Author Topic: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?  (Read 6623 times)

Offline Rushian

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Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« on: October 5, 2004, 03:41:26 pm »
In a fashion typical for most teams with new managers and turnover of playing staff, and without £100 mil to spend on international replacements, Liverpool under Rafael Benitez have struggled to perform consistently on the pitch. For every fine performance like the home wins over West Brom, Norwich and Monaco, there has been a disjointed, distracted, error-filled poor showing like the losses to United and Olympiakos, and the draw against Spurs.

New managers bring new systems, and one of Rafa’s innovations has been the lightning rod for much criticism from the supporters, the tactic of defending set-pieces by using zonal rather than man-to-man marking. Given that Liverpool have conceded far too many goals from set-pieces, two to Mikael Silvestre in the loss to United and the only goal in the loss to Olympiakos, at first glance it would appear that it is the zonal-marking concept which Rafa has tried to instill that is at fault. But as with so many first impressions and emotional conclusions, the truth behind the first impulse is a much more complicated one.

“They (or more damningly ‘we’) just aren’t used to it…”

This is the statement that appears at some point in the conversation in the pub, in the chat room surrounded by whatever alternative text obscenities the poster can get away with, or on message boards with slack monitors. The reference is to Rafa asking Liverpool’s players to zonal mark the opposition at set pieces, when they are “used” to man-marking.

There are many things wrong with this particular line of reasoning, but let’s start with the non-football bits first. Liverpool aren’t used to doing this, so they shouldn’t. Boiled down to its essence, this is the “logic” behind the criticism of Rafa’s zonal defending tactics.

In other words, we should have kept Gerrard Houllier.   If you follow the line of reasoning, such as it is, in the “not used to it” argument, this is where you end up. 

What Liverpool were used to doing was camping out on the 18 yard line and hoofing the ball forward at the earliest possible opportunity for the strikers to chase. I think it fair to point out that the individuals criticizing zonal defending at set-pieces are probably some of the same people singing the praises of the new pass-and-move attacking football which Rafa has tried, with success against West Brom, Norwich and Monaco in particular, to instill. How wonderful things would be if Rafa managed Liverpool like a game of Championship Manager; just programme the tactics, and voila, Premier League title. 

Reality, as we all know in our less emotional moments, is somewhat different. The changes Benitez is trying to make won’t all come at once, and some might not come off at all. Which creates a nice intro to the next point; that making a judgement about what works, or does not work, after ten competitive matches, including clean sheets against Graz, West Brom and Norwich, is thinking of the emotional rather than rational variety.

In the aftermath of the losses to United and Olympiakos, when the general despair and anger were at extremely high levels and all the talk is of losses to the Great Enemy or the collapse of the Champions League campaign, the instinct of a passionate supporter is to find a release for the frustration. I would submit that this is a large part of what is behind the attack on the zonal defending at set pieces. Three goals conceded, two losses, all goals scored at re-starts, new zonal defending system brought in by new manager, AHA! 

Hands up, you’ve been there, haven’t you?

What is very strange about the “not used to it” attacks on zonal defending is that British, and Premier League defenses in general, are exclusively of the flat-back four variety. In other words, they are zonal rather than man-marking systems. The same principles from zonal defending during open play are the very ones which apply during zonal defending at set-pieces. What those of the “not used to it” ilk seem to be saying is that the players don’t know how to defend in the way that has been popular in Britain since Doug Ellis was born; zonal defending is how to defend, if you believe in the proper British way of defending. What has inevitably happened is that mistakes have been made in “picking up” attacking players, or rather not picking them up, and these are mistakes that you see in open play every Saturday.   Because it is new to the players to defend in this manner at set-pieces, there are inevitably, and tragically, going to be some mistakes. But that does not indict the system as a failure in general.

Also, the “we’re not used to it” line of thought does not address the problem, it merely excuses it. What seems to be behind the fear of zonal marking is that the players won’t be able to understand it, so let’s just go back to that with which they are comfortable.

With this kind of attitude, it will be a very long season.

Rafa was brought in to change things, to shake the club from the torpor that had set in at the end of the Houllier years, and if he is to fulfill this mandate, there will be tactical demands placed on the players, demands which will force players outside their comfort zone before they are able to adapt to the changes.

