Author Topic: China - a Fascist State  (Read 75348 times)

Offline Flinstone

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China - a Fascist State
« on: February 20, 2018, 02:13:59 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/18/china-great-leap-forward-science-research-innovation-investment-5g-genetics-quantum-internet

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Despite this apparently collaborative spirit, China’s space ambitions evoke the pioneering maritime voyages of Zheng He in the 15th century, which some historians today regard as a way of asserting the “soft power” and heavenly rule of the Ming emperor. Nothing like Zheng He’s “treasure ships” had ever been seen on the oceans before: they dwarfed the vessels in which Europeans like Vasco da Gama explored the world. Many are now wondering whether, in science and technology, those times are returning.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 08:52:02 pm by John C »
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2018, 02:35:56 pm »
"The ultimate aim is to develop a homegrown, innovative research environment, says Mu-Ming Poo"

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2018, 06:47:59 pm »
There is no doubt China will continue to become more important. In pretty much every field. Including space. They are everywhere already. Personally I believe space is best suited for working together, but when you can go your own way, like China, then you will want to do that. If for no other reason than to show that you can.

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2018, 09:59:44 pm »
Errrrrrrr, is the author aware that loads of people died in version 1?
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2018, 01:07:23 am »
Errrrrrrr, is the author aware that loads of people died in version 1?

Errrrrr, yes and that happened a while back in a different time.

This is in a time when the Belt and Road Initiative looks to completely dwarf the Marshall Plan is size, influence, reach and ambition. A Chinese led global order is coming
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2018, 01:39:44 am »
Errrrrr, yes and that happened a while back in a different time.

This is in a time when the Belt and Road Initiative looks to completely dwarf the Marshall Plan is size, influence, reach and ambition. A Chinese led global order is coming

I wouldn't be so sure. Their science output is great but the quality is poor. There is far too much of me-too and me-better type stuff coming out of China and the issue they suffer from is that the path to get to their lead in terms of scientific output is not conducive to transitioning into a country that produces very high-quality science. They suffer from significant brain drain and while a part of the researchers that go abroad to the EU and US to grow their careers do return, many of them don't. China is growing and they will certainly grow to challenge the US hegemony over the global order, but I don't think it is as sure a thing you suggest.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2018, 02:54:40 am »
but I don't think it is as sure a thing you suggest.

I think it is the surest thing you can bet on.

It is not surprising at all that the output is not as quality focused yet, You've got to build the foundations before you try and build the skyscraper but those kind of arguments that Westerners used to make as early as 5 years ago "They can copy but can they innovate" or "They are just making cheap products using low end manufacturing".

Now, they are producing products that have 90% of the quality of the worlds finest at 50 % of the price. Chinese phones are found throughout the world from Myanmar to Africa including India. The other day I caught an Uber here in Sydney where the dude was driving an SUV called 'The Great Wall'. You can guess where it was from and dude was chuffed with it.

Then there is the fact that they have absolutely smashed American military superiority in the Pacific and are indigenously building 5'th gen aircrafts. 'Brain Drain' appears to be have a negligible negative impact in the long run for both India and China, while it is obviously not a good thing both China and India are still growing at enviable rates and when projected over a time - line of 50-100 years it ceases to matter that much.

The Question now should not be 'Are they going to challenge?' but what kind of China will it be? The social commentry from Black Panther would have been much more apt for China now, will they like the rest of the 'third world' grow up with a chip on their shoulder against the West for past atrocities or will they shrug their shoulders and let bygones be bygones. Surely the inherent superiority complex that Westerners have will not help and more importantly their influence over the third world will be the defining story of our lifetime.

65 years back the emerging world looked towards people like Che Guevara, Gamal Abdel Naseer and Nehru to lead and now China has left all of those countries in their dust. Their influence is being felt strongly in immigrant countries like Canada and Australia already and it is only going to increase from here.

Let me just be the first to say that I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords. Here's to a better future!!
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 02:57:28 am »
I just hope they don't all leap at the exact same time.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2018, 03:17:39 am »
I just hope they don't all leap at the exact same time.

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2018, 05:15:46 am »
I think it is the surest thing you can bet on.

It is not surprising at all that the output is not as quality focused yet, You've got to build the foundations before you try and build the skyscraper but those kind of arguments that Westerners used to make as early as 5 years ago "They can copy but can they innovate" or "They are just making cheap products using low end manufacturing".

Now, they are producing products that have 90% of the quality of the worlds finest at 50 % of the price. Chinese phones are found throughout the world from Myanmar to Africa including India. The other day I caught an Uber here in Sydney where the dude was driving an SUV called 'The Great Wall'. You can guess where it was from and dude was chuffed with it.

Then there is the fact that they have absolutely smashed American military superiority in the Pacific and are indigenously building 5'th gen aircrafts. 'Brain Drain' appears to be have a negligible negative impact in the long run for both India and China, while it is obviously not a good thing both China and India are still growing at enviable rates and when projected over a time - line of 50-100 years it ceases to matter that much.

