Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1066278 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #160 on: January 11, 2018, 03:01:06 am »
I don’t think so. Our attacking record had been pretty good so to me it makes little sense to make us more attacking despite signing VVD.

I think we’ll continue as is though VVD was pretty brilliant. The one chance Everton did get and scored from was a result of an errant pass by Matip. Something I think we need to learn to live with from time to time in a team that plays the ball out of defense.

When Rodgers first arrived, he went on a lot (rightly so) about us all having to be patient with defenders who are passing the ball out of pressure under his instructions. They will get it wrong, but they will get it right far more often. I think the same is happening here, although Klopp never seemed one to want 20 passes in diamond support shape in order to free the one attack who can receive the long one. He keeps it more simple, but players will still have to be constructive with the ball under Klopp, and because of that, they will occasionally get it wrong.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #161 on: January 11, 2018, 12:54:58 pm »
But what I was really referring to are those spells where we start possession from a goal kick, or picking up an opposition clearance deep in our own half. I think in those circumstances we've matured as a side, in that we *don't* assume the Kloppite way is an immediate vertical pass and direct attack, if the opposition is well set in shape. We're comfortable in playing the ball out from the back with much more patience than we might in the past. We even see, quite frequently, that we're prepared to retreat back to the defenders from advanced positions against a well set defence, if no better opportunity presents itself.

I think we're a better, more rounded team than the "counter attacking" tag allows for.
I'd agree with that and it's been noticeable recently especially against the deep lying teams, a confidence to sitback occasionally to take stock, that everything doesn't have to be frantic as if there's two minutes left then a drop off if we can't score after 15 minutes, first noticed it against Huddersfield.

Maturity is probably a good way to describe it because at first the most important thing for the team is to understand at first is what differentiates Klopp from other managers they've played for, the emphasis on winning the ball at a point that can cause the most damage but when that is embedded, you can bring in the provisos, we want to do that but... that can but doesn't always, lead to more balance within a particular style of play, Like any skill, you get the basics rules then you reach a higher understanding when you know when it's ok to break them rules because reality is complex. You stop being mechanical and start adapting to the concrete circumstances
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:58:47 pm by The 92A »
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Offline the 92A

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #162 on: January 11, 2018, 12:59:44 pm »
But what I was really referring to are those spells where we start possession from a goal kick, or picking up an opposition clearance deep in our own half. I think in those circumstances we've matured as a side, in that we *don't* assume the Kloppite way is an immediate vertical pass and direct attack, if the opposition is well set in shape. We're comfortable in playing the ball out from the back with much more patience than we might in the past. We even see, quite frequently, that we're prepared to retreat back to the defenders from advanced positions against a well set defence, if no better opportunity presents itself.

I think we're a better, more rounded team than the "counter attacking" tag allows for.
I'd agree with that and it's been noticeable recently especially against the deep lying teams, a confidence to sitback occasionally to take stock, that everything doesn't have to be frantic as if there's two minutes left then a drop off if we can't score after 15 minutes, first noticed it against Huddersfield.

Maturity is probably a good way to describe it because at first the most important thing for the team is to understand at first is what differentiates Klopp from other managers they've played for, the emphasis on winning the ball at a point that can cause the most damage but when that is embedded, you can bring in the provisos, we want to do that but... that can but doesn't always, lead to more balance within a particular style of play, Like any skill, you get the basics rules then you reach a higher understanding when you know when it's ok to break them rules because reality is complex. You stop being mechanical and start adapting to the concrete circumstances
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Offline HARD AS HELL

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #163 on: January 11, 2018, 09:12:23 pm »
Great thread, thanks to all who have contributed.
This bit of analysis just appeared on the BBC website and adds a little supplementary evidence to the discussion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42655915

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #164 on: February 23, 2018, 08:48:37 pm »
I'd agree with that and it's been noticeable recently especially against the deep lying teams, a confidence to sitback occasionally to take stock, that everything doesn't have to be frantic as if there's two minutes left then a drop off if we can't score after 15 minutes, first noticed it against Huddersfield.

