Some of the animals killed, well, a lot of the animals killed are left lying around and surrounded by snares so that more animals can be killed.

Can I ask all UK citizens to sign the petition created by Dr Mark Avery (former Conservation Director of the RSPB and supported by Chris Packam, DR Brian May, Bill Oddie and many others.

The petition is trying to reach 100,000 signatures by 30th September and has reached 72,000 within the last hour.  100,000 signatures will give us a chance to have a debate in parliament and we can take the issue to another level.  It is unlikely that Driven Grouse Shooting will be banned but this will put pressure on people to stop the slaughter of our wildlife.

A lot of people may not care about what happens on the moors but we all should because once our wildlife had gone, it's gone.  By signing the petition you're giving yourself the chance to see wildlife which may become extinct, at least in England.  We should have more than 300 breeding pairs of Hen Harriers, this year we have 3 breeding pairs and not one of those is on a Grouse moor which is perfect habitat for them.

Please sign https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125003 and ask your family and friends to do the same.

Here's some videos if anybody want to know more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHAzbAvr8Xg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8YjOa0xVJk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EljC03eMY54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0-TSQfSpMw

Thanks.

Whilst I fully endorse the sentiment of your post, the sentence in Bold is stupid, bordering on offensive. 

[Devon Red]

If you really care about animal welfare, shooting a bird out of the sky for your dinner is significantly less cruel than going to buy chicken breasts from asda.

That's not really the issue being discussed. Grouse shooting on this scale is mass killing for sport, and not all of them end up on the dinner table anyway. The main problem is the intensive 'management' of the land to support grouse and only grouse - other wildlife is culled. It's a very wasteful, unsustainable way to get meat, which isn't the main purpose anyway. The meat is a byproduct of the 'sport', which surely is the wrong way round. So all in all a very different prospect to a days hunting to feed the family.

[Umbarto]

You're amazing.

I know, baby.  You too. 

[jillcwhomever]

That's not really the issue being discussed. Grouse shooting on this scale is mass killing for sport, and not all of them end up on the dinner table anyway. The main problem is the intensive 'management' of the land to support grouse and only grouse - other wildlife is culled. It's a very wasteful, unsustainable way to get meat, which isn't the main purpose anyway. The meat is a byproduct of the 'sport', which surely is the wrong way round. So all in all a very different prospect to a days hunting to feed the family.

It is thanks to this practice that there are almost no Hen Harriers in England now. The ruthless gamekeepers have seen to that with their over zealous "control", which basically means killing any bird of prey unfortunate to be within the area of their land. All amounts of protected species are now being pushed to the limit, for their disgusting practice, and breaking the laws of the land as they do so as well.

Signed.

[jillcwhomever]

Here's some more information on the plight of the Hen Harrier which is really in crisis now.

The Inglorious 12th

There should be 340+ pairs of Hen Harriers nesting in England but this year there are just 3 pairs. The difference is due to criminal activity by those who shoot Red Grouse for sport and profit. Hen Harriers are ruthlessly persecuted on their potential breeding sites and at winter roosts even though they have been fully protected by law for 60 years.

But this year the friends of the Hen Harrier are fighting back - and that includes Rare Bird Alert who sponsored the Hen Harrier pages in the BTO/BWI/SOC Bird Atlas.

On 10 August 2014 three events are planned, open to the public, where birders, ramblers, anyone who cares, can protest by raising their voice against illegal killing of this magnificent bird. The events will take place in the Forest of Bowland (Lancashire), the South Tyne Trail (Northumberland) and the Derwent Dam (Derbyshire Peak District).

Chris Packham will be attending the Peak District event. The aim of these events is simple - to publicise the plight of the Hen Harrier and to express our outrage just ahead of the opening of the Red Grouse shooting season on 12 August - the so-called 'Glorious 12th'. We are working, with the RSPB and others, on how those who cannot attend these events can also add their voices on the day through social media actions.

[Umbarto]

Just curious as I didn't do any hunting while I lived in the UK so didn't read up extensively on the laws, are there not strict daily limits per species/per shooter or is it basically a free for all?

Really surprised at people allowed to kill the predatory birds though, that's a massive no-no over here.

[Elmo!]

Just curious as I didn't do any hunting while I lived in the UK so didn't read up extensively on the laws, are there not strict daily limits per species/per shooter or is it basically a free for all?

Really surprised at people allowed to kill the predatory birds though, that's a massive no-no over here.

