Topic: China - a Fascist State

[liverbloke]

Don't want to rile the dragon, apart from than that it's the same reason they haven't bombed us...Nukes.

yeh i was kinda being purposely provocative 

reading about china's history with japan - fuck me those japanese were real c*nts

maybe that's why china is so paranoid about foreigners

[princeoftherocks]

China:  A New World Order

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007zp0


Definitely enjoyed this.  Even had some pro-china talking heads, albeit not very convincing.

[Shankly998]

China:  A New World Order

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007zp0


Definitely enjoyed this.  Even had some pro-china talking heads, albeit not very convincing.

Continuing to make friends the world over.

A social media post from an account linked to the Chinese Communist Party has sparked controversy for appearing to mock India over its coronavirus crisis.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56963996

[farawayred]

Communism and fascism (two sides of the same authoritarian coin, really) are not necessarily ideologies, they are diseases. They had many manifestations (or rather infestations), but are not capable of surviving on their own. Much like a virus. The problem is that the ideas it "borrows" from socialism are ideologically good ones, and really appealing to many people, so, parallels are drawn for political gain where parallels don't exist. China is taking over what they consider their own domain, and no one on the world is doing anything to stop it. The new Silk Road is an integral part of that concept of dominance (wake up Europe!). They already own most of Africa and practically all of the Pacific. How many years the World did nothing about Tibet? Why would we expect the World to do anything about the Uygurs? Or Honk Kong? Or Taiwan? Nah, we will just sit back in the comfort of our homes, express our outrage about the events, and will accept them in due course. Meanwhile, China is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. And were almost going to preside over the Human Rights watchdog; fuck me!

I admit to a strong bias against communism; I grew under it and shaped my deformed view of reality. But at least I know to recognize its methods. And China is excelling in those. I ran half a world away from it, but it caught up with everyone...

[Yorkykopite]

Continuing to make friends the world over.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56963996

They need to remember where this damn thing came from. Stop eating bats guys!

Plus, when you do have a major epidemic in the making stop arresting the valiant doctors who identify it because you fear it will make China look bad.

PS China looks bad already. Genocide always looks bad. 

[Nobby Reserve]

Communism and fascism (two sides of the same authoritarian coin, really) are not necessarily ideologies, they are diseases. They had many manifestations (or rather infestations), but are not capable of surviving on their own. Much like a virus. The problem is that the ideas it "borrows" from socialism are ideologically good ones, and really appealing to many people, so, parallels are drawn for political gain where parallels don't exist. China is taking over what they consider their own domain, and no one on the world is doing anything to stop it. The new Silk Road is an integral part of that concept of dominance (wake up Europe!). They already own most of Africa and practically all of the Pacific. How many years the World did nothing about Tibet? Why would we expect the World to do anything about the Uygurs? Or Honk Kong? Or Taiwan? Nah, we will just sit back in the comfort of our homes, express our outrage about the events, and will accept them in due course. Meanwhile, China is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. And were almost going to preside over the Human Rights watchdog; fuck me!

I admit to a strong bias against communism; I grew under it and shaped my deformed view of reality. But at least I know to recognize its methods. And China is excelling in those. I ran half a world away from it, but it caught up with everyone...

Communism shouldn't mean authoritarianism and oppression. It was certainly not the aim of Marx & Engels.

That every communist regime has mutated into an oppressive hell usually starts with measures to protect the 'revolution' from counter-revolution by both domestic groups who by definition will tend to be the established wealthy & powerful; and external forces from countries ideologically wedded to capitalism.

The CCP isn't communist, though. It's best to view it as the Board of Directors of a gigantic corporation with millions of subsidiaries. The communist myth is just bullshit to keep 'the people' onside. There's at least as much wealth inequality now as there was pre-revolution. There's a financial elite who hoard power, control and money.

In fact, it's the antithesis of communism.

[killer-heels]

Continuing to make friends the world over.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56963996

For a powerful country, they are not half insecure.

[west_london_red]

For a powerful country, they are not half insecure.

Bullies often are I am told.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

For a powerful country, they are not half insecure.

They learnt off the Yanks and us Europeans.

[farawayred]

Communism shouldn't mean authoritarianism and oppression. It was certainly not the aim of Marx & Engels.

