Author Topic: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City  (Read 17516 times)

Offline WillyWonka

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2012, 05:01:52 pm »
Played well yesterday but there is a still a few problems. While Shelvey was good he made a very foolish pass which led to Tevez hitting the bar. Here's a video clip of it:

https://vimeo.com/48299343


Possession is obviously a huge element of Rodgers stystem and keep possession. Very poor decision on his part to just lob the ball across the field like that. Johnson an sterling are both ahead of him so when that pass isn't made it's very likely city can counter. Glen was a bit slow getting back as well. Last Gerrard poorly gave away possession last week for the peno at West Brom and Gerrard also did it again yesterday for the first goal. It's why a player like Allen is so important to the system, he rarely gives the ball away and he'll rarely attempt a high risk cross field pass.


Another worry yesterday was Gerrard and his lazyness. A good few times he just walked back and made little to no effort to run or jog. Watching Allen off the ball he seems to be always moving and rarely stops or walks when we don't have possession. Here's a clip

https://vimeo.com/48299000


Once Gerrard goes to Toure he simply stops once Toure passes to De Jong and lets Toure off into a huge amount of space. Allen had to drift over to Tevez who came short. It was a terrible pass from De Jong thankfully but he has a easy pass to Yaya or Tevez in that spot. I really thought that was criminal from Gerrard and he's done it a lot this season already.

Offline E2K

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2012, 05:08:34 pm »
I'm not expecting wonders, but I feel like we have a team that can play decent football, set up to win, set up to make our opposition feel the pressure.

Same here. Two points lost on the face of it, but fuck me, what a shot of belief I got from that performance. And the great thing is, the football we played yesterday is the kind that can be sustained. It doesn’t rely so much on luck or playing the percentages, it’s proactive rather than reactive, it's about making our own luck. And while this team is still embryonic, I have to say, I’m relishing the prospect of watching it develop. We can still expect a tough season ahead, I doubt any of us are under any illusions on that score. I would still say that Arsenal have the inside track on fourth, for example. Yesterday, however, gave us a tantalising glimpse of where Brendan Rodgers is trying to lead this team and (hopefully) where Liverpool could end up a couple of seasons down the line with the right additions to the squad and the continued fusion of the quality players already at the club with the manager’s vision. And it’s exciting. On a purely footballing level (i.e. forgetting about FSG and off-the-field issues for just a moment), it’s exciting, isn’t it? And if you disagree, fair enough, but I strongly advise you to check for a pulse if that’s the case.

I’ve seen people already making some comparisons with Rafa’s first season in charge. There are definitely parallels. Just like 2004/05, there will be bad days at the office. We’ve already seen one against West Brom, there will almost certainly be others. This squad, like the one we had in August 2004, has a lot of rough edges (although I would argue that it’s probably better than the one Rafa inherited). It’s painfully thin in places. There are some players in it who clearly have no future at Anfield. There are a lot of youngsters who will make mistakes, especially since they’ll be playing alongside other inexperienced players at times. Everyone is learning a new footballing philosophy. It will take time, especially since we are unable to go out and buy big-money, proven, readymade components to fit that philosophy like City can. And as well as the team played yesterday, possession was nonetheless rashly squandered on occasions, there were two bad defensive lapses which led to goals, and yes, Liverpool didn’t exactly create a ton of chances from open play (although, in fairness, they were playing against a very good team).

And yet there’s another, more positive feeling that I got watching yesterday’s game which also reminded me of 2004. Call it excitement, call it hope, call it optimism, but I just can’t shake it. Juan mentioned the early-season home games against West Brom and Norwich from 2004/05 as ones which gave you a sense of what was to come. Me, I recall our very first home league game under Rafa, also against Manchester City around this time of the season. Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia were in the stands for that game, as I recall, and after some of the turgid stuff served up during Gerard Houllier’s last couple of seasons in charge, Liverpool were a revelation that day, ending the game with 64% of the possession and, perhaps more noteworthy, coming from behind at half-time to win for the first time in a number of years (they repeated the feat a few weeks later too, going two goals down at Fulham before recovering in the second-half to win 4-2. By the end of the season, AC Milan were wondering what the fuck hit them during eight second-half minutes in Istanbul…) City were just another mid-table team back then and yesterday’s performance was almost certainly better, but the feeling of building towards something was the same. There was something in the way Liverpool played in that game which was different, and it was exciting.

It was similar yesterday. It wasn’t just in the need to play from the back, something which saw Pepe Reina hesitate time and time again on his kick outs while he looked for someone in a red shirt to pass short to. It was in the fearlessness on show all over the pitch – 17 year-old Raheem Sterling running at people, taking cross-field passes down with a perfect first-touch, then crossing with his left or right, Allen, Shelvey, Johnson and others calling for possession even when surrounded by two or three opposition players and playing their way out of trouble with calm, assured authority, the patience and intelligence in the passing, the movement, the willingness and the guts to try something that might work. As Liverpool supporters we’ve seen all of these things before, of course, but there was a sustained aspect to these qualities yesterday that it’s difficult not to be excited by. That City, champions last season having scored 93 goals, created very little aside from Tevez’s chance in the first-half and a half-chance for Dzeko near the end and required two gifts to score at all, was the net result of that. Liverpool, despite what the possession stats say, bossed the game. And while it may be true to say that Liverpool teams generally do ok against the top sides and that the real necessity is to regularly beat the league’s lesser teams, this really does feel like a brand of football that will serve us well no matter who we might be facing.

