Author Topic: The barbarity that is Syria  (Read 383189 times)

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #200 on: August 26, 2013, 11:49:38 am »
Yorky I include our government (and I use that term loosely . . . ) in my criticisms. In fact the whole so-called "civilised" world both west AND east.

In using that term I'm sadly reminded of Ghandhi's response when asked what he thought could be done to end oppression.

He replied "Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it."

He also said when asked what he thought of Western civilisation: "I think it would be a wonderful idea."
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Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #201 on: August 26, 2013, 11:57:32 am »
He also said when asked what he thought of Western civilisation: "I think it would be a wonderful idea."

I must say, I'm very wary of us going into another Middle Eastern country with the intention of bringing about our version of democracy - this normally involves bringing in a puppet dictator ala Karzai in Afghanistan.

Let's say we do targeted bombing raids on anti-aircraft sites and military infrastructure.  What's to stop Assad (or anyone for that matter) to launch some form of chemical attack on a neighbouring country (possibly, a Nato member). And then what on earth does the West do then?
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #202 on: August 26, 2013, 12:22:44 pm »
I see the UN Inspection has been delayed...

http://jrnl.ie/1054136

A UNITED NATIONS spokesperson has confirmed that snipers have shot at its chemical inspectors.
The gunmen have not been identified.

The attack has forced the experts to suspend their attempts to investigate claims that chemical weapons had been used in a suburb of the capital city of Damascus last week.

“The first vehicle of the chemical weapons investigation team was deliberately shot at multiple times by unidentified snipers,” said UN spokesman Martin Nesirky. No injuries were reported.

Earlier today, UN chief Ban Ki-Moon had said that “every hour counts” to ensure a sufficient investigation into the alleged chemical attack. He told reporters in Seoul that the team could not afford any more delays.

Bashar Assad’s administration had been slow to give the necessary permissions to the UN to allow the inspectors into the area. Persistent shelling at the site also led to US complaints that the scene had been corrupted.

According to the Opposition in Syria, 1,300 people – including many children – were killed in the rebel-held towns east and south-east of Damascus.

Workers with Doctors Without Borders said 355 people had died of “neurotoxic” symptoms. The Assad regime has denied responsibility.

Offline alfonso

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #203 on: August 26, 2013, 12:48:43 pm »
You can do better than that. You can blame the Jews.

Oh dear.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #204 on: August 26, 2013, 12:58:24 pm »
Bobbie I'm not suggesting we go into ANY country and start throwing about what little weight we retain. I'm saying in fact that the so-called "powers" are all of them pissing in the wind.

It's fair to say that I understand and accept that they MAY sometimes have genuine differences of views about alleged atrocities and about who /why such were committed etc.
But what they ALL of them end up doing is EITHER entering a scenario and making it 10 times worse (Afghanistan/Iraq) OR they will stand on the sidelines making profound and condemnatory accusations against the suspected perpetrators as victims of oppression (of one faction or another!!) die on the streets of Syria's capital city. Fucking primitive - despite all their oratory.
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Offline RedRabbit

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #205 on: August 26, 2013, 01:00:32 pm »
Anyone who uses the word 'theory' like that should be shot.

Just sayin'.

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2013, 01:29:36 pm »
Don't follow your comment mate. Who's mentioned "theory" in any immediately recent above posts?
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #207 on: August 26, 2013, 01:31:31 pm »
Don't follow your comment mate. Who's mentioned "theory" in any immediately recent above posts?

It's Galloway in the clip I posted. He has a 'theory' that Israel is responsible for the chemical attack.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #208 on: August 26, 2013, 01:46:44 pm »
Does he indeed.

And it is in Israel's best long-term interests further to de-stabilise the Middle-East region because......??

Behave George or show us some proof. One or the other eh?
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #209 on: August 26, 2013, 01:52:05 pm »
He doesn't need proof. That's boring. Plus it's Iranian State TV. Ideology is much more important than evidence.
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Offline KUNGFUDANCER

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #210 on: August 26, 2013, 02:23:33 pm »
He doesn't need proof. That's boring. Plus it's Iranian State TV. Ideology is much more important than evidence.
What proof do you have Assad used chemical weapons? That doesn't stop people from war mongering. Last time the UN said there was proof that rebels might have used chemical weapons. if the UN again finds out it was the rebels that did it, what should the US do? Help Assad fight them?