The Question now should not be 'Are they going to challenge?' but what kind of China will it be? The social commentry from Black Panther would have been much more apt for China now, will they like the rest of the 'third world' grow up with a chip on their shoulder against the West for past atrocities or will they shrug their shoulders and let bygones be bygones. Surely the inherent superiority complex that Westerners have will not help and more importantly their influence over the third world will be the defining story of our lifetime.

65 years back the emerging world looked towards people like Che Guevara, Gamal Abdel Naseer and Nehru to lead and now China has left all of those countries in their dust. Their influence is being felt strongly in immigrant countries like Canada and Australia already and it is only going to increase from here.

Let me just be the first to say that I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords. Here's to a better future!!


The point about them not innovating is tied to their education system, which is built on rote learning. And you'll always find the really brilliant ones that shine through regardless of the system they come through but the engine of an economy aren't the outliers but those that make up the bulk of it. And China continues to struggle to make a mark on innovation indexes because of that.


They might produce a hell of a lot of papers but their retraction rate and the rate of fraud is extremely high. Here's a link citing retraction watch: https://qz.com/978037/china-publishes-more-science-research-with-fabricated-peer-review-than-everyone-else-put-together/


Chinese companies are making the foray into the global market now but their market share is tiny compared to global players including the likes of South Korea's Samsung, who are one of the true innovation powerhouses of the world.


Growth rate is not a measure of whether or not brain drain affects a country. Globally, we're moving towards a high-tech economy. China is definitely upped its manufacturing ante but it remains behind on the innovation stakes. It might take another 20/30 years before they get that right but by then the megatrends would have changed and they'll be catching up again though the gap won't be as large. I don't doubt they'll grow into a major player but Chinese companies remain built on local demand driven by protectionist economic policy. I don't think this is wrong or undesirable from China's point of view. But that means that it will be a while before they can play on the global scale.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2018, 07:43:45 am »

The point about them not innovating is tied to their education system, which is built on rote learning. And you'll always find the really brilliant ones that shine through regardless of the system they come through but the engine of an economy aren't the outliers but those that make up the bulk of it. And China continues to struggle to make a mark on innovation indexes because of that.


They might produce a hell of a lot of papers but their retraction rate and the rate of fraud is extremely high. Here's a link citing retraction watch: https://qz.com/978037/china-publishes-more-science-research-with-fabricated-peer-review-than-everyone-else-put-together/


Chinese companies are making the foray into the global market now but their market share is tiny compared to global players including the likes of South Korea's Samsung, who are one of the true innovation powerhouses of the world.


Growth rate is not a measure of whether or not brain drain affects a country. Globally, we're moving towards a high-tech economy. China is definitely upped its manufacturing ante but it remains behind on the innovation stakes. It might take another 20/30 years before they get that right but by then the megatrends would have changed and they'll be catching up again though the gap won't be as large. I don't doubt they'll grow into a major player but Chinese companies remain built on local demand driven by protectionist economic policy. I don't think this is wrong or undesirable from China's point of view. But that means that it will be a while before they can play on the global scale.

The point of this post was not to say that China is ahead now though I can see why you inferred that from the article. Yes, there is a gap but there is simply no scenario barring a black swan that China does not bridge this gap within the next 30 years just as they have done in so many other areas. The greatest job generator for the next century will be Artificial Intelligence and China is second to none in that field.

They have the most sophisticated streamlined data sources in the world,  facial recognition by law enforcement was trialed recently in China for the first time and Tenecent, Baidu and Alibaba are going to be serious players going forward.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/china-determined-to-match-western-competitors-in-ai/9357048


No it is clear that Brain Drain affects a country but as long as growth metrics and say per capita income for the poorest 10 % of the country are increasing then compounded over a long enough timeline it becomes irrelevant. European brain drain to American ultimately did not stop them from reaching American standard of living. As for rote learning I am ambiguous about it, as you say the cream of the crop start to shine regardless of system and while it is obviously preferable for the system to encourage critical thinking you look at some of the degrees people pursue in the West like 'Plant based nutrition' or 'Political Science' and it probably better to have rote based engineers that can contribute to the economy in tangible terms for emerging nations.

Then there are the myriad of other questions that make this fascinating, they have become the most influential country in Africa bar none and so far even though the relationship is much more equal than the Wests disastrous stint in Africa it is still somewhat a form of neo-colonialism. The workers are Chinese not African, a large portion of the money is moving back to China but still many African nations are enthusiastic about working with the Chinese and we are seeing flickering signs of Africa influencing mainstream Chinese culture.

Then there is also the question as to how they will influence the world in terms of soft power. They already own Hollywood and the smash hit Wolf Warriors 2 provided an interesting insight into their thought process, After the White antagonist sneers at the Chinese lead calling him 'inferior' , the Chinese guy beats him to death and smirks with a response 'That was history'. This is a powerful message that has the potential to reverberate across all emerging countries from India to the Congo.

