Author Topic: The tide is turning (by john_mac)  (Read 19458 times)

Offline john_mac

  • The Scouse Confucius
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,669
  • Only got 3 bullets and there's 4 of Motley Crew
The tide is turning (by john_mac)
« on: December 15, 2003, 12:13:44 pm »
Saturday was terrible. The first half was as bad as anything I can remember; as bad as Bolton and Bristol City, if a bit less dramatic. The thought of the players that started without Steven Gerrard is a nightmare; similar to Souness’s team without Fowler, it just does not bear thinking about. Seven, possibly eight of the players let us down miserably, and why we went into the game without Pongolle is beyond me. With two big clumsy centre backs surely his pace may have exposed them?

Perhaps the most worrying sight was two players chosen on the bench at a cost of £10 Million, neither deemed good enough to enter the fray in a game which had seen our worst performance in a long, long time. Both players' preferred position is middle of midfield and watching Danny Murphy tamely give the ball away time after time after time, it is mystifying how he lasted ninety minutes.

I’m not going to change my beliefs based on Saturday and I’m not going  to make any rash statements calling for the managers head but to say that it was a low-point is to say the very, very least. How the likes of Murphy, Diouf and Riise can walk away from a performance like that is beyond me, it really is. I know that people will say that the manager signed two of those three players and extended the contract of the other, but does anyone really believe that any of them has not shown enough before for us and Gerard to expect more of them?

I don’t know where we go from here I really don’t, I feel that low. It is clear that some players have neither the heart nor the desire to play for Liverpool and something has to be done and done quickly to arrest the decline, and even taking into account the injuries there is a decline. I’m made up to see Stephen Gerrard saying that he will have to think about leaving Anfield if we are not in the Champions League. If we are not a top four team then we are not good enough for the likes of Gerrard, Owen, Kirkland and Kewell.

The tide seems to have turned against the manager, perhaps irreversibly. The incessant booing his appearance on the Sandon television brought was a complete embarrassment. Like it or not, Souness never received the vile abuse that I heard Gerard receive on Saturday. Like him or not, I doubt anybody would deny his passion for Liverpool Football Club and I don’t think he deserves that. Of course Gerard must take his share of the blame for our position, and at least a share for Saturday's debacle. To lose would have been bad if not a disaster, but to lose in such a heartless, incompetent and spiritless manner was nothing short of a disgrace.

I genuinely believe that the manager can get over this but, if I’m honest, would not have been surprised to see him resign yesterday, I’m not sure how many days like Saturday he can survive, I don’t know how many days like Saturday that I can survive. There is no way he can unless he gets the support and effort from everybody at the football club: fans, officials, coaching staff and especially the players he has invested his time, beliefs and heart in; players, some very talented, who are patently letting down everybody associated with Liverpool Football Club.

Saturday will not be easy and I hope that everybody at Wolverhampton knows what it is about, the scene of one of Liverpool Football Club's greatest triumphs and a great evening to be a scouser, is again a place that will become an important, if not integral part of our future. I really do wonder if Houllier can survive another crushing blow against the club nestled at the bottom of the table, but I can’t help but wonder about what type of support will be witnessed in the arena which once saw one of the best away supports any ground has ever seen in this country.

I hope that Gerard can turn things around but have to admit that for the first time I have real doubts about him being given time to do so by the board. It has become increasingly obvious that the tide may not just be turning but may have turned amongst the fans, not just the internet idiots or the 606 gobshites but amongst a sizable majority of match-going fans. Like it or not there are clearly many people who think that Gerard has gone as far as he can, Parry, Moores and even Gerard himself must be aware of this, and the pressure is now on the powers-that-be on the Liverpool board to either have the courage of their convictions or seek a new direction. I cannot help but think that Parry’s own fortunes are inextricably linked to those of the manager.

It is a difficult and testing time to be a Red, on a morning with gleeing Toffees, enthusing at our result and the future of our manager far more than they are ever interested in their own.

Whatever happens and however the board and manager react to things, I know that some of the things I’ve heard about a man who undoubtedly cares deeply about Liverpool Football Club, its fans and its fortunes has been completely out of order.

It's not a time for the faint hearted.