That every communist regime has mutated into an oppressive hell usually starts with measures to protect the 'revolution' from counter-revolution by both domestic groups who by definition will tend to be the established wealthy & powerful; and external forces from countries ideologically wedded to capitalism.

The CCP isn't communist, though. It's best to view it as the Board of Directors of a gigantic corporation with millions of subsidiaries. The communist myth is just bullshit to keep 'the people' onside. There's at least as much wealth inequality now as there was pre-revolution. There's a financial elite who hoard power, control and money.

In fact, it's the antithesis of communism.

George Orwell described the transition quite well in "Animal farm". Systems evolve to their respective stable equilibrium, and communism leads to that in all of its varieties. Communism doesn't exist on paper; they start as an idea and always lead down a rabbit hole. Not the least because of starting with a revolution. I would have much liked to see what would have happened with Chile, where Salvador Allende was the only democratically elected communist, but the Americans took care of that possibility. That could have been different.

As for China, North Korea, Cuba, their ruling parties are exactly what communist parties are expected to be. Regardless of what they are called, it's the way they act. It's the way we were all (on that side of the Iron Curtain) were taught in school and college. The ruling class was never meant to be equal, they were "more equal". They were the ones that can travel abroad, have foreign currency to shop inn special stores that we, the mere mortals can't sniff at. Not much difference with China.

[Sangria]

They learnt off the Yanks and us Europeans.

The post on Chinese site Weibo showed an image of a rocket launch in China alongside a photo of the bodies of Covid victims being cremated in India.

Text with it read: "Lighting a fire in China VS lighting a fire in India."

Can you show an equivalent post from the BBC or Channel 4 (our equivalent)?

[Yorkykopite]

Communism shouldn't mean authoritarianism and oppression. It was certainly not the aim of Marx & Engels.

That every communist regime has mutated into an oppressive hell usually starts with measures to protect the 'revolution' from counter-revolution by both domestic groups who by definition will tend to be the established wealthy & powerful; and external forces from countries ideologically wedded to capitalism.

The CCP isn't communist, though. It's best to view it as the Board of Directors of a gigantic corporation with millions of subsidiaries. The communist myth is just bullshit to keep 'the people' onside. There's at least as much wealth inequality now as there was pre-revolution. There's a financial elite who hoard power, control and money.

In fact, it's the antithesis of communism.

Maybe it was not the "aim" of Marx and Engels. But it certainly seems to have been the "logic" of their thought. Every movement based on Marxism, on reaching power, has produced a despotic and murderous government that cannot tolerate dissent. It's astonishing to me how blithely this fact is swept aside by the few remaining adherents of Marxism and Leninism. 'Nothing to do with us...' etc.   

In fact your 'explanation' (the real villains are the counter-revolutionaries who forced the marxists into killing everybody) is as hackneyed now as it was when it was first used. It was first used, incidentally, when Lenin and Trotsky started executing the Kronstadt socialists who thought the revolution should include the right to vote and the right to disagree with the new elite. 

As for the CCP, yes it's a capitalist party now which is run by billionaires, and is as vicious and as corrupt as ever it was. But as a communist party it also killed countless millions. In both cases one could say it was Fascist. Hence the title of this thread.

[Yorkykopite]

Communism shouldn't mean authoritarianism and oppression. It was certainly not the aim of Marx & Engels.

That every communist regime has mutated into an oppressive hell usually starts with measures to protect the 'revolution' from counter-revolution by both domestic groups who by definition will tend to be the established wealthy & powerful; and external forces from countries ideologically wedded to capitalism.

The CCP isn't communist, though. It's best to view it as the Board of Directors of a gigantic corporation with millions of subsidiaries. The communist myth is just bullshit to keep 'the people' onside. There's at least as much wealth inequality now as there was pre-revolution. There's a financial elite who hoard power, control and money.

In fact, it's the antithesis of communism.

Maybe it was not the "aim" of Marx and Engles. But it certainly seems to have been the "logic" of their thought. Every movement based on Marxism, on reaching power, has produced a despotic and murderous government that cannot tolerate dissent. It's astonishing to me how blithely this fact is swept aside by the few remaining adherents of Marxism and Leninism. 'Nothing to do with us...' etc.   

