Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Suareznumber7]

No it's not, there's still a lot of work to do to get it anywhere near competitive enough.

No idea what the answer is and neither do the FA who will continue to tinker till they mess it up completely.

I can't be arsed to change my Tapatalk settings because my time is more important than yours

There’s really only one solution I think.

[KingKolo]

The best years of their education,you don't spend year training kids to play a specific way only to ship them straight out when they hit a certain age.

So where are all these Liverpool first team regulars who completed their education playing U23 footy?

[KingKolo]

There is already money spent on that and these young lads have 'worked' to get where they are from the age of 7 with no remuneration 'til they're 17 so I think it's only fair to have them on a very solid wage.

They are privately educated as Academy Scholars and get to play football every day, not to mention various incentives that clubs offer - renting/buying houses for their families etc. The idea that off the back of that they deserve to earn a few grand a week to play non-competitive football matches in their 20s seems flawed to me. Nothing against any of them personally, good luck to them, and of course I or anyone in my family wouldn't hesitate to take such a deal if offered. But I don't agree that's it's 'only fair' to retain these lads for the sake of their bank balances.

Even if they were deserving of it, there's absolutely no way that LFC would be paying them that money out of a sense of duty. Football clubs don't function like that, sadly.

[FlashGordon]

They are privately educated as Academy Scholars and get to play football every day, not to mention various incentives that clubs offer - renting/buying houses for their families etc. The idea that off the back of that they deserve to earn a few grand a week to play non-competitive football matches in their 20s seems flawed to me. Nothing against any of them personally, good luck to them, and of course I or anyone in my family wouldn't hesitate to take such a deal if offered. But I don't agree that's it's 'only fair' to retain these lads for the sake of their bank balances.

Even if they were deserving of it, there's absolutely no way that LFC would be paying them that money out of a sense of duty. Football clubs don't function like that, sadly.

We'll agree to disagree 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

So where are all these Liverpool first team regulars who completed their education playing U23 footy?

Not all make the grade obviously.

[Nessy76]

Giving an example of one player doesn't prove the point. You could equally say that Dele Alli wouldn't have developed like he has if he hadn't been playing competitive senior football in his teens.First of all, it would be less of a gap without all the best 17 and 18 year olds playing U23 football.

I don't expect any player to be 'the finished product' at 18, far from it. Apart from really unusual cases like Owen or Rooney, I can hardly think of any players who haven't improved markedly between the age of 18 and 23. Even those two were probably a lot more consistent by the time they were in their 20s.

But in terms of making that step from 'promising youngster' to 'finished product', are they really best served with football in the U23 league? How many games of U23 football did Sterling, Gomez or Trent play? How much did they progress whilst playing at that level? Seems to me like the best youngsters are already getting a taste of first team action by the time they're in their late teens anyway, and that's going to accelerate their learning way beyond what they'd be doing playing U23 football.

For those who aren't going to make it at Liverpool, wouldn't they be better off cracking on with their careers? Conor Coady's a good example. Not good enough for Liverpool, but a fantastic player carving out a brilliant career by working his way up through the leagues. Adam Lallana is another one. Ok he can't stay fit for us over the last couple of seasons, but he was playing League 1 football in his 20s and ended up playing European finals and major international tournaments.

The clubs evidently feel that some players who are not ready to play first team football at eighteen might be worth sticking with. If there is nothing above the U18s then you are writing them all off. And not just at Liverpool. I don't know how many Premier League players were first team regulars as teenagers, but I would bet there are plenty who weren't.

[Coolie High]

No it's not, there's still a lot of work to do to get it anywhere near competitive enough.

No idea what the answer is and neither do the FA who will continue to tinker till they mess it up completely.

I can't be arsed to change my Tapatalk settings because my time is more important than yours

England have the best youth teams in the world, something right must be being done, can’t all be bad when the system is producing world beaters like Sancho Greenwood and Odoi.

[reddebs]

England have the best youth teams in the world, something right must be being done, can’t all be bad when the system is producing world beaters like Sancho Greenwood and Odoi.

