Author Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2  (Read 3496 times)

Offline redmark

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Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« on: February 8, 2016, 11:35:44 am »
It doesn't really fit with the mood of the moment, but I thought we played quite well. Not 2013/14-well, or 4-1 at the Etihad-well, but decently well. For about 80 minutes.

If there's a recurring theme for Liverpool sides under new management over the last twenty odd years, it's in waiting for 'something' to 'click'; in struggling to put away hard working, deep sitting defensive sides at Anfield. It's in struggling to get the attack going (often until the next inspired attacking signing), the old manager's midfield looking laboured and sluggish adapting to new ideas, while being susceptible to individual errors at the back; failing to put games to bed and getting nervous or tight in the last ten minutes.

Nothing new to see, here.

Eighty two percent possession in the first half, 71% overall. Sixteen efforts on goal (an indication, often evident during the game, that we were trying to carve good chances, not simply shooting on sight; mostly). It should come as no surprise that a side without a real number nine often worked the ball into good areas for a ball across the six yard box or pullback to the penalty spot, only to discover there was frequently no one there. On other occasions, there were signs of positive adaptation to our circumstances; a through ball eluding not one but two central midfielders making runs; Firmino pulling to the back post and putting in a proper centre forward's headed goal; Lallana following up Firmino's run and resisting the temptation to control the ball five times before slotting it home.

Patience and persistence in the absence of perfection; the final ball was mostly lacking, but it was the sort of display we've seen many times over the years, often just weeks before things click into place. A fraction slicker, crisper, quicker and sharper and that becomes a fluent attacking performance. Easier said than done, of course. But we've been here before, we've seen post-match threads full of "I wouldn't care if the lot of 'em got binned off in the summer". And then it clicks.

This remains a side lacking Coutinho and Sturridge - any striker, infact. Does the return of those suddenly make us title contenders? No. Even a bionic 30-goal a season Sturridge perhaps doesn't quite do that.

There's a lack of standout, star quality across the side. A dominant, quick, classy centre back. A keeper with a grasp of geometry. A fit, confident, system-approved striker. Some pace, drive and creativity. Mostly, perhaps, a midfielder with Gerrard/Alonso passing ability, Mascherano's bite and Gerrard's attacking drive.

But when I see post-match threads full of 'bin the lot' comments, I can't agree. There have been few squads over the years (perhaps none, at this stage of a manager's tenure) which actually had so little deadwood. There are no Poulsen and Koncheskys, no Biscan and Traores. That's not to say that a squad full of players like Lovren, Allen, Milner and Lallana is in a great place, either. But the talk of an 'imbalanced' squad I think misses the mark; it's all too 'balanced'. Plenty of decent, 6/7 out of 10 players. No Suarez, no Torres, no Carragher, no Alonso, no Mascherano, no Gerrard, no peak Lucas. No Sterling, if we're allowed to say that right now.

But there is balance in this squad. The majority is of a good age (if there's a concern here, it's that another crop of youngsters seems to have withered between academy and first team squad, with a bunch of 21/22 year olds already looking forward to careers in the Championship or Segunda). In sharp contrast to most of the post-match thread, I don't think a single player who started on Saturday desperately needs to be frogmarched out of the club; most will be good squad players at least, while several still have the ability to be part of a rather good side. We have few players approaching the end of their careers who desperately need replacing (though we still need to replace a handful that have done so, or moved on, in recent years).

What we need, is some real quality. Not necessarily £50m quality; just the right player. A new spine, perhaps.

Anyway, as far as late-winter will-we-make-the-Europa-League-spots games under new management go, it wasn't half bad at times. We were patient and probing, if blunt and lacking a bit of guile from midfield. We persevered and scored twice - better than in either of the two out of eight home league games under Klopp we've actually won so far. And then Sunderland got into the game a bit - I think, in response to the obvious and entirely worthy change in atmosphere as a result of the walkout. We withstood their mighty onslaught for all of two minutes before giving away a silly free kick, lining up the wall as if protecting the wrong side of the post and then retreating into full-on we're-going-to-fuck-this-up-aren't-we mode. But we've done that before, many times, in this sort of spell in the last quarter of a century.

« Last Edit: February 8, 2016, 11:43:18 am by redmark »
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Offline mkingdon

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #1 on: February 8, 2016, 03:24:53 pm »
I don't often post at the final whistle. I get too carried away at the extremes of emotion.

A win sees me predicting ridiculous things and a defeat writing the season off (again).