Maturity is probably a good way to describe it because at first the most important thing for the team is to understand at first is what differentiates Klopp from other managers they've played for, the emphasis on winning the ball at a point that can cause the most damage but when that is embedded, you can bring in the provisos, we want to do that but... that can but doesn't always, lead to more balance within a particular style of play, Like any skill, you get the basics rules then you reach a higher understanding when you know when it's ok to break them rules because reality is complex. You stop being mechanical and start adapting to the concrete circumstances
I think that's a spot on assessment, yes!
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #165 on: February 24, 2018, 01:37:17 am »
When Rodgers first arrived, he went on a lot (rightly so) about us all having to be patient with defenders who are passing the ball out of pressure under his instructions. They will get it wrong, but they will get it right far more often. I think the same is happening here, although Klopp never seemed one to want 20 passes in diamond support shape in order to free the one attack who can receive the long one. He keeps it more simple, but players will still have to be constructive with the ball under Klopp, and because of that, they will occasionally get it wrong.

Hollier said the same
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #166 on: February 26, 2018, 07:05:22 am »
Thought this was interesting. This is the set-up I posted in the OP, based on their shape (but not necessarily the personnel) that Klopp used most often at Dortmund:




And this is the shape we had this weekend against West Ham:



So the question is - where will he look to upgrade? I think the central mid position for sure. I think the "Milner" position is Keita. So it's really a controller to push/rotate/replace Henderson/Can? Or can Gini do that job?
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #167 on: February 26, 2018, 08:23:02 am »
Is that where the Jorginho rumour would make sense?
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #168 on: February 26, 2018, 08:36:59 am »
Seems like a broken record but its a crucial transfer window next time.

Vvd already here and Keith in June.

The Jorginho links are exciting and I wouldnt mind an attacker.

Think next season klopp will go out. I still dont class his first 8 months as a season as he had no control over any transfers and he picked up a team bereft of strategy or confidence.

He took 2 years to modify Dortmund so next season for me is the one where he goes for the league and he hopefully has a squad that can push the top teams.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #169 on: February 26, 2018, 08:37:36 am »
Seems like a broken record but its a crucial transfer window next time.

Vvd already here and Keith in June.

The Jorginho links are exciting and I wouldnt mind an attacker.

Think next season klopp will go out and push for the league. I still dont class his first 8 months as a season as he had no control over any transfers and he picked up a team bereft of strategy or confidence.

He took 2 years to modify Dortmund so next season for me is the one where he goes for the league and he hopefully has a squad that can push the top teams.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #170 on: February 26, 2018, 09:21:15 am »
Definitely think we’re set up to be better next season.  We should have a fair chunk of first team players outside the World Cup and a lot of continuity. Certainly Klopp has an opportunity to organise the defense early in preseason as pretty much the entire backline minus maybe only Lovren will be in place.

Same goes with the midfield probably only minus Hendo and one of Oxlade/Lallana.

And I think we’ll only see Migs and Can leave from the current squad with at most four new signings (excluding Keita). So there should be a lot of continuity.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #171 on: February 26, 2018, 09:43:24 am »

And this is the shape we had this weekend against West Ham:



So the question is - where will he look to upgrade? I think the central mid position for sure. I think the "Milner" position is Keita. So it's really a controller to push/rotate/replace Henderson/Can? Or can Gini do that job?

Agree on Keita for Milner. The deepest midfield player is an area I expect us to address, in particular if Can is off. It would also force Henderson to play a different role. I'd imagine that he'd take up AOC's place in that chart. The way I see it we don't have the right player in the squad for the deepest CM role. It feels like we need a 'quarterback' type of solution. I've been missing the aggressive, primarily defensive midfielder, but perhaps we'll solve that if we play Henderson/AOC and Keita as the other two CMs. Then we'll have players who can cover a lot of ground and all we'd need would be the one to control things from behind. Will be interesting to see what we go with.