YNWA

© john_mac 2003
« Last Edit: December 18, 2003, 07:48:32 am by Rushian »
We'll See Things They'll Never See

Offline Tetti

  • RAWK Agony Aunt. Has a thing for gay singers...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,525
  • When you walk....
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2003, 12:17:57 pm »
Brilliant John!
Never give up

Offline Rushian

  • Blanco y en botella
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,184
  • ¡No Pasarán!
    • Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2003, 12:19:58 pm »
great piece john
If you're going to sign up on Betfair and fancy getting a free £25 on sign-up then use my refer code 749DCNQGK and I'll also get a £25 bonus ;)

Offline wellsie82

  • Where's me tractorrrrrrrrr?
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,799
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2003, 12:21:00 pm »
spot on with that

it hurts right now and i get the impression it's going to hurt more in the future before the pain is eased

tough times ahead for sure
the best cashback site on the net.... Click here to get signed up

Offline redmonkey

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 749
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2003, 12:21:49 pm »
Excellent post - there were some shocking performances

I actually think that Diao has shown that he is a decent player (he was excellent in the first half against Arsenal until he seemed to run out of steam) But by playing him in so many different positions he seems to have lost confidence

In regards to Cheyrou, he has been quoted recently about his determination to prove himself and Houllier has recently said he won't sanction his transfer in January

With Murphy and Diouf having shockers he could do worse than at least bring him off the bench

Offline Old-Scallywag

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,275
  • un hincha de Liverpool
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2003, 12:29:32 pm »
The turn around of this board is evidence of the attitude change. I never thought some of the people on here would come out with what they have said this weekend and  from being in the majority on here I now feel in the minority.
This message board wasn't around in the Souness days so I can give no written evidence or comparison but I can tell you now I think the division between the fans has reached that point. This will have a bearing on what the board think and unless there is a startling change in our fortune I sense that Le Boss is in danger.

Strangely enough times like this make me want to get behind the Reds more and not desert them in their time of need. That's what I intend to do now.
Then again unconditional support is a much frowned upon thing these days so I'd best not admit to it  :-X   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2003, 01:53:13 pm by old-scallywag »
Though I know I’ll never lose affection
For people and things that went before
I know I’ll often stop and think about them

Offline Bren

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2003, 12:30:07 pm »
STAND UP GERARD HOULLIER

seems so long ago now  :(
Stevie, Boma Ye

Offline connaught

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Justice for the 96
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2003, 12:31:33 pm »
Good post, am hurting too.

Very sad to hear the booing in the sandon, I am hurting too, but would never boo my beloved reds.

YNWA

Offline Rashid

  • 99% of posts are bullshit, the other 1% get deleted. Unloved, unwashed, and untidy.
  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
  • Resident Dog
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2003, 12:32:07 pm »
The tide is indeed turning not just amongst match going fans - many of whom who have wanted him out for ages - but amongst genuinely 100% loyal fans like you John and others that I know. I have a mate who is so pro-GH he thinks GH is the new Shankly and he even says that maybe GH needs to have think about where he is taking the club and whether some of the players are good enough. He still wants Gh to be given till the end of 2004!

A week ago he had an outburst at the players for the poor performance against Bolton - yet - yesterday he had Heskey, Riise, Diouf, Murphy, etc all in the team - back in action - all is forgiven. The players now know that whatever GH does he has nowhere else to go because of the injuries. Some of those players need to be shot for this because GH does not deserve for them to do this to him. The likes of Heskey and Murphy have built their careers from GH's loyalty - their efforts on Saturday were a disgrace.

It is no secret that I have wanted him out for a long time now, my reasons being that we need to win the league, and GH is not capable of doing so - simple but real. The thing I find most suprising is that GH shows no intent of leaving which again shows me arrogance, a man who just shrugs his shoulders and points to the injuries. The excuses are the same, the performances are the same and the fans are restless.

I am proud of GH and what he has done to the club, I am proud of our board and their loyalty to the manager. I am proud of the fact that we do not sack our managers, I think GH is testing that philosophy.

It would be Houllier's biggest gift to the fans if he left with dignity intact (unlike Souness) and if he left before being pushed. I see no point in delaying the inevitable.

Offline Rushian

  • Blanco y en botella
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,184
  • ¡No Pasarán!
    • Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2003, 12:35:53 pm »
"The thing I find most suprising is that GH shows no intent of leaving which again shows me arrogance, a man who just shrugs his shoulders and points to the injuries."

Fuck off with that Rash - it's just not needed. You have in the past claimed that GH offered to resign after the Birmingham game last year so what is it - he's too arrogant to go or he offered to go? Show some consistency.
If you're going to sign up on Betfair and fancy getting a free £25 on sign-up then use my refer code 749DCNQGK and I'll also get a £25 bonus ;)

Offline MichaelA

  • MasterBaker, honey-trapper and 'concerned neighbour'. Beyond The Pale. Vermin on the ridiculous. Would love to leave Ashley Cole gasping for air. Dupe Snoop Extraordinaire. RAWK MARTYR #1. The proud owner of a new lower case a. Mickey Two Sheds.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 29,365
  • At the Academy
  • Super Title: MichaelA
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2003, 12:36:34 pm »
Of course Gerard must take his share of the blame for our position, and at least a share for Saturday debacle, to lose would have been bad if not a disaster, but to lose in such a heartless, incompetent and spiritless manner was nothing short of a disgrace.