Player development is how this is referred to in coaching manuals. This is on the whole a good thing, despite the inevitable hard times that always occur during the adaptation period. Benitez’s Valencia teams were tactically brilliant, flexible enough to change tactics mid-match as they imposed their will and control of the match on their opposition.

It would be quite nice to see a bit of this at Anfield.

Finally, a more interesting line of inquiry than the tired, “not used to it” model might be: Why does Rafa insist on zonal defending at set pieces?

The answer lies again in tactical considerations. If you defend set-pieces zonally, you have control over which defenders occupy certain parts of the pitch. This enables the placement of the better headers of the ball in the areas judged to be likely targets of the re-start, and also enables a team to keep its shape better, which might give rise to counter-attacking options on a change of possession. Defending man-to-man automatically takes the defending team out of its defensive shape until the set-piece has been defended, and it takes time to recover position after the set-piece has been cleared.

In many ways, the central issue seems to be control. It appears that Rafa’s preference for zonal defending lies in his desire to be in control of as much of the match as possible, or to deny his opposition the chances to control events. The new manager is a thinker and a tactician. In the past, this desire to establish control at matches has served El Jefe Benitez quite well.

Rafa’s Valencia teams were able to both defend zonally at set-pieces, in a very miserly manner, and also to possess the ball and move it quickly about the pitch.  The results of these policies are there for all to see; a UEFA Cup title and two Primera titles. And while it may be the case that the personnel at Liverpool are not suited to play in this manner, let’s give a manager known for his thoroughness and attention to detail a bit more time to see how the pieces fit together.

© Bill Urban 2004
« Last Edit: October 5, 2004, 05:52:24 pm by Rushian »
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Offline rob1966

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #1 on: October 5, 2004, 03:46:56 pm »
Loved in on Sunday when Andy Gray was blabbing on about "don't like zonal blah blah blah, man markings a much better system, works better etc etc" then had a go at John Terry (man marking) when he lost Sammi at a corner!!
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Offline Aidan_B

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #2 on: October 5, 2004, 03:48:03 pm »
I prefer zonal defending when I play.  They'll get used to it, and did well at Chelsea before a well worked free kick. 



PS I thought we lost at Bolton ?

Offline nige

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #3 on: October 5, 2004, 03:58:28 pm »
Good article. But in order  to give a complete picture would need to consider a full risk analysis of making the switch when we  have.
Just because players (and fans) aren't used to it doesn't mean we shouldn't make the switch, yes, agreed.
It may well be better, yes, agreed,  but  when , and at what price ?
I'm not saying Rafa & his coaches haven't considered  the  full risk analysis, nor am I saying that the supporters shouldn't have faith - they have no other choice - just saying an article giving the full picture needs to take that into account.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #4 on: October 5, 2004, 04:15:38 pm »
Very well-written and interesting - on a subject I'm actually sick to the back teeth of. The piece is also very biased - no look at why so many pros and ex-pros (in this country at least) hate zonal marking from set pieces.

There is no discussion of man-to-man marking, nor a comparison of the pros and cons of either system. If Rafa trusts zonal, fine, and it will take time to get it working. But English football (as he and his coaching staff have noted) is far more about dead ball situations than in Spain (where even the more direct teams are not as direct as those here). He has to get it right, as Liverpool will be put under more pressure in this respect than Valencia ever were. I'd like to see zonal marking work in the English game, but has anyone had success with it here before?

It seemed that we mixed zonal with two or three others man-to-man marking against Chelsea. Either way, we defended dead balls better than of late, bar one sneaky low on.

I think people have been correct to suggest some reservations - it doesn't mean they don't trust Rafa, just that people want convincing by the system. The comparison between zonal in open and play and at set pieces is in British football is also interesting, but doesn't work as the two are very different in exectution.

For me, the jury is out, but I'm happy to see if the coaching staff and players can make it work. The loss of key headers of the ball at defensive set pieces (Heskey sold, Gerrard injured) hasn't helped either.

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #5 on: October 5, 2004, 04:36:52 pm »
I prefer zonal defending when I play. They'll get used to it, and did well at Chelsea before a well worked free kick.



PS I thought we lost at Bolton ?

