Topic: Lionel Messi

[C]

Lucho Gonzalez,Fernando Gago,Evar Bengea(who has been amazing this year),Lavezzi,Sergio bloody Aquero!Dont think Higuain is quite fancied so id expect it to be more so

      Masch     Cambiasso

   Tevez    Aguero  Messi
           
                Milito

ever has had a class season but too tempermental to start in a WC, travesty if kun aguero starts infront of higuain.

gago is poo

[buzzing]

Best player in the world. Fact

Will he go down better than Maradona: IMO no. Diego won the italian title and WC on his own

Once again IMO: The real Ronaldo is the only player i've seen that had it to be up there with Maradona. Just a shame his knees gave up. So as with the other poster earlier said, Messi is awesome, but for me the real Ronaldo was better

[wardides]

As stupid as it sounds aquero is maradonas son in law.He will start.

[Daranoza]

I think people are going to have to start including Higuain in all these discussions.

The lad is criminally under-rated, despite his performances being absolutely breath-taking.

Underrated he may be, he's not on the same level as Messi.

[Livid]

Underrated he may be, he's not on the same level as Messi Villa Rooney Drogba Ronaldo Torres Van Persie Forlan.

[rednich85]

I'd have him over Forlan

Without question

[Livid]

I'd have him over Forlan

Without question

Fair dos, but I still regard Higuain in the second tier of strikers with the likes of Forlan, Milito, Anelka etc.
Tevez, Ibrahimovic, Adebayor are all better than him, too.

[Xxavi]

Best player in the world. Fact

Will he go down better than Maradona: IMO no. Diego won the italian title and WC on his own

Once again IMO: The real Ronaldo is the only player i've seen that had it to be up there with Maradona. Just a shame his knees gave up. So as with the other poster earlier said, Messi is awesome, but for me the real Ronaldo was better

I don't think Maradona won anything on his own. It is a myth as much as any other cliches in world football. If anybody thinks that a worthless team can be taken to winning titles by a single player, IMO, still doesn't understand footy.

Maradona might have been a brilliant player, but say if his team was leaking goals every match, he couldn't have won shit. Yes, Maradona was THE star player of his teams, the playmaker and goalscorer etc., but do you honestly believe that Argie team was that shit? Or say England-Argentina match in 1986, do you think if Argie defense was shit and conceded 4 goals they could win anything? There were star players in Argentina team like Valdano, Canigga etc., and they were very good players.

Its funny that Ronaldo winning multiple titles with ManU or Messi winning 6 trophies in a year will never equate to Maradona, because apparently Barca and ManU players are so good, compared to the dross in Napoli team.

[Livid]

Its funny that Ronaldo winning multiple titles with ManU or Messi winning 6 trophies in a year will never equate to Maradona, because apparently Barca and ManU players are so good, compared to the dross in Napoli team.

I think you'll find that United were a one man team with Ronaldo.
Since he left we've become a.... one man team.

[Xxavi]

I think you'll find that United were a one man team with Ronaldo.
Since he left we've become a.... one man team.

No, I concede that Maradona was the best ever together with Pele, just because how popular they were around the world.

But sometimes it gets funny that people even don't consider that there can be another player who plays just as well. Why not?

Napoli team that won titles with Maradona wasn't shit. They were one of the top teams in Serie A even before Diego's arrival, finished third in 80/81, 4th in 81/82, and had a blip to 9th position in 82/83 and then to 11th. So this was an underachieving team. They spent world record on Maradona, but not only him was brought. He didn't win them scudetto immediately. According to wiki () they were on 8th position with Maradona in 1984-85 season and 3rd in 1985-86 season.

This is the time when Napoli was constantly buying new and better players.

The squad was gradually re-built, with the likes of Ciro Ferrara, Salvatore Bagni and Fernando De Napoli filling the ranks.

They already had Careca and Alemao...

These are the times when world football was not as imperialistic as now - top teams weren't full of expensive superstars, so 3-4 good acquisitions could bump you up to the top of table.

I think its about time that we agree that football has changed and there can be players as good as Maradona.