I genuinely believe that the manager can get over this but, if I’m honest, would not have been surprised to see him resign yesterday, I’m not sure how many days like Saturday he can survive, I don’t know how many days like Saturday that I can survive. There is no way he can unless he gets the support and effort from everybody at the football club fans, officials, coaching staff and especially the players he has invested his time, beliefs and heart in, players, some very talented, who are patently letting down everybody associated with Liverpool Football Club.


John, I can feel the pain in every sentence. My real concern now is that the team are not playing for the shirt/club/fans because they actively do not want to play for the manager. There does seem to be a collective decision to just give up the ghost and wait for time to take it's toll. We have seen this happen before at other clubs, and now it is happening at ours.

It hurts.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2003, 12:38:23 pm by MichaelA »

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

  • The name's Hall... Jonathan Hall. aka DangerPaddy. Olores de cebollas. Carly Cole Stalker. Likes to drink at Bar Fanny.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,048
  • Tapas y Cerveza y vino tinto!
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2003, 12:38:36 pm »
Rashid, i go to the match and most people i know want GH to stay, so in that small percentage of people shows that he is still wanted, however i don't think he had much choice in playing the majority of those who started on saturday, otherwise we'd be playing unfit or untried players.

We fell behind Man U and Arsenal because of the Souness era, and a lot of people just assume we have a god given right to win things.

Simply we don't have that right, and it is not all down to the one person. Saturday proved to me that certain players couldn't give a shit about us, and if that is the case, then they can fuck off in January, as i'd rather have kids who cared than overpaid timewasters who don't.
Right which bastards eaten me Tapas?

http://hfdinfo.com/digital/

Offline Rashid

  • 99% of posts are bullshit, the other 1% get deleted. Unloved, unwashed, and untidy.
  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
  • Resident Dog
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2003, 12:43:55 pm »
"The thing I find most suprising is that GH shows no intent of leaving which again shows me arrogance, a man who just shrugs his shoulders and points to the injuries."

Fuck off with that Rash - it's just not needed. You have in the past claimed that GH offered to resign after the Birmingham game last year so what is it - he's too arrogant to go or he offered to go? Show some consistency.

The Birmingham thing is a rumour, a rumor I believed at the time.

Look Steve, put yourself in the position of Gerard Houllier. He lives in Liverpool, he sits on the bench. Are you telling me that he doesn't know the level of dissent in the crowd and on the streets? If you were in that same position would you still be here?

Yet instead of staying quiet and trying to get on with it he comes out with further excuses every day. There is no sign that he will resign, and he also knows that the board are reluctant to break with tradition and sack him.

I am not going into a chracater assination, but surely GH would be best off leaving with his dignity intact?

Offline adamski

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2003, 12:49:40 pm »
Is no one prepared to give him till our star players return to prove we're better than this?

Offline Rushian

  • Blanco y en botella
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,184
  • ¡No Pasarán!
    • Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2003, 12:51:17 pm »
have you ever thought Rash that he genuinely believs he can turn it round? What with Owen and Kewell back next week, Carra and Baros back in training etc
If you're going to sign up on Betfair and fancy getting a free £25 on sign-up then use my refer code 749DCNQGK and I'll also get a £25 bonus ;)

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

  • The name's Hall... Jonathan Hall. aka DangerPaddy. Olores de cebollas. Carly Cole Stalker. Likes to drink at Bar Fanny.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,048
  • Tapas y Cerveza y vino tinto!
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2003, 12:53:00 pm »
Is no one prepared to give him till our star players return to prove we're better than this?

I'm prepared to give him to the end of the seaon, which is what i said before the season started, however i'm not prepared to have certain players just go through the emotions, those that do that can go next month.
Right which bastards eaten me Tapas?

http://hfdinfo.com/digital/

Offline Mirra

  • The Cock of RAWK. desperately seeking two fat ladies. His ass found glass in the grass.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,543
  • No one on the corner got a swagger like me
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2003, 12:56:14 pm »
I hope he gets his axe out next month. A Few must be shown the door, I want Ged to suceed and I think the end of the season is fair. We will qualify for the CL this season, I have no doubts. Come on Ged, get rid of some of the players who you've stuck your neck on the line for. Its time to sort the men from the boys. Things have got to change or hes out anyway, so lets all just hope come January he sees the light.
Mirra, 7777 wake up the thread needs you!