Going back to 2004 again – it took that team 5 years (and a long list of arrivals and departures) to challenge for a Premier League title. It may take this one as long, if it ever happens at all (that’s not pessimism, by the way, it’s realism). There’s a nucleus of talented players at the club, so we’re not exactly building from scratch, and yet Brendan Rodgers is facing many of the same difficulties that Rafa did. He may even be facing more when you consider that City and Tottenham didn’t have the kind of stature back then that they do now. He’ll have to build without the money that some of his rivals have. Even if he leads his team into the Champions League immediately and stays there over a period of years (harder now than ever before), his club won’t have the ability to drop £20m+ on the likes of Mata, Oscar and Luiz, £30m+ on Hazard and £50m on Torres in the space of 18 months. He’ll never have a bench that includes David Silva and Eden Dzeko either. Like Rafa, he will have to build steadily, piece-by-piece. He’ll have to be smart, and while they may not have the profile of an Eden Hazard, the signings of Joe Allen and Fabio Borini look to be just that – smart.  Players he trusts, players he knows will fit into his vision of the game, players who can fit into a team that, we hope, can become considerably more than the sum of its individual parts, just like Alonso and Garcia were back in 2004.

There are definitely parallels there, not alone between Allen and Alonso (and no, I’m not saying Allen is quite as good as that yet) but also between Borini and Garcia. Both duos were the main signings made by the new manager upon his arrival and, adjusted for inflation, the respective fees probably work out at more or less the same. And while the more expensive arrival of the two (Alonso/Allen) will hopefully go on to become Liverpool’s midfield general for years to come, creativity and goals are expected to come from the other (Garcia/Borini). Already I’m seeing signs that this could happen. I love Borini’s movement and intelligence and my gut is telling me that when he scores a couple of goals to get him going, he won’t stop. His first-half run yesterday, which ended with him missing the target by inches, was fantastic. He made some brilliant runs against Hearts on Thursday as well. He may never claim the place in Liverpool hearts that Garcia has (he would need to score a hat-trick, then a quarter-final winner, a semi-final winner and go on pick up a medal in the final of the Champions League to do that), but hopefully his contribution on the field can be longer-lasting and more consistent than the little Spaniard. His passion is also very welcome.

These two are looking like very shrewd signings, and that’s exactly what Brendan Rodgers needs to do because he clearly won’t be able to spend his way to success. Two players who fit his vision, his system, added to a squad containing quite a few of the same ilk. Hopefully Assaidi will prove similar. All of a sudden, I’m back to where I was in 2004, excited about where we’re heading and looking forward to seeing how the manager goes about implementing his vision over the long term. There will more than likely be plenty more setbacks and doubts expressed while he’s getting there, but we’ve made a start. Over the manager’s first two league games in charge, we’ve seen chances squandered, two penalties conceded, a suicidal back pass and a red card, but you’ve got to crawl before you can walk. Yesterday we even broke into a jog. There may be no Champions League victory at the end of this season like there was at the end of Rafa’s first, there may not even be a Europa League win, but there are some compelling reasons to be optimistic for this season and beyond. This journey just got interesting.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2012, 05:48:55 pm »
I thought we needed to gradually bring Sterling into the side, I was wrong he has the arrogance of youth and it totally fearless, so he would be in for me instead of Downing all the time! In fact look at the ave age in yesterday's team we have some future to salivate about.
 I wanted Allen since I watched him boss us last season, he is tidy effective and better defensively that some thought in here! Coates on that showing should have at least given him a chance of third choice.
 For the Skrtel goal I think it was Borini who did a good job blocking the keeper from coming out, second sublime free kick, their first not so much a defensive cock up as total bad luck a flick here having to control a awkward ball all contributed to it, and their second was a gift but this high line and using the keeper is part of the system so mistakes will happen as we get the system in place.
 That was the best game I have seen from Jonjo does playing alongside Allen suit his game?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 05:51:47 pm by geoffstrong »
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2012, 05:52:19 pm »
Fascinating analyses above. Thanks. I find it interesting that everyone seems to have found Jonjo's performance not merely better, much better than that vs Hearts but actually very good.

His movement ('showing for the pass') was not very good, in my estimation. On too many occasions, he either stayed stationary or moved too slowly and to a sub-optimal position. He was beaten to an attempted short outlet pass out of defense under pressure by an opponent by being too slow to react and not properly shielding his opponent.

Am I just completely wrong in this analysis?
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2012, 05:53:09 pm »
I thought we needed to gradually bring Sterling into the side, I was wrong he has the arrogance of youth and it totally fearless, so he would be in for me instead of Downing all the time! In fact look at the ave age in yesterday's team we have some future to salivate about.
 I wanted Allen since I watched him boss us last season, he is tidy effective and better defensively that some thought in here! Coates on that showing should have at least given him a chance of third choice.
 For the Skrtel goal I think it was Borini who did a good job blocking the keeper from coming out, second sublime free kick, their first not so much a defensive cock up as total bad luck a flick here having to control a awkward ball all contributed to it, and their second was a gift but this high line and using the keeper is part of the system so mistakes will happen as we get the system in place.
 That was the best game I have seen from Jonjo does playing alongside Allen suit his game?

