Author Topic: China - a Fascist State  (Read 74286 times)

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2020, 02:09:22 pm »
You're better than this. For some reason you've a bee in your bonnet, I'll leave you at it.

My point is that the Chinese regime is NOT better than they appear. They enslave and despoil not because there's a market for the products made by slavery and despoilation - but out of ideology and a drive for power and domination.

There is a "bee in my bonnet". I hate untrammelled power, especially when it turns murderous. China is a Fascist State. And it relies on our apathy. That's worth getting angry about. 
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Offline TSC

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2020, 02:40:55 pm »
Driven by our greed and need for shiny new things.

While this is accurate the goods produced are often purchased by western companies based on price alone, with little consideration given to ethics, etc.

Worth noting though same happens here.  Just look at the conditions as per the ‘sweatshops’ operating in Leicester, highlighted only due to the pandemic.  Think it was ‘Boohoo’ purchasing produced goods primarily.  Same may happen in other areas within the UK, who knows?

Offline FlashGordon

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2020, 03:02:58 pm »
My point is that the Chinese regime is NOT better than they appear. They enslave and despoil not because there's a market for the products made by slavery and despoilation - but out of ideology and a drive for power and domination.

There is a "bee in my bonnet". I hate untrammelled power, especially when it turns murderous. China is a Fascist State. And it relies on our apathy. That's worth getting angry about.

I'm not defending their abhorrent treatment of workers. I was commenting on the highlighted part about what they are doing to the enviroment. That is driven by us, unfortunately.

I'm not an apologist for the Chinese government I was merely trying to say we have a part to play in their destruction of the enviroment.
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2020, 03:06:08 pm »
While this is accurate the goods produced are often purchased by western companies based on price alone, with little consideration given to ethics, etc.

Worth noting though same happens here.  Just look at the conditions as per the ‘sweatshops’ operating in Leicester, highlighted only due to the pandemic.  Think it was ‘Boohoo’ purchasing produced goods primarily.  Same may happen in other areas within the UK, who knows?

Yes agreed, I mentioned that they do it cheaply. I'm not someone who feels the need to buy new stuff every week, only when I need it really, unfortunately there are loads out there though who are the opposite. That's all I was commenting on.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2020, 03:37:09 pm »
I'm not defending their abhorrent treatment of workers. I was commenting on the highlighted part about what they are doing to the enviroment. That is driven by us, unfortunately.


It's not driven by us, no more than any form of capitalism is "driven" by the customers. 
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2020, 03:39:07 pm »
It's not driven by us, no more than any form of capitalism is "driven" by the customers. 

If a capitalist endevour is selling spoons and people collectively refuse to buy spoons then wouldn't that endevour fail and stop production?

Or would they continue to produce a product with no customers?

 This seems an unlikely outcome.
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2020, 03:39:43 pm »
It's not driven by us, no more than any form of capitalism is "driven" by the customers.

You don't think our rampant consumerism has a part to play in how much goods they produce? If no one bought them they wouldn't make them? Simple economics.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2020, 03:52:39 pm »
You don't think our rampant consumerism has a part to play in how much goods they produce? If no one bought them they wouldn't make them? Simple economics.


Of course I do. But capitalism is a system in which producers, not consumers, possess power. That is simple economics.

When IG Farben is implicated in the Holocaust I do not blame those who purchase IG Farben products. I blame the board of directors. When the Chinese State dredges the bottom of oceans far and wide for minerals without a thought for the environment or their own slave-labourers I blame them and not you. 
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Offline Sangria

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2020, 03:55:40 pm »
Thank you, dear mod, for changing the title to something more suitable.

The Chinese Fascists rely and depend on western apathy. They want us to see the world as they see it. A job creation scheme for the Uighurs instead of genocide. A Marshall Plan for Africa instead of rapacious imperialism. A green-conscious nation instead of the mass urban polluter and despoiler of the oceans. 

And how they would like to become a world football power with all the prestige and credibility that entails!

How sensitive they are to the slightest criticism. That fucking ambassador of theirs in London who comes on TV occasionally to explain that 2 plus 2 = 5 in Hong Kong. Who do you think we are you clown? We're not your own subdued and easily frightened citizens. We know what's effing happening over there. You are trying to impose a police state.