I came on here today to add my two penneth to the match day thread to see it closed....a portent of my own mood about the game.  Having watched it on very bad streams it was hard to get a real feel for how it went, but clearly we were in charge. As usual we fluffed many chances, but somehow got 2-0 to the good with ten minutes to go.

When things go badly, my black mood at the final whistle often lifts by the Monday and I can see things more clearly.

However, after Saturday I am angry...still.

Saturday showed yet again that we lack any form of leadership or dare I say bottle. This is personified by Mignolet who looks so scared of the ball he may well concede at the opponent's very first shot at goal...oh wait.....

Are we so bereft of grit and (that awful word) character since Gerrard (and maybe even Carra) left? Is this season an adjustment to that gaping hole after all the years in which Gerrard dragged us up by the boot laces?

Looking around, I don't see any of those characters. Milner, Clyne, Lallana and Mignolet are experienced EPL pros who we should be looking to here. Sakho is an international captain and Lovren is a well capped International too. They should be the leaders of the group, but to quote Delia, where are you? Let's be having you.

I like Henderson but he isn't looking like a captain and he (like almost every other player on the planet) does not possess Gerrard's ability to lift the entire team with one shot/tackle/moment of magic.

So I was and still am angry at our wet lettuce squad. One last minute winner does not a season make (Norwich away) and we look lost so many times in matches getting bullied by the likes of West Ham and Norwich (at times, despite ultimately winning).

Klopp has a huge job on here. Sure, the injuries have been horrific at a time when the fixture congestion was just as bad but 2-0 up at home to relegation fodder with ten minutes to go and we end 2-2 is just not acceptable. The team need to look at themselves and step up.

Don't make me angry....you wouldn't like me (care) when I'm angry.

Offline RedKenWah

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #2 on: February 8, 2016, 03:51:48 pm »
To be honest the first half, despite it being the absolute bore fest that it was, played out almost exactly like England v Andorra. Sunderland had no intention of attacking, and everytime they got the ball, they pumped it forward in hope of Jermaine Defoe holding it up and doing something... and it never happened and we controlled it very well. The downside was of course the absolute lack of quality to finish them off which we should have done numerous times over. I don't think the lack of quality in the squad was to blame, because it was virtually the same side in the second half and we finally scored.. but it was basic decision making that let us down.

I think as well there was a plan to use Sturridge at the later stages of this game but due to the quick fire injuries in the first half to Lovren & Allen, i think that plan was scuppered somewhat and understandably so...

The goals we scored... very well worked, Firmino showing his quality and his hard work was on show case again to make a goal...

And you would have thought that when we went 2 - 0 up, that would be the end of it... how we managed to allow Sunderland to come back into the game, 2 shots, 2 goals, and make us drop 2 points just beggers belief to be honest. The sheer lack of concentration, the lack of aggression is just remarkable. The team have to learn to get a lot more nasty, if we aren't going to build on a 2 - 0 lead, then we have to do what we can to make sure we don't make it 2 - 2 or even 2 - 1 and if that means picking up a few more yellow cards then so be it... but also learn to make fouls in not so dangerous areas... away from the 18 yard box, away from where someone like Adam Johnson can have a shot at goal and score.. Do it by the half way line, do it by the touch line, do it whereby they are 40 yards out, 30 yards out. Until we learn that then we will continue putting ourselves at risk and conceding stupid goals like these...

Sakho - he's a player i absolutely love, but he has been poor recently and needs to show a lot more aggression.. he's at his best when he's in beast mode, but he needs games before he turns into the beast on the pitch.

Henderson - he's clearly a player that is not fit and if i'm honest, i don't quite understand the game plan with using him when he's not fit. If he's unfit dont start him, let him recover and get fit because at the moment he's a guaranteed person to be subbed off and when you have games whereby 2 players are subbed before half time.. it's not helping...

Offline wemmick

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #3 on: February 8, 2016, 04:25:08 pm »
Not much to add to the OP. I thought our build up play was excellent for large parts of the match. We moved the ball effectively from side to side, rather than aimlessly, and penetrated their wall of defenders more easily, at the least on the eye, with a bunch of outfield grafters than in many, many matches over the last two seasons. Still missing that final ball, but I would say Klopp and Buvac have at least tactically figured out the bus in the PL. We may need better attacking personnel to develop that killer final ball in the box, but I feel good about how the coaching staff has been developing the squad. Firmino, in particular, looks the business. He has been carrying the squad of late.

I've nothing good to say about the final ten minutes, so I'll keep that largely to myself. Mignolet's days as a starter for us are surely coming to an end sooner than later. The same may be said for some of the other grafters in the squad.   

