Author Topic: What's up with Turkey?  (Read 20232 times)

Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Offline classycarra

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2019, 12:11:32 pm »
Not related to posters on here, and more of a US thing than European, but I really fucking hate this angle that the Kurds should be defended from sectarian slaughter because they fight ISIS for us.

For a start if certain western governments (lets say the UK) seriously gave a fuck about this, they'd have taken their problems and their citizens off the kurds hands long ago, and provided their resources to help support this here and over there. Rather than washing their hands of any complexity and leaving it as something for a group that are literally existentially threatened to handle.

Also, I think it raises this really ugly and transactional and selfish perspective. We should give a fuck because we don't want the Kurds to be slaughtered, not because their slaughtering might also lead to the freeing of a fair few islamists to then possibly try to kill people in the UK, Spain, France and Germany.

Offline redmark

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2019, 12:19:36 pm »
Not related to posters on here, and more of a US thing than European, but I really fucking hate this angle that the Kurds should be defended from sectarian slaughter because they fight ISIS for us.

For a start if certain western governments (lets say the UK) seriously gave a fuck about this, they'd have taken their problems and their citizens off the kurds hands long ago, and provided their resources to help support this here and over there. Rather than washing their hands of any complexity and leaving it as something for a group that are literally existentially threatened to handle.

Also, I think it raises this really ugly and transactional and selfish perspective. We should give a fuck because we don't want the Kurds to be slaughtered, not because their slaughtering might also lead to the freeing of a fair few islamists to then possibly try to kill people in the UK, Spain, France and Germany.
Yeah, even without the idea of ISIS fighters getting freed from prison, there has been a weird narrative that we should oppose the Turkish actions because the Kurds are brave allies and have therefore earned the right not to be attacked by a supposedly civilised country across an international border.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2019, 08:16:54 pm »
Newsweek is reporting that Turkey bombed US special forces in Syria “by accident.”

https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true
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Offline redmark

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2019, 12:44:08 am »
Reports of executions of Kurdish civilians and political figures (connected to groups regarded as terrorists by Turkey), by Turkish forces or Syrian militias working with them.
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Offline Trada

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2019, 08:27:49 pm »
They are saying the Syrian army will try to push back the Turkish army and set free areas they have taken over, I guess if that happens we are closer to Russia and Iran getting involved somehow.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2019, 09:39:36 pm »
They are saying the Syrian army will try to push back the Turkish army and set free areas they have taken over, I guess if that happens we are closer to Russia and Iran getting involved somehow.

I think Russia have been involved a lot. They won this one. The US were unable to win. The Kurds bet on the US and lost. That's pretty much it.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2019, 09:56:04 pm »
They are saying the Syrian army will try to push back the Turkish army and set free areas they have taken over, I guess if that happens we are closer to Russia and Iran getting involved somehow.

I was thinking the along similar lines, the Russians and Iranians get involved, the Syrians push the Turks back and then go to their allies in NATO demanding support. What happens at that stage?
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Offline Trada

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2019, 10:05:17 pm »
USA turning tale and withdrawing all troops.

They are saying the Kurds have done a deal with Russia and Syria to protect them.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2019, 10:09:35 pm »
Call it scaremongering, but does anyone else get the feeling that the yanks have gone and created another Osama bin Laden?.... or at least put all the pieces of chaos, misery and revenge into play, once again, to create another person of the ilk. 


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Offline mallin9

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2019, 12:23:46 am »
Yes, also with family separation and ICE......yes
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Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2019, 07:48:03 am »
Call it scaremongering, but does anyone else get the feeling that the yanks have gone and created another Osama bin Laden?.... or at least put all the pieces of chaos, misery and revenge into play, once again, to create another person of the ilk.

Yanks are the saviour of human rights and purveyors of justice across the world, with a glorious record of 'liberating' persecuted people in the last 30 years, if you go by the views of many posters in the Syria thread. 

Yanks have been creating bin ladens for the last three decades across the world.

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Offline filopastry

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2019, 10:29:09 am »
USA turning tale and withdrawing all troops.

They are saying the Kurds have done a deal with Russia and Syria to protect them.

It's all played out pretty well for Putin in the end.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2019, 10:41:39 am »
Yanks are the saviour of human rights and purveyors of justice across the world, with a glorious record of 'liberating' persecuted people in the last 30 years, if you go by the views of many posters in the Syria thread. 

Yanks have been creating bin ladens for the last three decades across the world.



And how is that different from any other major power, when they get the opportunity to flewx their muscles?

