Topic: It's a conspiraceh

[oldfordie]

As you imply, there are many varieties, of conspiracy theory, and the term itself has become a cop-out - from both sides.

Climate change is the most important (I'm sure I ought to caveat that) to address, but where is that being fuelled from (fuelled being the operative word)? People have been raised not to think, not to question, not to inquire, not to wonder. When the Koch Bros and Murdoch pay millions to tell them to keep on doing the same, is it any surpriise they think as they're told.

It's a con game, and if you think you can't be conned, you are in all likelihood already being conned.

That sounds good but ive never said nobody can con me as am no expert, this is more about how you form opinions and it doesn't just apply to CT is also applies to politics. if you are going to form opinions then I think checking your sources is very important, not giving the same weight to all opinions, if many experts in their field agree on something then I will trust their opinion over a few CT opinions, I will not let something trivial carry more importance than a mountain of proof provided by experts. thing is with these CT theories they are very easy to make up but they take a hell of a lot of research to disprove, I trust the opinions of the many experts who did a hell of a lot of research to disprove their CT. 

[Jiminy Cricket]

But the microscopic chips were part of the argument as to why the building couldn't have been control demolished.

My original scepticism came from watching the original Zeitgeist film. I'm assuming everyone discussing on here has seen it?

I made the mistake of watching that a good few years ago - I had no idea what it was about - it was packed full with nonsense. I think it was in the Zeitgeist 'documentary' where it shows girders from the rubble with clean (rounded) cuts through them. This was, apparently, 'evidence of the use of shaped explosives to bring down the towers'. Except - of course - this is patently untrue. What they showed were girders cut during the cleanup operation using oxyacetylene torches. The telling of such blatant untruths only can be the result of propaganda, gross incompetence, or don't-give-a-fuck pursuit of profit at any cost.

By the way - I'd assume that most members hear have not watch Zeitgeist. It is fringe stuff.

[Jiminy Cricket]

That sounds good but ive never said nobody can con me as am no expert, this is more about how you form opinions and it doesn't just apply to CT is also applies to politics. if you are going to form opinions then I think checking your sources is very important, not giving the same weight to all opinions, if many experts in their field agree on something then I will trust their opinion over a few CT opinions, I will not let something trivial carry more importance than a mountain of proof provided by experts. thing is with these CT theories they are very easy to make up but they take a hell of a lot of research to disprove, I trust the opinions of the many experts who did a hell of a lot of research to disprove their CT.

I assume a large part of the problem is that too many people google search using terms such as, '5G coronavirus conspiracy', rather than something like, '5G technology'. They will seek out contrarians, rather than science websites. Then, on top of this, places like Youtube push evermore extreme views on any subject you might wish to view there (because this is what is dictated by the numbers and 'engagement', and is the only parameter which matters).

[idontknow]

That sounds good but ive never said nobody can con me as am no expert, this is more about how you form opinions and it doesn't just apply to CT is also applies to politics. if you are going to form opinions then I think checking your sources is very important, not giving the same weight to all opinions, if many experts in their field agree on something then I will trust their opinion over a few CT opinions, I will not let something trivial carry more importance than a mountain of proof provided by experts. thing is with these CT theories they are very easy to make up but they take a hell of a lot of research to disprove, I trust the opinions of the many experts who did a hell of a lot of research to disprove their CT.

Agree with you on this, was more talking about the money behind climate change denial.

The difficulty can be determining who is an honest expert, who is honest but not media saavy so says something that xan be twisted, who is knowledgeable but has an agenda, who is dishonest but persuasive, right down to the unpleasant people.


I presume you've seen this, but it seems a good opportunity to share the link

https://www.gapminder.org/

With all the crap in the world these statistical maps show things are getting better and can get better still.
 

I was also going to link some Michael Shermer, not for you personally Oldfordie, just more as a link to people who know how not to get confused by conspiracy things, but I am sure Alan posted a link to Skeptics earlier.

[oldfordie]

Anyone remember the ITV They didn't land on the Moon program made decades ago,?
it was on for at least a hour, people being interviewed off the record talking about how they faked the moon landing, how they used equipment they called Jukeboxes and other stuff. how their lives were in danger as people had disappeared just talking about this stuff, very convincing stuff for a young lad back then, got into work the next day and asked the lads if they watched the Moon Landing program last night, amazing it was.
One of the lads just looked at me and said what date was it yesterday. April 1st 

[oldfordie]

I assume a large part of the problem is that too many people google search using terms such as, '5G coronavirus conspiracy', rather than something like, '5G technology'. They will seek out contrarians, rather than science websites. Then, on top of this, places like Youtube push evermore extreme views on any subject you might wish to view there (because this is what is dictated by the numbers and 'engagement', and is the only parameter which matters).

I very rarely go that far to be honest. 5G CT I dismissed as rubbish without much research as the arguments made at the beginning were just not true, how 5g was first rolled out at Wuhan so it started Covid, we knew that was rubbish without going any further, we heard 5 g was rolled out all over China at the same time so that rules out the theory it started Covid, then came all the other stuff about waves making you ill. all ruled out straight away by experts, how people believe this stuff is beyond me to be honest. if people prefer to trust Piers Corbyns then it's up to them, I would just look at all the other CT he spouts, he has a full house. the lot, can anyone believe all these different CTs, not really, I think he is making a nice living out of it like a few others who spout CTs. people should look to check their sources.

[oldfordie]

Agree with you on this, was more talking about the money behind climate change denial.

The difficulty can be determining who is an honest expert, who is honest but not media saavy so says something that xan be twisted, who is knowledgeable but has an agenda, who is dishonest but persuasive, right down to the unpleasant people.


I presume you've seen this, but it seems a good opportunity to share the link

https://www.gapminder.org/

With all the crap in the world these statistical maps show things are getting better and can get better still.
 

I was also going to link some Michael Shermer, not for you personally Oldfordie, just more as a link to people who know how not to get confused by conspiracy things, but I am sure Alan posted a link to Skeptics earlier.

I agree that is a problem, you see a name you've never heard of before and he sounds convincing. I was talking to someone only the other day who has been won over by some of these arguments,  had some heated arguments over Covid CT months ago which they now accept are rubbish, other arguments since which are basically about trusting your sources. I suggested they start lurking or maybe joining a forum which discusses politics etc, hear other peoples views. maybe thats one of the problems, I think you wouldn't wait long for a answer if someone asked what do you think of Piers Corbyn, how he has them worried over this 5G, Covid.

