Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[classycarra]

I watched that Owen Jones interview with Alastair Campbell.

Christ. That was awful.

How so?

The masochist in me is considering giving it a go

[killer-heels]

I watched that Owen Jones interview with Alastair Campbell.

Christ. That was awful.

Owen Jones actually made some good points that Campbell conceded but because its delivered by Owen Jones you actually dont want it to be true.

[Libertine]

I watched that Owen Jones interview with Alastair Campbell.

Christ. That was awful.

Have to admit I'm struggling with it, even though I think Campbell is always a fascinating listen, regardless of yours views about him.

Hard to believe how immature Jones comes across as. Could be an interesting debate between two opposing viewpoints of the left, but he's like a petulant child.

[classycarra]

Owen Jones actually made some good points that Campbell conceded but because its delivered by Owen Jones you actually dont want it to be true.

I wonder, did Owen concede any points?

He doesn't strike me as the type, especially to Campbell. He wouldn't be able to look some of his mates in the eye after that. He loves deflecting, obfuscating and ultimately playing the victim so much (and he's very experienced with it), that I expect there was a bit of that

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Owen Jones as usual was a silly child in it, could have presented himself better but he's becoming even more a left wing hopkins

23 mins in though Campbell makes a very good point about the 'fully costed' manifesto. And quite funny seeing jones accuse Blair of trying to sabotage corbyn when corbyn did the same to Blair when he ran the country

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Jones just acts like a spoilt child in it, really incredible.

Could be an interesting debate between two opposing viewpoints of the left, but he's like a petulant child.

Exactly. He can't engage in a mature dialogue, its all petty digs and trying to score points.

If Owen Jones was as clever as he thinks he is, he might try to see how the two sides of the party can be mediated, or reconciled - instead he just encourages division, which is exactly what will help Labour lose another election.

Shame as I quite enjoyed 'The Establishment' and didn't realise how much of a dick it was written by.

[Circa1892]

Owen Jones as usual was a silly child in it, could have presented himself better but he's becoming even more a left wing hopkins

That's what he is. And when you meet him in person he's a nasty, spiteful, arrogant little man with absolutely zero respect for workers.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

37 mins in jones is talking about how if he'd taken millions from Venezuela like Blair did from dictatorships it'd be career destroying, anyone ever asked him who paid for his trip to Caracas in 2013 to be an 'independent international observer' there?

[Libertine]

37 mins in jones is talking about how if he'd taken millions from Venezuela like Blair did from dictatorships it'd be career destroying, anyone ever asked him who paid for his trip to Caracas in 2013 to be an 'independent international observer' there?

Indeed. Or Corbyn being paid by Iran's Press TV.

[Zeb]

I watched that Owen Jones interview with Alastair Campbell.

Christ. That was awful.

Haha sorry Sam. Do agree with you about Owen Jones' attitude in that one. I found it quite enjoyable to watch because of it though. It contrasts so much with the more thoughtful and reflective Owen Jones who was interviewed by Campbell for GQ prior to the election. Jones is trying hard to please a certain audience, so it's revealing in its own way as Campbell isn't shy to point to the thinking which isn't being done. Even Campbell's final point on mental health services was spot on. Luciana Berger has been in the papers, again, on how the Government is saying one thing and doing another. In another world, taking absolute control of party machinery is the most vital part of leading the opposition. In my world, two people of more pragmatic bent are saying 'let's try to fix things to help people'. It's interesting priorities.

[Trada]

I do hope the play about the miners strike is done in mime, or perhaps with shadow puppets...

Haha. That play was the first thing that popped out to me. How contemporary!

Ouch, I just reread that paragraph instead of skimming it. When in doubt, more words!

Its Ron Roses play The Enemies within written a year after the strike using the real stories told by the miners.

Award winning director David Thacker directs his production of Ron Rose’s 1985 verbatim play The Enemies Within

A preview of it when he did it in the 90's

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/leisure/latest/4778303.Play_preview__The_Enemies_Within_in_Bolton/

[Yorkykopite]

Arthur should have called for a ballot.

Oops sorry, the old reflexes kicked in there. For many years it was impossible to have a conversation with anybody and not to bring up the miners' strike. In fact it used to be compulsory. "'Scuse me, do you know the way to Charing Cross Road?/Well it depends what you mean by 'uneconomic'......"

God, what a relief, when they scrapped that law and people could finally move on and talk about something else. 

[SP]

Arthur should have called for a ballot.

Oops sorry, the old reflexes kicked in there. For many years it was impossible to have a conversation with anybody and not to bring up the miners' strike. In fact it used to be compulsory. "'Scuse me, do you know the way to Charing Cross Road?/Well it depends what you mean by 'uneconomic'......"

God, what a relief, when they scrapped that law and people could finally move on and talk about something else. 