It is illegal to shoot birds of prey in the UK. Still happens though.

[Umbarto]

Still happens though.

Oh it happens here as well, just a rarity as the vast majority of hunters I've been around here still appreciate a predator's place in the ecosystem, nevermind the fact it's just not worth the penalties if caught.

Going by what I've read above I can only assume it's just not taken quite as seriously there as the money trumps all?  I imagine the vast swaths of land available here for habitat compared to the limited amounts there make for quite contrasting scenarios.  Still, one would think that would make people, hunters and non-hunters alike, take better notice of the limited amounts of wildlife habitat available to try and preserve things a bit better.

[jillcwhomever]

Oh it happens here as well, just a rarity as the vast majority of hunters I've been around here still appreciate a predator's place in the ecosystem, nevermind the fact it's just not worth the penalties if caught.

Going by what I've read above I can only assume it's just not taken quite as seriously there as the money trumps all?  I imagine the vast swaths of land available here for habitat compared to the limited amounts there make for quite contrasting scenarios.  Still, one would think that would make people, hunters and non-hunters alike, take better notice of the limited amounts of wildlife habitat available to try and preserve things a bit better.

It doesn't help that that the Tory party is full of hunters and shooters as well. Cameron made a former Estate owner minister of Wildlife, so basically the law gets ignored. The system of government here is so geared towards the big estates, that the animal protection groups are constantly having to fight the odds. The idea of the Conservatives in power for a long time here, is just horrific if you love wildlife, they will barely be anything left.

[bigbonedrawky]

Calling it hunting is like shooting fish in a barrel and calling it fishing, there is no stalking involved it's just live target practice.
The floods which they have undoubtedly contribute to, have cost billions and the taxpayers have paid millions to subsidise this pastime.Meanwhile the budgets for flood defences have been cut in recent years.   

[Toon-Mick]

Whilst I fully endorse the sentiment of your post, the sentence in Bold is stupid, bordering on offensive.

Which bit in bold?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/foodbanks-homeless-shelters-offering-lavish-6925155

The attached was sold in a supermarket.

[Toon-Mick]

If you really care about animal welfare, shooting a bird out of the sky for your dinner is significantly less cruel than going to buy chicken breasts from asda.

How many of the animals mentioned in my earlier post are killed to eat?  If they're killed to eat why do they give them away?  Why do they leave them in what is known as stink pits?  I can show you photographs where many hundreds of mountain hares are killed, I can show you photographs of piles ob bodies of all sorts of animals which have been killed for fun and dumped but I'll not because they are unpleasant.

[Toon-Mick]

Here's some more information on the plight of the Hen Harrier which is really in crisis now.

The Inglorious 12th

There should be 340+ pairs of Hen Harriers nesting in England but this year there are just 3 pairs. The difference is due to criminal activity by those who shoot Red Grouse for sport and profit. Hen Harriers are ruthlessly persecuted on their potential breeding sites and at winter roosts even though they have been fully protected by law for 60 years.

But this year the friends of the Hen Harrier are fighting back - and that includes Rare Bird Alert who sponsored the Hen Harrier pages in the BTO/BWI/SOC Bird Atlas.

On 10 August 2014 three events are planned, open to the public, where birders, ramblers, anyone who cares, can protest by raising their voice against illegal killing of this magnificent bird. The events will take place in the Forest of Bowland (Lancashire), the South Tyne Trail (Northumberland) and the Derwent Dam (Derbyshire Peak District).

Chris Packham will be attending the Peak District event. The aim of these events is simple - to publicise the plight of the Hen Harrier and to express our outrage just ahead of the opening of the Red Grouse shooting season on 12 August - the so-called 'Glorious 12th'. We are working, with the RSPB and others, on how those who cannot attend these events can also add their voices on the day through social media actions.

Chris is getting absolutely slaughtered by those who are killing for fun, they're trying to get him sacked from the BBC and the abuse is off the scale.  Here's a video which he made on the subject today, he gets his points over really well.  https://www.youtube.com/embed/Mrb3RIrQlE0

[Toon-Mick]

Just curious as I didn't do any hunting while I lived in the UK so didn't read up extensively on the laws, are there not strict daily limits per species/per shooter or is it basically a free for all?

Really surprised at people allowed to kill the predatory birds though, that's a massive no-no over here.