Offline Bob Kurac

  • Cares.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,434
  • Modern football is shit
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2003, 12:58:32 pm »
i'm not prepared to have certain players just go through the emotions

if only they were going through the emotions, and not just the motions

(I had a particularly satisfying motion after the first ciggie of the day today)

Offline redpanic

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 738
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2003, 12:58:36 pm »
john mac , spot on mate, great post

it really hurts to hear abuse and anger hurled at him now

something has got to give soon

for 70 mins on saturday he was let down big time, however he has a big part to play in that 'performance'

 :( :( :(

Offline Walshy nMe®

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,373
  • Legend
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2003, 01:04:37 pm »
I know it's an excuse that has been used all season, but to me it is justified.

To me our strongest line up is

Dudek/Kirkland (dont think it makes that much of a diff.)
Finnan Hyppia Henchoz Carra
Diouf Gerrard Hamman Kewell
Owen Baros

IMO that is the strongest and im sure most of you will agree. Have they started a game this year?

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

  • The name's Hall... Jonathan Hall. aka DangerPaddy. Olores de cebollas. Carly Cole Stalker. Likes to drink at Bar Fanny.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,048
  • Tapas y Cerveza y vino tinto!
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2003, 01:06:01 pm »
if only they were going through the emotions, and not just the motions

(I had a particularly satisfying motion after the first ciggie of the day today)

I'm having serious spelling problems today, my emotions must have got the better of me.
Right which bastards eaten me Tapas?

http://hfdinfo.com/digital/

Offline WOOLTONIAN

  • The Garston Gasworks XI.....aka "Beryl".....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,784
  • Brodrick ; Vice Admiral of the Reds
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2003, 01:06:01 pm »
"Et Tu Brute"

never has above been more inappropriate to this and other stories written this morning.
It's not a case of stabbing a man in the back, it's more a case of watching people who really care, cry from the heart.
I read Evo's thread this morning, and tried to guess how he must have felt writing it.
This goes beyond that, it's sad to see stallwarts like John, Evo and a few others today, have the courage to even appear let alone write acceotance speeches.
I think most will now agree that "The Die has been Cast"
I only hope that others will show as much dignity and grace in the forthcoming weeks / months.
It would be far too easy for some to shout "I told yer so" and I hope that this forum is above such.
I've spent some time of official today asking for a modicum of common decency, which appears to be falling on deaf ears.
I'm sad that it took me a while to come round to a positive view, but with people like John, Rushian and others spending time educating me in the positives from this reign, I eventually got there.
I feel like the man who has just jumped on the Titanic at the last minute.

Credit to you John and Others who held out as long as you did, while all others around them lost their heads, one by one.

Living descendant of Sir Thomas Brodrick, Vice Admiral of the Red in the 18th Century

Offline MichaelA

  • MasterBaker, honey-trapper and 'concerned neighbour'. Beyond The Pale. Vermin on the ridiculous. Would love to leave Ashley Cole gasping for air. Dupe Snoop Extraordinaire. RAWK MARTYR #1. The proud owner of a new lower case a. Mickey Two Sheds.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 29,365
  • At the Academy
  • Super Title: MichaelA
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2003, 01:09:27 pm »
I know it's an excuse that has been used all season, but to me it is justified.

To me our strongest line up is

Dudek/Kirkland (dont think it makes that much of a diff.)
Finnan Hyppia Henchoz Carra
Diouf Gerrard Hamman Kewell
Owen Baros

IMO that is the strongest and im sure most of you will agree. Have they started a game this year?

How often does any side line up its first eleven?

Offline Walshy nMe®

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 28,373
  • Legend
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2003, 01:11:42 pm »
I'm not suggesting everyone else lines up every week with their strongest side, but we havent even done it once.

Offline Filler.

  • Up. resurrected. Keeps his Kath in a cage, but not sure if the new baby is in there as well. Studying for a Masters in Semiotics.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,767
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2003, 01:35:51 pm »
(I had a particularly satisfying motion after the first ciggie of the day today)

good for you Bob.  ;D

Offline Aremm

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
  • Come On You Mighty Reds
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2003, 02:13:31 pm »
I am staying strong and right behind our boss till the very end (whenever and whatever that may be).
This simple 'argument' was on another forum, and i couldn't agree more.


"i still believe in GH because:
he HAS learnt from some of his past mistakes (heskey IS NOT first choice)...
he is trying to be more honest with the fans and himself (outburst last week)...
he is trying to have us play better football...
and because when he gets his first choice eleven back, we should and will reach 4th place...

and if we finish in that position this season, we will only be behind a) the current champions, b) the team who have been recent champions, who many pundits believe are still the best in the country, and c) the club who have spent £100m in one spree...

that 3 very difficult hurdles for any team to overcome...it's even harder to do it without much support..."

Offline john_mac

  • The Scouse Confucius
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,669
  • Only got 3 bullets and there's 4 of Motley Crew
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2003, 02:16:45 pm »
I don’t know if people read my post as some sort of a grudging acceptance that Houllier’s time was up, that I had all I could take, and that it was time for Ged to move in, it was never intended in that frame, but from the comments it does appear that this is how it has been taken.