[Alan_X]

See, I've waded into the last page of this thread (because I'd watched that thing last night) so not read if the JFK theories have been addressed.

Without looking back, and very much off the top of my head (so appreciate I could be strolling merrily into a trap):

It's extremely unlikely LHO could have got 3 rounds off in such a short (5 seconds?) span with such accuracy.

Multiple witnesses recall 4 or more shots

The grassy knoll

The magic bullet

Ruby's intervention afterwards

The only relevant reference to multiple shots was the recording on the microphone of a police cycle. That was the ‘evidence’ that was referred to in the later government investigation (and was the basis for the multiple shooter and ‘conspiracy’ references in the report). It was shown to be erroneous - the motorcycle in question was not in the Plaza at the time. This still gets referenced by CTers as proof that there were multiple shooters.

As a general note it’s worth noting that eye witness testimony is among the worst In terms of accuracy.

What about the grassy knoll? People talk about it but there is no evidence of a gunman in that location - particularly the ballistic evidence.

The ‘magic bullet’ is based on the assumption that the four passenger seats in the presidential limousine are laid out in a regular pattern and the front two seats were in the same level. The seats occupied by JFK and Jaqueline Kennedy were higher and further apart than the two in front. When that is taken into account the trajectory of the ‘magic bullet’ from the window of the Book Depository through the Presidents neck and on to the Governor was straight and true. This has been demonstrated on a number of occasions both virtually and practically.

Ruby proves nothing. What matters is the ballistic and the other evidence. I will concede that it’s possible (though extremely unlikely on the evidence) that Oswald was in fact a paid assassin and Ruby was paid to silence him. That is completely irrelevant to the overwhelming evidence that JFK was killed by a Carcano rifle shot from the Book Depository window with Lee Harvey Oswald at the trigger.

What should be surprising is that sixty years on there is zero corroborating evidence for a conspiracy to murder a president but more and more evidence and independent analysis that it was Oswald who was the killer.

That’s the thing about CTs. They are evidence free zones. You missed out a few classics (the Carcano can’t be fired that rapidly, ‘back and to the left’, the ‘faked’ photo etc) but most of the big hits were all there. Thoroughly debunked claims that still rattle around and get picked up by new audiences decades on.

[kesey]

Back and to the left ..... Alan... back and to the left .

Meanwhile in now though it's wakey wakey time .

[McrRed]

I made the mistake of watching that a good few years ago - I had no idea what it was about - it was packed full with nonsense. I think it was in the Zeitgeist 'documentary' where it shows girders from the rubble with clean (rounded) cuts through them. This was, apparently, 'evidence of the use of shaped explosives to bring down the towers'. Except - of course - this is patently untrue. What they showed were girders cut during the cleanup operation using oxyacetylene torches. The telling of such blatant untruths only can be the result of propaganda, gross incompetence, or don't-give-a-fuck pursuit of profit at any cost.

By the way - I'd assume that most members hear have not watch Zeitgeist. It is fringe stuff.

It's a cracking documentary but whether it is truth or entertainment I couldn't say.
The bit you raise about oxyacetylene torches I hadn't heard before and that's exactly the kind of debunk I need. For those that haven't seen it you have a group of firefighters at the scene, as the buildings have just come down, talking about how they've never seen shear lines like it and hearing explosions go off at the time of the collapse.

My biggest disappointment with debunking was with a programme about the moon landings being faked where, after half an hour of evidence, a NASA official comes on and says "that's rubbish". I need to know WHY it's rubbish, and personally, to date, no one has been able to supply that to me. The closest I've got is just above with some comments about normal construction being able to withstand van Allen Belt radiation.

[Durlmints]

Alan I don't mean this in snarky way but I am genuinely curious, are there any conspiracy theories that you consider credible or at least worthy of merit?

From your reply about the JFK stuff it's clear you have read a fair bit on topics like these in the past, but do seem very skeptical still and so I am wondering what your past experience on the topic has been?

As Sheer correctly says, several seemingly paranoid conspiracy theories have indeed turned out to be true. Epstein and Hollywood execs being nonces was just a conspiracy theory, but now is considered mainstream...conspiracy fact? The entertainment industry has been littered with disgusting abusers and liars but only now is it seemingly becoming accepted as almost a mundane truth in the day-to-day social discourse. For years it's been purely on the conspiracy theory fringe. I have seen lots of posts online about other celebrities who are 'apparently' involved in those circles and whilst I have no way of confirming or denying those claims, if the FBI suddenly made a dozen arrests then overnight it goes from nutty conspiracy theory to simply mainstream news.

I was called paranoid and laughed at for putting tape over my laptop webcam years ago because I had read that it could be remotely activated. "Why would anyone want to do that? etc. etc. And yet years later it's become clear that webcams can very obviously be remotely activated without the 'on light' showing. These days, that's not even advanced James Bond level coding either, it's doable by mucky hackers in hoodies. Many tech experts these days even recommend putting a sticker or cover over the camera when you aren't using it.

[Jiminy Cricket]

As Sheer correctly says, several seemingly paranoid conspiracy theories have indeed turned out to be true. Epstein and Hollywood execs being nonces was just a conspiracy theory, but now is considered mainstream...conspiracy fact?

Victims of Epstein made credible accusations against him. There was a police investigation. He was prosecuted. He was found guilty. How is any of that related to conspiracy theory?

[So… Howard Philips]

Victims of Epstein made credible accusations against him. There was a police investigation. He was prosecuted. He was found guilty. How is any of that related to conspiracy theory?

Well he was killed by Hillary with a magic bullet loaded with thermite so he wouldn't reveal the full details of Pizzagate and all the Satanic abuse scandals.

[idontknow]

One bit of context you've left out is that assassination attempts are rather common.

There was a book on this that I read around 2012, recently published, by a British author, unfortunately the title is something like Assassination, so gets lost, but one of the things it recounted was the generality of assassination attempts across the world. Most fail.

I expect most assassinations fail, or succeed, because most people turn out to be average in their tasks.
I'm not the first to lament this human failing.
For one, Mr Feynman beat me to the beat, and I'm sure he wasn't joking.

[bigbonedrawky]

I think Oswald caused the death firing his large calibre FMJ rounds from his Carcano but I think Hicky accidentally delivered the fatal blow with his smaller calibre hollow point round from his AR15. Was there a conspiracy to kill JFK ie Did at least 2 people discuss or plot to kill the President...By George I think, there was you know. 
If Hicky did deliver the fatal blow was there a conspiracy to cover that up...More than likely.