Lee Kuan Yew summed it up best :

Quote
Today, China is growing at rates unimaginable 50 years ago, a dramatic transformation no one predicted. The Chinese people have raised their expectations and aspirations. Every Chinese wants a strong and rich China, a nation as prosperous, advanced, and technologically competent as America, Europe, and Japan. This reawakened sense of destiny is an overpowering force

For America to be displaced, not in the world, but only in the western Pacific, by an Asian people long despised and dismissed with contempt as decadent, feeble, corrupt, and inept is emotionally very difficult to accept. The sense of cultural supremacy of the Americans will make this adjustment most difficult. Americans believe their ideas are universal -- the supremacy of the individual and free, unfettered expression. But they are not -- never were.

Quote
The United States cannot stop China's rise. It just has to live with a bigger China, which will be completely novel for the United States, as no country has ever been big enough to challenge its position. China will be able to do so in 20 or 30 years. Americans have to eventually share their preeminent position with China.

The size of China's displacement of the world balance is such that the world must find a new balance. It is not possible to pretend that this is just another big player. This is the biggest player in the history of the world.

They have comprehensively thrown down a marker and set the pace for the emerging world. Right now most countries have to look at them and say 'Hang on a second, this is working', Another fast emerging country Vietnam follows a variation of their system even if they are at loggerheads with each other. Even Russia have now ceded ground and defer to the Chinese.

I don't understand why Modi and his brain-dead ilk are antagonizing them in Doklam. Why do we provide refuge to the Dalai Lama? What benefit is it of to us? We need to seriously start working with them on a meaningful level so that we can thrive together
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 08:03:56 am by Flinstone »
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2018, 09:54:11 am »
https://www.economist.com/news/china/21737074-some-technologies-it-has-surpassed-it-china-will-soon-have-air-power-rivalling-wests

Right on time. I swear I just saw this article , like 2 seconds back.

It’s on the economist front page
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 10:06:52 am »
The point of this post was not to say that China is ahead now though I can see why you inferred that from the article. Yes, there is a gap but there is simply no scenario barring a black swan that China does not bridge this gap within the next 30 years just as they have done in so many other areas. The greatest job generator for the next century will be Artificial Intelligence and China is second to none in that field.

They have the most sophisticated streamlined data sources in the world,  facial recognition by law enforcement was trialed recently in China for the first time and Tenecent, Baidu and Alibaba are going to be serious players going forward.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/china-determined-to-match-western-competitors-in-ai/9357048


No it is clear that Brain Drain affects a country but as long as growth metrics and say per capita income for the poorest 10 % of the country are increasing then compounded over a long enough timeline it becomes irrelevant. European brain drain to American ultimately did not stop them from reaching American standard of living. As for rote learning I am ambiguous about it, as you say the cream of the crop start to shine regardless of system and while it is obviously preferable for the system to encourage critical thinking you look at some of the degrees people pursue in the West like 'Plant based nutrition' or 'Political Science' and it probably better to have rote based engineers that can contribute to the economy in tangible terms for emerging nations.

Then there are the myriad of other questions that make this fascinating, they have become the most influential country in Africa bar none and so far even though the relationship is much more equal than the Wests disastrous stint in Africa it is still somewhat a form of neo-colonialism. The workers are Chinese not African, a large portion of the money is moving back to China but still many African nations are enthusiastic about working with the Chinese and we are seeing flickering signs of Africa influencing mainstream Chinese culture.

Then there is also the question as to how they will influence the world in terms of soft power. They already own Hollywood and the smash hit Wolf Warriors 2 provided an interesting insight into their thought process, After the White antagonist sneers at the Chinese lead calling him 'inferior' , the Chinese guy beats him to death and smirks with a response 'That was history'. This is a powerful message that has the potential to reverberate across all emerging countries from India to the Congo.

Lee Kuan Yew summed it up best :

They have comprehensively thrown down a marker and set the pace for the emerging world. Right now most countries have to look at them and say 'Hang on a second, this is working', Another fast emerging country Vietnam follows a variation of their system even if they are at loggerheads with each other. Even Russia have now ceded ground and defer to the Chinese.

I don't understand why Modi and his brain-dead ilk are antagonizing them in Doklam. Why do we provide refuge to the Dalai Lama? What benefit is it of to us? We need to seriously start working with them on a meaningful level so that we can thrive together


Firstly, China is really strong in AI, but AI isn't going to be the greatest job creator of the next 30 years. It's the opposite. It will decimate jobs, particularly in manufacturing. This is one of the reasons why China is now hastily changing its national agenda to move towards a tech-driven economy. But this is also why a manufacturing-driven economy will have a massive task in adapting. Of course, in China, the government is likely to crack the whip and keep people employed in bogus jobs and refuse to release actual jobs data or release heavily manipulated data as they already do.

European brain drain cannot be compared in anyway to brain drain from other continents. It does not happen on anywhere near the same scale. And a much smaller percentage end up naturalising. I can't find the data now but the rates of naturalisation in the US are highest in Latin American and Asian migrants such as those from India and China. Brain drain has other benefits to the country that loses people, primarily in the form of high value remittances and there are certainly other associated benefits. Therefore, it is by no means a total negative. But it is not the best situation for fostering innovation, which is what we are discussing here. If and when, AI truly comes to life, jobs will increasingly rely on the things that are considered "soft skills" and creativity. Best of luck getting a workforce of 807 million retraining their entire way of thinking. I have long been a critic of academic culture in western universities, particularly in some of the social sciences and humanities, but while there are plenty of crazies, there are many highly intelligent people that are working on very challenging problems. Ironically, they are now being hired by really large tech companies as they bring a level of lateral thinking that we have to achieve with AI.