I don’t believe that.

I am at a loss to see a way forward but I take literally hundreds of positives from Ged’s time as manager, far more than from the Evans and Souness eras. There is plenty to be positive about and while it would be ridiculous to blame everything on injuries, it would also be ridiculous to take no account of them.

We have a squad which contains the names Kirkland, Carragher, Finnan, Le Tallec, Kewell, Diouf, Gerrard, Owen, Baros & Pognolle, someone work out the average age of that lot and there is plenty of reason for optimism, throw in Otsemebor and Welsh, home-grown talents, and watch that average come down again. If anything we lack proven experience with only really Hyppia, Henchoz and Hamman with any real quality in that area, something sadly missing at times this season.

Spare a thought for the first half performance against Arsenal, another for the league cup victory at Cardiff and a final one for the way we battled at Goodison and it becomes clear that everything is not as gloomy as some would portray it.  Spare a thought for the time, patience and money that Ged, the coaching staff, the board and SOME of our fans have invested in Heskey, Smicer, Riise and Murphy and you can understand the frustrations.

More than I anytime that I can remember there appears a need to paint everything black and white when in reality we are working in shades of grey. Houllier’s reign can never be compared to those of Kenny, Bob or Bill’s but there were plenty not too upset to see uncle Joe go in ’85 after one season of the toffees winning the league.

I honestly cannot see too much that can be gained from the departure of our manager at this stage, apart from saving him from the savage undignified way that some Liverpool  fans appear to think that it is right and fitting to treat a man who has given his all for our club.

I hope and pray for Ged, I still believe in him and hope that those on the board who heaped so much on his shoulders at the AGM as he returned from his heart operation have the courage to stand shoulder to shoulder with him now. People can talk about the players having lost faith in the manager, if that is true it is a disgrace, he has stood by everyone of them, sticking up for their cowardice to show a united public front. Ged’s departure must surely signal the end for many that he has shown so much loyalty towards. Ironically his biggest critics are quick to identify as a weakness his unwillingness to publicly criticise the players or the club. Some describe this as stubbornness, I prefer to see it as loyalty to players and often fans, who have steadfastly failed to show him the same loyalty and respect.

Like everybody else, I can see that Ged is hurting, never the easiest time to make clear and necessary decisions. When you are in the trenches you need those there with you to dig deep, be united and stand as one, unfortunately neither the fans nor the players appear capable of that now.

Ged’s era for me will forever be epitomised by thousands of kids lining the streets of Liverpool to applaud a bus with three trophies around the city, many reds seeing silverware for the first time in their lives. It will be epitomised by Cardiff, Rome and Barcelona, by the thoughts in the minds of those of us who travelled to Kiev after the Leeds game. I won’t remember it for a half-hearted lifeless display against Southampton, wherever and whenever that reign ends.

It is not about blind faith and why should it be, it is about belief and hope, and if for many then this has gone, then I cannot honestly say that it has for me.

I would no longer be surprised if Ged called it a day, nor if the board did the easy thing and took the Leicester or Man City way, I have always been proud of the fact that Liverpool Football Club are different from the rest, that they would not go down that path, but sadly, that no longer seems to be what fans want.

Others can write their obituaries of Gerard’s reign if they like, I’ll hang on for now, hoping and mostly believing that he can breath life back into the lifeless shell of a team which should have dragged themselves off that pitch on Saturday heads hung in shame.

YNWA
We'll See Things They'll Never See

Offline AndyJ

  • If it wasn't for RAWK I'd jack in work
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,513
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2003, 02:17:17 pm »

"i still believe in GH because:
he HAS learnt from some of his past mistakes (heskey IS NOT first choice)...
he is trying to be more honest with the fans and himself (outburst last week)...
he is trying to have us play better football...
and because when he gets his first choice eleven back, we should and will reach 4th place...

and if we finish in that position this season, we will only be behind a) the current champions, b) the team who have been recent champions, who many pundits believe are still the best in the country, and c) the club who have spent £100m in one spree...

that 3 very difficult hurdles for any team to overcome...it's even harder to do it without much support..."


So you're happy to accept just fourth which we haven't even achieved yet. We're nowhere to be seen in terms of competing. If we finish just fourth and the other teams are 20+ points ahead its a crime cause we finished second two years ago. On current ability we are no better than Bolton, Fulham, Charlton and Southampton.

I really hope Ged can restore the pride in the team that was desperately lacking on Saturday.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2003, 02:20:48 pm by AndyJ »

Offline ant1975

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2003, 02:22:47 pm »
personally, two summers ago cost ged bigtime, the signings of diouf, daio and cheyrou coupled with the persistence of Hskey is probably gonna cost him his job.