They don't have day limits, they can and do go out and kill as many as they can shoot, I've attached one example where Mountain Hares are slaughtered on an industrial scale and I have many more photographs.  This happens on the same estates as the Grouse are shot, Hare shooting is a cheaper way of having fun.

Birds of Prey are protected but they're usually killed well away from the public.

[Toon-Mick]

It doesn't help that that the Tory party is full of hunters and shooters as well. Cameron made a former Estate owner minister of Wildlife, so basically the law gets ignored. The system of government here is so geared towards the big estates, that the animal protection groups are constantly having to fight the odds. The idea of the Conservatives in power for a long time here, is just horrific if you love wildlife, they will barely be anything left.

Read this https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/04/buzzard-licence-kill-slaughter-wildlife-natural-world and you'll see that this is the same judge who decided that killing badgers was OK.  The gamekeeper who has been granted this licence to kill Buzzards, the first ever, was almost certainly the one convicted of carrying poison which is used for illegally killing birds of prey.  They've allowed a criminal to kill UK wildlife to protect a foreign species which we think 40,000,000 million of are released into the wild every year to be shot.  How they'll ever know how many is killed is impossible to tell, he'll probably kill everyone he sees and will just say it's one of his allocated 10.

[Umbarto]

Holy shit.  That's actually quite surprising that there aren't any limits.  Hunting Grouse in my state there's a 3 per day limit per hunter with a maximum of 30 per 4+ month season.  Even rabbit there's a 5 per day limit and the little bastard grey squirrels that are everywhere have an 8 per day limit.

Just goes to show the differences in nations and divides in classes.  Vast majority of the hunters in the States are working class or farmers that have sort of a symbiotic relationship with the land and it's wildlife.  We don't abuse the land because we live off the land.

Really is a shame to see the affluent raping the land when they have done nothing, and probably will never do anything, to improve it or the quality of life for the animals that populate the area.  Then again, I think it's more of a disgrace to see people that consider themselves responsible landowners and 'gameskeepers' enabling these people to do whatever they like.

Money talks.  Will never change without the landowner's support, unfortunately.

[Toon-Mick]

Holy shit.  That's actually quite surprising that there aren't any limits.  Hunting Grouse in my state there's a 3 per day limit per hunter with a maximum of 30 per 4+ month season.  Even rabbit there's a 5 per day limit and the little bastard grey squirrels that are everywhere have an 8 per day limit.

Just goes to show the differences in nations and divides in classes.  Vast majority of the hunters in the States are working class or farmers that have sort of a symbiotic relationship with the land and it's wildlife.  We don't abuse the land because we live off the land.

Really is a shame to see the affluent raping the land when they have done nothing, and probably will never do anything, to improve it or the quality of life for the animals that populate the area.  Then again, I think it's more of a disgrace to see people that consider themselves responsible landowners and 'gameskeepers' enabling these people to do whatever they like.

Money talks.  Will never change without the landowner's support, unfortunately.

The Hares are a species which we don't know the numbers of yet as I said, they are killed on an industrial scale.  This happens so that the rich landowners can make more money and because they carry a tick.  The Grouse is where the real money is and the Grouse have ticks which they pass to Hares and Hares pass them back.  The problem is massive because Grouse are now reared in such huge numbers to be shot.  The Grouse also have a problem with worms, the gamekeepers leave out a medicated grit which kills the worms.  The grit started to lose it's effectiveness so they now use a grit which is up to 20x stronger than the original and this could be getting into the human food chain. 

They also give the Grouse Levamisole hydrochloride orally by catching them at night and pouring it down their throats.  The drug is banned in the USA and Canada.  It can be used to kill worms and it can be used to fight certain types of cancer and it's not regulated when given to Grouse.

The more you learn about the Grouse shooting, the worse it appears. 

[Umbarto]

In all seriousness though, the lack of bag limits and devastation of habitat is enough to warrant action in my opinion... nevermind the barbarity. 

Technically still a UK resident.  Signed.

[Brissyred]

Oh it happens here as well, just a rarity as the vast majority of hunters I've been around here still appreciate a predator's place in the ecosystem, nevermind the fact it's just not worth the penalties if caught.

Mmmm.
Storied Alaska wolf pack beloved for decades has vanished, thanks to hunting
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/09/storied-alaska-wolf-pack-beloved-for-decades-has-vanished-thanks-to-hunting/?hpid=hp_rhp-morning-mix_mm-story-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

[PaisleyPrint]

Signed.

Thanks for the information, I'm too cowardly to open the youtube links though.