China's actions in Africa and Latin America is entirely colonial. It's more East India company than the empire, but the end result is pretty much the same. This is not a positive and there is already quite a bit of anger in both Latin America and Africa about China's activities there. I think this report is a very nice summary of China's modus operandi. Given what has happened in the past across the world, replacing one colonial era with another is not a positive at all.


https://nacla.org/blog/2017/08/11/financial-sovereignty-or-new-dependency-how-china-remaking-bolivia


China has been using its soft power at the expense of its neighbours for a while now. Chinese new year is really the lunar new year and is celebrated by people all the way from Thailand to Japan. Again, I don't think it is a positive.


There are two things here from my view. 1. Can China bridge the gap to the top? Over a long period of time, yes, I think they will. As the world globalises more, it is inevitable that boundaries are broken down and there will be an inevitable evening out. That is a good thing. I'm very happy for the average Chinese person that their country is making great strides in alleviating poverty and long may that continue. But I don't think China will dominate global order singularly although they will try to and they have every intention to do so. And I don't think China should dominate the globe either. Or for that matter, any one country.


2. If they do that, I don't expect to see a very happy planet. And that's not because of the West's superiority complex, but because it is objectively a terrible thing for one country to hog power. Particularly a country where its citizens receive state sanctioned news that sometimes is the opposite of what every neutral source from around the rest of the world says. For example, see the Falun Gong case. Look at the Chinese view and contrast that with reportage on the Falun Gong from every other part of the world.


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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 11:20:15 am »

Firstly, China is really strong in AI, but AI isn't going to be the greatest job creator of the next 30 years. It's the opposite. It will decimate jobs, particularly in manufacturing. This is one of the reasons why China is now hastily changing its national agenda to move towards a tech-driven economy.

No, that is automation. At a low level 'Data Scientists' and all the supporting jobs that go with it are the jobs that are being created at the fastest rate now (even in a non-innovating country like Australia) and at a high level for people who understand something as basic as neural networks can ask for whatever salaries they want since the supply is so low. These jobs are going to multiply faster now as AI makes it's presence felt across all sectors and AI will only 'decimate' jobs to the level where we need to implement UBI when they learn to live and process information like a human which is a solid 100 years away.

This field can be to nations what Industrialization was to the West.

European brain drain cannot be compared

I was talking about the time when people were fleeing Europe to start a life in America. All of them were naturalised and became 'American'. Of course it is a different story now.


Chinese prescense in Africa is nothing like the East India company. The East India company amassed a private army, declared war on Kingdoms and resorted to coercion, violence and what not before giving way for the empire. For the Chinese it is simply business driven out of self-interest and these leaders negotiating with them are free to say no if they want.

To quote Xi Jinping

Quote
Some foreigners with full bellies and nothing better to do engage in finger-pointing at us. First, China does not export revolution; second, it does not export famine and poverty; and third, it does not mess around with you. So what else is there to say?

Anyway, we will see what the future has in store I suppose
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 12:17:33 pm »
No, that is automation. At a low level 'Data Scientists' and all the supporting jobs that go with it are the jobs that are being created at the fastest rate now (even in a non-innovating country like Australia) and at a high level for people who understand something as basic as neural networks can ask for whatever salaries they want since the supply is so low. These jobs are going to multiply faster now as AI makes it's presence felt across all sectors and AI will only 'decimate' jobs to the level where we need to implement UBI when they learn to live and process information like a human which is a solid 100 years away.

This field can be to nations what Industrialization was to the West.

I was talking about the time when people were fleeing Europe to start a life in America. All of them were naturalised and became 'American'. Of course it is a different story now.


Chinese prescense in Africa is nothing like the East India company. The East India company amassed a private army, declared war on Kingdoms and resorted to coercion, violence and what not before giving way for the empire. For the Chinese it is simply business driven out of self-interest and these leaders negotiating with them are free to say no if they want.

To quote Xi Jinping

Anyway, we will see what the future has in store I suppose

I don't think you can isolate automation from AI given much of the newer generation of automation will be guided by AI. Secondly, Google are already building AI systems that train other AI systems. It is true that AI experts are the new software engineers of the 90's now but if that kind of technology that Google is developing takes off, that won't be the case for very long. I'm not sure it'll take a 100 years to get to a massive level of penetration for AI. A third that would be my guess although I think we'll never make AI that can truly think the way we do until we understand exactly how humans think and that's a challenge to say the least. China are second to none in AI but the US is incredibly strong and much as China continue to make inroads, the US and the EU are miles ahead in terms of the quality of their output. Switzerland and Sweden are from memory the countries that produce the most cutting-edge science per capita as measured by the impact of their publications.