Aidan_B:

you're right, we did lose at Bolton; I chose to refer only to the United and Olympiakos losses in the article since the goals conceded in those matches all came from set-pieces, rather than the Pederson cross which led to Davies's goal in the loss against Bolton.


Good article. But in order to give a complete picture would need to consider a full risk analysis of making the switch when we have.
Just because players (and fans) aren't used to it doesn't mean we shouldn't make the switch, yes, agreed.
It may well be better, yes, agreed, but when , and at what price ?
I'm not saying Rafa & his coaches haven't considered the full risk analysis, nor am I saying that the supporters shouldn't have faith - they have no other choice - just saying an article giving the full picture needs to take that into account.


Nige:

if i understand your question of risk analysis, then my answer would be that I support Rafa making all the changes he feels necessary from the beginning of his tenure, with the understood consequence that there will be mistakes, like the ones which cost goals against United and Olympiakos, and Chelsea as well, although whether Cole's goal was due to a zonal marking failure seems unclear to me.

You are correct in pointing out that my article does not address in enough detail that using this different system from the start of the Premier League season may cost Liverpool points in the table and may well result in the side being out of the running before the end of the year.

What I was trying to get across was that it was going to take time for all of Rafa's changes to be judged a success, or a failure, and that blaming one of his tactics for our early season struggles might be missing the point.

even as we were dropping points...

You may well be correct in raising the idea that gradual changes in playing style, rather than implementing them all at once, as Rafa has done, might be a more cost-efficient method in terms of points in the League table.

Very well-written and interesting - on a subject I'm actually sick to the back teeth of. The piece is also very biased - no look at why so many pros and ex-pros (in this country at least) hate zonal marking from set pieces.

There is no discussion of man-to-man marking, nor a comparison of the pros and cons of either system. If Rafa trusts zonal, fine, and it will take time to get it working. But English football (as he and his coaching staff have noted) is far more about dead ball situations than in Spain (where even the more direct teams are not as direct as those here). He has to get it right, as Liverpool will be put under more pressure in this respect than Valencia ever were. I'd like to see zonal marking work in the English game, but has anyone had success with it here before?

It seemed that we mixed zonal with two or three others man-to-man marking against Chelsea. Either way, we defended dead balls better than of late, bar one sneaky low on.

I think people have been correct to suggest some reservations - it doesn't mean they don't trust Rafa, just that people want convincing by the system. The comparison between zonal in open and play and at set pieces is in British football is also interesting, but doesn't work as the two are very different in exectution.

For me, the jury is out, but I'm happy to see if the coaching staff and players can make it work. The loss of key headers of the ball at defensive set pieces (Heskey sold, Gerrard injured) hasn't helped either.

Paul:

my apologies for causing additional discomfort for your back teeth... :)

it is true that I didn't look at why zonal marking at set pieces is not highly regarded by British professionals.  What I was trying to do was raise the idea that there was another way to look at defending set pieces, since majority opinion seemed to be against doing so zonally.

I do think the mention of helping a team keep its shape and counter-attacking out of zonal defending after an opposition set piece was a mention of a pro of zonal defending, and also the placement of players such as Hyppia in a set part of the field as a result of defending zonally was also a pro of the system.  You are right when you point out that I did not properly address the pros or cons of man-marking.  The article was written from the perspective of zonal cons aplenty floating about in the pubs and on the internet.

The bias came about because so much of the prevalent opinion weighs in favour of man-to-man marking.

I also thought we had a line of three or four at the corners and free-kick against Chelsea, and had other players back in man-marking roles against Chelsea, a mixed rather than pure zonal system;  for example, Cisse came back to help defend re-starts, which was different from previous matches.

The article was submitted before the Chelsea match, so there are no references to the events during that game.

Bill
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #6 on: October 5, 2004, 04:47:09 pm »
The article was written from the perspective of zonal cons aplenty floating about in the pubs and on the internet.

The bias came about because so much of the prevalent opinion weighs in favour of man-to-man marking.

I also thought we had a line of three or four at the corners and free-kick against Chelsea, and had other players back in man-marking roles against Chelsea, a mixed rather than pure zonal system;  for example, Cisse came back to help defend re-starts, which was different from previous matches.

The article was submitted before the Chelsea match, so there are no references to the events during that game.