Coates also did some excellent blocking work for Skrtel's goal.
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Offline sgt bilbo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2012, 06:05:39 pm »
We played well yesterday and the manager showed he has the balls needed for the job with his line-up, lucas going off wasnt great, jon jo ended up having a good game and a bad back pass by big martin who scored a screamer like only big centre halves can didnt take away from the fact we played really well. Hope this continues, think we are light up front tho.

Offline WillyWonka

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2012, 06:10:30 pm »
Fascinating analyses above. Thanks. I find it interesting that everyone seems to have found Jonjo's performance not merely better, much better than that vs Hearts but actually very good.

His movement ('showing for the pass') was not very good, in my estimation. On too many occasions, he either stayed stationary or moved too slowly and to a sub-optimal position. He was beaten to an attempted short outlet pass out of defense under pressure by an opponent by being too slow to react and not properly shielding his opponent.

Am I just completely wrong in this analysis?


I felt Shelvey was poor for the second goal. His movement was terrible and he should have ran into the space to give Skrtel the option to pass to him.

Offline Alf

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2012, 06:26:54 pm »
Was impressed with Coates & Allen yesterday. Luis Suarez free kick was sublime. Individual mistakes cost us but an encouraging display.

Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2012, 06:32:52 pm »
I felt Shelvey was poor for the second goal. His movement was terrible and he should have ran into the space to give Skrtel the option to pass to him.

Without mentioning Shelvey or absolving Skrtel for not looking up this does raise a point about the passing game. I watched two games this weekend, LFC and Swansea and one of the things I noticed about the Swansea game (which reminded me of the old LFC) was the willingness and ability of their players to find space.

A passing game is made up of two parts, one the man with the ball and two the options others give him, this to the degree that they also anticipate it will happen.

Very often we blame players who get caught in possesion or give the ball away but we fail to criticise team mates who fail to give them options. It's about hard work and that's why Joe Allen is so important as he brings that ethic to the team. Any players that fail to demonstrate this will be gone from our squad, that includes players I like who fail to realise the importance of this to the way the team will play. It comes authomitically to Barca and I think it also does to Swansea now given they've lost manager and key players and still continue their game.


Oh, and one more thing. The player who made more long ball attempts than any other in the PL last year, Ashley Williams of Swansea (464), so we don't always have to play the short bal apparently.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 06:36:56 pm by Black Bull Nova »
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2012, 06:37:04 pm »
Watched it back as its difficult to form a clear judgment from one viewing, especially from my new cramped-up seat in the Kemlyn.

Thought, bar the first 10, we were much better than them in almost all departments. The one thing they were better than us at yesterday was capitalising on mistakes. We gifted them a chance and a half, Kelly was unlucky as it was between leg and chest height and bounced off his thigh. They scored two, both gifted. If Shelvey moves for Skrtel, there's a much better pass than the blind one he played in the direction of Reina. By Christmas, that won't happen. I'd be surprised if Skrtel ever does that again for us.

There were odd couple of minutes during the game where they couldn't get te ball, and it was brilliant to see. I thought we were rather too cavalier when one up, and then when 2-1 up, but it's a new system. It'll take time to bed in, but it's looking promising.

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Offline MartinSkrtelsBasement

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2012, 06:46:52 pm »
Think we will be brilliant at home this season. Not only will the football be doing most of the talking but the home fans passion will accumulate with the support which clearly has an affect on the players. We saw Borini attempting to rile the masses as well as Jonjo playing through the pain barrier and tweeting about the home crowd last night. I think we will continue to struggle away, as it will be more difficult to assert our style of play. We are bound to improve though.

Back to the game, it was wonderful how we looked to have had some form of authority in the midfield area for the first time in how long...? The usually reliable Skrtel's mistake was head-in-hands stuff but again, it is a one off and something that is bound to be improved on. If we can get Lucas back up and running then I can see the Allen-Lucas partnership blossoming into something rather sublime. I said to my dad that when Allen was signed, he wasn't going to be another Hendo who needs time, because the lad is mature beyond his years (and I appear to be correct if you don't mind me saying!). Also an honourable mention for Jonjo Shelvey, who although was a tad behind the pace at Hearts, was helped along by Allen and blossomed towards the end. Recycled possession well and helped boss that Anfield midfield.

What can you say about Sterling? He has well and truly done his talking on the pitch with his performance mid-week vs Hearts, and now against the Champions no less. Players like Sterling, young tricky/pacey wide men, are stereotypically lacking in game intelligence, especially at such a young age. Not Raheem though, who certainly has a brain on him. Knows when to stay calm and lay it off, and his movement is for me his best attribute. Intelligent, quick, and technically gifted as proven by his ball control, touch and passing. The lad is likely go through some tough times as he adjusts, gets double marked and his form fluctuates but it's hard to see him reaching anything under top four quality. Potentially world-class. At last, we some to have some quality out wide! I know it doesn't go down particularly well on here, but hats of to Rafa/Rodolfo/Segura because Shelvey and Sterling have looked class from day one at this club, they look good value for money at the moment too.

Kelly looks good but was definitely at fault for the first goal. Think he can do a good job at right-back but as many have mentioned, he could well fill Carragher's boots in the next couple of years. I like the idea as 'Jamie Carragher: Student of the Game', and wouldn't let his sometimes limited playing style mask his obvious love of the beautiful side of the game.