The US has been increasingly isolationist under Trump (for obvious reasons), doesn't seem to have offered a great deal of help to the people of Syria.

In fact the current crisis has been driven by their effective withdrawal leaving a local power with an axe to grind moving in to fill the vacuum.

I'm no defender of US foreign policy adventures over the last decades, but lets not make out that the world would be sweetness and light if they suddenly moved to a completely isolationist stance (we managed 2 world wars over the last 105 years at times when the US was isolationist), other major global and regional powers would just try to imporve their position in the absence of the US.

The problem is a hell of a lot more down to human nature than the US being in some way uniquely nasty.

Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #94 on: October 14, 2019, 11:31:00 am »
And how is that different from any other major power, when they get the opportunity to flewx their muscles?

The US has been increasingly isolationist under Trump (for obvious reasons), doesn't seem to have offered a great deal of help to the people of Syria.

In fact the current crisis has been driven by their effective withdrawal leaving a local power with an axe to grind moving in to fill the vacuum.

I'm no defender of US foreign policy adventures over the last decades, but lets not make out that the world would be sweetness and light if they suddenly moved to a completely isolationist stance (we managed 2 world wars over the last 105 years at times when the US was isolationist), other major global and regional powers would just try to imporve their position in the absence of the US.

The problem is a hell of a lot more down to human nature than the US being in some way uniquely nasty.

This is not a simple issue of interventionism vs non-interventionism. It is about the fucked up geo-political policies and priorities of the united states, which has led to its involvement in several debacles like Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya to name a few.  They have intervened where not needed and not intervened where needed, due to their shortsightedness and self interest.

The US could have played a leading role in creating consensus among major regional and continental powers (Russia, Turkey, Israel among others) to facilitate a clean transition in Syria, with Assad to step down after a grace period of 12 months, to retire in some remote island somewhere.  Instead, a 'strategy' to dethrone Assad was adopted as state policy, leading to the arming of militias fighting against the government and contributing to further violence and unrest.  This would also have made the battle to eradicate ISIL in Syria and Iraq a lot more easier for the coalition, with the combined power of resources of Russia, US/NATO and regional players.

The objectives from the beginning should have been;

- Enable conditions for a non violent displacement of Assad from his position of power in Syria, using all diplomatic means available. I am sure Russia would have agreed to a phased removal of Assad from power with the promise of democratic processes to decide the next head of the state.   The thousands fighting the regime could be persuaded to agree to a plan that involved Assad stepping down peacefully, given this was their main objective.

- Collectively fight ISIS in a strategic and incisive manner, pooling all resources from the major powers.  Tens of thousands of US, British, French, Russian, Israeli, German, Australian and other troops fighting ISIS in Syria and Iraq would have been much more effective than all of the parties fighting their own separate battles in multiple fronts.

And do i even need to mention the disastrous outcomes in Iraq and Afghanistan? Americans are now actually considering sitting down with Taliban to 'negotiate', leaving Afghans and the government in the lurch, after fighting Taliban for decades. Iraq is in shambles and ripe for another ISIS uprising in the Sunni dominated areas.   

The prospect of thousands of ISIS combatants being set free due to Turkish aggression against the Kurds is scary.  Which is exactly what is going to happen, thanks to weak responses from the  US and EU countries. 

Clusterfuck everywhere they have trodden.
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Offline Fortneef

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #95 on: October 14, 2019, 03:51:48 pm »
Nah thats just bizzaro world american exceptionalism.

All actions and inactions have costs and look wrong compared to the idealised alternative.

Should have negotiated with Saddam to avoid the first gulf war. Told Kuwait to hand over a few oil fields and everyone could have lived happily ever after. 



Offline great power rising

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #96 on: October 14, 2019, 06:13:39 pm »
This is a good move. Nations and conflicts will have the variable of Uncle Sam removed from the equation and will have to learn how to make compromises to live together or risk getting dragged into a conflict where they will be on their own and responsible for their own decisions entirely.

There is zero net gain in foreign powers trying to intervene in these ridiculous conflicts.

Offline Iska

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #97 on: October 14, 2019, 06:23:02 pm »
This is a good move. Nations and conflicts will have the variable of Uncle Sam removed from the equation and will have to learn how to make compromises to live together or risk getting dragged into a conflict where they will be on their own and responsible for their own decisions entirely.
Or the stronger ones will obliterate the weaker ones more easily, that could happen too.

How come rawk is getting trolled by a bot here?  This sort of thing hasn’t happened since United turned crap.

Offline great power rising

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #98 on: October 14, 2019, 07:36:01 pm »
As is the way of the world.