Yep they are and those winners who don't see a route into the 1st teams at club level are looking for opportunities to progress elsewhere.

Apart from a bleakish period during the early 2000s we've done reasonably well bringing through our own and we've recently started doing so again, even if most have been moved on they at least got a chance.

It's no wonder the City and Chelsea lads are now looking elsewhere when they've seen so many never getting those chances.

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[royhendo]

The Inglethorpe interview with James Pearce is excellent. We are joined up and integrating further.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-jurgen-klopp-fenway-sports-15745289.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

[lamonti]

Yeah but is there enough space on the wage bill for clubs further down the leagues? They can't have that many players on their wage bills and will likely go with the player proven at league 1 or 2 level over a 19 year old coming from Liverpool. Hence why there's the loan system so they don't have to take a financial gamble that they can't afford. Of course it could be improved upon, everything can, but I'm not sure you can just get rid of the under 23 aspect.

Of course B teams would be perfect for this but upsets the pyramid further down the leagues and league clubs would never vote in favour of it.

The loan system is for the benefit of the powerful clubs to hoard talent, not for the benefit of smaller clubs. If there was more talent spread throughout the clubs around the country, they'd get more playing time, and the quality would, hypothetically get picked up by better clubs sending transfer fees down the pyramid, and incentivising the production of youth players.

B teams are a non-runner in the English system.

[KingKolo]

The loan system is for the benefit of the powerful clubs to hoard talent, not for the benefit of smaller clubs. If there was more talent spread throughout the clubs around the country, they'd get more playing time, and the quality would, hypothetically get picked up by better clubs sending transfer fees down the pyramid, and incentivising the production of youth players.

Yep.

[KingKolo]

England have the best youth teams in the world, something right must be being done, can’t all be bad when the system is producing world beaters like Sancho Greenwood and Odoi.

Absolutely. But those lads won't be playing U23 football.

[KingKolo]

Not all make the grade obviously.

Not all? How about not any?

I can't think of a single Liverpool first team regular who played a significant number of games at U23 level, and I don't just mean in the current squad.

[royhendo]

The Inglethorpe interview with James Pearce is excellent. We are joined up and integrating further.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-jurgen-klopp-fenway-sports-15745289.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

2nd part here.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/harry-wilson-can-follow-footsteps-15749897

It's good.

[KingKolo]

2nd part here.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/harry-wilson-can-follow-footsteps-15749897

It's good.

To be fair, an Inglethorpe 'exclusive' with James Pearce is always going to amount to a pretty rosy perspective. Both parts are a nice read, but I do have the feeling I've heard it all before.

We've heard great things about all the previous Academy directors at various stages. Piet Hamberg, Stevie Heighway, Pep Segura... I'm not saying anything in particular about any of them, but at various stages they've all been heralded in similar terms and yet by my reckoning, the only players to make it as regulars in any team playing in top flight divisions in the last 15/20 years are Sterling, Suso, Coady, Gulacsi, Mikel San Jose and of course Trent.

Whatever great work Inglethorpe is doing, I think probably the most encouraging thing moving forward is Klopp's policy with senior players on the fringes of the first team squad, and his willingless to take a chance on a youngster. He'd rather let a Klavan go and throw a Hoever in at the deep end, which can only be brilliant for the future, if a little bit scary in the present.

[KingKolo]

For example, here is James Pearce writing about Frank McParland's confidence in LFC's bright future.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/academy-director-frank-mcparland-confident-3377520

A couple of years later McParland was dismissed along with Rodolfo Borrell (now key assistent to Guardiola at City - obviously no mug).

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/nov/21/liverpool-sack-frank-mcparland-academy

I've been watching Liverpool since before the Academy system was brought in by Howard 'the genius' Wilkinson, and for me you have to go right back to the days of the School of Excellence to find a time when Liverpool were at the level we all aspire to in terms of youth development.

[Suareznumber7]

2nd part here.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/harry-wilson-can-follow-footsteps-15749897

It's good.