[wardides]

Xavi is making the same point i was trying to make.Plus the fact is if messi was to do this he would have to join somebody like Villa/Spurs/City.Fact is he wont go to any of these clubs(and if he did go to city he would be called greedy).Hes a genius.

[CaptainBeefheart]

No, I concede that Maradona was the best ever together with Pele, just because how popular they were around the world.

But sometimes it gets funny that people even don't consider that there can be another player who plays just as well. Why not?

Napoli team that won titles with Maradona wasn't shit. They were one of the top teams in Serie A even before Diego's arrival, finished third in 80/81, 4th in 81/82, and had a blip to 9th position in 82/83 and then to 11th. So this was an underachieving team. They spent world record on Maradona, but not only him was brought. He didn't win them scudetto immediately. According to wiki () they were on 8th position with Maradona in 1984-85 season and 3rd in 1985-86 season.

This is the time when Napoli was constantly buying new and better players. They already had Careca and Alemao...

These are the times when world football was not as imperialistic as now - top teams weren't full of expensive superstars, so 3-4 good acquisitions could bump you up to the top of table.

I think its about time that we agree that football has changed and there can be players as good as Maradona.

Napoli weren't shit but they'd never won a Scudetto before.  Like you say even after Maradona arrived the success wasn't instant, but after the '86 World Cup things changed, 2 titles and 2 seasons as runners up with a Coppa Italia and a Uefa cup is by far the most succesful time in their history.  They even changed managers in between title wins.  As for "constantly buying new players and better players", that's what all teams try to do isn't it, they may have broke the world record for Maradona but Milan, Internazionale, Roma etc didn't simply freeze their squads.  Careca and Alemao came after the first title win.  When Maradona left, his career faultering because of the drugs and the other stuff Napoli never reached those heights again.  I think it'd be hard to argue that he wasn't a major catalyst for Napoli's late eighties success.
 
Anyway I'm not acually contesting that Messi isn't as good.  You could count on one hand the full games I've seen Maradona in when he was there in his prime whereas I can watch Messi most weeks so I'm in no place to compare.  In my other post I was saying that he did something that Messi will probably never get the chance to do, play for a team that have hardly won anything and have a big part in changing that, I think this is something that alters peoples perceptions when they start talking about 'the greatest of all time'.

[wardides]

In my other post I was saying that he did something that Messi will probably never get the chance to do, play for a team that have never won anything and have a big part in changing that, I think this is something that alters peoples perceptions when they start talking about 'the greatest of all time'.

This is what I was trying to say his unfair on Messi.He went to Napoli because his attitude was wrong at Barca.In that way of thinking Messi would have to leave Barcelona and join somebody like Spurs.Can you imagine what would be siad about him?I dont think any footballer in the world would make that switch,and Messi feels at home in Barcelona, they gave him his break,raised him and provided for his family aswell as paying for ALL of his medical care for his condition(something like 1k a month) from the age of 12.

[CaptainBeefheart]

This is what I was trying to say his unfair on Messi.He went to Napoli because his attitude was wrong at Barca.In that way of thinking Messi would have to leave Barcelona and join somebody like Spurs.Can you imagine what would be siad about him?I dont think any footballer in the world would make that switch,and Messi feels at home in Barcelona, they gave him his break,raised him and provided for his family aswell as paying for ALL of his medical care for his condition(something like 1k a month) from the age of 12.

Agree.  Can you imagine in three years if he assembled Iniesta, Xavi, Pique et al and said (in Spanish) "Right lads, I'm off to Aston Villa to try and win the Premiership, I've got to REALLY prove myself".  People would think he was a lunatic.

[KUNGFUDANCER]

messi will never have ronaldinho's physicality, passing and vision along with dribbling ability. he is too one dimensional and will find it hard against tough physical opponents.

[Juan Loco]

messi will never have ronaldinho's passing and vision along with dribbling ability.

wibble.

[CaptainBeefheart]

wibble.

Hahaha

[Xxavi]

You just never know how things would have been "if". Maradona could have stayed at Barca and ended up not as legendary, despite being the same person with same talents.