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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2012, 06:49:47 pm »
We saw Borini attempting to rile rouse the masses as well

I know it's pedantic but you don't want people to think he's Joey Barton
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2012, 06:51:59 pm »
"Illuminating" is a great way to describe yesterday's match. Pity about that diabolical backpass from Skrtel but I think we ought to look on the bright side and say now is the time to make these mistakes. (Reina's near-own-goal shocker could've been equally devastating). Going forward into the season I think we will improve, becoming better in defence and scoring lots of goals. Borini and Suarez are a great partnership. But it is a long season and I hope Mr. Rodgers will keep Andy and give him lots of minutes in the cup competitions and Europe. All of the top 4 sides in the Premier League have strength in depth and can squad rotate, swapping their best players for equally high quality players coming off the bench in the event of injuries, tiredness, fixture congestion, and so forth. So why not us? Andy will have to show some patience and keep believing in himself. There is room and time for everybody. It's too early in the day for us to be asking if there is a place for Andy Carroll. Of course there is. All in good time.

I'm glad Brendan Rodgers didn't get the perfect start to the season that he was probably hoping for. Over the past six years we've had lots of psychological cracks in our squad which needed to be  addressed, particularly in defence, and an over-dependence on Stevie G. Yesterday's match made me realise that the manager is not only aware of these cracks, he is confronting and addressing them in a very progressive way... That was an almighty free-kick from Suarez. Top drawer. How many times have we seen Stevie stepping up for every free kick after free kick, predictably? And a lot of them went way over the bar because, positionally, it wasn't right for him. Then that lay-on from Stevie to  Jonjo (which he almost scored) looked like a well-rehearsed set piece even though it was in open play. Usually it would be Stevie taking it upon himself to strike the ball, and it would end up in the stands but not go anywhere near the goal. That's what over-reliance on one guy does to a team.

Much respect to Carra. The time has come to pass the baton to younger players; but, like I said before, we're in a lot of competitions so the team still needs him. I hope that as fans we will continue to show him respect.   

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2012, 06:52:05 pm »
Without mentioning Shelvey or absolving Skrtel .....

There's no need. Shelvey made himself available for a pass. Joe Allen got across his man too in preparation for a pass off Shelvey. Skrtel cocked up monumentally. It was nice of Rodgers to try and seek a collective error (lack of options for Skrtel etc) but it was a really poor and tentative bit of footy that got the centre-back into trouble. Unfortunately Skrtel is prone to this. He's simply not as comfortable on the ball as the other defenders.
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Offline lorenzo23

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2012, 07:02:47 pm »
There's no need. Shelvey made himself available for a pass. Joe Allen got across his man too in preparation for a pass off Shelvey. Skrtel cocked up monumentally. It was nice of Rodgers to try and seek a collective error (lack of options for Skrtel etc) but it was a really poor and tentative bit of footy that got the centre-back into trouble. Unfortunately Skrtel is prone to this. He's simply not as comfortable on the ball as the other defenders.
Mate if you watch back your noticed one of CM always should drop back into space between the two CB to offer option neither Allen or Jonjo offered this Rodgers is rite is saying Skrtel had little options.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2012, 07:14:54 pm »
Mate if you watch back your noticed one of CM always should drop back into space between the two CB to offer option neither Allen or Jonjo offered this Rodgers is rite is saying Skrtel had little options.

But in this case it would have been a futile thing to do since Tevez was already occupying that space. And why not? Man City needed a goal with 10 minutes to go. Their main striker was no longer under instructions to get goal-side of the ball. Instead Shelvey moved across into the space Tevez would normally have been in. And the lad found sufficient space in which to receive a pass. He was also on the move, increasing his chances of being seen by Skrtel. But Skrtel decided against it. He took the 'easier' option and turned on to his right foot (very slowly) and played it back......

He knew himself there was no one else to blame. He might also have known he had better options. If he didn't then Rodgers will be pointing them out on Tuesday morning. 
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2012, 07:17:43 pm »
There's no need. Shelvey made himself available for a pass. Joe Allen got across his man too in preparation for a pass off Shelvey. Skrtel cocked up monumentally. It was nice of Rodgers to try and seek a collective error (lack of options for Skrtel etc) but it was a really poor and tentative bit of footy that got the centre-back into trouble. Unfortunately Skrtel is prone to this. He's simply not as comfortable on the ball as the other defenders.


Joe Allen also made a mistake on the goal. Allen should never be pushing up field there. He has to drop back and basically play as a central defender in Rodgers system. In fairnss to Allen he hasn't played the DM many times before so it's not natural to him.





That's a pciture just before Skrtel turns, Shelvey has to move into the space there and give him the option. He was on earlier but Skrtel was a bit slow but that doesn't mean shelvey should just stop. Allen needs to drop far deeper and should be where the two XX's are just in front of Tevez. Also Reina really should push up to the edge of his box and anticipate Skrtel turning back because that's what he's meant to do in that situation. The only thin Skrtel did wrong was not looking up. 

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2012, 07:21:25 pm »
its alright looking at the picture but your wisdom comes from hindsight, he was perfectly placed to receive the second pass from Jonjo after Martin delivered the first one in space to him, if only he knew Martin would screw up his back pass hey?
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2012, 07:24:00 pm »

That's a pciture just before Skrtel turns, Shelvey has to move into the space there and give him the option. He was on earlier but Skrtel was a bit slow but that doesn't mean shelvey should just stop. Allen needs to drop far deeper and should be where the two XX's are just in front of Tevez. Also Reina really should push up to the edge of his box and anticipate Skrtel turning back because that's what he's meant to do in that situation. The only thin Skrtel did wrong was not looking up. 