In fact your 'explanation' (the real villains are the counter-revolutionaries who forced the marxists into killing everybody) is as hackneyed now as it was when it was first used. IT was first used, incidentally, when Lenin and Trotsky started executing the Kronstadt socialists who thought the revolution should include the right to vote and the right to disagree with the new elite. 

PS Anyone who truly believes that the UK or the USA is remotely like China better go into hiding to night - and take your family. Because if the Brits are like the CCP then the secret police will already know who you are and will come a-battering at your door this evening. Do you enjoy hard labour?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Can you show an equivalent post from the BBC or Channel 4 (our equivalent)?

Talking historically

[Sangria]

Talking historically

I don't remember anything approaching it within my lifetime. The Weibo post was within the past week. Is there any substance to your claim beyond "the west is just as bad"?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I don't remember anything approaching it within my lifetime. The Weibo post was within the past week. Is there any substance to your claim beyond "the west is just as bad"?

Oh are you talking specifically about the "China" virus ?

And if it's a post on Weibo would I be ok linking posts from one of the many right wing blogging sites ?

[Sangria]

Oh are you talking specifically about the "China" virus ?

And if it's a post on Weibo would I be ok linking posts from one of the many right wing blogging sites ?

Any idea of whether the post was an op piece or a blog? Because Weibo, overall, is one of the mainstream media channels in China, with its equivalent in the UK being BBC or Channel 4. If it was from one of their paid contributors, then I've not seen anything akin to it in my lifetime from the BBC or Channel 4.

[Yorkykopite]

Oh are you talking specifically about the "China" virus ?

And if it's a post on Weibo would I be ok linking posts from one of the many right wing blogging sites ?

It's a post which originates with the Chinese government and which takes the micky out of the Indian dead.

Now it's just about conceivable, I suppose, that the BBC used to take the piss out of the Chinese dead during the devastating famines of the 'Great Leap Forward' period. Perhaps it even bragged about how nutritious the averagee British dinner was during the same period. You must have something in mind along those lines, otherwise you wouldn't have said what you said.

The floor's yours. Off you go.

[Yorkykopite]

No?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

No?

A Chinese official is what they're saying a few days after Jingping had offered his condolences,it was a shitty post but that's all it was a post on a a social media site.

If you're asking if I am referencing a BBC article then no I am not & my first post saying that they learnt from us was talking about them being insecure.

You can remember that daft twat McCain singing "Bomb,bomb,bomb,bomb Iran" right,that's just one example or an actual Gov official acting the twat for laughs,there are many such examples.

Again,it was a shitty post but that is all it was.

[Yorkykopite]

Again,it was a shitty post but that is all it was.

Just one rotten apple, eh?

Of course it isn't "all it is". It's symptomatic of something much bigger.

And I take it we all abhor the bigger thing? I mean who in their right mind would defend, or relativise, the genocide of the Uighur? 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Just one rotten apple, eh?

Of course it isn't "all it is". It's symptomatic of something much bigger.

And I take it we all abhor the bigger thing? I mean who in their right mind would defend, or relativise, the genocide of the Uighur?

Nobody.

[Yorkykopite]

Nobody.

Excellent.

[Yorkykopite]

The 'Times' today, behind the usual paywall unfortunately. Further evidence of a genocide taking places under our noses.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/extreme-drop-in-xinjiang-birth-rate-amid-claims-of-uighur-genocide-7smt8wclc?utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=newsletter_101&utm_medium=email&utm_content=101_13407559&CMP=TNLEmail_7172239_13407559_101

The birth rate across the western Chinese region of Xinjiang, home to many of the country’s repressed Uighur minority, has almost halved amid accusations of genocide against the community.

Such an extreme decline is unprecedented in the 71 years that the UN has been collecting global fertility statistics, and is even larger than falls in birth rates during the Syrian civil war and genocides in Rwanda and Cambodia, according to Nathan Ruser, an author of a report by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, a think tank.

[Broad Spectrum]

Birth rate is lower than war zones, that is absolutely horrific. Let’s carry on outsourcing supply chains to China though cause you know, it’s cheap. Despicable regime, and I think what’s most frustrating with this story is it’s been fairly well documented across the world in the media and online campaigns, yet as usual nothing is done and no action has been taken against China.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It's awful but Rwanda and Cambodia are not the best examples due to rape being used as a weapon.