All fair comments, thanks for taking the time to explain them. I enjoyed the article, I was just past my tolerance level on the subject. I'm off for some fillings!  ;D

Offline rob1966

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #7 on: October 5, 2004, 05:29:47 pm »
It’s a different stick for the media to beat us with now that they don’t have the home form to go on about.

My own simplistic view is that zonal is possibly better (never thought about it before until now).In a man to man situation, defenders get dragged all over the place and if the defender is watching the player not the ball, his reaction once the ball is struck is going to be slower and can end up, as Sami did to Terry on Sunday, being left for dead. How many times, after a goal has gone in, have you seen defenders turn and go “who was marking him, he was your man etc etc”. Plus,if your man is on the edge of the box, you end up going towards your own goal, restricting where you can clear the ball to and risking corners and own goals. In zonal, I feel a solid keeper is required. If the defenders starting position is around the 6 yard line,any high balls that are delivered into his area that he can get a run onto, he should deal with. However, if it’s a ball he has to jump for without moving, then the keeper should’ve picked up the flight and should then come and either claim or clear the ball. Employing “blockers” to disrupt the movement of players who start at the edge of the box should assist the defence too.

It’s a system Rafa uses, knows has worked, so he keep at it until they get it right.
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Offline Aidan_B

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #8 on: October 5, 2004, 05:44:52 pm »


Aidan_B:

you're right, we did lose at Bolton; I chose to refer only to the United and Olympiakos losses in the article since the goals conceded in those matches all came from set-pieces, rather than the Pederson cross which led to Davies's goal in the loss against Bolton.

I just meant in your first paragraph you refered to a draw.  Just a minor detail, enjoyed the article.

Offline nige

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #9 on: October 5, 2004, 05:59:38 pm »

I support Rafa making all the changes he feels necessary from the beginning of his tenure, with the understood consequence that there will be mistakes, like the ones which cost goals against United and Olympiakos, and Chelsea as well, although whether Cole's goal was due to a zonal marking failure seems unclear to me.

You are correct in pointing out that my article does not address in enough detail that using this different system from the start of the Premier League season may cost Liverpool points in the table and may well result in the side being out of the running before the end of the year.

What I was trying to get across was that it was going to take time for all of Rafa's changes to be judged a success, or a failure, and that blaming one of his tactics for our early season struggles might be missing the point.

even as we were dropping points...

You may well be correct in raising the idea that gradual changes in playing style, rather than implementing them all at once, as Rafa has done, might be a more cost-efficient method in terms of points in the League table.


Superb response - good on you !

The more I think about it the more I just want to go with Rafa's  flow and say sod the dropped points, it's a season of rebuilding, one step back (might as well get it over with, given that we had virtually no pre-season)  & at least five  forward ....

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #10 on: October 5, 2004, 09:59:26 pm »
this zone, that zone, its not about tactics, the problem is the player who attacks the ball, if he doesn't get it, thats the problem. we've had numerous problems at set pieces over the seasons, and now with some new players, players playing new position, you'll always have this problem, but its down to the player to attack the ball, a good goalkeeper is no1 priority, he can take a load of pressure, lets hope kirks can fulfill that...
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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #11 on: October 6, 2004, 12:54:44 pm »


 In zonal, I feel a solid keeper is required.



a good goalkeeper is no1 priority,


rob1966 and docker:

a similar perspective from both of you, and a point i neglected to mention.

we looked much more comfortable at the back against Chelsea, simply because Carragher and Hyppia did not feel it necessary to retreat into their six-yard box to head away every single ball, as they obviously have to do if Dudek is in goal.

mind you, i thought Kirkland came haring off his line too far a few times :o, but still...

we'll be much more solid and confident if Kirkland plays consistently.

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Offline rob1966

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #12 on: October 6, 2004, 01:44:26 pm »

we looked much more comfortable at the back against Chelsea, simply because Carragher and Hyppia did not feel it necessary to retreat into their six-yard box to head away every single ball, as they obviously have to do if Dudek is in goal.

mind you, i thought Kirkland came haring off his line too far a few times :o, but still...

we'll be much more solid and confident if Kirkland plays consistently.