A new goalie is a possibility, but other than the CM, it's the backup solution for Firmino that I'm most interested in. If we remove Firmino, for whatever reason, then I don't think we have anyone who can fill in. That would force us to play in a different way and I don't know what that would look like today. In your chart, if we put Ings on instead of Firmino, Ings would rather take Salah's role and that would seem odd. I'm a little concerned that we are becoming too dependent on Firmino. Don't get me wrong, I believe we should play our best players as much as possible, but I don't want us to have to change everything if one player is out. Had we had a backup for Firmino, we wouldn't have played him as much as we have. This is an area we need to address for next season. One way or another.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #172 on: February 26, 2018, 09:54:43 am »
We've got his goalkeeper and his centre back now so can't be far off now.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #173 on: February 26, 2018, 10:05:57 am »
If we could get Lallana really fit and firing then he is hard to look past in those line ups, slotted in with the usual 3 up front.  I think he upgrades us immediately.  Would love to see Lallana gel with the others and take the CL by storm. 
A fit and firing Hendo upgrades us as well in my book.  Will be great if we could have these 2 options short term.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #174 on: February 26, 2018, 10:33:35 am »
I expect to see us strengthen our midfield; by that I mean physical beasts who can run all day and who can win the ball back.

We have a front three that don't need much help and so I think we will see our midfield changing a bit. It looks stronger now that it has done with more emphasis on winning the ball back rather than attacking.

Lallana coming back will add more attacking play if we need it but often we don't. Control the midfield and let our front three run riot.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2018, 10:40:31 am »
Definitely think we’re set up to be better next season.  We should have a fair chunk of first team players outside the World Cup and a lot of continuity. Certainly Klopp has an opportunity to organise the defense early in preseason as pretty much the entire backline minus maybe only Lovren will be in place.

Same goes with the midfield probably only minus Hendo and one of Oxlade/Lallana.

And I think we’ll only see Migs and Can leave from the current squad with at most four new signings (excluding Keita). So there should be a lot of continuity.

The World Cup makes pre-season quite interesting. As you say, we're likely to be missing quite a few - Lovren, Henderson, Lallana, Chamberlain, Mane, Salah, Firmino. If he stays, Emre would miss out too. I also think Joe Gomez probably makes the England squad, as he's a good fit in Southgate's back three. But despite missing key players, Klopp will still have plenty of talent to work with.

Keita getting a full pre-season is great - and Jorginho would get the same if we signed him as Italy aren't going to the World Cup. Same with Pulisic. Don't think Klopp would be against signing a player at the World Cup, but he'd certainly prefer to get a full pre-season with any new signing.

It's a bit mental to predict at this stage, but wouldn't surprise me if our starting defence and midfield at the beginning of next season was Karius, Clyne, Matip, Van Dijk, Robertson, Jorginho, Keita, Wijnaldum. They'd all have done a full pre-season and been drilled by Klopp on what he wants from them. Then the guys at the World Cup can be integrated a bit more slowly, although Mane, Salah and Firmino would probably have to contribute quite quickly.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2018, 10:46:19 am »
So adding to Keita, Joyce said a goalkeeper, number 6 and Coutinho replacement are likely right?

If that's the case I think we're just a Firmino understudy shy of a good core of players with decent options, all of which are Klopp's choice. The rotation this season has also been good and effective most of the time...

Can and Migs will go right? Can't see any more of the names that appear on the team sheet going. Maybe Origi too

Also, think its good having Spurs who are one year ahead in terms of development under Pochettino and Arsenal who have regressed in the last year or so very rapidly. A nice couple of reminders of what it can be like if we get to a ceiling or even sustain a good level for a while but don't actually win the league. Their mistakes can be insight for us I mean...or hopefully, for the ones at our club that can make a difference anyway

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2018, 12:28:25 pm »

So the question is - where will he look to upgrade? I think the central mid position for sure. I think the "Milner" position is Keita. So it's really a controller to push/rotate/replace Henderson/Can? Or can Gini do that job?

Think Paul Joyce's article was quite telling at the weekend, saying our priorities in the summer are a goalkeeper, controlling midfielder and a 'Coutinho replacement'. Last year, Klopp had three key priorities - a CB (Van Dijk), dynamic midfielder (Keita) and a quality wide player (Salah). We did business beyond that, but those were the three positions he wanted to improve on in the first XI.

So it seems we're trying to do the same again, bringing in three new signings (plus Naby) who Klopp believes can take us to the next level. Think the keeper and number six would immediately go into that first XI (especially if it's Alisson and Jorginho). I think the Coutinho replacement would be someone like Pulisic or Lemar, who can play in the positions where Chamberlain and Mane are in your graphic.