Molten aluminium when exposed to water may of caused the explosions in WTC 1 and 2 but as for the Pentagon and Shanksville planes I've seen little evidence to indicate there's even a plane at either location. 

[Jiminy Cricket]

I think Oswald caused the death firing his large calibre FMJ rounds from his Carcano but I think Hicky accidentally delivered the fatal blow with his smaller calibre hollow point round from his AR15. Was there a conspiracy to kill JFK ie Did at least 2 people discuss or plot to kill the President...By George I think, there was you know. 
If Hicky did deliver the fatal blow was there a conspiracy to cover that up...More than likely.

Molten aluminium when exposed to water may of caused the explosions in WTC 1 and 2 but as for the Pentagon and Shanksville planes I've seen little evidence to indicate there's even a plane at either location. 

Joke - I assume? Hard to tell for sure these days.

[bigbonedrawky]

Joke - I assume? Hard to tell for sure these days.

Did you laugh ?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Did you laugh ?

No. But is is hard to belive that you could be serious about this:

I think Oswald caused the death firing his large calibre FMJ rounds from his Carcano but I think Hicky accidentally delivered the fatal blow with his smaller calibre hollow point round from his AR15. Was there a conspiracy to kill JFK ie Did at least 2 people discuss or plot to kill the President...By George I think, there was you know. 
If Hicky did deliver the fatal blow was there a conspiracy to cover that up...More than likely.

Molten aluminium when exposed to water may of caused the explosions in WTC 1 and 2 but as for the Pentagon and Shanksville planes I've seen little evidence to indicate there's even a plane at either location. 

[bigbonedrawky]

No. But is is hard to belive that you could be serious about this:

Maybe the small hole in the back of Kennedy head was caused by a FMJ which somehow shrunk in diameter and fragmented inside the head. It might be that nobody ever discussed whacking the president either.
The explosions heard in WTC 1 and 2 might of been figments of peoples imagination and molten aluminium doesn't really explode when it comes into contact with water.
It might also be that you have a catalogue of pictures or video showing planes hitting the Pentagon or the field in Shanksville.
Either way I eagerly await enlightenment...But I won't hold my breath.   

[Jiminy Cricket]

Maybe the small hole in the back of Kennedy head was caused by a FMJ which somehow shrunk in diameter and fragmented inside the head. It might be that nobody ever discussed whacking the president either.
The explosions heard in WTC 1 and 2 might of been figments of peoples imagination and molten aluminium doesn't really explode when it comes into contact with water.
It might also be that you have a catalogue of pictures or video showing planes hitting the Pentagon or the field in Shanksville.
Either way I eagerly await enlightenment...But I won't hold my breath.

Nope. Still can't tell. This is a prime example of Poe's Law in action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

[bigbonedrawky]

Nope. Still can't tell. This is a prime example of Poe's Law in action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Then don't worry about it. I'm definitely not worrying about your intent. 

[Floydy]

The world is run by psychopaths and governed by a puppet state.  The world is upside down. FACT

[Elmo!]

The world is run by psychopaths and governed by a puppet state.  The world is upside down. FACT

World is upside down. Globes can't be upside down. Ergo earth is flat. FACT.

[Floydy]

World is upside down. Globes can't be upside down. Ergo earth is flat. FACT.

[kesey]

Alan I don't mean this in snarky way but I am genuinely curious, are there any conspiracy theories that you consider credible or at least worthy of merit?

I think Alan agreed with me on aspartame years ago. I think it was aspartame anyway but he did agree with me on something.

[Alan_X]

I think Oswald caused the death firing his large calibre FMJ rounds from his Carcano but I think Hicky accidentally delivered the fatal blow with his smaller calibre hollow point round from his AR15. Was there a conspiracy to kill JFK ie Did at least 2 people discuss or plot to kill the President...By George I think, there was you know. 
If Hicky did deliver the fatal blow was there a conspiracy to cover that up...More than likely.

Molten aluminium when exposed to water may of caused the explosions in WTC 1 and 2 but as for the Pentagon and Shanksville planes I've seen little evidence to indicate there's even a plane at either location. 

If you've 'seen little evidence of planes' at Shanksville or the Pentagon it's either because you haven't looked very hard or choose to dismiss the mountaions of evidence that exists in favour of crackpot theories based on minor anomalies, ambiguous infomration and minority testimony. If you search 'In Plane Site' on here and follow the links I did a deep dive on the Pentagon attack. It was very instructive for me - I asked anyone to come up with their evidence (or lack of it) for their being no plane and the more I looked the more evidece I found to support the fact that it was a plane that hit the Pentagon.  It's not just on the balance of evidence, it's cast iron.

CTer's love to say that eye-witnesses say they saw a guided missile. In a previous thread I copied and pasted a series of quotes as posted on a Conspiracy Theory website in repsose to this:

The believers v the non believers

The fact is, we all see things differently, so will all have our views.  I find it interesting that most of those who dismiss talk of conspiracy theory's tend to just say stuff like 'it's bollocks, the government would never do that' etc.

Also interesting is that the burden is always for the theorists to prove their theory and not for the officialist (government) to prove the official line.

Anyway, what we do know about 9/11 is that there are many unanswered or badly answered questions.  We also know that the twin towers did indeed collapse and many innocent people died.

How or why the twin towers collapsed is open to debate and you can listen to well reasoned arguments from those who say they were blown up, together with those who say otherwise.  Both sides believe they are right, but both sides CAN be wrong.

I personally pay little attention to any footage I see now as that could have been altered (talk about conspiracy theory ) but do recall events on the day quite vividly as I happen to be watching CNN as the story broke.

What I do recall regarding the Pentagon is that the very first eye witness accounts were of a missile hitting the Pentagon.  I even recall CCTV footage being shown (presumably before being confiscated by the FBI) of what clearly looked like a missile hitting the building.

The theory at the time was that it was a stray missile which was shot at a plane in the area refusing to identify itself.

Anyway, I don't believe the US government has done enough to prove it was a plane, which just leads people to ask other questions about the whole thing.

People have rightly said that for the US government to have planned and carried out this sickening atrocity would seem impossible for the number of 'agencies' that would have to have been in on the act.

However, to believe the official line would mean a series of incredible failures in intelligence and security at a number of different locations across the USA that would basically allow a group of guerrilla fighters to carry out one of the most sophisticated terrorist acts in history.