Bill

Think Kirkland will settle down once he's had a few games. Don't think Carra has any confidence at all in Dudek. Saw an incident in the second half v Man City where a deep cross came in that Carra put out for a corner, when he could've left it. He immediately started screaming at Dudek cos he hadn't had a shout. I'd love to see Jerzy get his form back, he's never been the same since he had that bad time in Japan 2002.
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Offline Rushian

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #13 on: October 6, 2004, 03:26:45 pm »
saw Valencia play under Benitez using the same defensive system and Canizares was always very positive coming off the lne.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #14 on: October 6, 2004, 03:41:40 pm »
saw Valencia play under Benitez using the same defensive system and Canizares was always very positive coming off the lne.

It makes a big difference. If a keeper is 6ft 6 (in Kirky's case) then you can add an extra three feet in arm-span (and then there's the leap), meaning he is the best candidate to take any cross. You don't want him coming out like David James (i.e. too far, towards the edge of the box) but a keeper should command the first 8 yards at least.

If he stands on his line a keeper can do little with any bullet header unless it's aimed directly at him. On his line, a keeper is doing next to nothing.

Offline Ian-TN

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #15 on: October 6, 2004, 03:56:03 pm »
Well written piece mate.

Have been a critic of zonal marking at set pieces meself cos it ain't the way I've played. It ain't a way I have ever, if am honest, thought of doing at set pieces. Zonal marking in open play, fine. Obviously yer don't want yer centre half rushing out into midfield cos their striker drops that deep. Let a midfielder pick him up. But I have always been of the belief that yer best header of the ball marks their best. The idea of allowing this not to take place to me is a strange one, and one that doesn't make complete sense.

BUT I haven't won anything as a top level manager. I wasn't in the running for the job here, let alone given the job, and there are reasons behind that. If Rafa thinks it'll work then he gets me full support in inplementing it, even though I don't like it.

As with most of the things he's trying to change within the side it will take time to see the full effect of the change. If it's still like this at this time next year then we probably would need to look at it again, cos no change in a year must mean something ain't right with it.

We all have views on whether it's a good idea in principle or not, but saying it WONT work is too far. No it hasn't yet, but neither has our attacking performances away from home. does that mean they never will either?
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #16 on: October 6, 2004, 04:58:13 pm »
We all have views on whether it's a good idea in principle or not, but saying it WONT work is too far. No it hasn't yet, but neither has our attacking performances away from home. does that mean they never will either?

That's pretty much what I feel. I don't like zonal marking from set pieces (at present), but it's up to Rafa to prove to doubters that it works. Then the discussion ends.

If he can't make it work, he needs to change it, but we need to give it time first.

Anyway, I don't like to talk about zonal marking...  :P

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #17 on: October 6, 2004, 05:09:22 pm »
saw Valencia play under Benitez using the same defensive system and Canizares was always very positive coming off the lne.

i do think that Kirkland, again if he can stay fit, will improve us tremendously, but when the rumours about Canizares coming to Anfield were floating around, i broke habit and discipline and actually got my hopes up.  i think he's better than Casillas, more solid and dependable, and very confident about when to come off the line...


If he stands on his line a keeper can do little with any bullet header unless it's aimed directly at him. On his line, a keeper is doing next to nothing.

and that's been my major criticism of Dudek.  particularly because there are so many balls a keeper must come for in the Premiership...

Well written piece mate.

 ;D cheers, kind sir...


We all have views on whether it's a good idea in principle or not, but saying it WONT work is too far. No it hasn't yet, but neither has our attacking performances away from home. does that mean they never will either?

might be one of the wisest posts i've read in a while.

just going to take some time.

we are used to success, so taking that step back is tough on some of the supporters, but i always think that we are hard enough to gut it out and wait for Rafa's changes to develop.

keeps me going during matches like ManU, Olympiakos, etc.

Bill
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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2004, 02:00:17 pm »
To me letting any powerful forward steal a march on you in attacking a corner/free kick sounds like a recipe for disater.
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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #19 on: November 8, 2004, 09:59:54 pm »
the zone fell asleep saturday.
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Re: Zonal defending: Problem or convenient excuse?
« Reply #20 on: November 9, 2004, 12:04:07 am »
the zone fell asleep saturday.

The whole team did.

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