European migration that happened 200 years ago cannot be compared to modern brain drain. For one thing, it was nothing like a brain drain. The migration there was dominated by working class folks moving over to better their lives. A better comparison would be to the migrant labourers in the middle east though the situation is obviously nowhere near as extreme.

China don't need to declare war on kingdoms or assemble a private army. They use their might to bend the rules already and have obviously learnt from the past, and are more sneaky about what they do. Their loan program has been widely condemned as being unfavourable because they knowingly give out bad loans, particularly for critical infrastructure projects, that are then contracted to a Chinese company that uses Chinese workers and when the project fails a few years down the line as it is a white elephant, China then converts existing debt to equity. Suddenly, they own a crucial bit of infrastructure. Here is a classic example, https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/chinas-jewel-in-the-heart-of-the-indian-ocean/

Xi Jinping's right about not exporting revolution, but that is only because they're doing their absolute best to prevent any flints of revolution within China. They certainly will end up causing and currently exploit poverty with the way they are playing the resources game at the moment and they are obviously they're messing around with a lot of countries.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 01:05:08 pm »
Of course they are bending the rules, the West forced their 'rules' by pointing the gun at people they were 'negotiating' with. China is doing what is best for China but they are not so crude or violent about it.

As that very article noted the developing world needs capital, China is providing it and it is up to these countries to negotiate terms that are favorable to them. No nation will act in a purely altruistic manner, not after all the blood that's been spilled.

No that is a flimsy rebuttal of Jinpings statement. The Americans were exporting revolution in Latin America even while suppressing the civil rights movement and infiltrating the Black Panther Party. They do not export revolution because they cast no judgement on other nations systems and simply prefer to see things in terms of cold hard facts like the benefits it brings or the money it generates.

Anyway we will revisit this in 10, 20 and 30 years. I'm going all in on the Chinese and I hope we build a long and fruitful relationship with them


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Offline Lotus Eater

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2018, 12:04:02 am »
I don't understand why Modi and his brain-dead ilk are antagonizing them in Doklam. Why do we provide refuge to the Dalai Lama? What benefit is it of to us? We need to seriously start working with them on a meaningful level so that we can thrive together

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2018, 02:07:31 am »
As long as 'business' improves the lives of people who are literally eating dirt into more humane conditions and improves literacy, life expectancy and a tangible better future then 'business' trumps 'human rights' all day everyday.

While I am sympathetic to the Tibetian cause for a separate homeland the fact of the matter is it is now a pipe dream unless they abandon their philosophy and pick up arms to fight for their cause which doesn't look like it will happen. If the Dalai Lamas main concern is preserving the Buddhist culture then there are ways to streamline Buddhist thought into the educational system and make sure it is passed down and perhaps even expanded but if he has to be sacrificed for the greater good involving better relations that would improve the lives of both citizens then that is what it has to be.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2018, 12:08:02 am »
I’ve enjoyed reading this thread,  nice work from Flinstone & Jooney in particular.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2018, 08:05:53 am »

To quote Xi Jinping

Some foreigners with full bellies and nothing better to do engage in finger-pointing at us. First, China does not export revolution; second, it does not export famine and poverty; and third, it does not mess around with you. So what else is there to say?


It's easy to understand China's frustration. Why should China and others not be allowed to go down the same path as the West have done to improve lives for the population?

But I don't believe Jinping when it's claimed that China don't mess around with you. Of course they do and of course they will. It's a given that people who gain power will use it to their advantage. In China's case they have felt inferior to the West for a very long time. They are looking for revenge, or at least to get back to what they see as their rightful position as a nation. That will be seen as a threat to nations who are powerful today.

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Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2018, 10:00:05 pm »
Robert Kagan presents the neocon position that China must be dealt with sooner rather than later.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/06/backing-into-world-war-iii-russia-china-trump-obama/

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Offline Mimi

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2018, 12:45:37 am »
While I am sympathetic to the Tibetian cause for a separate homeland the fact of the matter is it is now a pipe dream unless they abandon their philosophy and pick up arms to fight for their cause which doesn't look like it will happen. If the Dalai Lamas main concern is preserving the Buddhist culture then there are ways to streamline Buddhist thought into the educational system and make sure it is passed down and perhaps even expanded but if he has to be sacrificed for the greater good involving better relations that would improve the lives of both citizens then that is what it has to be.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. China "expanding" Buddhist thought - what does that even mean?

There is no greater good - unless you're counting the sheer number of Chinese as opposed to Tibetans - for what has happened in Tibet. Tibet is being strip mined of its resources by China - no different than what happened between the various European countries when they went into the African continent.

What do you make of Xi Jinping's decision to remove presidential term limits?

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2018, 01:33:26 am »
I’ve enjoyed reading this thread,  nice work from Flinstone & Jooney in particular.

Yeah good debate here with lots of info, cheers lads :)
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2018, 01:56:48 am »
Sorry, but that is nonsense. China "expanding" Buddhist thought - what does that even mean?

There is no greater good - unless you're counting the sheer number of Chinese as opposed to Tibetans - for what has happened in Tibet. Tibet is being strip mined of its resources by China - no different than what happened between the various European countries when they went into the African continent.