Theres no doubt he believed they were right for the club, but they've let him down, and i hold them equally responsible for the mess we are in. When you think we could have had Wright, Litmanen and Anelka, i shudder, not to mention Markus this season.

Everything that could have gone wrong has including injuries etc. I have been one of his biggest critics but now that things are coming to a head its really distressing, for the fans and club as a whole. Any way we look at it we're in a mess and im not sure of the best way out.

I think its right that if he does go people should try and remember the good stuff.

Offline adamski

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2003, 02:23:43 pm »
On current ability we are no better than Bolton, Fulham, Charlton and Southampton.

I would change that to, On our current form we are no better than Bolton, Fulham, Charlton and Southampton.
We have players to come back who are truly world class. We play better than all those teams on our day. I have confidence we will turn it around but we need some sort of lift. A massive win would help starting with Wolves on Sat.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2003, 02:28:01 pm by adamski »

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

  • The name's Hall... Jonathan Hall. aka DangerPaddy. Olores de cebollas. Carly Cole Stalker. Likes to drink at Bar Fanny.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,048
  • Tapas y Cerveza y vino tinto!
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2003, 02:24:56 pm »
personally, two summers ago cost ged bigtime, the signings of diouf, daio and cheyrou coupled with the persistence of Hskey is probably gonna cost him his job.

Theres no doubt he believed they were right for the club, but they've let him down, and i hold them equally responsible for the mess we are in. When you think we could have had Wright, Litmanen and Anelka, i shudder, not to mention Markus this season.

Everything that could have gone wrong has including injuries etc. I have been one of his biggest critics but now that things are coming to a head its really distressing, for the fans and club as a whole. Any way we look at it we're in a mess and im not sure of the best way out.

I think its right that if he does go people should try and remember the good stuff.

One point about your mention of Wright, was he ever good enough? He can't even get into a poor sunderland team most matches.
Right which bastards eaten me Tapas?

http://hfdinfo.com/digital/

Offline Aremm

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
  • Come On You Mighty Reds
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2003, 02:27:54 pm »
AndyJ...

being 'happy' to finish 4th and understanding why it's just being realistic are two different things...

i will not be happy till we are champions again, however, there are three teams who are better positioned to do that than us...

i know it is Ged's job to get us in a better position, but he is up against an awful lot - such as tons of money (man utd & chelsea)...and an outstanding collection of players assembled by an outstanding manager (arsenal, and to an extent man utd)...
he needs more time and much more support...

i agree if we miss out on CL again he should go...but we are only in december...

Offline ant1975

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2003, 02:29:27 pm »
from what i remember the lad broke into the side had a few good games, scored in the champs league then was dropped for xavier.

He's a good player.

Offline Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆

  • The name's Hall... Jonathan Hall. aka DangerPaddy. Olores de cebollas. Carly Cole Stalker. Likes to drink at Bar Fanny.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 39,048
  • Tapas y Cerveza y vino tinto!
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2003, 02:31:49 pm »
from what i remember the lad broke into the side had a few good games, scored in the champs league then was dropped for xavier.

He's a good player.

So he might be but he hasn't proved anything yet.
He was also behind both Babbel and Carra as well as Xavier at the time.
Right which bastards eaten me Tapas?

http://hfdinfo.com/digital/

Offline ant1975

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2003, 02:38:27 pm »
but to quote houllier "he was young"

Offline john_mac

  • The Scouse Confucius
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,669
  • Only got 3 bullets and there's 4 of Motley Crew
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2003, 02:40:17 pm »
Just a point Ant, at the time Wright left Xavier was not in the team (Carra was), in fact Wright actually signed a new contract after Xavier arrived at the club.

Personally I believe that Wright knew (as many did) that Finnan's arrival was imminent and did not fancy his chances of ousting Carra, Finnan and Babbel from the first team rather than Xavier, who was laready well down the pecking order with a matter of months left on his contract.
We'll See Things They'll Never See

Offline Jamie_H

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
  • Champions of Europe 2005
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2003, 04:04:52 pm »
I dont think any of us who feel a change is required would want Ged to go if we felt there was a penny's chance he will turn this around.

Ged's excuse has been the injuries but I think the common feeling is that even with the players out,  when they are back fighting fit, they wont make much difference to our performances or results due to the managmement's inability to mix defensive grit with this new attacking style - which now seems to have gone out of the window since our defeat against United . 

The only player I feel we have seriously missed is Milan Baros. I think even had he not been injured and been given a run in the team ahead of Heskey I think time would show he is not the player we hope he will be.  But I would have liked to have let time be the judge of that, but alas we wont know.