The truth probably is that we will never know the truth

BTW I fly to Holland on September 11th, bet security will be tight

From the Complete 911 Timeline:

9:37 a.m.: Fireman Dodges Flight 77; Immediately Notifies Superior About Crashed Jumbo Jet

Internet researchers have put together this image showing how an object the size of a jumbo jet clips a number of light poles and then destroys columns inside the Pentagon. [From website] [Source: Eric Bart]

Fireman Alan Wallace is busy with a safety crew at the Pentagon’s heliport pad. As Wallace is walking in front of the Pentagon, he looks up and sees Flight 77 coming straight at him. It is about 25 feet off the ground, with no landing wheels visible, a few hundred yards away, and closing fast. He runs about 30 feet and dives under a nearby van. [Washington Post, 9/21/2001] The plane is traveling at about 460 mph, and flying so low that it clips the tops of streetlights. [CBS News, 9/21/2001] Using the radio in the van, he calls his fire chief at nearby Fort Myer and says, “We have had a commercial carrier crash into the west side of the Pentagon at the heliport, Washington Boulevard side. The crew is OK. The airplane was a 757 Boeing or a 320 Airbus.” [Scripps Howard News Service, 8/1/2002]
Entity Tags: Pentagon, Alan Wallace, Fort Myer.

and how about this selection (from a conspiracy site - eric bart's slightly mad "it was a plane bomb" site http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html) I've deleted the statements from people who were inside the building:

Anderson Steve
I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.
http://www.jmu.edu/alumni/tragedy%5Fresponse/read%5Fmessages.html

Anderson Ted
Lt. Col. Ted Anderson : "We ran to the end of our building, turned left and saw nothing but huge, billowing black smoke, and a brilliant, brilliant explosion of fire." (...) One of the Pentagon's two fire trucks was parked only 50 feet from the crash site, and it was "totally engulfed in flames," Anderson says. Nearby, tanks full of propane and aviation fuel had begun igniting, and they soon began exploding, one by one. (...) Back in the building again, Anderson said he began "screaming and hollering for people as secondary and third-order explosions started going off. One of them was a fire department car exploding-I think my right eardrum exploded at the same time, and it unequivocally scared the heck out of me."
http://www.msnbc.com/news/635293.asp

Anlauf Deb & Jeff
Mrs. Deb Anlauf, resident of Colfax, Wisconsin, was in her 14th floor of the Sheraton Hotel [located 1.6 mile from the explosion], (immediately west of the Navy Annex) when she heard a "loud roar": Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window. You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. "Then it shot straight across from where we are and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon). When it hit, the whole hotel shook. (…) Jeff didn't feel the impact of the plane crash as directly as his wife. He was attending an environmental meeting on the second floor of the hotel when the plane struck the Pentagon. About five seconds before the crash, Jeff said he heard the sound of "tin being dropped," likely as construction workers building an addition to the hotel saw the plane and dropped their building materials. "Then, about 5 seconds later, the whole hotel shook," Jeff recalled. "I could feel it moving. We said 'Oh, my gosh, what's going on?' "
http://www.leadertelegram.com/specialreports/attack/storydetail.asp?ID=7

Battle
Battle, an office worker at the Pentagon, was standing outside the building and just about to enter when the aircraft struck. "It was coming down head first," he said. "And when the impact hit, the cars and everything were just shaking."
http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news01/091201_news_dcscene.shtml

Bauer Gary
Gary Bauer, a former Presidential candidate, happened to be driving into Washington, D.C. that morning, to a press conference on Capitol Hill."I was in a massive traffic jam, hadn't moved more than a hundred yards in twenty minutes. ... I had just passed the closest place the Pentagon is to the exit on 395 . . . when all of a sudden I heard the roar of a jet engine.""I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn't until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment.massnews.com / Amy Contrada / December 2001
http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2001/dec%202001/1201bauer.htm

Bauer Gary
"...came from behind us and banked to the right and went into the Pentagon."Interview with Warren Smith
http://www.thecharlotteworld.com/30%20Mins%20With/gary%20bauer/garybauer.html

Begala Paul
Paul Begala, a Democratic consultant, said he witnessed an explosion near the Pentagon. "It was a huge fireball, a huge, orange fireball," he said in an interview on his mobile phone. He said another witness told him a helicopter exploded. (AP, Washington, 9/12/2001 11:45:33 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0%2C1300%2C550486%2C00.html

Bell Mickey
Mickey Bell : The jet came in from the south and banked left as it entered the building, narrowly missing the Singleton Electric trailer and the on-site foreman, Mickey Bell. Bell had just left the trailer when he heard a loud noise. The next thing he recalled was picking himself off the floor, where he had been thrown by the blast. Bell, who had been less than 100 feet from the initial impact of the plane, was nearly struck by one of the plane´s wings as it sped by him. In shock, he got into his truck, which had been parked in the trailer compound, and sped away. He wandered around Arlington in his truck and tried to make wireless phone calls. He ended up back at Singleton´s headquarters in Gaithersburg two hours later, according to President Singleton, not remembering much. The full impact of the closeness of the crash wasn´t realized until coworkers noticed damage to Bell´s work vehicle. He had plastic and rivets from an airplane imbedded in its sheet metal, but Bell had no idea what had happened. During Bell´s close call, other Singleton workers, including sub-foreman Greg Cobaugh, were doing other work on the first and third floors. The blast wasn´t very loud to them. They were talking about reports that two planes crashed into the World Trade Center in Manhattan, New York - not considering the noise they heard could be a similar attack.
http://www.necanet.org/whats_new/report.cfm?ID=1003

Benedetto Richard
Richard Benedetto, a USA TODAY reporter, was on his way to work, driving on the Highway parrallel to the Pentagon : " It was an American Airlines airplane, I could see it very clearly.(...) I didn't see the impact. (...) The sound itself sounded more like a thud rather than a bomb (...) rather than a loud bomb explosion it sounded muffled, heavy, very deep. I didn't see any flaps, it looked like the plane was just in normal flying mode but heading straight down.It was straight. The only thing we saw on the ground outside there was a piece of a ... the tail of a lamp post. (Video)
high bandwidth : http://digipressetmp3.teaser.fr/uploads/491/Benedetto2.ram
low bandwidth : http://digipressetmp3.teaser.fr/uploads/491/Benedetto.ram

Biggert Judy
Members of Congress have been shuttled to the site to inspect the damage. Rep. Judy Biggert (R-Ill.) made the trip on Thursday. She saw remnants of the airplane. ''There was a seat from a plane, there was part of the tail and then there was a part of green metal, I could not tell what it was, a part of the outside of the plane,'' she said. ''It smelled like it was still burning.''