What do you make of Xi Jinping's decision to remove presidential term limits?

Not China, India. The Lama is living in India and Tibetians make the trek across to seek refuge in Himachal Pradesh which became a sore spot in Sino - Indian relations and was one of the reasons behind the meaningless Sino - Indian war of '62.

For India if returning the Lama and closing of the borders to Tibetians ensures reciprocation in terms of halting Chinese exchange of military hardware and software to Pakistan and mutually beneficial increased economic co-operation that as heartless as it sounds there is a case to be made for the 'greater good'.

I don't have any opinion on it. For me, the CCP while having its faults and plagued with corruption or what not has consistently delivered on its pledge to undo the 'century of humiliation' and objectively speaking no other party, leader or system has improved the lives of the people they serve in such a short period of time in history. If they have decided this is the way forward for them then so be it.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 02:13:53 am by Flinstone »
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2018, 11:54:03 am »
its pledge to undo the 'century of humiliation'

That's definitely not scary rhetoric.

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2018, 02:12:11 pm »
objectively speaking no other party, leader or system has improved the lives of the people they serve in such a short period of time in history. If they have decided this is the way forward for them then so be it.

Jumping junipers you're not half scary!!!  Maybe I'm being sensitive, but you seem reallllllly up for China toppling western leadership and, ya know, democracy and the like.  Maybe I'm misreading your statements and you're just "objectively" reading the tea leaves, in which case my argument loses most of my steam because I do agree with you- China world pre-eminence is almost a certainty.

To be clear you're talking about an autocratic regime who maintains State control over free speech, free movement, etc.  Human Rights?  That's for the other guy.  Some citizens have gotten fabulously wealthy and China is no longer a docile actor on the world stage, Chinese corporations are now world players, etc., I agree with those points.  But to say they have improved the lives of the people they serve......you might want to do some reading.  If you have sources or reading that might educate me on your opposing viewpoint I'd be eager to read them, and cheers for your posts in here.

Autocracies and dictatorships collapse, it is inevitable.  I think, due in part to Trump, Putin, and rising nationalism in areas of the world (cough USA cough USA, but also much of Europe), China is extremely well poised to become the world's superpower.  America and NATO are handing them global soft power hand over fist, but are we 100% confident that moves like Xi saying "President for Life, no takebacks!", cumulatively over time, might not create the bed for revolution in China?
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #26 on: March 5, 2018, 06:18:08 pm »
Interesting update from Ian Bremmer of Eurasia Group:

for the last 40 years, one of the west’s most widely-held (and yet thoroughly untested) presumptions was that china would need to politically reform as it transitioned to a middle income country... or else it would fail. xi jinping's decision to change the country's constitution—in place since 1982—thereby opening the way for him to become the country's president for life should definitively put to rest that notion. xi has sidelined all major domestic opposition (or worse); the country's economic, political, foreign policy, and ideological priorities are now firmly aligned with the chinese president (there's really no alternative vision or worldview among chinese leadership today); and there's a clear path of political stability going forward.


a few implications:


1. the chinese people's daily was unusually defensive in reporting the move, explaining how the decision was necessary to harmonize with the communist party constitution (where there are no such term limits on the general secretary), and explicitly saying the change doesn't necessarily mean that xi jinping is president for life. the chinese state media rarely feels the need to justify itself; there was clearly significant/high-level internal pushback as a result of the move.


2. xi jinping's willingness to take major risks is increasing with his power. there's been a presumption in the western press that the chinese president is an incrementalist; but while he's one of the most strategic/long-term thinkers among the world's leaders today, xi has also shown a willingness to make bold and sudden moves when the opportunities present themselves. that was the case with broad shakeup of the central military commission in the run-up to the 19th party congress (in response to rumors of disloyalty at the top); it's true of what's been an expanding anti-corruption campaign; and it's clearly true of the decision to extend his rule.


3. the united states (and the west more broadly) will now face a more challenging negotiating environment. westerners that hoped for closer partnership with beijing have been able to build connections with reform-oriented chinese of various stripes: technocrats in the finance ministry, private sector entrepreneurs, journalists, former diplomats in the think tank community. the intention was that they would be able to work within the system to promote policies that eventually aligned their government more closely with a western-led international system. that strategy is far less likely to bear fruit now; both in terms of the comparative "independence" of would be chinese reformers, as well as their ability to influence what will become a much more top-down political process.


4. china will become a more closed political system. before xi's accession to the presidency, china had incrementally (albeit very slowly) opened up politically over the past 20 years. chinese entrepreneurs and intellectuals in particular had felt greater operating room. that was already open to growing doubt over the past years—corporations were reporting internal communist cells organizing and expanding to create new sets of workplace communications networks and policies inside their companies; western textbooks were becoming more uncommon in chinese classrooms. now western corporations will face more external constraints, especially with regard to domestic political priorities; media will face more scrutiny and censorship (formal and self-imposed); educational processes will be more tightly controlled.