We might add to the squad beyond that. Potentially a younger CB, if Klopp fancies it – not necessarily someone who’d come in and immediately be the preferred partner to Van Dijk. I’d also hope for an additional attacking signing beyond a Pulisic/Lemar, probably more of a striker.

PoP, do you share my concerns over the lack of quality alternatives at the top of our attack? Or does the durability of Salah and Firmino mean we should be content with Solanke and Ings as the back-ups?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2018, 06:44:13 pm »
Think Paul Joyce's article was quite telling at the weekend, saying our priorities in the summer are a goalkeeper, controlling midfielder and a 'Coutinho replacement'. Last year, Klopp had three key priorities - a CB (Van Dijk), dynamic midfielder (Keita) and a quality wide player (Salah). We did business beyond that, but those were the three positions he wanted to improve on in the first XI.

So it seems we're trying to do the same again, bringing in three new signings (plus Naby) who Klopp believes can take us to the next level. Think the keeper and number six would immediately go into that first XI (especially if it's Alisson and Jorginho). I think the Coutinho replacement would be someone like Pulisic or Lemar, who can play in the positions where Chamberlain and Mane are in your graphic.

We might add to the squad beyond that. Potentially a younger CB, if Klopp fancies it – not necessarily someone who’d come in and immediately be the preferred partner to Van Dijk. I’d also hope for an additional attacking signing beyond a Pulisic/Lemar, probably more of a striker.

PoP, do you share my concerns over the lack of quality alternatives at the top of our attack? Or does the durability of Salah and Firmino mean we should be content with Solanke and Ings as the back-ups?

I think we could go one more attacker. Especially as we'll be defending the Champions League trophy next year and challenging for the title, so we'll need the rotation. ;D ;D ;D
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2018, 06:53:19 pm »
So adding to Keita, Joyce said a goalkeeper, number 6 and Coutinho replacement are likely right?


What position is a ‘Coutinho replacement’? It was my understanding that Coutinho was not a Klopp type player but he made room for him as he is so good. If we look at the roles Coutinho was asked to play he was left of the front 3 originally but this season quite often played in the midfield 3. I’d be surprised if we went for another centre mid considering we’re already getting Keita and it looks like we want a number 6 so that would imply that our ‘Coutinho replacement’ is a wide forward?
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #180 on: February 26, 2018, 07:06:04 pm »
When Keita joins this remarkable team... may G*d help them all! ;)
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Offline brownbear11

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2018, 07:41:59 pm »
What position is a ‘Coutinho replacement’? It was my understanding that Coutinho was not a Klopp type player but he made room for him as he is so good. If we look at the roles Coutinho was asked to play he was left of the front 3 originally but this season quite often played in the midfield 3. I’d be surprised if we went for another centre mid considering we’re already getting Keita and it looks like we want a number 6 so that would imply that our ‘Coutinho replacement’ is a wide forward?

I think definitely a wide forward, and saying Coutinho replacement just drives clicks and perhaps where the money is coming from. Not a like-for-like replacement.

Ideally would be a player that can play anywhere on the front 3. Rotate as necessary. We can't afford 3 players to replace our front 3 like City, but 1-2 that can play anywhere up there would be nice. A certain Griezmann with PC-money would be f*cking brilliant. Timo Werner another solid option.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 07:49:58 pm by brownbear11 »

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2018, 07:46:58 pm »
I’d be surprised if we went for another centre mid considering we’re already getting Keita and it looks like we want a number 6 so that would imply that our ‘Coutinho replacement’ is a wide forward?
I'd be surprised as well as we already have that CM - a 'Coutinho replacement'. He goes by the name of Ben Woodburn.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2018, 07:47:02 pm »
I think we could go one more attacker. Especially as we'll be defending the Champions League trophy next year and challenging for the title, so we'll need the rotation. ;D ;D ;D

Totally agree even two wouldn’t go a miss but maybe overkill

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2018, 07:55:02 pm »
Thought this was interesting. This is the set-up I posted in the OP, based on their shape (but not necessarily the personnel) that Klopp used most often at Dortmund:



And this is the shape we had this weekend against West Ham:



So the question is - where will he look to upgrade? I think the central mid position for sure. I think the "Milner" position is Keita. So it's really a controller to push/rotate/replace Henderson/Can? Or can Gini do that job?