Boger Sean
Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building." "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." The crew, Boger and Spc. Jacqueline Kidd, air traffic controller and training supervisor, prepared for President George W. Bush to arrive from Florida around 12:30 p.m.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_46/local_news/12049-1.html

Bouchoux Donald R.
Donald R. Bouchoux, 53, a retired Naval officer, a Great Falls resident, a Vietnam veteran and former commanding officer of a Navy fighter squadron, was driving west from Tysons Corner to the Pentagon for a 10am meeting. He wrote: At 9:40 a.m. I was driving down Washington Boulevard (Route 27) along the side of the Pentagon when the aircraft crossed about 200 yards [should be more than 150 yards from the impact] in front of me and impacted the side of the building. There was an enormous fireball, followed about two seconds later by debris raining down. The car moved about a foot to the right when the shock wave hit. I had what must have been an emergency oxygen bottle from the airplane go flying down across the front of my Explorer and then a second piece of jagged metal come down on the right side of the car. Washington Post, Sept. 20, 2001
http://web.lexis-nexis.com...

Bowman John
John Bowman, a retired Marine lieutenant colonel and a contractor, was in his office in Corridor Two near the main entrance to the south parking lot. "Everything was calm,' Bowman said. "Most people knew it was a bomb. Everyone evacuated smartly. We have a good sprinkling of military people who have been shot at."
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_37/local_news/10380-1.html

Braman Chris
Staff Sgt. Chris Braman : The lawn was littered with twisted pieces of aluminum. He saw one chunk painted with the letter ``A,'' another with a ``C.'' It didn't occur to Braman what the letters signified until a man in the crowd stooped to pick up one of the smaller metal shards. He examined it for a moment, then announced: ``This was a jet.''

Bright Mark
Defense Protective Service officers were the first on the scene of the terrorist attack. One, Mark Bright, actually saw the plane hit the building. He had been manning the guard booth at the Mall Entrance to the building. "I saw the plane at the Navy Annex area," he said. "I knew it was going to strike the building because it was very, very low -- at the height of the street lights. It knocked a couple down." The plane would have been seconds from impact -- the annex is only a few hundred yards from the Pentagon. He said he heard the plane "power-up" just before it struck the Pentagon. "As soon as it struck the building I just called in an attack, because I knew it couldn't be accidental," Bright said. He jumped into his police cruiser and headed to the area.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/marines/hendersonhall/6_39/local_news/10797-1.html

Brown Ervin
At the Pentagon, employees had heard about or seen footage of the World Trade Centre attack when they felt their own building shake. Ervin Brown, who works at the Pentagon, said he saw pieces of what appeared to be small aircraft on the ground, and the part of the building by the heliport had collapsed.

Brown Rich
Pentagon staff raced along a wooden pathway opposite the Pentagon building, all heading towards bridges that would take them across the Potomac River. Grown men ran at full pace. Rich Brown was sitting at his desk and "there was just a huge sound that shook the building for a second or two". "I don't know what's happened. I assume it's a co-ordinated terrorist attack."
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/23/1030052968648.html

Burgess Lisa
Lisa Burgess, a reporter for the Army newspaper Stars and Stripes, said she was walking in a corridor near the blast site and was thrown to the ground by the force of the blast.
http://www.neurosis.org...

Campo
It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane, Mr Campo said. "I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0%2C1300%2C550486%2C00.html

Cissell James R.
As former Cincinnatian James R. Cissell sat in traffic on a Virginia interstate by the Pentagon Tuesday morning, he saw the blur of a commercial jet and wondered why it was flying so low. ''Right about the time it was crossing over the highway, it kind of dawned on me what was happening,'' said Cissell, son of Hamilton County Clerk of Courts Jim Cissell. In the next blink of an eye, he realized he had a front-row seat to history, as the plane plowed into the Pentagon, sending a fireball exploding into the air and scattering debris - including a tire rim suspected of belonging to the airplane - past his car. (…) In the next seconds dozens of things flashed through his mind. ''I thought, 'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board,'' Cissell said. While he remembers seeing the crash, Cissell remembers none of the sounds. ''It came in in a perfectly straight line,'' he said. ''It didn't slow down. I want to say it accelerated. It just shot straight in.''
http://www.cincypost.com/attack/cissel091201.html

Cleveland Allen
Allen Cleveland of Woodbridge Virginia looked out from a Metro train going to National Airport, to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. "I thought, 'There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,' " Before he could process that thought, he saw "a huge mushroom cloud. A lady staThe lady next to me was in absolute hysterics."" . . a silver pasenger jet, mid sized"
http://mfile.akamai.com/920/rm/thepost.download.akamai.com/920/nation/091101-5s.ram

Cleveland Allen
Soon after the crash(Within 30 seconds of the crash) I witnessed a military cargo plane(Possibly a C130) fly over the crash site and circle the mushroom cloud. My brother inlaw also witnessed the same plane following the jet while he was on the HOV lanes in Springfield. He said that he saw a jetliner flying low over the tree tops near Seminary RD in Springfield, VA. and soon afterwards a military plane was seen flying right behind it. I think this was also a reason for the false threat of another plane about to crash which caused rescuers to have to evacuate for a short time after the initial crash.