Also, comparing players of different era, back then, there were rules like no more than 3 foreigners in one team. Which meant large number of players are native and the gap in quality between the top teams and 3rd-4th teams were not like between Spurs and ManU. So saying "if Messi goes to Spurs, he won't win them title" is not fair, IMO.

As I said, back then, purchase of 3-4 top players would put you right in the mix of title contenders. Napoli had Careca, Alemao, bought Ferrara and Maradona etc. Conversely, I am sure that this Messi would have won that Napoli the title. No doubt about it. Speed of the game is much faster. Or to put it differently, I am sure Maradona wouldn't win a league title with Atletico Madrid in Spain.

[MidwestWool]

messi will never have ronaldinho's physicality, passing and vision along with dribbling ability. he is too one dimensional and will find it hard against tough physical opponents.

Hahahahaha!

[Serano]

As good as Messi and Ronaldo are, I still don't think they're as talented as even Ronaldinho was in his prime, let alone Maradona, Zidane & the real Ronaldo etc.

[Juan Loco]

I think Messi is definitely more talented than Ronaldinho myself. I just think Ronaldinho was far more of a showman with his abilities.

[sinnermichael]

still average. a one footed wonder who plays in a poor league. darren gough said so.

[Serano]

I think Messi is definitely more talented than Ronaldinho myself. I just think Ronaldinho was far more of a showman with his abilities.

Ronaldinho in his prime had a lot more to his game than Messi currently does. Headers, set peices, 60 yard passes, dribbling, 2 footedness, pace, strength...he had it all.

Obviously, with that description a certain Ronaldo sounds very similar, but I don't think his dribbling, vision or passing is anywhere near the level of Ronaldinho, though he is better in the air and faster than Ronaldinho ever was.

I think you're right in the fact that Ronaldinho was a showman, but he was also damn mighty effective with it too.

[pinky]

No, I concede that Maradona was the best ever together with Pele, just because how popular they were around the world.

But sometimes it gets funny that people even don't consider that there can be another player who plays just as well. Why not?

Napoli team that won titles with Maradona wasn't shit. They were one of the top teams in Serie A even before Diego's arrival, finished third in 80/81, 4th in 81/82, and had a blip to 9th position in 82/83 and then to 11th. So this was an underachieving team. They spent world record on Maradona, but not only him was brought. He didn't win them scudetto immediately. According to wiki () they were on 8th position with Maradona in 1984-85 season and 3rd in 1985-86 season.

This is the time when Napoli was constantly buying new and better players. They already had Careca and Alemao...

These are the times when world football was not as imperialistic as now - top teams weren't full of expensive superstars, so 3-4 good acquisitions could bump you up to the top of table.

I think its about time that we agree that football has changed and there can be players as good as Maradona.

As well as this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--ACUzCCza8

I think that there are people who are not fully aware of Maradona's dimension as a player, that's it, all that he could offer on a football pitch.

[Serano]

I still think Ronaldo (Brazilian one) is the finest attacking player along with Zidane in recent decades. I would have Ronaldinho third, then the likes of Messi, Rivaldo, other Ronaldo, then I think you're possibly going down another tier after that.

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He had it all.

[Serano]

Hmm, I royally screwed that up.

[scatman]

Maradona scored twice in the quaters, twice in the semi and set up the winner in the final in 86? Zidane scored twice in the final in '98, but he was unavailable for the Paraguay game (which france were fortunate to win), the Italy game was dour and went to penalties and is anyone really going to take the Croatia semi-final away from Thuram? That was as good a fullback display as there's been.

I'll give you Euro2000, but if memory serves Totti and a couple of the dutch players (De Boor was it?) had really good tournaments as well.

I thought Zidane was one of the best in the world, but I still don't think he was any better than someone like Rivaldo. I didn't get to see the likes of Cryuff but if Zidane was really on par with them then that's a disappointment for me.

Have to agree, I thought Ronaldo was the star performer of that tournament, regardless of what happened in that final, he was the best player in the tournament. That was Zidane's elevation to 'greatness', he scored 2 goals in a World Cup final held in his country, the adulation that came after was obvious, the media in France were going to go mental.