Thanks for the pic. It supports the point I was making. I'm pretty sure the damage is already done. It's taken just at the point in which Skrtel is about to turn. That's to say just after he'd decelerated and ended up on top of a ball that is no longer moving forward.  Prior to that he had an angle in which to find Shelvey who'd moved into lots of space. Joe Allen, in turn, had let Tevez go and moved into a vacant area of the pitch to support Shelvey. It was going beautifully. But Martin failed to make the pass and boxed himself in.

EDIT: Geoff has already said it.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2012, 07:28:39 pm »
its alright looking at the picture but your wisdom comes from hindsight, he was perfectly placed to receive the second pass from Jonjo after Martin delivered the first one in space to him, if only he knew Martin would screw up his back pass hey?



But that's not what he's meant to do as DM. His role is not to push on to receive the second pass, it's to act as a central defender. Skrtel, Shelvey, Allen and Reina all made mistake in that goal. Skrtel was the most obvious though but that doesn't mean we should ignore everyone elses mistake. Even if Skrtel didn't screw up the back pass he's still under huge pressure to get a pass off and the best we can for for is him hoofing it out of touch. Even if Skrtel doesn't turn around an plays it ahead to Sterling in that picture and the City defender gets in front of him then it's a one-touch pass and Tevez is through on goal in acres of space because allen pushed on was he wasn't meant to.


Yorky - it wasn't going beautiful. Look at how much space Tevez has, hardly a thing of beauty. Also once skrtel goes to get boxed in Shelvey shouldn't just stop running and watch, he has to move and keep offering him that option.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 07:30:52 pm by WillyWonka »

Offline lorenzo23

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2012, 07:49:44 pm »
How i see it is how rodgers see it, players should be moving all time making space for them self or the system will break down as  you can see from pictures X marks the spots Jonjo and Allen should been in, what i will say though its learning curve Skrtel normally will be playing on right side Lucas will be in Allen slot Jonjo will be in Gerrard Slot.

Perfect example of this is Hearts game watch Spearing then watch Allen, How Allen played DM vs Hearts dropping in between two CB at all times where the x is where Allen should of been, we live we learn we move on.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 07:51:30 pm by lorenzo23 »
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Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2012, 07:57:04 pm »
Fascinating analyses above. Thanks. I find it interesting that everyone seems to have found Jonjo's performance not merely better, much better than that vs Hearts but actually very good.

His movement ('showing for the pass') was not very good, in my estimation. On too many occasions, he either stayed stationary or moved too slowly and to a sub-optimal position. He was beaten to an attempted short outlet pass out of defense under pressure by an opponent by being too slow to react and not properly shielding his opponent.

Am I just completely wrong in this analysis?

Probably not - but if you want to you can pick holes in every players performance.  Even Allen misplaced a few passes.  Shelvey's performance was much much better than his Hearts showing.  He retained the ball much better - a statistic that is supported by Imnofreak's earlier post - info from Four Four Two's stats zone:

Reina - 14/25 - 56%

Johnson - 44/54 - 81%

Coates - 24/29 - 83%

Skrtel - 26/31 - 84%

Kelly - 30/38 - 79%

Gerrard - 51/65 - 78%

Allen - 43/46 - 93%

Sterling - 24/30 - 80%

Shelvey - 44/50 - 88%

Suarez - 35/45 - 78%

Borini - 25/29 - 86%

Enrique - 11/15 - 73%

Carroll - 1/4 - 25%

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2012, 07:58:19 pm »
Yorky - it wasn't going beautiful. Look at how much space Tevez has, hardly a thing of beauty. Also once skrtel goes to get boxed in Shelvey shouldn't just stop running and watch, he has to move and keep offering him that option.

I disagree mate. Tevez has space. But we have the ball! Let the fucker have space. It means we do too. Even more. And, again, we have the ball!

As for Shelvey he did his bit. Once Skrtel failed to pass to him and started to decelerate there was little else he could do, except start to move into the space that Skrtel was already in. And you don't want that. By the time Skrtel stopped Shelvey was a 'dead' player and, accordingly, came to a halt himself. At that point Skrtel, having already spurned a good pass, now had the option of a bad one - the hoof into the channel. He spurned this too. The rest is history.

I'm sure this will be talked about at Melwood. I very much doubt it will happen again. (Unless Jamie plays)
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2012, 08:13:52 pm »
All this whose fault is it is pointless.

Shelvey didn't move into the space so the pass wasn't on.  Allen didn't drop back so there wasn't really an option there either.  We had run ourselves into the ground for 80 minutes so is it not asking too much to consider that we might have been fucked at that stage?  Even Barcelona won't have 4 or 5 options on 100% of the time so sometimes it will be inevitable that a mistake will happen or we'll simply have to hoof it.

The fact of the matter is that Martin Skrtel has possession of the ball.  If no pass to another outfield player is on, he either passes back to Pepe or puts a foot through it.  Regardless of wherever other players are on the field he has to deal with it.  In hindsight the safer option would have been to aim for a restricted view seat at the Anny Road end of the Main Stand.  But surely if you are going to make a back pass to the keeper you check it is safe to do so?

We'll learn as much from that goal (and the first one) than we will from the game itself.  Think there is too much over analysis going on.  Skrtel fucked up but he will learn and maybe we will learn to help reduce the frequency of that situation happening again.  It's not a blame game though - we'll learn as a team

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2012, 08:24:52 pm »
I disagree mate. Tevez has space. But we have the ball! Let the fucker have space. It means we do too. Even more. And, again, we have the ball!