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #211 on: August 26, 2013, 02:30:45 pm »
Don't follow your comment mate. Who's mentioned "theory" in any immediately recent above posts?

Sorry, I didn't mean you. I thought I was following on from Alfonso's comment. I hadn't seen yours.

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #212 on: August 26, 2013, 02:33:52 pm »
No prob mate. See Yorkykopite's response to my question above.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #213 on: August 26, 2013, 02:35:08 pm »
What proof do you have Assad used chemical weapons? That doesn't stop people from war mongering. Last time the UN said there was proof that rebels might have used chemical weapons. if the UN again finds out it was the rebels that did it, what should the US do? Help Assad fight them?

There is no conclusive proof. It would help to clarify matters if Assad would allow UN inspectors in to the area in question, but they've been extremely reluctant to do that. So we go on the balance of probabilities while always remaining open to new evidence. The balance of probabilities suggests that the Assad regime has used chemical weapons on its own people. They have the means. They have done so before.  And in the present conflict they have shown themselves to be merciless in the extreme in attacking civilians and causing mass casualties. It is not war-mongering to point these things out.

As for Israel being responsible? Not a shred of evidence and no one serious is suggesting it. Only out and out barmies. But there's a few of these people and they like to be heard so it's important to laugh at them.
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #214 on: August 26, 2013, 02:43:42 pm »
Well they can't get into the areas can they - snipers open fire on the UN inspection convoy - see BBC News.
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Offline KUNGFUDANCER

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #215 on: August 26, 2013, 02:53:48 pm »
There is no conclusive proof. It would help to clarify matters if Assad would allow UN inspectors in to the area in question, but they've been extremely reluctant to do that. So we go on the balance of probabilities while always remaining open to new evidence. The balance of probabilities suggests that the Assad regime has used chemical weapons on its own people. They have the means. They have done so before.  And in the present conflict they have shown themselves to be merciless in the extreme in attacking civilians and causing mass casualties. It is not war-mongering to point these things out.

As for Israel being responsible? Not a shred of evidence and no one serious is suggesting it. Only out and out barmies. But there's a few of these people and they like to be heard so it's important to laugh at them.
"They have the means. They have done so before.  And in the present conflict they have shown themselves to be merciless in the extreme in attacking civilians and causing mass casualties" Same goes for the rebels you are supporting. Logical thinking and your so called balance of proof suggests rebels might have used the chemical weapons. Assad has nothing to gain and everything to lose by using it. There is no motive for Assad, while it's in the best interest of the rebels.

Since Assad has already allowed UN inspection what do you think the US should do if they find out the rebels did it like last time?

Offline RedMarko

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #216 on: August 26, 2013, 03:03:35 pm »
Well they can't get into the areas can they - snipers open fire on the UN inspection convoy - see BBC News.

Latest update is that they are in at this stage...

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/un-inspectors-reach-syria-gas-victims-despite-coming-under-fire-29528457.html

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #217 on: August 26, 2013, 03:10:58 pm »
Well it's a start at least. 

And instead of expressing deep concern at the US's reported position, Putin ought to be proactively brokering some kind of peace forum and insisting that Assad behaves himself. As Syria are deep in hock to Russia for their support and weaponry Assad will need to listen and conform.
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Offline armchair-fan

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #218 on: August 26, 2013, 06:25:51 pm »
You can do better than that. You can blame the Jews. Galloway shows how.

http://youtu.be/kPzvy808pr8

Good grief.

Galloway is more outlandish than the worst sort of deranged jihadi.

At least back in the 90s he tried to cover up that he was on Saddam's payroll, now he's openly working for Iranian state TV as some sort of Lord Haw Haw type figure?

It's a credit to the relative liberalism of Britain that we haven't either deported him or thrown him into a gulag.