;D

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #185 on: February 26, 2018, 07:55:57 pm »

;D


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Offline redintweed

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #186 on: February 26, 2018, 09:38:50 pm »
I think we are jumping the gun a bit with Keita. He may need half, or even a full season to acclimatise to the rigours of the Premier League. Sure, he may well hit the ground running ( I really hope he does) but he needs time to adapt to Klopps training methods and style of play.

I think part of the reason that we haven’t really missed Phil as much as I thought we would, is because the system is the reason we are where we are. Sure we have some excellent players but when we rotated pre Christmas, we still won games because players slotted in and we didn’t lose that much.

The way Gini played against City was amazing, but he hasn’t played that much since. Against some teams he’ll be first picked as his style of play will suit. The fact that our midfield 3 is quite interchangeable makes it hard for opposition teams to play against us. Once Lallana is fit again, he adds another dimension. To think we have basically played the whole season without him (he was vital last season) and Phil since the New Year, to me is amazing. I honestly didn’t think our midfield had enough to dominate teams. But we have done it regularly. Last season we were overun many times, but with basically the same players we have played some scintillating football. And when you consider that Henderson has missed a lot of the season too, it adds to it. It has to be the system.

For all Can’s faults, when he plays well he is a beast. Yes he can be lazy and gives the ball away a little (like for West Ham’s goal), but when he went off against City, the midfield fell to pieces.

So I agree with most in the fact we need a N’Gante type No.6. A destroyer who can also pass well.

Probably the brightest spot though is the defense. VVD has made a massive difference and Robertson has been a revelation. 8 million quid? Wow, we’ve robbed Hull. It’s funny how so many say don’t buy players from the bottom teams. But these players can be bargains. I love the way that Klopp has bought him into the team. He played Moreno (who did well bar the Sevilla hiccup) while Andy became accustomed to the system. When Moreno was injured, Andy stepped in seamlessly. TAA will in my opinion still end up a midfielder. The way he is coming through gradually is a credit to the coaching staff. Evra must be having nightmares about him after the weekend. He ran circles around him. His crossing is improving all the time as is his game awareness. To think that Clyne is coming back to fitness and both fullback positions are well and truly covered for many years to come.

It would also be fair to say that I don’t think we’ll see Sturridge in a LFC shirt again. Klopp just must have run out of patience. Ings is a hard grafter but is he the required quality? I would like to think he’ll be given a full season when fit. Solanke is still a bit raw but there is a player there. Bobby is world class so no problem there, as are Mane and Salah. Woodburn is coming through so maybe just one more attacking player to come in.

I don’t think Klopp will buy a goalkeeper unless he is world class. Karius is improving and Mignolet will want out. Ward is a decent back up if we don’t bring anyone in so I think we are set there. I haven’t seen enough of Allisson to comment on him so I’ll leave that to others.

Next season “should” see a genuine title challenge. Injuries are always the unknown in the equation though. If Spurs lost Kane, Chelsea lost Hazard, City lost deBruyne etc. things would change. City have unlimited funds and can buy whoever they want and United and Chelsea are in a similar position. City are playing incredible football, but we proved they can be beaten. Our problem as we all know, is beating the lesser park the bus sides. It appears we are getting better at that though. I honestly think Klopp and his staff are learning all the time. The rotation they used before Christmas was a testement to this. Last season we self destructed in the New Year, this season we have been very good after New Year. Yes there were a couple of hiccups, but our form has generally been very good.

Psychologically, finishing second this season could be huge. It will give the players that bit more belief. So, yes, I think we are much closer.

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Offline northern Monkey

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #187 on: February 27, 2018, 08:13:52 am »
I really dont think we need a destroyer at 6.

Stylistically we need a controller with defensive awareness.

If I could cherry pick a deep lying midfielder from past sides to slot in in, it's Alonso not Masch.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #188 on: February 27, 2018, 08:24:37 am »

If I could cherry pick a deep lying midfielder from past sides to slot in in, it's Alonso not Masch.

Either would be fine with me. Mascherano was given a destroyer role by Rafa, but he was able to do much more than just tackle. If we could get someone like either of them, I reckon we'd be a lot better. We're talking players who were top class and a type of player I believe we're missing.