Offline redmark

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #4 on: February 8, 2016, 07:27:52 pm »
but 2-0 up at home to relegation fodder with ten minutes to go and we end 2-2 is just not acceptable.

I get that. But - despite it being such a small thing we ought take for granted - there's a positive in there; we were 2-0 up. So far this season, the only other teams we've been two goals up on at Anfield were Exeter and Villa (in September). Prior to that you have to go back to a handful of games through the decent run near the tail end of last season (working back, Newcastle, Burnley, West Ham, Leicester and Swansea). That's it, in more than a season and a half - seven league games where we've been two goals to the good at Anfield. Given that we'd failed to score in precisely half of our previous ten league games, and were again without a striker, there's a little progress there. But the after match thread, obviously, focuses on the capitulation and packing off the entire squad to the gulags.
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Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #5 on: February 8, 2016, 07:30:48 pm »
Great win, 2-0 , how we sang as we left the game!.....what!?

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #6 on: February 8, 2016, 07:36:13 pm »
Schoolboy error, Migs inability to even setup a wall correctly. Sometimes them free-kicks that bounce just before the keeper can squirm through but no excuses for positioning that wall incorrectly.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #7 on: February 8, 2016, 09:54:36 pm »
We owned the game. For me, it was just a matter of time. There was no way Sunderland could be a threat, except from set pieces. We all know any corner or freekick against us could be seen as a penalty. Other than that, it was just a matter of scoring a goal and that was game over. Actually, two goals. We got those goals. Thanks mainly to Firmino. He scored the first and pretty much gave Lallana the second. Very good to see. He's not afraid out there and you can sense the confidence is growing for him. It's come to a stage now that when he shoots and misses the goal, it still feels like that shot could have gone in. Contrast to for example Lucas where you know we won't score if he shoots (big fan of Lucas, but you know what I mean). So we got those two goals and we were crusing. No problem.

And then we began to fuck things up. As per usual. They got that set piece and naturally they scored. I wasn't even surprised, but I can't stand silly goals like that. Fair play if the opponents score like Vardy did last week. Fair play if it's a great freekick. But that one... So soft. So unnecessary.

Looking back, I think we had the wrong team from the start. Sunderland offered nothing. For us to play Can, Allen, Henderson, Milner, Lallana and Firmino felt a bit defensive. Looking back, we probably should have gone with Benteke and Firmino up front, then Ibe and Milner down the flanks and just a duo in the center. At the same time, it feels wrong to blame the line up for anything. We controlled everything, we eventually got our goals and that should have been enough.

The good news is Firmino. He's come to life and he looks like the leading player we need him to be. God knows we don't have too many of them. Then... well, it's a bit grey, isn't it? I keep hoping that we'll see players emerge as leaders. When we play like this, it shouldn't take too much to stand out as one of the better players. But behind Firmino it's grey. Except for one area. I'm sorry, but Mignolet just keeps disappointing me. Game after game. He'll make a save now and then, but then you sit there and watch Chelsea-Man U with one eye open. It doesn't take more. And you get a reminder how really good keepers play. Or you watch Arsenal and can sense the security they get from Cech. Mignolet just doesn't look particulary good at anything. He's not alone though. Toure and Sakho can't be proud of their contribution for Defoe's goal. Moreno... I like him, but a reliable defender he is not. The only one in the back five I feel I can count on is Clyne.

Really don't think the squad is all bad, but we're lacking leaders. All we have is the support players. We might have something in Firmino, but we need more than that. Much more.

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Offline mkingdon

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Re: Round Table: Liverpool 2 Sunderland 2
« Reply #8 on: February 9, 2016, 04:32:11 pm »
I get that. But - despite it being such a small thing we ought take for granted - there's a positive in there; we were 2-0 up. So far this season, the only other teams we've been two goals up on at Anfield were Exeter and Villa (in September). Prior to that you have to go back to a handful of games through the decent run near the tail end of last season (working back, Newcastle, Burnley, West Ham, Leicester and Swansea). That's it, in more than a season and a half - seven league games where we've been two goals to the good at Anfield. Given that we'd failed to score in precisely half of our previous ten league games, and were again without a striker, there's a little progress there. But the after match thread, obviously, focuses on the capitulation and packing off the entire squad to the gulags.

You're a glass half full kinda guy aren't you?  ;D

I knocked my glass over at full time and have yet to mop up the contents. Hopefully we'll see more/better progress in the next few games.