[Broad Spectrum]

It's awful but Rwanda and Cambodia are not the best examples due to rape being used as a weapon.

Does it matter what the examples are? It’s the largest reduction ever recorded by the UN:

‘The birth-rate across the region fell by nearly half (48.74 percent) in the two years between 2017 and 2019...The sharp drop in birth-rates in Xinjiang (a region with a population of nearly 25 million) is proportionally the most extreme over a two-year period globally since 1950.’.

This is systematic genocide at its finest in the 21st century. Also, the population of Cambodia was <10m, whilst Rwanda was <7m at the time of their respective genocides. By contrast, the population of Xinjiang alone is ~25m with roughly 50% being Uyghur and the rest made up of other ethnic groups also impacted by these inhumane policies in recent years. The sheer number of people involved here is staggering. Worth bearing mind there are also other minority counties in China where the same is happening but numbers haven’t been officially documented.

Anyone interested here is the source of the information: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/family-deplanning-birthrates-xinjiang

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It matters when the reason why those 2 had higher levels is because of the systematic rape that went on.


We all know the reason why the birth rates are so low,it's because of the internment of vast numbers of people,there's no reason to bring up Rwanda and Cambodia but when you do then you must also mention why,not doing so is a bit sly imo.

[Yorkykopite]

It matters when the reason why those 2 had higher levels is because of the systematic rape that went on.


We all know the reason why the birth rates are so low,it's because of the internment of vast numbers of people,there's no reason to bring up Rwanda and Cambodia but when you do then you must also mention why,not doing so is a bit sly imo.

That's a very strange post.

There was an obvious and respectable reason the writer brought up Cambodia and Rwanda as a comparison. That's because these atrocities are commonly defined today as genocides. Therefore they provide a legitimate form of measurement to assess what is happening to the Uighur as we speak.  There is nothing deceitful or nefarious about the comparison and, frankly, I'm amazed anyone would want to argue there was.

As for your contention that, but for mass rape, the birthrate during the Cambodian and Rwandan genocides would have reached equally low depths as it is now doing because of the Chinese Fascist policy towards the Uighur, all I'd say is that it's the sort of extraordinary claim that needs evidence.*

It is very hard to see genocide while it is happening. Rwandas indeed was a case in point. The world pretty much turned its eyes away from the whole catastrophe. Only later did it blink and say "God, how did we miss that?" I think this is now happening with the Uighur, which is dreadful.

*Disclaimer to the hard of hearing: this is not to say (i) mass rape did not happen in both those genocides and (ii) that I approve of mass rape (iii) That I take lightly the problems associated with loss of hearing.   

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It even has a name "Genocidal Rape" & i Cambodia when a member of the Khmer Rouge took a shine to a woman they simply killed the husband and demanded her hand in marriage,if she refused she was then gang raped over and over,many refused but many were far too traumatised and simply gave in (any sex from that marriage is then rape).

I'm not sure if this is new news to you but one of the results of a man shooting his load into a female is pregnancy.


None of this is a secret so I'm not sure why it has a couple of you so upset that I brought it up.

Well I am,so China bad Mkay.

[Yorkykopite]

It even has a name "Genocidal Rape" & i Cambodia when a member of the Khmer Rouge took a shine to a woman they simply killed the husband and demanded her hand in marriage,if she refused she was then gang raped over and over,many refused but many were far too traumatised and simply gave in (any sex from that marriage is then rape).

I'm not sure if this is new news to you but one of the results of a man shooting his load into a female is pregnancy.


None of this is a secret so I'm not sure why it has a couple of you so upset that I brought it up.

Well I am,so China bad Mkay.

Another strange post. You seem very angry.

[farawayred]

I'd bring another point to this discussion - what's the Turkish position? The Uigurs are ethnic Tirkic people, aren't they? Turkey has been very loud to step in for the Azeris against the Armenians, they've always defended the other Turkic people all over the world, except when it comes to China. Erdogan has been pretty quick to shake a stick at Europe, the US and even Russia when it's inn his interests, but the silence is nnow deafening... And I get it, it's a strange position, because if they admit to a genocide occurring in China, they would have to admit ti the same done by them against the Armenians, Bulgarians, and across the Balkans during the Ottoman rule. But we are supposed to learn from history...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Another strange post. You seem very angry.