5. chinese economic reform faces uncertainty. wang qishan and liu he, xi's critical managers of the chinese economy, have been strengthened by this governance change. but they're best seen as loyal and capable technocrats rather than reformers (and certainly not western reformers; "reform" in chinese parlance can mean liberalization but it can also mean increasing efficiency through more top-down control and the determination of strategic initiatives and sectors. much chinese economic "reform" as perceived by the west is presently stalled (financial sector reform, currency reform) or even backtracking (state owned enterprise reform; it sector reform and data regulations).


6. longer-term partnerships will become more challenging, but also more predictable. the rules of the road will shift more in favor of chinese champions, but with consolidation of power under xi, patronage networks will become more stratified and regularized. major state owned corporations, banks, governors and ministers from preferred provinces (as prioritized through the belt and road initiative) will become entrenched for the long term, as opposed to the in-fighting and ups and downs experienced by those in political favor under previous regimes.


for china's future, the notion of xi for life is a decidedly mixed blessing. china can now more easily continue long-term projects, including the development of long-term economic and technology strategy that will solidify beijing as a force for transformational change. it's a spur for growth and investment, and improves the trajectory of china's near-to-medium term global influence. china will become a clearer alternative to the us-led political and economic models of governance (irrespective of who is president post-trump), and will strengthen bilateral relationships with a broader group of countries around the world accordingly, while also antagonizing those whose values, economic systems, and security relationships are too misaligned to welcome a beijing umbrella.


but longer term, a far more uncertain eventual succession creates obvious risk. the personalization of power networks weakens the resilience of the chinese communist party and china's government institutions. that's a particular risk in the case of a sudden illness or xi's demise; but even with a more "managed" long-term transition (a la nazarbayev's kazakhstan, for example), it's a bigger challenge. the biggest question mark around authoritarian regimes remains sharp instability around sudden transitions; perhaps even more than china's economic miracle, the managing of the leadership succession process is arguably the greatest success of the world's most important authoritarian regime. that's now an open question.
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Offline Buggy Eyes Alfredo

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2020, 01:02:39 am »

The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) has now been signed. 2.2 billion people impacted and $26.2 trillion of global output. Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Cambodia, Myanmar, and Laos are all now represented. India balked at the idea and removed themselves from discussions last year.

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2020, 01:18:16 am »
The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) has now been signed. 2.2 billion people impacted and $26.2 trillion of global output. Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Cambodia, Myanmar, and Laos are all now represented. India balked at the idea and removed themselves from discussions last year.

It will account for 30 percent of the global economy.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2020, 10:11:07 am »
The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) has now been signed. 2.2 billion people impacted and $26.2 trillion of global output. Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Cambodia, Myanmar, and Laos are all now represented. India balked at the idea and removed themselves from discussions last year.

I dont think that was brilliant of Modi to be honest

Offline zadoktBeast

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #30 on: December 6, 2020, 12:11:57 am »
The Nazi party of China's goal is to rule the world financially, to become the World Bank (akin to the Trade Federation from Star Wars: the Phantom Menace - they aim to control and threaten other nations with financial muscle and thought censorship).

Let me preface this by saying I have enormous respect and admiration for ancient, traditional Chinese culture. The Needham question is fascinating and the wisdom of Lao Tzu predates all Western philosophy. However, the Maoists chopped the head and brain off China in their communist revolution - the effects were much more disastrous and catastrophic than the Bolshevik uprising in Russia.

Since then, the political class in Beijing has dismissed the ancient qualities of Chinese art and thought, in a desperate attempt to modernise and catch up with 'The West'. The result is a grotesque 1984 state which dehumanises, surveils and degrades the human spirit.

In my opinion the moniker of the 'century of shame' is a mistake, as there is certainly no shame attached to China for being colonised by European Imperial powers in the 19th century. If anything the shame should rest with the European Royals for greedily slicing up the pie. The shame of Beijing lies in what they are doing now: ethnic cleansing, cultural and linguistic destruction of the Manchu, the Hui, the Mongolians, the Tibetans and all other minorities who do not fit in with the vision of Han Chinese hegemony (not to mention the Cantonese of Hong Kong). Silencing and disappearing of lawyers, human rights activists, bookkeepers and thought criminals only augment  the echoes of 1930s Germany, and when you add concentration camps and forced labour into the mix then you know what you're dealing with.

CCP politicians now talk about 'Mutual Respect', but as a human being who loves freedom of thought and expression, I will say this:

For the virtues of Ancient China, endless respect.
For modern China, zero respect and zero chance of it ever arising.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #31 on: December 6, 2020, 08:57:09 am »
The right time for tackling China's ascent has passed, and now they are here to stay as a major global player. 

They have turned the West's thirst for rampant capitalism (cheap, massed produced goods) against them, by undercutting and swallowing up many primary and secondary industries.  Thus, getting very rich in the process.
« Last Edit: December 6, 2020, 03:57:11 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #32 on: December 6, 2020, 03:50:05 pm »
The Nazi party of China's goal is to rule the world financially, to become the World Bank (akin to the Trade Federation from Star Wars: the Phantom Menace - they aim to control and threaten other nations with financial muscle and thought censorship).