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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #189 on: February 27, 2018, 08:48:13 am »
I really dont think we need a destroyer at 6.

Stylistically we need a controller with defensive awareness.

If I could cherry pick a deep lying midfielder from past sides to slot in in, it's Alonso not Masch.
Alonso is probably too slow to be at his best in a Klopp team, but I agree in general. If the reports about Jorginho are true, then it appears Klopp would agree. A superb passer, who is quicker than Alonso and very competent defensively. An ideal player as a number 6 in my opinion, so I sure hope he’s our main target for that role.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #190 on: February 27, 2018, 08:52:19 am »
Klopp's never, as far as I know, played a midfield where the deepest mid, or one of the two deepest mids, isn't competitive in the air as well as being fit and with decent passing. Sure he played Stewart there once or twice, but only when rotating to a 2nd 11. In our current squad he's never tried TAA there, never played Gini there, never played Allen there while we had him, never given Lallana a few minutes there as per Yorky's suggestion of him as a playmaker.

I just don't see it. To be fair, Jorhginho isn't short and may well be decent in the air - I've not seen him play - or perhaps because VVD is so damn good Klopp feels he can sacrifice elsewhere, but still, I'd be massively surprised if we ended up with either a Kante or an Alonso type there. It just doesn't seem to fit what he's always done, and I don't see why he would change it either, given that we've been defending set-pieces pretty damn well for a while now, and actually looked more solid in midfield than we have. Why change that template? What is there to be gained? A fractional increase in our ability to break down teams that, actually, we're breaking down brilliantly as it is, and that without Coutinho, and without what Keita will add in terms of pressing, work in tight spaces and dribbling?

It's kind of similar with the calls for TAA to play in midfield. Why? As an 8 he wouldn't be able to use his crossing, and his creative skills could reach the level of someone like, say, Oxlade...so we'd put him there, and maybe gain a good midfielder but not one who's attributes would seem to stand out as exceptional for a midfielder either as an 8 or as a 6, while if we moved him from RB we'd find ourselves wishing for a RB with exactly TAA's attributes, who would cost us huge money to bring in. TAA is very rare as a proper RB who is also very effective when he does cut inside. As a shortish midfielder with decent stamina and a good to very good all round game who lacks height he's not rare at all. Lots of players fit that profile, indeed we already have several.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 08:40:20 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #191 on: February 27, 2018, 09:17:11 am »
Is Henderson that tall or good in the air? According to wiki he is 2cm taller than Jorginho. I don’t think Klopp prefers him as our number 6 because of those qualities, rather his stamina, energy, pressing and ability on the ball (not the best, but better than most other more defensive midfielders, certainly in this league).

I can’t say if Jorginho is better than Henderson when it comes to defensive qualities, and I don’t think he’s as quick, but his stats are great, he seems to read the game very well and his vision is outstanding. If he’s as good defensively as his stats make him out to be, I think Klopp would gladly sacrifice 2cm in order to gain creativity, and when needed, calmness and control in his midfield. But we’ll see, find it very interesting to see how we go forward from here. It’s not that easy to improve this team.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #192 on: February 27, 2018, 10:45:43 am »

I can’t say if Jorginho is better than Henderson when it comes to defensive qualities, and I don’t think he’s as quick, but his stats are great, he seems to read the game very well and his vision is outstanding. If he’s as good defensively as his stats make him out to be, I think Klopp would gladly sacrifice 2cm in order to gain creativity, and when needed, calmness and control in his midfield. But we’ll see, find it very interesting to see how we go forward from here. It’s not that easy to improve this team.

Below radars from last season are quite interesting. Metrics aren't *exactly* the same in each one, but similar enough to draw parallels. On first glance, they profile like the same 'type'. Jorginho looks better defensively I'd say - slightly less tackles, but way more interceptions. Does he read the game better perhaps? Maybe contributes a bit more in the build-up too. Far fewer long balls than Henderson, although so much of that can come down to what the manager wants.





You can see the logic in having Jorginho and Henderson as the two options for the base of midfield though, with Keita and Wijnaldum as the runners and then Ox and Lallana as the third man in midfield.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #193 on: February 27, 2018, 10:55:03 am »
What position is a ‘Coutinho replacement’? It was my understanding that Coutinho was not a Klopp type player but he made room for him as he is so good. If we look at the roles Coutinho was asked to play he was left of the front 3 originally but this season quite often played in the midfield 3. I’d be surprised if we went for another centre mid considering we’re already getting Keita and it looks like we want a number 6 so that would imply that our ‘Coutinho replacement’ is a wide forward?