As for Shelvey he did his bit. Once Skrtel failed to pass to him and started to decelerate there was little else he could do, except start to move into the space that Skrtel was already in. And you don't want that. By the time Skrtel stopped Shelvey was a 'dead' player and, accordingly, came to a halt himself. At that point Skrtel, having already spurned a good pass, now had the option of a bad one - the hoof into the channel. He spurned this too. The rest is history.

I'm sure this will be talked about at Melwood. I very much doubt it will happen again. (Unless Jamie plays)


Even if you have the ball I don't think we should ever have a 50yard gap between our central defenders with 10 minutes to go against a team like City, it's far to high risk. One mis-placed pass from Skrtel or Shelvey and it'll cost us a goal. For record I don't think the goal was anyones fault, I do think that mistakes were made by various players in the lead up to the goal though. However I expect the players to make pleny more mistakes in the future. It will take a while for them to learn the system so that it's second nature to everyone one. In saying I do enjoying watching all the goals we conceded to see where it went wrong so I can see in future games to see if we do it differently and have learnt.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2012, 08:29:55 pm »

Even if you have the ball I don't think we should ever have a 50yard gap between our central defenders with 10 minutes to go against a team like City, it's far to high risk. One mis-placed pass from Skrtel or Shelvey and it'll cost us a goal. For record I don't think the goal was anyones fault, I do think that mistakes were made by various players in the lead up to the goal though. However I expect the players to make pleny more mistakes in the future. It will take a while for them to learn the system so that it's second nature to everyone one. In saying I do enjoying watching all the goals we conceded to see where it went wrong so I can see in future games to see if we do it differently and have learnt.

if Skrtel puts his foot through it do you still see these mistakes as you claim they are, this is what i mean about hindsight, the outcome is affecting your view of things surely, other than that they are human and not pixels.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2012, 08:37:15 pm »
if Skrtel puts his foot through it do you still see these mistakes as you claim they are, this is what i mean about hindsight, the outcome is affecting your view of things surely, other than that they are human and not pixels.


I've posted two videos of mistakes players made earlier that didn't lead to goals. If Skrtel puts his foot through the ball then that doesn't suddenly mean we don't have a massive gap between our central defenders, it's still there. With the nature of TV and camera angles I can't guarantee I'll spot what I think are mistakes all the time though. In that situation Skrtel has to put his foot through the ball and launch it deep into Citys half but considering that isn't our style then it's important the players and management notice the problem of Allen pushing ahead there.( Hope so anyway).

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2012, 08:38:02 pm »
All this whose fault is it is pointless.

We'll learn as much from that goal (and the first one) than we will from the game itself.  Think there is too much over analysis going on.  Skrtel fucked up but he will learn and maybe we will learn to help reduce the frequency of that situation happening again.  It's not a blame game though - we'll learn as a team

This.

You can talk about players who could or should have done this or that but the simple fact is if Skrtel looks up before passing the ball to Reina then the whole situation is avoided.

Let's not forget Skrtel was only playing left CB because Agger was suspended. Perhaps the left-footed Agger would have been more comfortable threading a ball to Sterling or playing a ball down the line.

As Tommy says, Skrtel and the team will learn from this and hopefully correct things on-going.





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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2012, 08:53:33 pm »
The tactical set up was very interesting and a massive difference compared to last season. Every player knew what to do in terms of movement off the ball in posession, in attack and in defending although I thought, just as in the last games, that there is still the most work to do here, defending as a unit. Overall I was suprised how much Rodgers has drilled into the players already though.

I am just so glad that Rodgers proved all his words to be true, I had my doubts, not on his football knowledge but on the circumstances, but now I think we can expect something good coming.

In addition, his team selection was more than positive to me, his system depends on the right players and it all makes perfectly sense, the quality of the players in some key positions is way better and as to be seen yesterday, it only takes a couple of changes together with a proper modern football approach and the entire game looks completely different.

Coates, Shelvey, Allen, Sterling and Borini made a massive difference and with Lucas, Sahin and probably even more coming in there is a lot different in comparison to last season which gives a lot of reason for being positive.

Concerning the tactics I was surprised to see how flexible the set up seems to be. It´s probably too early to judge but the gaps, distances between the players, triangles in possession are very often anything than narrow and makes it very difficult for the opponent to close down which explains the statement of Toure. City was fucked at the end, the barely couldn´t walk which is a consequence of the hard work they had to do off the ball DESPITE having about 50% possession.

Rodgers is expecting a lot from his players in terms of passing accuracy and tactical movement here though, and it was clear to see when looking at both games, Hearts compared to City, that some player just won´t be able to make it happen. Adam, Spearing, Downing especially although I have my doubts on Henderson as well.

Curious on the next games and the last couple of days of the window. Rodgers is up for a suprise, a positive one.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 09:14:40 pm by steveeastend »
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2012, 10:56:22 pm »
All this whose fault is it is pointless.

Most football debate is pointless if you really think about it. Should we stop doing it? Impossible. You are living it proof of it. You too want your say! And why not?

Although you don't know what to think. First it's Shelvey's fault....

Shelvey didn't move into the space so the pass wasn't on.

Then it's Allen's.....

Allen didn't drop back so there wasn't really an option there either. 