Possibly, due to Covid-19 (thanks China!) we will still be playing football on June 4th this coming year. Wouldn't it be great if there was a massive fucking flag on the Kop to commemorate all the brave thousands of Chinese students who were massacred in Tiananmen Square for wanting something as outrageous as the right to vote and a representative government. Obviously the China Communist Party (it's the Fascist party with a fancy name) would cut the link to the live game as soon as they'd absorbed the message. But not quick enough.....

"What happened in Tiananmen Square daddy" some Chinese kid will want to know. "And why is my favourite football team interested?" It would be worth it just for that.

What we see here in the UK may not be what they see in Hong Kong. Even with the same coverage, people can see things differently.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2020, 03:57:57 pm »
It started with globalization, capitalism, and self-interest, and it remains that way.

As I posted in the America thread, this isn't a cold war like with the Soviet Union (who had a completely different economic sphere and was interested in military alliances and ideology in addition to economics).  China is part of the global network of trade and interdependence.  For all the rhetoric from Trump and the US government, American companies got a decent deal out of China as part of the Phase I trade agreement (seems like years ago at this point).  The EU is pushing to ratify a trade agreement with China right now (focused on getting market access).  The EU wants its companies to not be disadvantaged when operating in China.  And when you've got one of the largest economies in the world leaving the EU and the American president threatening to defund NATO and leaving Western-led institutions, the EU has to send a message to its members that its negotiating power is strong as a bloc and a message to Joe Biden not to take Europe for granted in any US-China competition.

It's trade and interest.  Look at this from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/dec/16/he-ruined-us-10-years-on-tunisians-curse-man-who-sparked-arab-spring

Foreign money also equates the commotion of democracy with risk. “We’ve seen a lot of investors going abroad, looking at places like Morocco or Egypt that are authoritarian countries and present the same cheap, skilled labour force but with less trouble, less social demands,” says Youssef Cherif, the director of Columbia University’s Tunis Centre.

Investors don't seem to care about democracy or the Arab Spring much.  Nor did they prefer India to China.  Capital goes where it gets the highest return, and it often goes to countries where the government isn't exactly a shining beacon of democracy (US actions in Latin America are another example).

So you can blow up the global trade and capitalistic tendencies of private corporations.  But that's not happening when our economies are based on profit and growth.

How else do you get one over China in a global, geopolitical setting?  Simple, by outcompeting.

For the longest time, developing countries didn't have many options.  IMF/World Bank loans and competing for western attention was your best chance, but that comes with conditions (someone would argue far too many, like the CFR article I linked in the US thread).  Then China comes along.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42172955
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-50068625

People complain about debt traps, but an observer might see the IMF loan conditions as more stringent and more taxing than the Chinese ones, which are low interest and come with infrastructure!  (Of course, you have to hire Chinese companies and workers, there's always a catch).

I'm not sure people in Nigeria care about moral grandstanding, but I'm sure they want to improve their country.  If you want to curb Chinese influence, give Nigeria low-interest loans or grants while building infrastructure they need.  Complaining about China isn't going to do it.  This basically goes for any country.  Trump used to constantly while about people not paying for things (e.g. NATO, troops in Asian countries, etc), but how do you, in a global world, get those countries to turn their backs on China?  Simple, pay up.  Unless they're threatened with an invasion, they're hardly going to do America's bidding without getting a return.

Look at the TPP fiasco in Asia-Pacific.  A perfect opportunity to curb China's influence.  But a myriad of problems (stemming from domestic economics and politics doomed it):
-Americans (on the right and left) were worried about jobs lost to APAC
-American corporations wanted strict rules about IP and other protections
-Trump of course was against it ("Democrats sign bad deals!")

American geopolitical interest would dictate that TPP be signed, whatever the impact, but it gets held up.  So other countries went ahead without it.  What's more, the recently signed RCEP, led by ASEAN countries, of course includes China.  China's even stated it could be interested in joining a new TPP later.

You can't have your cake and eat it.  It's not the 80s and 90s anymore.  For global dealings, there has to be some sacrifice (Corporate interest?  Domestic backlash?  Better loan terms for developing countries?  Lower growth?) to get others onboard.