I can't believe Xavvi up there is trying to play down Ronaldo's achievements after he was injured. I guess that World Cup in 2002 (after his Inter knee injuries and just coming back) wasn't that great of an achievement was obviously a crappy achievement, I mean how many guys have scored 8 goals in a World Cup, nevermind a hattrick at Old Trafford for the opposition in a CL game. A non-factor for most of the game??? Keepers are non-factors for most of the game, doesnt mean that Lev Yashin is less of a legend than Michael Laudrup, etc. Of course Real Madrid fans didnt care about Ronaldo, they are a bunch of c*nts who took their galacticos for granted not realising the 'fat' boy had scored a stunning 100 goals in 164 games before his injury problems recurred in the 4th season. I guess that's absolutely shite for a striker in some people's eyes.

Where was Zidane in 2004 when Ronaldo got injured and suddenly out of the CL, out the Cup and out of the title race, that was the reason for the utter failure in that season, Ronaldo's injury (he was still the Pichichi despite missing last 2 months), not the class of Zizi.

[pinky]

Rapcage.

The only people who don't know how good Ronaldo was back then were the ones who didn't see him play often. For instance, many of Liverpool supporters judging by some of the opinions I've read here for years. Not precisely the ones watching him every week.

In fact, whoever with minimal knowledge is aware that Madrid was about Casillas and Ronaldo, and absolutely nobody else. That's how damn good he was.

[CorKopite]

By far the most gifted player Ive ever seen live,special special player.

Also the most entertaining player on the planet by miles.If he keeps it going can certainly see him going down as the greatest ever.His attitude is also spot on,never gets too ahead of himself.Will most certainly be watching every single Argentina game this summer just to see him in action.

[Effes]

Give me a Van Basten over a Brazilian Ronaldo anyday.

[ElMagico]

Fair dos, but I still regard Higuain in the second tier of strikers with the likes of Forlan, Milito, Anelka etc.
Tevez, Ibrahimovic, Adebayor are all better than him, too.

There is no way Adebayor is better than Higuain. Neither is Zlatan.

Remember he is only 22 aswell. 51 in 89 for real madrid not a bad goalscoring record.

[Tweekage]

               Masch
Messi                   Tevez
              Aguero
  Higuain         Milito

[Effes]

               Masch
Messi                   Tevez
              Aguero
  Higuain         Milito

Manager - Maradona

Is the down-side

[Xxavi]

As good as Messi and Ronaldo are, I still don't think they're as talented as even Ronaldinho was in his prime, let alone Maradona, Zidane & the real Ronaldo etc.

Messi's last season is better than Ronaldinho's any season, IMO. And yes, he is more talented than Ronaldinho, too. More efficient, better at going past multiple players. He isn't as physical as Ronaldinho, and not as good of a free kick taker and header of the ball, but Messi does things that he does best at such a level... I think he is more talented.

Hope he doesn't degrade as quick as Ronaldinho. Fingers crossed.

[Xxavi]

As well as this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--ACUzCCza8

I think that there are people who are not fully aware of Maradona's dimension as a player, that's it, all that he could offer on a football pitch.

So what's the verdict? Maradona is the best in the history and will stay as such forever?

All I am saying, the times change. You cannot expect somebody to repeat exactly the same things Maradona did. These days, top teams permanently occupy first 1-3 places and teams below how to buy entire new 11 or 7-8 players to compete. Back in the days, the gap was closer, and obviously Napoli could do the job.

[Xxavi]

Have to agree, I thought Ronaldo was the star performer of that tournament, regardless of what happened in that final, he was the best player in the tournament. That was Zidane's elevation to 'greatness', he scored 2 goals in a World Cup final held in his country, the adulation that came after was obvious, the media in France were going to go mental.