Let me preface this by saying I have enormous respect and admiration for ancient, traditional Chinese culture. The Needham question is fascinating and the wisdom of Lao Tzu predates all Western philosophy. However, the Maoists chopped the head and brain off China in their communist revolution - the effects were much more disastrous and catastrophic than the Bolshevik uprising in Russia.

Since then, the political class in Beijing has dismissed the ancient qualities of Chinese art and thought, in a desperate attempt to modernise and catch up with 'The West'. The result is a grotesque 1984 state which dehumanises, surveils and degrades the human spirit.

In my opinion the moniker of the 'century of shame' is a mistake, as there is certainly no shame attached to China for being colonised by European Imperial powers in the 19th century. If anything the shame should rest with the European Royals for greedily slicing up the pie. The shame of Beijing lies in what they are doing now: ethnic cleansing, cultural and linguistic destruction of the Manchu, the Hui, the Mongolians, the Tibetans and all other minorities who do not fit in with the vision of Han Chinese hegemony (not to mention the Cantonese of Hong Kong). Silencing and disappearing of lawyers, human rights activists, bookkeepers and thought criminals only augment  the echoes of 1930s Germany, and when you add concentration camps and forced labour into the mix then you know what you're dealing with.

CCP politicians now talk about 'Mutual Respect', but as a human being who loves freedom of thought and expression, I will say this:

For the virtues of Ancient China, endless respect.
For modern China, zero respect and zero chance of it ever arising.

Really thoughtful post, cheers
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Offline zadoktBeast

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #33 on: December 6, 2020, 06:12:10 pm »
The right time for tackling China's ascent has passed, and now they are here to stay as a major global player

I would be fine with this if they possessed a decent set of morals and values, and weren't trying to erode the principles of democracy and free speech in countries where they have influence. But they don't and they are.

They have turned the West's thirst for rampant capitalism (cheap, massed produced goods) against them, by undercutting and swallowing up many primary and secondary industries.  Thus, getting very rich in the process.

It's a good job they're rich, so they can pay the healthcare costs of all the chronic lung conditions and ground-glass opacity sufferers around the world, for decades to come

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #34 on: December 6, 2020, 06:33:33 pm »
I would be fine with this if they possessed a decent set of morals and values, and weren't trying to erode the principles of democracy and free speech in countries where they have influence. But they don't and they are.

It's a good job they're rich, so they can pay the healthcare costs of all the chronic lung conditions and ground-glass opacity sufferers around the world, for decades to come



They've caused less trouble and strife around the world than the likes of us and the Yanks.
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Offline zadoktBeast

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #35 on: December 6, 2020, 10:06:08 pm »


They've caused less trouble and strife around the world than the likes of us and the Yanks.

Not true in the 20th Century: look at the invasion of Tibet and Tiananmen Square (and recently Hong Kong).

It's true that the traditional Chinese viewpoint is inward-looking; the wall was built as much to keep Chinese in as keeping invaders out. Traditionally the Chinese were not interested in establishing colonies or empires abroad (and they say this is still their stance). But the CCP view now is that their isolated past was a mistake, to be regarded with regret - it led to stagnation and allowed distant civilizations in Europe to overtake them.

They feel like they missed their chance at having an Empire, and are due it now. Make no mistake, they are now very much interested in copying the American/European model and subjugating foreign nations - just ask Vietnam, South Korea, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Thailand and Taiwan. Further afield they have been trying to infiltrate and control politics in Africa for the last two decades.

You can't really begrudge them their shot at an empire to be honest; except that, as a country that doesn't believe in human rights, the values and models they will export are horrific

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #36 on: December 6, 2020, 10:07:27 pm »
Not true in your opinion,totally true when taking into account all the facts.


It's obvious where you get your information from & it isn't from history.
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Offline zadoktBeast

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #37 on: December 7, 2020, 12:58:09 am »
Not true in your opinion,totally true when taking into account all the facts.


It's obvious where you get your information from & it isn't from history.

Where do I get my information from?

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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #38 on: December 7, 2020, 01:49:29 am »
Where do I get my information from?


The Great Big Book Of Wrong by the look of it.
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Re: Chinas great leap forward - version 2
« Reply #39 on: December 7, 2020, 02:15:56 pm »


Jesus Christ

You do realise that the people in charge are still humans not some robot overlords. Why are you giving them credit with making rational decisions but not letting other humans make theirs? Because of a few years unrest? Brexit? Trump? These things self-correct over time. Authoritarianism has not and will never succeed on the global stage. It is built on a rotten foundation that will undermine and collapse it eventually.

But you're willing to, what, just hand over all your rights and freedoms for this concentration camp utopia?

'Liberal democracy' has brought most of the world out of completely abject poverty and lengthened the average lifespan of our species dramatically, whilst advancing our understanding of the world around us and the complexities of the biology within us to a level never before experienced. It's allowing you to spend your time writing horseshit on a football forum instead of being worked to death in a slave-labour camp.
« Last Edit: December 7, 2020, 08:04:49 pm by Xmas Drama? Tit-job Camara! »
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