No,not today at least,hopefully not tomorrow either 

Not my problem that you read strange in every post that you think is attacking you.


A Demographer on twitter has basically said that he shouldn't have used Cambodia or Bosnia (guessing that was behind the paywall) as the birth data  for both are based on wrongly reached estimates,he has gone into lots of detail including that the graph Ruser used for Cambodian birth rates is based on an unpublished manuscript from 2013 (even the UN used dodgy estimates).


But he,like me also said that the general article about the Chinese is fine (they're not even hiding the figures),it's just that the comparisons are not.


Don't get angry,I'm just a messenger.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I'd bring another point to this discussion - what's the Turkish position? The Uigurs are ethnic Tirkic people, aren't they? Turkey has been very loud to step in for the Azeris against the Armenians, they've always defended the other Turkic people all over the world, except when it comes to China. Erdogan has been pretty quick to shake a stick at Europe, the US and even Russia when it's inn his interests, but the silence is nnow deafening... And I get it, it's a strange position, because if they admit to a genocide occurring in China, they would have to admit ti the same done by them against the Armenians, Bulgarians, and across the Balkans during the Ottoman rule. But we are supposed to learn from history...

The Demographer I've just been reading made the point that a better example would have been what the Danes did in Greenland & had Nathan Ruser used that it could have opened up a wider discussion about other instances that are generally ignored because of the perpetrators.

[Sangria]

I'd bring another point to this discussion - what's the Turkish position? The Uigurs are ethnic Tirkic people, aren't they? Turkey has been very loud to step in for the Azeris against the Armenians, they've always defended the other Turkic people all over the world, except when it comes to China. Erdogan has been pretty quick to shake a stick at Europe, the US and even Russia when it's inn his interests, but the silence is nnow deafening... And I get it, it's a strange position, because if they admit to a genocide occurring in China, they would have to admit ti the same done by them against the Armenians, Bulgarians, and across the Balkans during the Ottoman rule. But we are supposed to learn from history...

China also has economic heft that's not significantly impacted by Turkey's strategic position. China has the advantage of having stealthily achieved a position of influence without having been countered along the way, whereby it now has a finger in a lot of pies, and it does not have any scruples about exercising this influence. Russia, while also possessing zero scruples, does not have this extensive reach. Europe and the US are liberal democracies.

That's why countries that are forever pointing fingers at the west will say nothing about China. See also Pakistan and their concern for fellow Muslims in Kashmir, Palestine and Europe, and their non-existent concern for fellow Muslims in Xinjiang.

[Yorkykopite]

The Demographer I've just been reading made the point that a better example would have been what the Danes did in Greenland & had Nathan Ruser used that it could have opened up a wider discussion about other instances that are generally ignored because of the perpetrators.

It's hard to know what you mean since you haven't cited the demographer you've been reading or her works.

I know barely anything about Greenland so may be missing something massive here, but according to wikipedia the Inuit form 85-90% of Greenland's population. If a comparable genocide to the one currently been inflicted on the Uighur by the Chinese had happened in Greenland wouldn't its population be mainly Danish by now?

There is this horrrifying episode though, which I didn't know about. Do you mean this?  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55238090. Those 22 Inuit children taken by the Danish government in the 1950s and raised as 'little Danes' is, I guess, a small-scale version of what is happening in Xinjiang right now.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

His and you can find it the same way that I did by going to the twitter account of the author that wrote article you posted 2 paragraphs to and searching his timeline.

I have them saved and would post the links but I am feeling strangely angry. 

[farawayred]

His and you can find it the same way that I did by going to the twitter account of the author that wrote article you posted 2 paragraphs to and searching his timeline.

I have them saved and would post the links but I am feeling strangely angry. 

Posting those would be a nice gesture for those dinosaurs like me who don't have any social media account...

[Yorkykopite]

Whereangelsplay:

If you don't want to post the actual link, could you at least tell us the demographer's name so that it becomes easier for other posters to search your claim?

(As per Rushian's guidelines at the top of the News page).

[Yorkykopite]

The unknown demographer has still not appeared. So while we wait, I thought this might be useful. It's an AP report from last year which describes the Chinese policy of forced sterilisation, forced abortion, and forced IUD insertion. All backed up of course by separation of the sexes and mass incarceration.   

https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c