I can't believe Xavvi up there is trying to play down Ronaldo's achievements after he was injured. I guess that World Cup in 2002 (after his Inter knee injuries and just coming back) wasn't that great of an achievement was obviously a crappy achievement, I mean how many guys have scored 8 goals in a World Cup, nevermind a hattrick at Old Trafford for the opposition in a CL game. A non-factor for most of the game??? Keepers are non-factors for most of the game, doesnt mean that Lev Yashin is less of a legend than Michael Laudrup, etc. Of course Real Madrid fans didnt care about Ronaldo, they are a bunch of c*nts who took their galacticos for granted not realising the 'fat' boy had scored a stunning 100 goals in 164 games before his injury problems recurred in the 4th season. I guess that's absolutely shite for a striker in some people's eyes.

Where was Zidane in 2004 when Ronaldo got injured and suddenly out of the CL, out the Cup and out of the title race, that was the reason for the utter failure in that season, Ronaldo's injury (he was still the Pichichi despite missing last 2 months), not the class of Zizi.

In the end, Ronaldo didn't win the Champions League title for Madrid. Zidane did.
I consider pre-injury Ronaldo as up there with the best, but coming back in 2002 and playing 2-3 years, half of time walking on the pitch. No, after the injury, he wasn't his former self and not a patch to Zidane, IMO. You brought goal scoring statistics, what do you say about fake Ronaldo's statistics in past 2-3 years?
What about Messi's statistics? RVN and Henry? All were/are brilliant goalscorers, but we are talking about absolute best in the history.

Anyway, it is debatable, but IMO after Maradona (not putting current players in there)
1. Pre-injury Ronaldo
2. Zidane
3. Ronaldinho (because unfortunately his top form spanned no more than 3-4 years)
4. Rivaldo
...
the rest including after-injury Ronaldo. For me, over his career, Zidane takes number 1 spot, then Ronaldinho on the second spot. Rivaldo shares 3rd spot with Ronaldo (overall career).

[Xxavi]

Give me a Van Basten over a Brazilian Ronaldo anyday.

IMO, pre-injury Ronaldo is miles better than Van Basten, but after-injury Ronaldo is worse than Marco.
Also talking about players of 90s, Romario was a great goalscorer, too, and probably was better than after injury Ronaldo in his hey days.

[torres09]

Hard to believe he's still only 22 it seems he's been around for ever. Different class this guy. Love watching him.

[scatman]

In the end, Ronaldo didn't win the Champions League title for Madrid. Zidane did.
I consider pre-injury Ronaldo as up there with the best, but coming back in 2002 and playing 2-3 years, half of time walking on the pitch. No, after the injury, he wasn't his former self and not a patch to Zidane, IMO. You brought goal scoring statistics, what do you say about fake Ronaldo's statistics in past 2-3 years?
What about Messi's statistics? RVN and Henry? All were/are brilliant goalscorers, but we are talking about absolute best in the history.

Anyway, it is debatable, but IMO after Maradona (not putting current players in there)
1. Pre-injury Ronaldo
2. Zidane
3. Ronaldinho (because unfortunately his top form spanned no more than 3-4 years)
4. Rivaldo
...
the rest including after-injury Ronaldo. For me, over his career, Zidane takes number 1 spot, then Ronaldinho on the second spot. Rivaldo shares 3rd spot with Ronaldo (overall career).

Fair play thats your call from players you've seen, from what I've seen i have Ronaldo at the top regardless of pre injury or after lol Messi will be up there as one of the greatest, he gets a lot of kicks just like they did in the old days but still gets past with magical dribbling and close control, as good as Ronaldinho was/is at dribbling, Messi is on another level, a Maradona level i guess in that skill.

[lovelymofo]

As well as this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--ACUzCCza8

I think that there are people who are not fully aware of Maradona's dimension as a player, that's it, all that he could offer on a football pitch.

This is the match against Bayern last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xKb3pvDofA

Good passing around the 2 minute mark, no? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCDffWf2bck

And a good pass to set up Henry for the first goal against Real Madrid last year. 

I definitely think he's the top player in the world right now and expect him to be at the very least a very strong contender for one of the greatest ever.  You know, barring any major injuries and if he manages to have a good WC despite Maradona.