I hope so!

Or just a forward that is able to cover any one of the terrific three we have at the moment. Would be ideal along with a number 6, keita and a keeper.

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Offline northern Monkey

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #194 on: February 27, 2018, 11:05:12 am »
Either would be fine with me. Mascherano was given a destroyer role by Rafa, but he was able to do much more than just tackle. If we could get someone like either of them, I reckon we'd be a lot better. We're talking players who were top class and a type of player I believe we're missing.

Absolutely agree but  my point is I'd prefer someone that is excellent at controling tempo and passing and is just decent defensively than have the opposite.

I think VVD takes away some of the need to be too drawer in the air though it's obviously a help if it can be found alongside the other attributes sought. 

Also pace... Pace kills but it can be found in the head as well as the legs.  Again nice to have both but Alonso was always far enough of the play in his head that the pace wasn't so much an issue, especially if you think that whoever comes in at 8 has Keita buzzing around just ahead of him too.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #195 on: February 27, 2018, 08:42:28 pm »
That's a useful visualisation, thanks for that.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #196 on: February 27, 2018, 08:59:31 pm »
I'm curious, have such charts been produced for the different leagues, say, if you combine the results for all midfielders that have played in all games for a season? I think that may shed light on some differences between the PL and Italy, Spain, Germany, France, etc. It seems counter-intuitively to me that stats are 1-to-1 comparable if you cross the league boundary. For example, more technical leagues would facilitate more passes, dribbles, dispossessions, whereas more direct leagues would have emphasis on tackles, long balls, throuballs.

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Offline Gutzon Borglum

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #197 on: February 28, 2018, 02:16:21 am »
What stands out for Jorginho vs. Henderson other than his big quality with interceptions (which suggests he reads the game and blocks passing channels very well, which is key to maximize the effectiveness of our press), is his throughball and buildup xG numbers.. And his youtube scouting vids back that up, his passing is direct and penetrative, which again massively compliments the players that will be in front of him and our general style of fast transition attacking.

So whilst Hendo and Can have better physical attributes, Jorginho seems to have better tactical discipline which I think at least compensates for his relative physical deficiencies (and it isnt like Hendo is going anywhere soon so we will at least have that option of it becomes necessary when he is fit), what he adds and what makes potentially signing him so exciting is his technical ability. Possessing a guy like him at #6 who can link play and even create to such high standards is a huge weapon, with pacey dribblers like Keita, Ox, Manè, TAA and likely whomever is signed to replace Coutinho for him to feed in front of him, we will be a nightmare to retain a shape against.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #198 on: February 28, 2018, 07:49:22 am »
I don’t think we should underestimate the impact a confident passer of the ball could do for us defensively either. When we’re under pressure, especially against better sides, having someone in the middle of the park who can take the sting out of the game is very useful.

Again, Alonso was excellent at this. With his movement he offered an outball to less calm and technical players all the time and - with a phrase borrowed from Yorkykopite - never passed on a problem. Instead he gave the next player more time and space on the ball than he himself just had.

It seems to me that Jorghino is similar in this regard. He’s very comfortable receiving the ball under pressure but can easily move it on with one touch. And given a bit of space, he turns into ’traffic’ and sets his team on their way forward. I don’t think Henderson nor Can are capable of this to nearly the same extent, but having not seen Jorginho that much, I may be overrating him here. Still the point stands - a Alonso/Busquets/Jorginho type could very likely improve our defensive record as well, thanks to their calmness under pressure and ability to make up their minds faster than other midfielders who play deep.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #199 on: February 28, 2018, 07:57:57 am »
I really dont think we need a destroyer at 6.

Stylistically we need a controller with defensive awareness.

If I could cherry pick a deep lying midfielder from past sides to slot in in, it's Alonso not Masch.

Disagree. Our deep lying playmaker is VVD. We need a mash, if he can do other thing like Jorginho, break the bank.

Alonso wouldn’t work in this team the way we press imo.
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