Good read.  Thanks for sharing.  It seems that the plan for our youth players is to hang onto them until they've had plenty of match time out on loan and then bring them back in at 22/23 when they've matured and learned the game.  Only the very best of them will be playing regular 1st team football with us at 18/19 years of age.  It also kind of sounds(I'm guessing here) like Wilson will be going out on loan again next year rather then being a part of the 1st team squad here. 

I'm wondering if the plan for players like Jones and Camacho would be to go out on loan next year to start along the same path that Wilson is on. 

[Chris~]

Good read.  Thanks for sharing.  It seems that the plan for our youth players is to hang onto them until they've had plenty of match time out on loan and then bring them back in at 22/23 when they've matured and learned the game.  Only the very best of them will be playing regular 1st team football with us at 18/19 years of age.  It also kind of sounds(I'm guessing here) like Wilson will be going out on loan again next year rather then being a part of the 1st team squad here. 

I'm wondering if the plan for players like Jones and Camacho would be to go out on loan next year to start along the same path that Wilson is on.

This was what Emenalo wanted at Chelsea. It doesn't work like that though, your best youth players realise they can get paid and game time elsewhere that isn't the messy series of loans. They also will see players ahead doing well on loan and not getting close, or the first team bringing in players in their position.

[Suareznumber7]

This was what Emenalo wanted at Chelsea. It doesn't work like that though, your best youth players realise they can get paid and game time elsewhere that isn't the messy series of loans. They also will see players ahead doing well on loan and not getting close, or the first team bringing in players in their position.

I'm not sure that was the plan for Chelsea.  And, we certainly don't have anywhere near the number of players out on loan that Chelsea do and I was always under the impression that they stockpiled so many players as to sell them on and make money for first team signings. 


We seem to have a clear plan to allow these players the opportunity to go away, develop, and then come back to try and earn a spot on the 1st team squad.  They won't all make it but, without having a "B" team playing in the football league it's really the only option that we have for these players who aren't ready at 18/19 to play for liverpool.   

[reddebs]

The only players to make it as regulars in any team playing in top flight divisions in the last 15/20 years are Sterling, Suso, Coady, Gulacsi, Mikel San Jose and of course Trent.

Youth/Reserves football has been through massive upheaval and change in that time mainly due to the FA realising the old way wasn't working. 

Whatever they have changed in terms of how youth coaching is delivered and how youth coaches are developed it appears to be working seeing as the English youth teams are now winning European and World Titles.

I don't know the exact stats for successful youth progression but I'd have thought 6 in the last 10yrs or so seems pretty decent to me, even if only 1 of them are still with us.




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[tubby]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/N716FzD1aMY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/N716FzD1aMY</a>

[KingKolo]

Youth/Reserves football has been through massive upheaval and change in that time mainly due to the FA realising the old way wasn't working. 

Whatever they have changed in terms of how youth coaching is delivered and how youth coaches are developed it appears to be working seeing as the English youth teams are now winning European and World Titles.

I don't know the exact stats for successful youth progression but I'd have thought 6 in the last 10yrs or so seems pretty decent to me, even if only 1 of them are still with us.




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Yeah, the England youth sides are definitely doing very well in tournaments all of a sudden, so we'll see what that brings in terms of players making the grade at senior level. From the 2017 U20 World Cup winning team for example, so far only Lookman, Maitland-Niles, Calvert-Lewin and Walker-Peters are really having a go at becoming first team regulars... and none of them have properly broken through yet.
It's that last step that is the hardest.

I think 6 players playing regularly anywhere at a top flight club from the last 20 years is poor. Particularly when you consider that Gulacsi, Mikel San Jose, Sterling and Suso were all bought in their mid teens, which leaves just Coady and Trent from those who have come all the way through at our Academy.

Plus, you can't really label it as a nationwide issue with 'the Academy system', because Utd's Academy has produced far more players than ours in the same time period.
Phil Bardsley, Robbie Brady, Tom Cleverley, Danny Drinkwater, Jonny Evans, Adnan Janusaj, Michael Keane, Gerard Pique, Kieran Richardson, Guiseppe Rossi, Ryan Shawcross, Danny Welbeck - they've all had or are having careers at top flight clubs. Plus there's Rashford and Lingard, and you could arguably count Pogba in there (if you're going to add the likes of Gulacsi and Mikel San Jose to the list of LFC Academy products).