Will Ged be given the time to see if Milan's partnership with Michael will work out? Only time will tell. Oh how we love the "Ronny Rosenthal" (head down, run and shoot) attitude of Milan - and how we have missed it.

However, Micheal rarely sees the ball in a game now which has been the case for the last few seasons, and I seriously think he needs his head tested if he signs a new contract with the current style of play. You can see from his body language he aint happy about the lack of supply.

Everyone has been raving about HK but what have we missed when he hasnt been playing? Not a great deal in all honesty. Be honest now.  I think he has excellent positional sense, that to me is encouraging but I want to see more from him.  He hasnt yet single handedly taken the fight to the opposition for us as he once did for Leeds on the odd occasions. We need to see more of that from him.

Le Tallec has started his career ala Cheyrou style i.e. huge build up coz of one good game pre season which is such a shame.  Its probably hard enough at 18 moving to a new country let alone trying to live up to some exagerated reputation. 

For me his mate Pongolle is looking good because he is coming on late in the game where is pace is causing problems.  The games he has started, for me he has looked what he is - an 18 year old kid that should be playing for the reserves. Yes both oppitomise what we have here - potential.

Finnan, well to be honest it makes me sick to know we knew about JO for such a while yet we spend more money on someone we could and should have picked from the acadamy. It is sickening. 

Finnan has been average - nothing more. He goes on a few forward runs and people are talking about him like he is the new Steve Nicol. Its only because JC never done it that people are saying what a fantastic right back he is. It amuses me - it really does. I feel Semi deserves a run in the team ahead of Finnan when Steve is back as he has done nothing to say he shouldnt be there.

The midfield, well that for me has been the problem for the last 2 seasons.  We have no link to the front two. We are crying out for a Litmanen/Dalglish playmaker but we havent got one. We are relying to heavilly on Danny Murphy who for me just doesnt cut the mustard. People talk about Steven Gerrard and Didi being the centre of our midfield but for all Stevie's huff and puff all he can offer is  a long ball for the striker to chase. Stevie need to take the ball himself beat players and shoot more. Preferably on target, which is something he needs to work on. As for Diouf and Smicer - enough said already - not good enough.

In all honesty - it is the system which is letting us down coupled with the lack of quality in the team. Particularly defensive cover.

We can all say we wont forget the day when the roads were jammed full of supporters applauding the lads on the treble tour but stop and think about this:

It took us penalties to beat a 1st Division team in Cardiff, for 70 minutes against Arsenal in Cardiff a equaliser looked the last thing we could of hoped for let alone the cup, and in Dortmund a freak own goal won us the treble against a team we should of wrapped up by half time.

Please do not mention Charity Shields or Super Cups - they dont register in my head as any real success. Nice to win but nothing to shout about. The luck we had on the way to winning that treble is astonishing. I've heard people say you make your own luck....... For me luck is luck.

I think Ged has had all his good fortune that year of 2001  and now it is evening itself out.  He said that the culture of winning trophies makes players more hungry for it. It hasnt so time to move on.

It is such a shame he wont step down for his own health. Surely it cant be good for his condition to try and cope with the presure of turning this around. We are probably in the worst scenario this club has been in for the past 13 years. There is absolutely no belief that things are going to get better under Ged, which means this is a time for change.

I personally have already wrote this season off. Why dont the board now go out and get a replacement for Ged and let him get his feet under the table in time to start making a more prosperous 2004/5 season.


Offline john_mac

  • The Scouse Confucius
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,669
  • Only got 3 bullets and there's 4 of Motley Crew
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2003, 04:18:24 pm »
I'm sorry but if this the worst scenario in 13 years I must not have been around for much of it.

Thirteen years ago, by the way, we were top of the table having made our best ever start to a season, if that was worse than this I'll take it.

If we haven't missed Owen, Harry or Carra I must have been watching something else as I genuinely believed that we had.

& Finally of course we are crying out for a Kenny Dalglish/ Jari Litmanen- every team in the world are. At their best each was arguabky the best player in the world one a European Footballer of the year, the other our greatest ever player, if ever a man was befitting of that crown it was Kenny.

No excuses just facts, the situation is bad enough without people having to dredge up lies, exaggerations and innuendos.
We'll See Things They'll Never See

Offline adamski

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2003, 04:22:41 pm »

Ged's excuse has been the injuries but I think the common feeling is that even with the players out,  when they are back fighting fit, they wont make much difference to our performances or results

Can't agree with this. No one in their right mind could say that the likes of Harry Kewell and Michael Owen wouldn't make a difference to a team!

Quote

The only player I feel we have seriously missed is Milan Baros. I think even had he not been injured and been given a run in the team ahead of Heskey I think time would show he is not the player we hope he will be.  But I would have liked to have let time be the judge of that, but alas we wont know.