The something else being the Iraq War?

[Yorkykopite]

The something else being the Iraq War?

"Owen, mate! Can I borrow your mobile a sec"/"Well it's interesting you mention Fallujah...."

[ShakaHislop]

Tulip Siddiq defending freedom of movement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-conference-2017-brexit-jeremy-corbyn-freedom-movement-immigration-single-market-tulip-a7958731.html

[Nobby Reserve]

You can see it with the Trada fella in this thread. Nothing would him happier than a Corbynite in every position of authority in the party. Total uniformity. Total unanimity. The Stalin model if you like.

Rather, 'the NuLabour' model.

It wasn't right then and it isn't right now, but the control freakery arises largely from attempts by those on the right of the party to undermine Corbyn from the outset (briefing to right-wing media against him, plotting to find ways to get rid of him, etc), even when that damaged the party as a whole.

I maintain my belief that there are people on the right of the Labour Party who would rather a Tory government than a left-wing, Corbyn-led Labour government, as their personal policy preferences are closer to Tory than left-Labour.

[Yorkykopite]

I maintain my belief that there are people on the right of the Labour Party who would rather a Tory government than a left-wing, Corbyn-led Labour government, as their personal policy preferences are closer to Tory than left-Labour.

You do that. It's important to believe in something.. Any idea of who these people are?

[oldfordie]

You do that. It's important to believe in something.. Any idea of who these people are?

Ronnie Campbell, Frank Field, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, John Mann, Dennis Skinner and Graham Stringer

[SP]

It wasn't right then and it isn't right now, but the control freakery arises largely from attempts by those on the right of the party to undermine Corbyn from the outset (briefing to right-wing media against him, plotting to find ways to get rid of him, etc), even when that damaged the party as a whole.

You mean like Corbyn has done to every leader since Foot resigned?

[Yorkykopite]

Ronnie Campbell, Frank Field, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, John Mann, Dennis Skinner and Graham Stringer

Good point. I forgot them.

[Nobby Reserve]

You do that. It's important to believe in something.. Any idea of who these people are?

Wow. Condescension. Splendid.

As for names off the top of my head, I'd volunteer Liz Kendall, Tristram Hunt, Chuka Umunna, John Woodcock, Jamie Reed. It's hardly earth-shattering. Most were brought through the 'NuLabour fast-track' way - from University to Party researcher to Parliamentary assistant to advisor to prospective MP - and selected for their support of the New Labour 'project' and it's policies, before being parachuted into safe seats they had no previous connection or affinity to. And New Labour policies are generally closer to Tory Party policy than they are to some of the left-wing policies espoused by Corbyn.

You mean like Corbyn has done to every leader since Foot resigned?

I've no doubt you are easily intelligent enough to know the difference between a 'lone lefty' voting on principle against often right-of-centre policy, and a group of MP's on the Labour right feeding a right-wing press inside information and briefing against the elected (by a record margin) leader.


I will say now, because I don't want people to get the wrong impression (!), that I'm not some automatic Corbyn supporter. I think he's made some atrocious decisions, some of his shadow cabinet appointments are imbecilic, he's not a good leader, and I could tear my hair out at his pigheaded refusal to open the conciliatory door to try to bring more unity to the party.

But I do broadly support most of his domestic policies, especially concerning stronger employee rights, re-nationalisation of utilities, tax, anti-austerity, reversing pernicious benefit cuts, etc. After growing up in Thatcher's 80's and all the despair that that era brought, I've wanted a government that put society and fairness first and foremost. The feeling of disappointment with the Blair governments was crushing. To now, against all my expectations, have a Labour Party that positions itself close to where I sit on the political spectrum has reawakened a passion for politics.

I don't deserve smartarsedness for that.

[SP]

So your problem is that he moderate wing were better organised at opposing the elected leader of the party than Corbyn was?

You get a smartarse response because the serious debate on those events has been done to death - with neither side sufficiently acknowledging that the other side could have acted in that way for motivations not dissimilar to the other side, just a huge disagreement in the best way to achieve them. Besides if you are trying to pry open the door of labelling all of the factions that you disagree with as Tory, you will get it closed down fairly swiftly, for reasons that have already been explained countless times. 

[Yorkykopite]

Is politics more about feelings and personal fulfilment than it used to be? Is it about people being let down and crushed by disappointment and driven to tearing their hair out? And if so, is political leadership principally about reawakening our passion for politics?  If it is, then I say fair play to Corbyn. He's giving people what they want which is affirmation. What is Brexit to that?

[Nobby Reserve]

So your problem is that he moderate wing were better organised at opposing the elected leader of the party than Corbyn was?