(Obviously this isn't going to be a popular observation on here, but it seems a bit lame to ignore the facts...)

We have to hope that things will improve now, but I've seen enough McParland/Segura/Hamberg false dawns to feel a tad cynical about this latest reinvention.

[Suareznumber7]

Kingkolo you seem very negative lately. I hope you can enjoy the ride the club is on and change your frame of mind to something a little more positive.

[KingKolo]

Kingkolo you seem very negative lately. I hope you can enjoy the ride the club is on and change your frame of mind to something a little more positive.

Yeah, like I said, I knew it wouldn't be a popular view. But you're not putting together much of an argument against what I'm saying.

I am loving this season, don't worry about that. Absolutely fucking loving it, and loving Klopp (and Salah, and Van Dijk, AND ANDY ROBBO). Cannot get enough.

But regardless of how the first team is doing, this thread is about youth development and I just get a bit jaded by the constant hype that goes around. Most of it is totally unfounded.

[Chris~]

I dont think anyone is going to argue that United had the superior academy in the 00s and got more players through. Its why we needed to invest/improve what we do, but the real change (recruitment and coaching and the youngest ages) takes a while to see the benefits. Chelsea for example didnt see this in a big way until their 96/97 age group, which was nearly 10 years after they started big investment in the academy. Same with City and it'll be the same with us. The general standard of the academy players coming through already looks better than it did 7-10 years ago and that's something that hopefully keeps improving.

[KingKolo]

I dont think anyone is going to argue that United had the superior academy in the 00s and got more players through. Its why we needed to invest/improve what we do, but the real change (recruitment and coaching and the youngest ages) takes a while to see the benefits. Chelsea for example didnt see this in a big way until their 96/97 age group, which was nearly 10 years after they started big investment in the academy. Same with City and it'll be the same with us. The general standard of the academy players coming through already looks better than it did 7-10 years ago and that's something that hopefully keeps improving.

You mean at Liverpool or generally?

[Chris~]

You mean at Liverpool or generally?

Liverpool

[KingKolo]

Liverpool

Fair enough. I hope you're right.

I know Duncan and Glatzel are doing well at the moment, but it's too early to tell with them whether they'll amount to anything. Look at Adam Morgan for example, or the 2006 FA Youth Cup winning teams - Hobbs, Anderson, Hammill etc. All hotly tipped at one point, but eventually nowhere near a career at Liverpool. Fair bit of excitement around about Harry Wilson and Curtis Jones... but there was a fair bit of excitement about Dani Pacheco a few years ago.

Stevie Heighway (who knows a shitload more than I'll ever know about developing young footballers) famously gave Jay Spearing emotional backing when he left the Academy back in the late 2000s, and he's captaining Blackpool now. It's just so difficult to make that final step up, and the margins are so slim. Captaining Blackpool is fucking outstanding after all, but clearly well short of the level required for the PL.

[RayPhilAlan]

Yeah, the England youth sides are definitely doing very well in tournaments all of a sudden, so we'll see what that brings in terms of players making the grade at senior level. From the 2017 U20 World Cup winning team for example, so far only Lookman, Maitland-Niles, Calvert-Lewin and Walker-Peters are really having a go at becoming first team regulars... and none of them have properly broken through yet.
It's that last step that is the hardest.

I think 6 players playing regularly anywhere at a top flight club from the last 20 years is poor. Particularly when you consider that Gulacsi, Mikel San Jose, Sterling and Suso were all bought in their mid teens, which leaves just Coady and Trent from those who have come all the way through at our Academy.