These ridiculous conflicts have 1000 years of history behind them and have religion, ideas of blood and soil and what not thrown into the mix, if you think you can distil all this into little guy innocent and big bad bully then you sir are the bot not me. It honestly amazes me the appetite Westerners have to go and stick their nose every place in the world after continuously getting bloody noses and how they still somehow manage to spin it as some great noble cause.


Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #99 on: October 14, 2019, 08:16:46 pm »
Nah thats just bizzaro world american exceptionalism.

All actions and inactions have costs and look wrong compared to the idealised alternative.

Should have negotiated with Saddam to avoid the first gulf war. Told Kuwait to hand over a few oil fields and everyone could have lived happily ever after.

Apologist bs imo, with all due respect.

Despite repeated failures and debacles,  they never learn.

Human rights and justice when it suits their geopolitical objectives.

Expectedly, the EU has done fuck all apart from weak protestations. The UK has not even joined the likes of Germany in imposing an arms embargo. Disgraceful hypocrites.

If it had been Iran doing the invading, they would have been sanctioned to their knees and bombed back to the stone ages by western liberators.

Yet time and again the west is seen as the purveyor of justice and lasting peace.. mostly by clueless weterners sitting on their high horses. Nothing but a modern form of the paradigm of the rest of the world being the white mans burden, in my opinion.

Ask the iraqis, syrians and libyan people what they think of the US and its loyal followers like the UK. 
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Offline Max_powers

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #100 on: October 14, 2019, 08:29:35 pm »
As is the way of the world.

These ridiculous conflicts have 1000 years of history behind them and have religion, ideas of blood and soil and what not thrown into the mix, if you think you can distil all this into little guy innocent and big bad bully then you sir are the bot not me. It honestly amazes me the appetite Westerners have to go and stick their nose every place in the world after continuously getting bloody noses and how they still somehow manage to spin it as some great noble cause.

Sorry what? Remind me again who is invading who here and what noses are being stuck where? Last I checked it was Turkey waging a war in another nations territory. Yet you are criticizing westerner's and defending Turkey. GTFO with that non-sense.




Offline Max_powers

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #101 on: October 14, 2019, 08:36:31 pm »
Would just like add that I doubt anyone here wants a full scale military intervention from the West. But by just keeping the Status Quo with a small force in non-combat role and telling Erdogan bugger off this could have easily been avoided.

Offline great power rising

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #102 on: October 14, 2019, 08:51:05 pm »
Sorry what? Remind me again who is invading who here and what noses are being stuck where? Last I checked it was Turkey waging a war in another nations territory. Yet you are criticizing westerner's and defending Turkey. GTFO with that non-sense.

Western noses being stuck in Middle Eastern affairs.

Who defended Turkey?

Offline great power rising

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #103 on: October 14, 2019, 08:55:25 pm »
Would just like add that I doubt anyone here wants a full scale military intervention from the West. But by just keeping the Status Quo with a small force in non-combat role and telling Erdogan bugger off this could have easily been avoided.

This solution is more becoming of an 11 year old playing a game of RISK. Telling Erdogan to bugger of has worked swimmingly well considering the USA will alienate its own reliable ally (by Middle Eastern standards) and drive it straight into Russia arms (where it almost certain to go to buy jets considering they were kicked out of the F 35 program for buying the S 400)

Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #104 on: October 14, 2019, 10:48:17 pm »
This is a good move. Nations and conflicts will have the variable of Uncle Sam removed from the equation and will have to learn how to make compromises to live together or risk getting dragged into a conflict where they will be on their own and responsible for their own decisions entirely.

There is zero net gain in foreign powers trying to intervene in these ridiculous conflicts.

Are you serious? I suggest you go onto Twitter and have a look at some of the videos on there from the last few days - civilains being slaughtered, a human rights activist raped and stoned to death, a Kurdish politician executed in cold blood, etc etc. - and then tell me this was 'a good move'. Sure, these things have been happening in Syria for years, but these specific incidents have only happened because of this specific decision by Trump, and it was totally unecessary. And do you have any idea of the damage that will be done when ISIS is able to regroup, both in Syria and beyond? This decision is madness, and this situation is far more complicated than your simplistic ideas about Western intervention in the Middle East.

The idea that there shouldn't be any US troops in Syria (or the Middle East generally) might be a valid one. But in this specific instance, if they are there, and their presence is preventing a vulnerable group from being slaughtered whilst also holding in check a murderous terrorist group, then they cannot simply leave at the drop of a hat, abandoning their allies (who had done much of the work in actually defeating that terrorist group) to be slaughtered and allowing hundreds of ISIS members to escape.