Cook Scott P.
"It was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon (...) As we watched the black plume gather strength, less than a minute after the explosion, we saw an odd sight that no one else has yet commented on. Directly in back of the plume, which would place it almost due west from our office, a four-engine propeller plane, which Ray later said resembled a C-130, started a steep decent towards the Pentagon. It was coming from an odd direction (planes don’t go east-west in the area), and it was descending at a much steeper angle than most aircraft. Trailing a thin, diffuse black trail from its engines, the plane reached the Pentagon at a low altitude and made a sharp left turn, passing just north of the plume, and headed straight for the White House. All the while, I was sort of talking at it: "Who the hell are you? Where are you going? You’re not headed for downtown!" Ray and Verle watched it with me, and I was convinced it was another attack. But right over the tidal basin, at an altitude of less than 1000 feet, it made another sharp left turn to the north and climbed rapidly. Soon it was gone, leaving only the thin black trail.
http://www.clothmonkey.com/91101.htm

Corley
"It was striking to me how little of the building was involved in the fire," said Dr. Corley, who has reviewed the Pentagon report. The fire, he said, "didn't spread and and trap other people in the building."While 125 Pentagon workers and 59 passengers and crew members on the plane died, few if any of the workers who died were from outside the immediate impact zone.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/05/nyregion/05TOWE.html

Correa Victor
LTC Victor Correa work at the Pentagon. (…) LTC Victor Correa's office, what was the Army's Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel, now the Army G-1, was in the path of the Boeing 757 that crashed into the Pentagon on a sunny fall morning. He was walking over to talk to a co-worker in the next cubicle when he was knocked down by the impact. "I saw a fireball come over my head," said Correa, an Active Guard Reservist now assigned to Joint Chiefs of Staff, J-5. "The fireball was coming like a wind-cloud of smoke trailing it. I also noticed to my right the windows going out and coming back in. The fireball came in and out quick - the speed of lightning. As it went back, it left a cloud of smoke and started dropping. At that time the fire system went up." Being knocked down turned out to be a life-saver. (…) "We thought it was some kind of explosion. That somehow someone got in here and planted bombs because we saw these holes."
http://www.army.mil/usar/news/2002/09-11anniv/herotellsall.html

Creed Dan
He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," Creed recalls.
http://www.ahwatukee.com/afn/community/articles/020906a.html      see that's an analogy

Damoose
Damoose said the worst part was leaving the Pentagon and walking along Fort Meyer Drive, a bike trail, "you could see pieces of the plane."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/daily/sep01/attack.html

Day Wayne T.
For one employee with Wedge One's mechanical subcontractor John J. Kirlin Inc., Rockville MD, "lucky" is an understatement. "We had one guy who was standing, looking out the window and saw the plane when it was coming in. He was in front of one of the blast-resistant windows," says Kirlin President Wayne T. Day, who believes the window structure saved the man's life. According to Matt Hahr, Kirlin's senior project manager at the Pentagon, the employee "was thrown about 80 ft down the hall through the air. As he was traveling through the air, he says the ceiling was coming down from the concussion. He got thrown into a closet, the door slammed shut and the fireball went past him," recounts Hahr. "Jet fuel was on him and it irritated his eyes, but he didn't get burned. Then the fireball blew over and the sprinklers came on, and he was able to crawl out of the closet and get out of the building through the courtyard."
http://www.designbuildmag.com/oct2001/pentagon1001.asp

DeChiaro Steve
Instead of following the streams of people away from the Pentagon, Steve DeChiaro ran toward the smoke. As he reached the west side of the building he saw a light post bent in half. "But when I looked at the site, my brain could not resolve the fact that it was a plane because it only seemed like a small hole in the building," he said. "No tail. No wings. No nothing." He followed the emergency crews that had just arrived. He saw people hanging out of windows and others crawling from the demolished area. "These people were covered in what I thought was powder - I don't know anything about medicine or first aid, I'm an engineer - but it looked like powder," DeChiaro said. "Only later did I find out that it was their skin." Civilians and soldiers joined emergency crews who were rushing inside to pull out anyone they could. But shortly after 10 a.m. police yelled at people to get back. "Just as we're about to open the door, they start screaming, 'There's another inbound plane', " DeChiaro said. "At that moment, your thoughts are: 'I go in the building, I get killed, then I'm no help to anybody.' In hindsight, I think we should have gone back in that building." For nearly 15 minutes, they stood watching the Pentagon burn and periodically checked the sky for another plane. That plane never reached Washington but fell, instead, in rural Pennsylvania. Teams of two and three eventually were sent back in to find more victims. But as the day grew longer, the flow of the injured stopped.
http://www.gomemphis.com/mca/america_at_war/article/0,1426,MCA_945_1300676,00.html

Defina
"The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.]
http://www.nfpa.org/NFPAJournal/OnlineExclusive/Exclusive_11_01_01/exclusive_11.01.01.asp

DiPaula Michael
Michael DiPaula 41, project coordinator Pentagon Renovation Team - He left a meeting in the Pentagon just minutes before the crash, looking for an electrician who didn't show, in a construction trailer less than 75 feet away. "Suddenly, an airplane roared into view, nearly shearing the roof off the trailer before slamming into the E ring. 'It sounded like a missile,' DiPaula recalls . . . Buried in debris and covered with airplane fuel, he was briefly listed by authorities as missing, but eventually crawled from the flaming debris and the shroud of black smoke unscathed.
http://www.sunspot.net/search/bal-archive-1990.htmlstory (killtown)    see again.... sounded like a missile

Dobbs Mike
Marine Corps officer Mike Dobbs was standing on one of the upper levels of the outer ring of the Pentagon looking out the window when he saw an American Airlines 737 twin-engine airliner strike the building. "It seemed to be almost coming in slow motion," he said later Tuesday. "I didn't actually feel it hit, but I saw it and then we all started running. They evacuated everybody around us." http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news01/091201_news_dcscene.shtml

Dobbs Mike
"... we saw a plane coming toward us, for about 10 seconds ... It was like watching a train wreck. I was mesmerized. ... At first I thought it was trying to crash land, but it was coming in so deliberately, so level... Everyone said there was a deafening explosion, but with the adrenaline, we didn't hear it."St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Sept. 13, 2001 - Philip Dine
http://web.lexisnexis.com ...
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~julianr/lexisnexis/dobbs.txt

Dubill Bob
" (...) when he saw a jetliner fly over the roadway. It filled his field of vision. The jet was 40-feet off the ground speeding toward the Pentagon. The wheels were up
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=5425475&BRD=386&PAG=461&dept_id=444919&rfi=6

That's the 'A to D's I won't bother with the rest... pretty conclusive don't you think?

Oh here's one from the Ws:

Walter Mike
Washington, Mike Walter, USA Today, on the road when a jet slammed into the Pentagon: "I was sitting in the northbound on 27 and the traffic was, you know, typical rush-hour -- it had ground to a standstill. I looked out my window and I saw this plane, this jet, an American Airlines jet, coming. And I thought, 'This doesn't add up, it's really low.' "And I saw it. I mean it was like a cruise missile with wings. It went right there and slammed right into the Pentagon. "Huge explosion, great ball of fire, smoke started billowing out. And then it was chaos on the highway as people tried to either move around the traffic and go down, either forward or backward. "We had a lady in front of me, who was backing up and screaming, 'Everybody go back, go back, they've hit the Pentagon.' "It was just sheer terror."