Plus, you can't really label it as a nationwide issue with 'the Academy system', because Utd's Academy has produced far more players than ours in the same time period.
Phil Bardsley, Robbie Brady, Tom Cleverley, Danny Drinkwater, Jonny Evans, Adnan Janusaj, Michael Keane, Gerard Pique, Kieran Richardson, Guiseppe Rossi, Ryan Shawcross, Danny Welbeck - they've all had or are having careers at top flight clubs. Plus there's Rashford and Lingard, and you could arguably count Pogba in there (if you're going to add the likes of Gulacsi and Mikel San Jose to the list of LFC Academy products).

(Obviously this isn't going to be a popular observation on here, but it seems a bit lame to ignore the facts...)

We have to hope that things will improve now, but I've seen enough McParland/Segura/Hamberg false dawns to feel a tad cynical about this latest reinvention.

Just picking up on this point - the record looks a lot better if you extend it back a few years! Your 20 cutoff is just after McManaman, Fowler, Carragher, Owen and Gerrard all came through. There are also lots of other players who had careers after coming through our academy - Rickie Lambert, Stephen Warnock and Martin Kelly were all England internationals for instance during the last decade and a bit, though they obviously join the list of those who didn't provide much benefit to our first team.

Edit: Jon Flanagan also played for England, while Danny Ward, Ben Woodburn and Harry Wilson have all played for Wales.

[KingKolo]

Just picking up on this point - the record looks a lot better if you extend it back a few years! Your 20 cutoff is just after McManaman, Fowler, Carragher, Owen and Gerrard all came through. There are also lots of other players who had careers after coming through our academy - Rickie Lambert, Stephen Warnock and Martin Kelly were all England internationals for instance during the last decade and a bit, though they obviously join the list of those who didn't provide much benefit to our first team.

Edit: Jon Flanagan also played for England, while Danny Ward, Ben Woodburn and Harry Wilson have all played for Wales.

Yeah, my cutoff is from the establishment of the Academy system, which replaced the old School of Excellence. There's absolutely no doubt that we turned out some fantastic youngsters in the 90s. Macca and Stevie were 8 years apart, but during that 8 years we produced 5 world class players. Not just top class, world class. No issues with that period whatsoever. Worth pointing out that Utd turned out their C*nts of '92 during the same period, a feat they've not come close to repeating since the Academies came in.

You're totally right. Extend back a few years and suddenly we're world leading. But that's 20 years ago, and it just reinforces the question - what the fuck is going wrong in recent times?

Regarding some of those players you've mentioned, I'm talking about players who have careers at top flights clubs. Warnock made the bulk of his career appearances at Championship or League 1 level, Lambert was released and learnt his trade playing lower league football rather than in an Academy, and Martin Kelly... I'll give you him although the subs bench at Palace is scraping in really.

Flanno is a squad player at Rangers (SPL is miles below EPL) and Wales caps don't really count, sadly. Plenty of their current senior internationals are Championship players. (Nothing against Wales by the way, fantastic what they've done recently. I'm Scottish and we are much worse.) In any case, we bought Ward from Wrexham aged 18 and loaned him our for most of his time at LFC, so he's hardly an Academy product, and Wilson and Woodburn are just potentials at the moment.

Plus, you can't really label it as a nationwide issue with 'the Academy system', because Utd's Academy has produced far more players than ours in the same time period.
Phil Bardsley, Robbie Brady, Tom Cleverley, Danny Drinkwater, Jonny Evans, Adnan Janusaj, Michael Keane, Gerard Pique, Kieran Richardson, Guiseppe Rossi, Ryan Shawcross, Danny Welbeck - they've all had or are having careers at top flight clubs. Plus there's Rashford and Lingard, and you could arguably count Pogba in there (if you're going to add the likes of Gulacsi and Mikel San Jose to the list of LFC Academy products).

If you include players who've had a few caps or made a handful of appearances for PL clubs, this list of Utd Academy products doubles in size too sadly. You'd be chucking in all the likes of Darron Gibson, Scott McTominay, Frazier Campbell and plenty more other wankers. 

[reddebs]

Utds academy record is a freak though, they've had an academy player named in every matchday squad for something like 80yrs, apart from possibly 1 or 2 during Mourinho's tenure.