Then it's Skrtel's....

Skrtel fucked up but he will learn.

He'll learn what? Not to fuck up? I hope so. I also hope that the situation will be better analysed at Melwood than you've just done there! I'm sure it will be.



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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2012, 11:02:19 pm »

Even if you have the ball I don't think we should ever have a 50yard gap between our central defenders with 10 minutes to go against a team like City, it's far to high risk.

You better get used to it Willy. Rodgers won't change this approach. One of his greatest games at Swansea was a defence of a slender lead v Arsenal. The temptation - in those last 10 minutes -  must have been for his players to revert to old-fashioned footy and start tonking the ball upfield at every opportunity. But they famously didn't do this. They knew that they would never see the ball again and that the last thing you want to do when defending a lead against a team that loves the ball is give them the ball. So they played 'keep ball'. We all saw it on MotD. It was amazing. Arsenal couldn't get a kick and Swansea preserved their lead.

I think Martin Skrtel was trying to do this on Sunday. He failed badly. But I very much doubt that next time he'll lump it forward with 10 minutes still to go. I don't think Rodgers would let him do that. He'll tell them that it's the riskiest way of defending a lead. 
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2012, 11:04:20 pm »







Out of frame, about something like 10 yards beyond the midway line was Enrique, if I am not mistaken. A left footed CB could have easily gone 'longish' over the top of the man pressurizing him closest to the side-line. Skrtel had no good options once he got pinned between the sideline and the two pressing MCFC players. The pass back to Reina wasn't on, either, given Reina's positioning and Tevez lurking. Had he turned, as he did, and seen Tevez lurking and paused, he might have had a chance at a 'system-compatible' exchange of passes with Reina, who would have moved to his left and closer to Skrtel.

On the general point about long passes in BR's system: hoofing/hopeful balls in the general area of a team-mate are not really on, I figure. On the other hand, if the opposition commits players up front to close down the short passing game, thus obviously leaving longer (including diagonal) passes open, then logic (and even possession-maintenance) dictates that the option should be taken.

Before Lucas injured himself, he had not received a single pass by Reina or the CBs while facing Reina's goal; Nasri was on him constantly, and Tevez and Baloteli were on our CBs tight. In such a situation, the players in Allen's and Gerrard's positions are likely to be more open, less-tightly pressed. Anyway.
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2012, 11:05:34 pm »
You better get used to it Willy. Rodgers won't change this approach. One of his greatest games at Swansea was a defence of a slender lead v Arsenal. The temptation - in those last 10 minutes -  must have been for his players to revert to old-fashioned footy and start tonking the ball upfield at every opportunity. But they famously didn't do this. They knew that they would never see the ball again and that the last thing you want to do when defending a lead against a team that loves the ball is give them the ball. So they played 'keep ball'. We all saw it on MotD. It was amazing. Arsenal couldn't get a kick and Swansea preserved their lead.

I think Martin Skrtel was trying to do this on Sunday. He failed badly. But I very much doubt that next time he'll lump it forward with 10 minutes still to go. I don't think Rodgers would let him do that. He'll tell them that it's the riskiest way of defending a lead. 



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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2012, 11:36:47 pm »
Most football debate is pointless if you really think about it. Should we stop doing it? Impossible. You are living it proof of it. You too want your say! And why not?

Although you don't know what to think. First it's Shelvey's fault....

Then it's Allen's.....

Then it's Skrtel's....

He'll learn what? Not to fuck up? I hope so. I also hope that the situation will be better analysed at Melwood than you've just done there! I'm sure it will be.

You've read my post in the wrong context and picked the bits best suited to build yourself a post mate. I'm referring to the post with the pic on it which I didn't want to quote due to size.

If you read the rest of my posts it is quite clear that my opinion is that Skrtel is at fault. You can dress it up any way you want to but the lads reaction to conceding the goal clears that up. What if 'Allen had dropped back', what if 'Shelvey had made himself available'.

We can go on all week saying people should have done this and that. The fact is that players are human beings. The aren't programmed and it's unavoidable that from time to time they won't read the situation.

It's wrong to blame one person but in this instance it's silly to blame Allen or Shelvey. He may still have made the same mistake if everyone had been perfectly positioned. Skrtel had the ball and had to make a decision - he did and it was the wrong one.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2012, 11:45:59 pm »
I don't think Rodgers would let him do that. He'll tell them that it's the riskiest way of defending a lead.

As Grkstv suggests, from occasionally it isn't possible to retain possession and the longer ball is the only option. Whether it's the riskiest way to defend a lead or not is probably dictated by the situation.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2012, 11:52:17 pm »
A couple of quick points:
1. We didn't create many opportunities and those we did mostly came from a 17 y/o Sterling. When you look at it both our goals came from set pieces. Something we can't be relying on for the season. For me that's a tad worrying.

2. The midfield did a fantastic job in controlling the ball and defending. I felt we bossed City in that regard. I barely noticed Torre, De Jong & Nasri. In comparison Allen, Gerrard & Shelvey seemed everywhere. The defence too (apart from two brain fades) was stellar. That for me bodes well for the season. I'm expecting once we settle we'll look very good in that regard.

With 4 days left in the transfer window I can't help but think we need to add to our attack. To me we feel both a little light on attacking players and toothless.

 
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2012, 12:06:58 am »
All this whose fault is it is pointless.