You get a smartarse response because the serious debate on those events has been done to death - with neither side sufficiently acknowledging that the other side could have acted in that way for motivations not dissimilar to the other side, just a huge disagreement in the best way to achieve them. Besides if you are trying to pry open the door of labelling all of the factions that you disagree with as Tory, you will get it closed down fairly swiftly, for reasons that have already been explained countless times.

OK, I've not been party to previous discussions on here - and forgive me for not having the time to read 321 pages. I haven't labelled 'all of the factions that I disagree with as Tory' because that's palpably not going to be true. My point is that some on the right of the LP are so far removed along the political spectrum from Corbyn & where he's looking to position the LP, that they'd rather have a Tory government. It might or might not be accurate; it's just my opinion and you're welcome to debate it (rather than seeking to just belittle me or shut me up). But regardless, I also don't believe for one second that other people in the PLP who oppose Corbyn would prefer a Tory Govt, and their antipathy towards him is more nuanced - people like Beckett, Benn, Harmon, Cooper.

[SP]

OK, I've not been party to previous discussions on here - and forgive me for not having the time to read 321 pages. I haven't labelled 'all of the factions that I disagree with as Tory' because that's palpably not going to be true. My point is that some on the right of the LP are so far removed along the political spectrum from Corbyn & where he's looking to position the LP, that they'd rather have a Tory government. It might or might not be accurate; it's just my opinion and you're welcome to debate it (rather than seeking to just belittle me or shut me up). But regardless, I also don't believe for one second that other people in the PLP who oppose Corbyn would prefer a Tory Govt, and their antipathy towards him is more nuanced - people like Beckett, Benn, Harmon, Cooper.

Don't kid yourself, you read the previous hundreds of pages under your previous user id.

People join the Labour party because they believe in social justice. Even if you believe that the best way to achieve that is strong business growth to increase the tax take and hence be able to afford more of the expensive measure required to deliver social justice, that believe in social justice is the common bond that would preclude membership of the Tory party - especially under this shower of shite. There are not Tories on the Labour benches - and the accusation is a lazy ad hominem attack to deflect from some of the legitimate questions that were being asked. 

[oldfordie]

We can disagree over Iraq, refusing to acknowledge all the good Labour did when in office has done massive damage to the Labour party. Corbyns Labour is Labour.
You can't attack Labour for years for being uncaring and expect people to vote Labour just because Corbyns leader, many people don't follow politics, there not arsed about politics but they love a good moan and message of uncaring party has sunk in with many people. Corbyn also paid the price.
I would think anyone who has principles would admit Labour did massive good but I disagree with such and such a policy.
I wouldn't mind but someone posted a graph only the other day that showed absolute poverty was slashed when Labour came into power.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Matt Zarb Cousin, the man who was corbyns spokesman who left a while ago (coincidentally just before corbyns poll numbers started rising!) is trying to be an MP. Of course if he got it no way would he have been fast tracked due to loyalty to the leadership

[SP]

Matt Zarb Cousin, the man who was corbyns spokesman who left a while ago (coincidentally just before corbyns poll numbers started rising!) is trying to be an MP. Of course if he got it no way would he have been fast tracked due to loyalty to the leadership

This is one of those where the Corbyn-faithful are being hoisted by their own petards. Promoting from within the backroom staff has always been done by most parties. The most vocal critics of the New Labour candidates have strangely quiet now their faction is benefiting from it.

It is not a huge issue, other than opening up to the accusation of hypocrisy. Corbyn is doing political things that political leaders do. Only an issue if you buy into the hype that he is different.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Matt Zarb Cousin, the man who was corbyns spokesman who left a while ago (coincidentally just before corbyns poll numbers started rising!) is trying to be an MP. Of course if he got it no way would he have been fast tracked due to loyalty to the leadership

He's an absolute weapon as well.

It's like someone said before about Owen Jones - these people have absolutely no idea about working people, and have nothing but contempt for them - it's all about the party machinery and the political point scoring, rather than making conditions better for people through compromise.

[Nobby Reserve]

I wouldn't mind but someone posted a graph only the other day that showed absolute poverty was slashed when Labour came into power.

In terms of wealth equality, the GINI coefficient initially increased under the New Labour government, before falling back again to the 1997 level between 2001 and 2004. It then rose to reach a new record high by 2010, before dropping back once more and meandering around the 97 level since.



In terms on how we rank, we're 28th out of 34 OECD countries in the after-taxes chart, behind all other European countries except Portugal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#Gini_coefficient.2C_before_taxes_and_transfers

[Nobby Reserve]

these people have absolutely no idea about working people, and have nothing but contempt for them - it's all about the party machinery and the political point scoring, rather than making conditions better for people through compromise.

I don't think that's true at all. The issue is that dressing up as 'compromise' the maintaining of the status quo in terms of a unequal allocation of the income derived from the country's productivity  has meant that conditions haven't improved for 'people'.