If Trump's primary concern was getting US troops out, he would've spent the last two years working out a plan for them to leave in a way which did not enable a genocide or allow ISIS to regroup (and therefore actually increase the chances of US troops going back in future). Instead he ignored the advice of his National Security team and those on the ground, and took the decision unilaterally after a phone call with Erdogan. Just caving to the demands of a dictator and siding with him over his own military and allies.

And that's one of the worst things about this decision - it was not about reducing the US presence in the Middle East (otherwise why send another 1800 troops to Saudi Arabia?), it was a decision made to protect Trump's business interests and to keep up his end of the deals he's been doing with Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc. This is blatantly obvious from the timing of it - it didn't come as the result of a carefully-planned process, it came out of the blue straight after Trump's phone call with Erdogan. It's a decision which only benefits the dictators in charge of Turkey, Syria and Russia - it does not benefit the Syrian people at all.
We can all talk in generalities about the damage done by Western intervention in the Middle East, but when it comes to reality they have to address the specific situation on the ground. Even if the ultimate aim is to withdraw entirely, it's way too complex (and will only do even more damage) to just pull everyone out overnight.

The idea that they will 'make compromises to live together' is laughable. I don't see many 'compromises' being made by Turkey. What I do see is them invading another country and basically committing genocide. And no it's not the job of the US to intervene in every potential genocide. But if they are already there and can prevent it without even having to fire a shot, then they should do so (whilst obviously planning for the best time and circumstances to eventually leave).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 11:08:46 pm by Rob Dylan »

Offline Iska

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #105 on: October 15, 2019, 12:02:36 am »
Why are you even here?  You’ve never posted about the football.  Why pick rawk to enlighten the world with your theory of geopolitics?

Offline GreatEx

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2019, 03:22:04 am »
Good post, Rob. When you have to resort to generalities to defend a diplomatic / military decision then you are betting on the wrong fucking horse.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #107 on: October 15, 2019, 06:24:12 am »
This is a good move. Nations and conflicts will have the variable of Uncle Sam removed from the equation and will have to learn how to make compromises to live together or risk getting dragged into a conflict where they will be on their own and responsible for their own decisions entirely.

There is zero net gain in foreign powers trying to intervene in these ridiculous conflicts.

Except that Turkey vs Syria is about oil pipeline routes to the Mediterranean. That is why Russia, Iran, Turkey and the Americans are there.
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Offline leroy

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #108 on: October 15, 2019, 06:35:22 am »
It honestly amazes me the appetite Westerners have to go and stick their nose every place in the world after continuously getting bloody noses and how they still somehow manage to spin it as some great noble cause.

Arch-western powers like Russia & Iran sticking their nose in there. Bastards.

Offline Fortneef

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #109 on: October 15, 2019, 08:14:09 am »
Except that Turkey vs Syria is about oil pipeline routes to the Mediterranean. That is why Russia, Iran, Turkey and the Americans are there.

I’d like to see the actual cost saving per barrel before I buy into such conspiracies.
I suspect it’s fuck all in the grand schemes of the oil business.
Also, Russia’s interest would be to cause chaos.

Offline Ray K

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #110 on: October 15, 2019, 11:58:57 am »


Turkish players doing a military salute after their equaliser vs France.
They did the same last week vs Albania.
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Offline Giono

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #111 on: October 15, 2019, 01:07:18 pm »


Turkish players doing a military salute after their equaliser vs France.
They did the same last week vs Albania.

St-Pauli FC binned a Turkish player for supporting the invasion.   
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Offline Giono

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #112 on: October 15, 2019, 01:16:36 pm »
I’d like to see the actual cost saving per barrel before I buy into such conspiracies.
I suspect it’s fuck all in the grand schemes of the oil business.
Also, Russia’s interest would be to cause chaos.


The involvement of Russia and others is about pipeline routes. It's not a conspiracy theory.

And Russia is not "Spectre" from James Bond looking to sow chaos...they are a petro-dictatorship with interest in the energy sector.

The Russian invasion of Afghanistan was discussed at the time as involving a proposed pipeline from Russia to the Indian Ocean, bypassing the western route that goes through Turkey, a NATO country...


Russian interests are oil interests. Even more than the US...

« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:29:52 pm by Giono »
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #113 on: October 15, 2019, 10:53:03 pm »
So Turkey don't seem to care about what Trump says. Will Trump be provoked to attack, or will he have to accept there is nothing he can do?