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #219 on: August 27, 2013, 04:05:35 am »
"They have the means. They have done so before.  And in the present conflict they have shown themselves to be merciless in the extreme in attacking civilians and causing mass casualties" Same goes for the rebels you are supporting. Logical thinking and your so called balance of proof suggests rebels might have used the chemical weapons. Assad has nothing to gain and everything to lose by using it. There is no motive for Assad, while it's in the best interest of the rebels.

Since Assad has already allowed UN inspection what do you think the US should do if they find out the rebels did it like last time?

The cw's were launched with rockets and the regime are the only one's with the capability to use weapons like that.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #220 on: August 27, 2013, 11:27:46 am »
Having failed in efforts to intimidate the UN chemical inspectors in Syria, Washington has demanded that UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon withdraw the chemical weapons inspectors before they can assess the evidence and make their report. The UN Secretary General stood up to the Washington war criminals and rejected their demand.

The US and UK governments have revealed none of the “conclusive evidence” they claim to have that the Syrian government used chemical weapons. ... This is a far more shameful situation than the massive lies that former Secretary of State Colin Powell told the UN about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. Colin Powell claims that he was deceived by the White House and did not know that he was lying. Kerry and the British, French, and German puppets know full well that they are lying.

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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #221 on: August 27, 2013, 11:54:18 am »
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

He writes some hard stuff this guy. On the balance of probabilities he isn't many miles out.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #222 on: August 27, 2013, 12:18:09 pm »
The second article on his site is 'Gangster State'. Not Syria, not Russia, not China, Zimbabwe or Iran. So who? America and Britain!

I think I know where he's coming from.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #223 on: August 27, 2013, 12:41:02 pm »
There is an interesting document issued by the Brookings Institute called "Which path to Persia ?"

Naturally, as you may have guessed the path is through Damascus.

The document was issued in 2009 and reads like a playbook for the events unfolding.

For anyone else interested here's the link.... it can be read free online without the need to download.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/108902116/brookings-institution-s-which-path-to-persia-report
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #224 on: August 27, 2013, 12:49:13 pm »
Thanks I'll read that later.

In the meantime I think it's only fair to point out the chief 'interveners' in the Syrian crisis these past 9 months or so have been.....

Iran of course.

And their paid lackeys Hezbollah.

Propping up the Fascists in Damascus and killing as many Sunnis and secularists as they possibly can.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #225 on: August 27, 2013, 09:02:10 pm »
Fucking hell.

Sky News are describing us as a Major World Power.

Do me a favour.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #226 on: August 27, 2013, 09:39:45 pm »
Having failed in efforts to intimidate the UN chemical inspectors in Syria, Washington has demanded that UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon withdraw the chemical weapons inspectors before they can assess the evidence and make their report. The UN Secretary General stood up to the Washington war criminals and rejected their demand.

The US and UK governments have revealed none of the “conclusive evidence” they claim to have that the Syrian government used chemical weapons. ... This is a far more shameful situation than the massive lies that former Secretary of State Colin Powell told the UN about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. Colin Powell claims that he was deceived by the White House and did not know that he was lying. Kerry and the British, French, and German puppets know full well that they are lying.

Dr Paul Craig Roberts

Fascinating thread.

Surely without this evidence the Western Governments can not order retaliation of any sort?. Surely.

Offline jerseyhoya

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #227 on: August 28, 2013, 05:32:20 am »
From a US perspective, I really liked this take - Obama's Bad Syria Bluff

Worth reading in full, I think, for how he lays out the total shit sandwich this thing is. Damned if you do, damned if you don't intervene, but a thumb on the scale of action in order to retain credibility. If you don't feel like reading an article, the conclusion:

Quote
Obama now faces the second time in his presidency when war was an option. The first was Libya. The tyrant is now dead, and what followed is not pretty. And Libya was easy compared to Syria. Now, the president must intervene to maintain his credibility. But there is no political support in the United States for intervention. He must take military action, but not one that would cause the United States to appear brutish. He must depose al Assad, but not replace him with his opponents. He never thought al Assad would be so reckless. Despite whether al Assad actually was, the consensus is that he was. That's the hand the president has to play, so it's hard to see how he avoids military action and retains credibility. It is also hard to see how he takes military action without a political revolt against him if it goes wrong, which it usually does.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #228 on: August 28, 2013, 10:13:12 am »
....Worth reading in full, I think, for how he lays out the total shit sandwich this thing is.