[classycarra]

I don't think that's true at all. The issue is that dressing up as 'compromise' the maintaining of the status quo in terms of a unequal allocation of the income derived from the country's productivity  has meant that conditions haven't improved for 'people'.

How do you not compromise on the allocation of income? Aside from the state being the sole employer in the country, I can't see how it's possible?

And just to confirm, you don't think that conditions have improved for 'people' in the UK since the mid-90s?

[Nobby Reserve]

And just to confirm, you don't think that conditions have improved for 'people' in the UK since the mid-90s?

For some, yes.

For others - public sector workers, benefit claimants, those who rely on public services - undoubtedly not

[JohnnoWhite]

This is one of those where the Corbyn-faithful are being hoisted by their own petards. Promoting from within the backroom staff has always been done by most parties. The most vocal critics of the New Labour candidates have strangely quiet now their faction is benefiting from it.

It is not a huge issue, other than opening up to the accusation of hypocrisy. Corbyn is doing political things that political leaders do. Only an issue if you buy into the hype that he is different.

[/b]

Taking issue with this sweeping generalisation. Yes he has to indulge the politicking in Westminster - it's the political equivalent of a wild animal game reserve where certain "approaches" are the norm. But to suggest that he is just the same as all the others is thoroughly disingenuous.

Are you seriously asking us to believe that he is "just the same" as Johnson, Hammond, Gove, Hunt, May, IDS, Rudd, Greening, Fox, Davis, Green, Grayling, Grauke, Javid, Patel and Fallon - and all the other lesser hangers-on vermin? I'm just not having that disgusting allegation levelled without challenge.

Specifically ask the survivors of Grenfell Tower. Ask the London Fire Brigade. Ask the Ambulance crews and para-medics. Ask the nurses and junior doctors. Ask the TUC. Ask them all for their opinions of JC and once you've been given them then see whether you are sufficiently confident to attempt to tar him with the exact same brush.

[classycarra]

For some, yes.

For others - public sector workers, benefit claimants, those who rely on public services - undoubtedly not

On this post, I would argue we all rely on public services. Also the public sector pay freeze started in 2011, not under New Labour. You could argue things haven't improved for them (/us) since 2011, but you don't think they've improved since mid-90s?

How would you propose tackling income inequality?

You must have been tearing your hair out at the manifesto, plus Corbyn's comments, about tuition fees - given they'd widen inequality from a position you're already concerned about. Then confounded further by no commitment to reverse benefit cuts, despite a decade of rhetoric.

[classycarra]

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So exactly as SP said...!

And Yorky too, thinking about it. 'How does Corbyn make me feel' appears more important than 'is Corbyn doing something I criticise others for'

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

I don't think that's true at all. The issue is that dressing up as 'compromise' the maintaining of the status quo in terms of a unequal allocation of the income derived from the country's productivity  has meant that conditions haven't improved for 'people'.

Compromise is essential in order to get into power, to make a difference, like the Labour government did in 1997, when they made a huge improvement to the lives of ordinary people.

It's a lovely idea to be pure as the soft driven snow, but there is no purity in politics. Corbyn's not pure. He's a bit better than most of them, granted - but that small margin of indefinable 'betterness' isn't going to win him an election. He obviously recognises this, as the manifesto containing the huge tax cut to the middle classes that was the student loan writeoff plan was his. Be nice if his supporters recognised that both sides of the Labour party are required to work together in order to gain power, after which they can make a difference.

Although Trada et al seem to think he's running the country in opposition, judging by some of their posts.

[oldfordie]

In terms of wealth equality, the GINI coefficient initially increased under the New Labour government, before falling back again to the 1997 level between 2001 and 2004. It then rose to reach a new record high by 2010, before dropping back once more and meandering around the 97 level since.



In terms on how we rank, we're 28th out of 34 OECD countries in the after-taxes chart, behind all other European countries except Portugal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#Gini_coefficient.2C_before_taxes_and_transfers

If you want to concentrate on wealth distribution rather than all the massive change for the good then fine.  Don't the unions and the workers in this country need to take some of the blame.
The people of this country voted away the power to fight for a better standard of living.
The biggest issue during this period was unemployment not wealth distribution. people were quiet happy to earn a low wage when their wage was topped up with government benefits.
This was all about hiding the unemployment figures and we can blame Maggie for this tactic.
What was Labour to do, force company's to pay far higher wages and cut welfare benefits which would fuel higher prices and inflation and get voted out and the next GE.
Labour did something practical when they were in office. they helped people to enjoy a better standard of living and as I say ignoring this has been to the benefit of the Tory party. it certainly done a lot of harm to Corbyns Labour.

[ShakaHislop]

How can the current Labour party be credible in any way on the economy when they're not even sure what Brexit they want?

Corbyn's nothing but rhetoric.

[TepidT2O]

I spy a previously banned poster...