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/09/11/witnesses/usatoday.wav  (That's CNN by the way) see you may be confusing what you want to hear (or have been told to hear) with what catually happened that day.


What you probably recall is what you've seen on 9/11 "truth" websites... there was apparently a video from a local hotel (the Sheraton, see the testimony of Deb & Jeff Anlauf above) that was watched by hotel staff and was taken by the secret services. It has never been seen by anyone else though it is reported that it shows nothing of security value. The idea that it clearly shows what "looked like a missile" is hardly credible given that a hundred or so independent witnesses have confirmed that it was a plane. If witnesses on the 14th floor saw a plane why would the CCTV footage show something else?  It's another of those damn "unanswered questions"

Which is bollocks... "theory at the time...?" from where?.. by whom?.. you are obviously so far up the conspiracy theorists arses, you've lost all track of what is real and what isn't.

What Conspiracy Theorists do with testimony that unequivocally refers to a plane hitting the Pentagon is to take a phrase like "I looked out my window and I saw this plane, this jet, an American Airlines jet, coming. And I thought, 'This doesn't add up, it's really low.' "And I saw it. I mean it was like a cruise missile with wings" and only use the "cruise missile" bit of it.

There are photographs of the debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, photographs of the debris inside including seats that still had bodies in them. The pattern of destruction fits exactly the pattern of destructio that would be caused by an airliner hitting the building.

A very good reconstruction of the plane hitting the building here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDdjLQkUV8

[kesey]

reconstruction

 

[bigbonedrawky]

No I haven't looked very hard Allan I always presumed a video of the incidents would one day emerge or be released in 2031.
I've seen the damage but I've never seen actual video of either of the events and as a wise man once said:  As a general note it's worth noting eye witness testimony is among the worst in terms of accuracy...

[Alan_X]

No I haven't looked very hard Allan I always presumed a video of the incidents would one day emerge or be released in 2031.
I've seen the damage but I've never seen actual video of either of the events and as a wise man once said:  As a general note it's worth noting eye witness testimony is among the worst in terms of accuracy...

It's true that uncoroborated eye witness testimony is poor in terms of accuracy. The eye-witness testimony I quoted shows that, with people trying to reconstruct exactly what kind of plane it was based on a few seconds of observatio. That's the kind of anomaly that conspiracy theories breed on.

But the sheer quantity of eye-witnesses who all saw 'a plane' hit the pentagon is supported by the physical evidence (the wreckage of the American Airlines plane and the damage to the building), the scientific and engineering analysis showing how the structure of the Pentagon would behave in the event of a plane impact, the fact that an American Airlines plane matching the wreckage took off and 'disappeared' with a passengers whose remains and DNA was found in the Pentagon and of course two security videos that show the plane. The videos are not easy to interpret but they match all of the other evidence.

Apart from all of that evidence, you're right. There's no evidence at all.

Do you apply the 'I've never seen video footage' rule to all events including, say, the Kennedy Assassination? I haven't seen any video or film that supports the second shooter/grassy knoll theory. The only video I've see (the Zapruder film) shows the President clutching his neck and then the front of his head being blown away (exactly as has been demonstrated experimentally) by a bullet that entered the back of his skull. Saying 'back and the left' over and over again doesn't change the physics.

What scares me most about conspiracy thinking is that while otherwise decent people repeat the mantra that 'some conspiracies are real' the mindest that you can't trust evidence or the 'MSM' or 'science' plays directly into the hands of the right, who have weaponised conspiracy thinking. Trump, Brexit, anti-vaccination, the demonisation of Bill Gates and George Sorosare all rooted in or supported by conspiracy thinking. The dismissal of evidence in favour of 'feelings' and emotion. And the left are as susceptible - the non-existent Westmister paedophile ring for example. Even getting to the bizarre heights in Liverpool and London where 'powerful paedophiles' conspiracy thinking had mothers on the streets parroting far-right Pro-Trump QAnon conspiracies.

Conspiracy thinking offers a comfort blanket in a world that feels out of control. It provides a simple, ready-made answer to all the bad things that happen and if you read the right websites, follow the right Twitter feeds and join the right Facebook groups, it also allows you to be 'in the know' and not one of the sheeple.

[RainbowFlick]

It's about 90 minutes long, but highly recommend this read about the current conspiracy theory landscape. Very interesting.

https://medium.com/@nathanallebach/how-america-became-the-land-of-conspiracy-theories-7c8b0353c667

[Alan_X]

Thanks - will read that later.

[Fortneef]

Thoughts for the day

JFK was an ardent anti-communist, the idea that the military-industrial complex offed him for being a pinko is laughably naive and ignorant.

If the Moon landings were faked, yet capable of being rumbled as fakes, the Soviets would have screamed their lungs out at the lying capitalist swine.

For 9/11 Explosives AND hijackings is ludicrously overcomplicated and makes the conspirators simultaneously all powerful geniuses and bungling idiots .

[Alan_X]

Thoughts for the day

JFK was an ardent anti-communist, the idea that the military-industrial complex offed him for being a pinko is laughably naive and ignorant.

If the Moon landings were faked, yet capable of being rumbled as fakes, the Soviets would have screamed their lungs out at the lying capitalist swine.

For 9/11 Explosives AND hijackings is ludicrously overcomplicated and makes the conspirators simultaneously all powerful geniuses and bungling idiots .

It's like Scooby Doo on acid. Multi-million pound conspiracies involving hundreds, maybe thousands of conspirators and they can't stop giving themselves away to Scooby, Shaggy and the Mystery Machine...

[didi shamone]

It's like Scooby Doo on acid. Multi-million pound conspiracies involving hundreds, maybe thousands of conspirators and they can't stop giving themselves away to Scooby, Shaggy and the Mystery Machine...

I'm not having you debunk Scooby doo. You've gone too far sir.

[Durlmints]

Victims of Epstein made credible accusations against him. There was a police investigation. He was prosecuted. He was found guilty. How is any of that related to conspiracy theory?

Stop being a fucking dickhead.

I am obviously referring to the fact that BEFORE the accusations and police investigation, there was plenty about him online that at the time did NOT have mainstream acceptance. It now does. That is the whole point. It was a conspiracy theory. Prince Andrew meanwhile has not had any criminal punishment against him, so by your standards that must mean he's obviously 100% innocent. And then if it changes and he is found guilty, you can then switch sides of the fence like Peter Walton in a VAR check.