That's a well considered article, calm and avoiding hysteria.

I've always been of the opinion that after your (ie US) experiences over the last 20 years in similar expeditions, the appetite for intervention by the US in this new potentially horrible quagmire is very limited and that the options to make a real difference are few and fraught with all too evident dangers as to what happens afterwards. A rock and a hard place indeed.

I can't help but feel it's looking like possibly once again, Iran may well have played a blinder in its ongoing undeclared war against the Saudi Arabian attempts at regional hegemony.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:16:25 am by The Gulleysucker »
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #229 on: August 28, 2013, 10:50:13 am »
ROBERT FISK

Tuesday 27 August 2013

Does Obama know he’s fighting on al-Qa’ida’s side?

‘All for one and one for all’ should be the battle cry if the West goes to war against Assad’s Syrian regime

If Barack Obama decides to attack the Syrian regime, he has ensured – for the very first time in history – that the United States will be on the same side as al-Qa’ida.
Quite an alliance! Was it not the Three Musketeers who shouted “All for one and one for all” each time they sought combat? This really should be the new battle cry if – or when – the statesmen of the Western world go to war against Bashar al-Assad.

The men who destroyed so many thousands on 9/11 will then be fighting alongside the very nation whose innocents they so cruelly murdered almost exactly 12 years ago. Quite an achievement for Obama, Cameron, Hollande and the rest of the miniature warlords.

This, of course, will not be trumpeted by the Pentagon or the White House – nor, I suppose, by al-Qa’ida – though they are both trying to destroy Bashar. So are the Nusra front, one of al-Qa’ida’s affiliates. But it does raise some interesting possibilities.

Maybe the Americans should ask al-Qa’ida for intelligence help – after all, this is the group with “boots on the ground”, something the Americans have no interest in doing. And maybe al-Qa’ida could offer some target information facilities to the country which usually claims that the supporters of al-Qa’ida, rather than the Syrians, are the most wanted men in the world.

There will be some ironies, of course. While the Americans drone al-Qa’ida to death in Yemen and Pakistan – along, of course, with the usual flock of civilians – they will be giving them, with the help of Messrs Cameron, Hollande and the other Little General-politicians, material assistance in Syria by hitting al-Qa’ida’s enemies. Indeed, you can bet your bottom dollar that the one target the Americans will not strike in Syria will be al-Qa’ida or the Nusra front.

And our own Prime Minister will applaud whatever the Americans do, thus allying himself with al-Qa’ida, whose London bombings may have slipped his mind. Perhaps – since there is no institutional memory left among modern governments – Cameron has forgotten how similar are the sentiments being uttered by Obama and himself to those uttered by Bush  and Blair a decade ago, the same bland assurances, uttered with such self-confidence but without quite  enough evidence to make it stick.

In Iraq, we went to war on the basis of lies originally uttered by fakers and conmen. Now it’s war by YouTube. This doesn’t mean that the terrible images of the gassed and dying Syrian civilians are false. It does mean that any evidence to the contrary is going to have to be suppressed. For example, no-one is going to be interested in persistent reports in Beirut that three Hezbollah members – fighting alongside government troops in Damascus – were apparently struck down by the same gas on the same day, supposedly in tunnels. They are now said to be undergoing treatment in a Beirut hospital. So if Syrian government forces used gas, how come Hezbollah men might have been stricken too? Blowback?

And while we’re talking about institutional memory, hands up which of our jolly statesmen know what happened last time the Americans took on the Syrian government army? I bet they can’t remember. Well it happened in Lebanon when the US Air Force decided to bomb Syrian missiles in the Bekaa Valley on 4 December 1983. I recall this very well because I was here in Lebanon. An American A-6 fighter bomber was hit by a Syrian Strela missile – Russian made, naturally – and crash-landed in the Bekaa; its pilot, Mark Lange, was killed, its co-pilot, Robert Goodman, taken prisoner and freighted off to jail in Damascus. Jesse Jackson had to travel to Syria to get him back after almost a month amid many clichés about “ending the cycle of violence”. Another American plane – this time an A-7 – was also hit by Syrian fire but the pilot managed to eject over the Mediterranean where he was plucked from the water by a Lebanese fishing boat. His plane was also destroyed.