Youth development takes years to establish, develop and start seeing results from because any changes benefit the youngest who have the longest development time. 

Changes made by Rafa 10yrs ago when Rodolfo and Pep arrived, those 8yr olds signed as schoolboys are now 18yr old. 

We've had other changes in that time where we've released far more players, far earlier than previously so we don't have a glut of 20-23yr olds still hoping to get their chance. 

Sure there's still some we need to move on but we do have a duty of care for any contracted player, we can't just dump them by the wayside.

I get that you're disillusioned but we are getting there.

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[reddebs]

Utds academy record is a freak though, they've had an academy player named in every matchday squad for something like 80yrs, apart from possibly 1 or 2 during Mourinho's tenure.

Youth development takes years to establish, develop and start seeing results from because any changes benefit the youngest who have the longest development time. 

Changes made by Rafa 10yrs ago when Rodolfo and Pep arrived, those 8yr olds signed as schoolboys are now 18yr olds. 

We've had other changes in that time where we've released far more players, far earlier than previously so we don't have a glut of 20-23yr olds still hoping to get their chance. 

Sure there's still some we need to move on but we do have a duty of care for any contracted player, we can't just dump them by the wayside.

I get that you're disillusioned but we are getting there.

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[KingKolo]

I get that you're disillusioned but we are getting there.

Hope so! 

[Coolie High]

I think players have to do more here to get a chance and that extends back to over 10 years, honestly United can have players like Rashford who was a good prospect but not a world beater at youth level and still manage to promote him and give him games, it feels like for us everything has to be a perfect scenario and the player has to be a world beater ala Sterling or TAA to truly make it here, it’s the reason why United would be able to boast of far more players who are playing league football who came from their academy because for the most part they give them games.

I think at this point we’ve surpassed them but saying that we could do with a talent the level of Mason Greenwood which we don’t have.

[El Lobo]

I think players have to do more here to get a chance and that extends back to over 10 years, honestly United can have players like Rashford who was a good prospect but not a world beater at youth level and still manage to promote him and give him games, it feels like for us everything has to be a perfect scenario and the player has to be a world beater ala Sterling or TAA to truly make it here, it’s the reason why United would be able to boast of far more players who are playing league football who came from their academy because for the most part they give them games.

I think at this point we’ve surpassed them but saying that we could do with a talent the level of Mason Greenwood which we don’t have.

Have you got any stats to back that up Coolie, it’d be interesting to see.

[KingKolo]

Have you got any stats to back that up Coolie, it’d be interesting to see.

It'd be hard to evidence volume of players playing throughout the football league, but if the number of players playing in the PL is anything to go by, then you'd expect them to be doing better lower down too.

Anyway I know I started it, and I think most on here would grudgingly agree that their academy has out performed ours since they were both formed, but it's not a Man Utd academy comparison thread.

A lot of it simply comes down to money, and Utd have had more of it than we have since the 90s. Take City's academy, they've made £162.8 million from sales over the last 3 seasons. That's serious money, but you have to speculate to accumulate and City have been speculating like mad.

In the end, when it comes to getting players into the Liverpool team, it's all about the manager's attitude (in my humble opinion anyway). The academy can produce gems and they'll be ignored if someone like Mourinho is in charge.

So much of it is about the players getting a chance at the right time - then they have to take it of course, but without the opportunity they have no chance. I think in Klopp we have a manager who will present those opportunities.

[reddebs]

Have you got any stats to back that up Coolie, it’d be interesting to see.

Found this although not fully up to date

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportskeeda.com/amp/football/which-academy-produced-most-players-europe-top-5-leagues-real-madrid-barcelona-2017

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[Too early for flapjacks?]

I think it's pretty clear that things have slowly been getting better since the work Segura did at the academy?

[reddebs]

I think it's pretty clear that things have slowly been getting better since the work Segura did at the academy?

I think so yes. 

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[phil236849]

Liam Millar signs new LT contract and joins Killie on loan - on official site
Good news after being strongly linked to permanent move to sunderland in the summer.  I do like him as a player