Contradiction! You feel he's the only palyer we've missed but don't think he'll turn into the player we hope he will be. Utter bollox.

Quote

Everyone has been raving about HK but what have we missed when he hasnt been playing? Not a great deal in all honesty. Be honest now.  I think he has excellent positional sense, that to me is encouraging but I want to see more from him.  He hasnt yet single handedly taken the fight to the opposition for us as he once did for Leeds on the odd occasions. We need to see more of that from him.


Utter crap. The guy is scoring consistently and has showed real class since he's been here. It was a miracle that GH managed to get Harry for such a cheap fee. This is a mindless attack on one of GH's better signings.

Quote
Finnan, well to be honest it makes me sick to know we knew about JO for such a while yet we spend more money on someone we could and should have picked from the acadamy. It is sickening. 

Finnan has been average - nothing more. He goes on a few forward runs and people are talking about him like he is the new Steve Nicol. Its only because JC never done it that people are saying what a fantastic right back he is. It amuses me - it really does. I feel Semi deserves a run in the team ahead of Finnan when Steve is back as he has done nothing to say he shouldnt be there.


Finnan is a great player. He has been better than average for us in the games he has played. He provides an attacking option with defensive stability and he is experienced. We needed an attacking right back with experience, GH went out and bought one. Semmy should be cover for Finnan. He's too young to be considered 1st choice for every game despite his inspirational appearances this season.

Quote

People talk about Steven Gerrard and Didi being the centre of our midfield but for all Stevie's huff and puff all he can offer is  a long ball for the striker to chase.


All Stevie G, probably the best English midfielder in the country can offer is a long ball for the striker to chase. - Thank christ you're not our manager!

Quote

It took us penalties to beat a 1st Division team in Cardiff, for 70 minutes against Arsenal in Cardiff a equaliser looked the last thing we could of hoped for let alone the cup, and in Dortmund a freak own goal won us the treble against a team we should of wrapped up by half time.

Please do not mention Charity Shields or Super Cups - they dont register in my head as any real success. Nice to win but nothing to shout about. The luck we had on the way to winning that treble is astonishing. I've heard people say you make your own luck....... For me luck is luck.


You belittle our achievements like a rival supporter would.

Quote

It is such a shame he wont step down for his own health. Surely it cant be good for his condition to try and cope with the presure of turning this around.


Don't pretend you have any concern for the manager's health.


Offline Jamie_H

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
  • Champions of Europe 2005
Re: The tide is turning
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2003, 05:16:20 pm »

John,

Sorry but I do feel we are in a very bad predicament, sorry but that is my personal feeling that we are in a mess and see no way out under Ged.

Never have I seen such acceptance from our fellow supporters that Ged is wrong for this club than after Saturdays match. In my boozer after his interview you wouldnt want to know what people were saying. For me I have seen nothing like this in 13 years both on and off the pitch.
 
And to start quoting history, John I am fully aware we last won the league then so dont try to be funny about that, I was talking since we last won it.
 
With regards to the players missed of course they are but in another team or another style of tactics they would be very missed. But the way we dont use them to our advantage that sometimes when they arent playing they arent as missed at all. What I mean by that is this:-

If MO had as many opportunites created for him as Arsenal/Manu/Chelsea do for their strikers he would probably score 50 a season.  How many games in the past two years has he played for us and he has looked totally inaffective, not through his own fault but through the fault of the system we play.  The reason we bought Finnan was allegedly because Carragher wasnt good enough going forward?? Kewell hasnt done enough for me - its my personal point  of  view I feel we havent seen the best of him yet. 

It is the fact that when they have played and we have looked out of sorts that made me state what I said in the first place.


Adamski,

Your first point, you will find my answer above to John.

My contradicition as you put it, what I meant was that Milan is the type/mould of player we need at this moment of time but whether he would be consistent and be the answer to our prayers only time would tell.


My mindless attack on Harry Kewell as you put it.  Well like I mention above, I just think there is more in the tank to come from Harry.  I want to see him take the fight to the oppostion  in the style he did for the Aussies against England. In my eyes he hasnt done enough of that for us. I am fully aware he has scored 8 goals in 20 games.

Finnan is a great player?? Each to their own. I'll be completely honest with you, JO has played at least to the standard of Finnan in each game he has played for us this season - can you argue with that?

Stevie G is one of the best midfielders in the country if not the best on his day.  What I am trying to say is that we have not got a link from midfield to attack - he needs to carry the ball himself and make things happen more than just pumping balls for the front two to get on the end of.


Belittling our achievements?In my mind it is seeing it how it was. If you think you saw it any different then who am I to argue - like who the fuck are you to tell me how I fucking saw it.

"Don't pretend you have any concern for the manager's health. "

I wont then as you obviously know me better than my mother.