Shelvey didn't move into the space so the pass wasn't on.  Allen didn't drop back so there wasn't really an option there either.  We had run ourselves into the ground for 80 minutes so is it not asking too much to consider that we might have been fucked at that stage?  Even Barcelona won't have 4 or 5 options on 100% of the time so sometimes it will be inevitable that a mistake will happen or we'll simply have to hoof it.

The fact of the matter is that Martin Skrtel has possession of the ball.  If no pass to another outfield player is on, he either passes back to Pepe or puts a foot through it.  Regardless of wherever other players are on the field he has to deal with it.  In hindsight the safer option would have been to aim for a restricted view seat at the Anny Road end of the Main Stand.  But surely if you are going to make a back pass to the keeper you check it is safe to do so?

We'll learn as much from that goal (and the first one) than we will from the game itself.  Think there is too much over analysis going on.  Skrtel fucked up but he will learn and maybe we will learn to help reduce the frequency of that situation happening again.  It's not a blame game though - we'll learn as a team

I agree with this. It's far too easy to post a split second snapshot and start spouting on about how 'player X should have done this' or 'player Y should have been here'. The simple fact is Skrtel fucked up by playing the ball blind. Hopefully he wont do it again.

My own take on the match is that it left me feeling a lot more optimistic about our prospects this season. I felt we showed City too much respect for the first 20 minutes and failed to press them effectively. Maybe the loss of Lucas threw us a bit and it was a major disappointment for me that we were unable to see what would seem to be Rodgers' first 11 all playing in their preferred positions.
 Joe Allen had to drop back to play the Lucas role and he did it fantastically but I can't wait to see what he can produce in a more advanced role.
 After that opening 20 minute period I thought we pretty much bossed it but as we all know we have a habit of shooting ourselves in the foot and yesterday was more of the same. We really need to learn how to take what we deserve from these type of games otherwise we will continue to talk about 'what might have been.
 I was very impressed with Sterling and think he will be a household name by the end of the season. Borini came into it more second half but I'm still a bit confused as to what he actually is. Suarez looked a bit off the pace to me but his goal was sheer genius.
 All in all I was pleased with a point and I reckon the champions travelled back to Manchester very relieved to have avoided defeat.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2012, 12:18:01 am »
As Grkstv suggests, from occasionally it isn't possible to retain possession and the longer ball is the only option. Whether it's the riskiest way to defend a lead or not is probably dictated by the situation.

Even to retain possession, the longer ball may be the better option, under some circumstances. If, as Pep said, the pressing team would prefer to regain possession with 30 rather than 60 yards to go, then it follows that: if 1. all players around you and you are marked and 2. either your individual creativity or your teammates' movement is not happening such that you can be quite certain that you can retain possession without a long pass, then 3. by all means pass it longer to an actual teammate of yours (not a general area) who's open/unmarked away from your defensive third, and risk HIM conceding possession THERE a bit later, rather than 4. attempting a silly, blind, poor (short) pass to a man who's well marked, only to concede possession right away in your defensive third. That has to be an option; otherwise, the 4ps that summarize Brendan Rodgers' system become a suicide pact when used against a well-trained, pressing, talented team.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:26:23 am by GrkStav »
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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2012, 12:38:38 am »
You better get used to it Willy. Rodgers won't change this approach. One of his greatest games at Swansea was a defence of a slender lead v Arsenal. The temptation - in those last 10 minutes -  must have been for his players to revert to old-fashioned footy and start tonking the ball upfield at every opportunity. But they famously didn't do this. They knew that they would never see the ball again and that the last thing you want to do when defending a lead against a team that loves the ball is give them the ball. So they played 'keep ball'. We all saw it on MotD. It was amazing. Arsenal couldn't get a kick and Swansea preserved their lead.

I think Martin Skrtel was trying to do this on Sunday. He failed badly. But I very much doubt that next time he'll lump it forward with 10 minutes still to go. I don't think Rodgers would let him do that. He'll tell them that it's the riskiest way of defending a lead.

I never said he should revert to hoof ball. I simply said you can't leave your centre backs 50 yards apart in that spot. We can still keep ball when Allen drops back in as a centre back. Just watch the last 10 minutes of the Arsenal match there. They had 3 great chances to score and probably had the majority of the possession. Also 2 of the 3 times the keeper got the ball he open play he hoofed it up field. Another he tried to counter. I also agree Skrtel won't hoof it upfield, that's why not having such a big gap is crucial. Next time Skrtel will have to force a pass down the line. Hopefully Shelvey/Enrique will do a better job of giving him an easier pass to make or else Skrtel makes a quick first time pass.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 2 - 2 Man City
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2012, 06:28:25 am »
Salute to Rodgers for playing Jonjo, Sterling and Coates.  Coates will be a monster successor to Carra, who had been great for us.  As for Downing and Adam, they have nothing to do with intelligent gameplay.   

The teamwork still has much to improve.  The players need to move to creat options for passing.  That is what will stretch defense and create penetration, especially in the final 3rd.  Even in defense, we can see how no one moved to provide an outlet for Skrtel when he was facing two players.  Granted he backpassed without looking, but some one could have moved in to support. 

A couple of posts said the 1st goal was Reina's error.  It was not.  Skrtel had a glancing header on it and that's why Reina missed.  If there's error in there it was Skertl, who made a weak clearance header. 

And our captain should really speak up to the ref to protest the rough handling of our forwards.  He has a duty to protect his team mates.  Learn something from Souness, if not from Keane.