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2019, 10:22:39 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/16/trump-claims-kurds-are-much-safer-as-us-troops-leave-syria

The twat.

Russia has benefited massively from Trump's fuckwittery. 

The good thing is, Turkey will not dare to enter areas being manned by the Russians, some of which are inside the so called 'buffer zone'. The bad thing is, this 'support' from Syria/Russia comes with long strings attached.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2019, 10:33:44 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/16/trump-claims-kurds-are-much-safer-as-us-troops-leave-syria

The twat.

Russia has benefited massively from Trump's fuckwittery. 

The good thing is, Turkey will not dare to enter areas being manned by the Russians, some of which are inside the so called 'buffer zone'. The bad thing is, this 'support' from Syria/Russia comes with long strings attached.

But he also say this:

 “They did well when they fought with us they didn’t do so well when they didn’t fight with us.”

So in essence they were getting their arse kicked until we helped them and now they're going to get wiped out.
And all the world is football shaped, It's just for me to kick in space. And I can see, hear, smell, touch, taste.

Offline Fortneef

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #116 on: October 18, 2019, 10:35:26 am »
The involvement of Russia and others is about pipeline routes. It's not a conspiracy theory.

And Russia is not "Spectre" from James Bond looking to sow chaos...they are a petro-dictatorship with interest in the energy sector.

The Russian invasion of Afghanistan was discussed at the time as involving a proposed pipeline from Russia to the Indian Ocean, bypassing the western route that goes through Turkey, a NATO country...


Russian interests are oil interests. Even more than the US...

Russia love chaos. Other states' problems make Russia relatively more powerful.

Russian petro-interest are high prices making their oil and gas more profitable. How does a pipeline from the middle east to the med. help them?

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2019, 01:45:03 pm »
Nah thats just bizzaro world american exceptionalism.

All actions and inactions have costs and look wrong compared to the idealised alternative.

Should have negotiated with Saddam to avoid the first gulf war. Told Kuwait to hand over a few oil fields and everyone could have lived happily ever after.
After he lost his oil fields to Iran, while fighting Iran on behalf of Saud's Arabia, Kuwait and the US he probably thought he was owed and probably thought his two biggest allies, would sacrifice the smaller one.
Ifithadnabin for the newly discovered ( and somewhat timely ) proof it was Saddamn not Iran gassing the Kurd's, a few fake satellite photo's and an actress in the UN talking of babies been thrown on floors...
I reckon Kuwait would of ended up been the goat but in that alternative time-line the Kurd's would still be getting f*cked.   

Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #118 on: October 22, 2019, 06:53:07 am »
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-turkey-ceasefire-war-crimes-middle-east-a9161586.html
I seriously doubt the Kurds are using white phosphorus on themselves. What are the odds of this being the handiwork of Turkey or its allied militia?

The hypocrisy exhibited by the west over Turkey infuriates me to no end.  Why is the enthusiasm and fury shown towards Syria for their alleged use of chemical weapons absent in this thread?  Where are the economic sanctions, calls for regime change and invasions?

Turkey is getting away with war crimes and the best the UK can do is issue a weak protestation amounting to fuck all in the scheme of things. Where is the UNSC in this case?

The sooner this world moves away from trusting the likes of USA/NATO to function the role of a global peacekeeper, the better it is for all of us.
Phuk yoo

Offline GBF

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #119 on: October 22, 2019, 07:49:06 am »
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-turkey-ceasefire-war-crimes-middle-east-a9161586.html
I seriously doubt the Kurds are using white phosphorus on themselves. What are the odds of this being the handiwork of Turkey or its allied militia?

The hypocrisy exhibited by the west over Turkey infuriates me to no end.  Why is the enthusiasm and fury shown towards Syria for their alleged use of chemical weapons absent in this thread?  Where are the economic sanctions, calls for regime change and invasions?

Turkey is getting away with war crimes and the best the UK can do is issue a weak protestation amounting to fuck all in the scheme of things. Where is the UNSC in this case?

The sooner this world moves away from trusting the likes of USA/NATO to function the role of a global peacekeeper, the better it is for all of us.

US is playing a good game to replace NATO and other such organisation.  They will come out and say, look you pay NATO and they enrich themselves and fuck you over.  Pay US to be you peace keeper.  Trump has been moaning US contributes more in NATO than other members.  Its a long game to make US army the world 's private army .  They are even piloting it in Saudi

Cant blame them to try but sad it is at the expense of lives.  But who cares about the lives of non-western world people
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