Sure, we are told that it will be a short strike on Syria, in and out, a couple of days. That’s what Obama likes to think. But think Iran. Think Hezbollah. I rather suspect – if Obama does go ahead – that this one will run and run.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/does-obama-know-hes-fighting-on-alqaidas-side-8786680.html
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #230 on: August 28, 2013, 11:32:35 am »
Does anybody NOT know that al-Qaida are also fighting to bring down Assad? Haven't we all known this for ages? How on earth wouldn't this fact figure in American calculations about whether to intervene in Syria or not? No one, so far as I know, has tried to deny the unsavoury fact that there are Sunni jihadists fighting alongside democrats and secularists in the Free Syrian forces. In some cases the bastards have actually turned their guns on the democrats. No one at all has claimed that the anti-Assad groups are all as pure as snow. So I don't really know what the point of Robert Fisk's article is.

The fact that Al-Qaida have fighters in Syria isn't at all surprising. Geo-politics and Islamic imperialism have put them there, plus Assad's deplorable treatment of the Sunni majority in Syria which, presumably, has given AQ some kind of credibility among desperate people. 

It's possible of course that Western dithering two years ago over whether to supply arms and logistical support to the original rebels has contributed to the relative strength of the jihadists. They were well supplied with arms (by the Gulf States). They never lacked for anything because they weren't dependent on a stultified UN Security Council to give the green light.

The other thing to bear in mind is that Al-Qaida and its affiliates might win this civil war even if the Western powers and Turkey stay out of the conflict. That has to be a consideration for Obama too. Inaction runs the risk not only of strengthening Assad's Fascist government in Damascus. It runs the risk of strengthening the jihadists too.

Plus this, which you never hear from Fisk and people like Fisk. There is no western intervention in Syria. Despite that well over 100,000 people have died in the conflict - most at the hands of Assad and the Fascists. The rate of killing in Syria is greater than it was in Iraq at the time of the American presence there. In other words  non-intervention is already helping to create to a 'quagmire' and a bloodbath.

Does the rest of the world have a right to do something about this? Of course it does. A well-recognised one. Does it have a duty? Most probably. Staying out is just as much a policy as intervening. There's blood on our hands - if you want to put it like that - whichever route we decide to take.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #231 on: August 28, 2013, 01:22:19 pm »


Or for the more linear thinkers:


Offline HarryLabrador

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #232 on: August 28, 2013, 03:21:27 pm »


Or for the more linear thinkers:



Excellent! That's it in several nutshells.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #233 on: August 28, 2013, 06:32:42 pm »
There should be a few squares in that with question marks in.
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #234 on: August 28, 2013, 07:51:47 pm »
I used to really like Fisk and I don't know if it's me or him that's changed but the older I get the more I wonder if he's not drunk one too many Kool-Aid Spritzers.

There should be a few squares in that with question marks in.

Do you think there are other forces at work here? Ones we can't see.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #235 on: August 28, 2013, 07:54:21 pm »
Known unknowns ...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #236 on: August 28, 2013, 08:06:44 pm »
Known unknowns! I knew it was them! Even when it was the unknown knowns, I knew it was them!

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #237 on: August 28, 2013, 08:21:48 pm »
I'm hoping Assad gets bombed to smithereens but just wondering in light of Obama's red line comment what does he have to gain using chemical weapons that he can't by using conventional weapons?
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #238 on: August 28, 2013, 08:49:18 pm »
I'm hoping Assad gets bombed to smithereens but just wondering in light of Obama's red line comment what does he have to gain using chemical weapons that he can't by using conventional weapons?
Reports are that the chemcial weapons group went rouge and acted without authority.

US have phone conversations saying this apparently
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Re: The barbarity that is Syria
« Reply #239 on: August 28, 2013, 10:52:38 pm »
Reports are that the chemcial weapons group went rouge and acted without authority.

US have phone conversations saying this apparently
Which is based on those honest guys at the Israeli Intelligence department. I am still looking for this conclusive proof of the Iraqi having weapons of mass destruction, they also had proof about that.
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