Ergo with Saville being covered up by the BBC. If you had claimed he was abusing young girls and the BBC was covering it up back in the 80s or 90s you'd have been a conspiracy theorist. You also would have been RIGHT though, which is my whole point. At least Savile was investigated in time and reported to the correct authorities, and is thankfully now serving his prison sentence at - oh whoops...

[Jiminy Cricket]

Stop being a fucking dickhead.

I am obviously referring to the fact that BEFORE the accusations and police investigation, there was plenty about him online that at the time did NOT have mainstream acceptance. It now does. That is the whole point. It was a conspiracy theory. Prince Andrew meanwhile has not had any criminal punishment against him, so by your standards that must mean he's obviously 100% innocent. And then if it changes and he is found guilty, you can then switch sides of the fence like Peter Walton in a VAR check.

Ergo with Saville being covered up by the BBC. If you had claimed he was abusing young girls and the BBC was covering it up back in the 80s or 90s you'd have been a conspiracy theorist. You also would have been RIGHT though, which is my whole point. At least Savile was investigated in time and reported to the correct authorities, and is thankfully now serving his prison sentence at - oh whoops...

Hi Durlmints,

Dickhead here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein#Legal_proceedings

To what "plenty online" do your refer before March 2005 when Epstein was first accused and the subsequent 13-month undercover investigation?

[bigbonedrawky]

Hi Durlmints,

Dickhead here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein#Legal_proceedings

To what "plenty online" do your refer before March 2005 when Epstein was first accused and the subsequent 13-month undercover investigation?

Epstein CTs go back to the 90s and Saville CTs go back to the 70s. No internet, no link, so it didn't happen...

I see another of my post's has disappeared into the ether...It's a conspiraceh by the NWO dude. 

Although I might of just forgot to click the post button. 

[Alan_X]

Epstein CTs go back to the 90s and Saville CTs go back to the 70s. No internet, no link, so it didn't happen...

I see another of my post's has disappeared into the ether...It's a conspiraceh by the NWO dude. 

Although I might of just forgot to click the post button. 

No deleted posts since August 23rd as far as I can see. 

[Alan_X]

Stop being a fucking dickhead.

I am obviously referring to the fact that BEFORE the accusations and police investigation, there was plenty about him online that at the time did NOT have mainstream acceptance. It now does. That is the whole point. It was a conspiracy theory. Prince Andrew meanwhile has not had any criminal punishment against him, so by your standards that must mean he's obviously 100% innocent. And then if it changes and he is found guilty, you can then switch sides of the fence like Peter Walton in a VAR check.

Ergo with Saville being covered up by the BBC. If you had claimed he was abusing young girls and the BBC was covering it up back in the 80s or 90s you'd have been a conspiracy theorist. You also would have been RIGHT though, which is my whole point. At least Savile was investigated in time and reported to the correct authorities, and is thankfully now serving his prison sentence at - oh whoops...

Before we end up going down the rabbit hole can we differentiate between a story that is covered up or not published for legal reasons and a conspiracy theory.

Epstein used influence to suppress the case against him.

Jimmy Saville was incredibly litigious and while he was alive, he could use the libel laws to cover up his behaviour.

Harvey Weinstein used his power and influence, together with the libel laws to keep his behaviour off the front pages.

All of those are examples (and there are many others) of influential people suppressing stories in the public domain. They weren't secret though - Epstein's private island being known as "Paedophile Island" demonstrates that.

And they are all separate instances. The grand conspiracy theory is that somehow all of these separate stories are evidence of a single 'high-level paedophile ring'.

Ergo with Saville being covered up by the BBC. If you had claimed he was abusing young girls and the BBC was covering it up back in the 80s or 90s you'd have been a conspiracy theorist. You also would have been RIGHT though, which is my whole point.

No, if you had claimed that he was abusing young girls you would have been sued.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/14/dominic-carman-jimmy-savile-and-my-father

The problem with the obsession about rich and famous paedophiles and the attempt to create some grand cover up of influential paedophiles and abusers is that it ignores the reality, which is that many people use their positions of trust and power to carry out child sexual abuse and most of them aren't rich and famous. To quote this Guardian story from February about child abuse in the 70s and 80s there are "...hundreds of offenders, including teachers, religious workers, youth and care workers, thought they had got away with their crimes..."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/05/police-uncovering-epidemic-of-child-abuse-in-1970s-and-80s

And while the rumours about Saville were true as you say, the rumours about Edward Heath, Harvey Proctor and others weren't. They were the fantasies of a man who used the idea that "if Saville was true, these other allegations must be true..." to get notoriety and for finacial gain.

And finally. Yes, abso-fucking-lutely is a person, any person, 100% innocent until proven guilty. Whoever they are. I had no time for Leo Brittan's politics but it was disgusting that his house was raided two months after his death while his widow was still grieving. Lord Brammall and Heath were both "100% innocent" to use your phrase.

One of the bravest things I've ever seen was Harvey Proctor (again, I despise his politics) readig out the allegations made against him. Allegations that were repeated 'on the internet' and on here but were utterly ridiculous when you hear them out loud:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=491&v=RLm7rdRBOF4&feature=emb_logo

(about 8 minutes in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm0abUBV2FA

Harvey Proctor

The former Conservative MP, 72, was alleged to have attended sexual abuse parties organised by a VIP paedophile ring and to have strangled a boy to death.

On another occasion, it was claimed, Proctor participated in the rape and fatal beating of a second boy. He was accused of threatening to cut off Carl Beech’s genitals with a penknife before allegedly being dissuaded by Ted Heath and then handing the weapon to Beech as a memento.

A third boy was alleged to have been killed in Kingston upon Thames, south-west London, in a staged hit-and-run on the orders of the paedophile ring.

Proctor’s home was raided and he was twice questioned by police over the allegations, which cost him his job, before being told in March 2016 he faced no further action. He is suing the Metropolitan police for £1m.

Proctor, who left the Commons in 1987 after pleading guilty to acts of gross indecency, told the Guardian: “This was like no other police operation or investigation ever. It was self-justification and it was a PR campaign and I got caught up in all of it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/22/operation-midland-four-top-public-figures-falsely-accused-by-nick

He almost certainly was accused because he was a homosexual who committed offences that are no longer illegal.

[So… Howard Philips]

Alan - Cyril Smith was another who used his political position to cover up his abuse of care home residents.