There's also an abdication of responsibility in lieu of political power.  On the pollution topic for example, China emits less emissions per capita than some of the worst polluters (developed countries including US and Australia).  So, some western countries offshore to China, consume said products, and still pollute more on a per capita basis?  It's not a great look, but it's easy to point fingers.  In 2017, China stopped importing some plastic waste, which set off a chain of events on the recycling side here in the States.  For the first time, people were questioning if recycling was done properly.  It turns out we just shipped the most difficult to recycle plastic to China.  When that was halted, we didn't know what to do.  It's a global problem.  Part of the reason Australia's emissions are so high is that its iron ore industry exports a ton of material for Chinese consumption.  If China were to offshore its manufacturing to ASEAN countries, it could look great pollution-wise.  It doesn't solve climate change though.  I don't think posters on here would be lauding China for its low emissions after sending manufacturing and toxic waste abroad.   It's a global problem, but it's where competition kicks in.  Everyone wants things like public transit, green buildings/manufacturing, electric vehicles, etc, so there's opportunity for competition.  But when the president of the United States, one that was democratically elected, is calling it a "hoax" and calling other countries "filthy," it doesn't send a good message.  The overwhelming majority of people in the world don't live in developed democracies.  They would like to raise their standard of living.  They also understand that climate change is a major problem.  Bangladesh, for example, has to balance its growth with the climate threat.  These countries, I'm sure, would love investment in more sustainable growth, from manufacturing infrastructure to transit.  So people need to put their money where their mouth is and help them.  Otherwise, don't be surprised if they take Chinese support for investments in infrastructure.

As the virus shows, politicians use the easy way out to point fingers.  There were politicians (right-wing ones) in the UK and America mentioning lawsuits and reparations back in last spring instead of doing the hard work to actually solve the problem.  For short-termism, it's far too easy to make everything political as opposed to tackling the hard issues.  The thing is, it actually works well.  Trump might've lost, but the GOP did far better down ballot than expected.  Imagine after this year (and the last few), that Americans are so enthusiastic to vote for a party that literally didn't give a shit about the virus (other than insider trading and suppressing data).  Abdicating responsibility and pointing fingers is a great way to get people excited, but one major flaw:  it doesn't solve problems.  Right-wing parties and factions especially win elections (and referendums) and solve no problems.  Just point fingers outside to win.

In an increasing multi-polar world, this just doesn't work.  From investment in Africa to green energy to vaccinating developing countries, people have to put money where their mouth is.
-China builds railroads in Africa ("It's a debt trap!")
-China manufactures stuff ("They're the worst polluter!")
-China provides vaccines to developing countries ("This is vaccine diplomacy with strings attached!")

Cool, so provide an alternative.  Which countries will delay the vaccination of their own citizens and provide attractive loans and investments for developing countries?  Imagine that as a political platform.  You'll be laughed out of every debate.  But the citizens of those other countries aren't waiting.  They need vaccines.  They need infrastructure.  They need green investments.  I'm sure they'd much rather work with the EU and the US, but that feeling isn't necessarily reciprocated unless strings are also attached.  So they look elsewhere for alternatives (and quite frankly, leverage).  In the past, there was no alternative.  Now there is.  It becomes easier for countries to chart its own course:  develop, make itself more attractive, and fight for capital from great powers.

So you want to curb China's influence?  Simple, pick 1:

1. Blow up the modern capitalistic system that demands profits and global trade.
2. Put the money where the mouth is:
-Provide more attractive investment options to developing countries
-Hold leaders and companies accountable for actions (not just them losing elections, but also compensation to other countries)
-Give one-sided deals on countries in the hopes they will shun China

Ultimately, sacrifice self-interest (both domestic and global) to build a global alliance.  Otherwise, it's just a lot of talk.  And based on the leadership being elected these days, talk seems to be at the forefront.  (From the American perspective, let's see how the Georgia run-offs go and what actions Biden will take).
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2020, 04:48:29 pm »
Of course I do. But capitalism is a system in which producers, not consumers, possess power. That is simple economics.

When IG Farben is implicated in the Holocaust I do not blame those who purchase IG Farben products. I blame the board of directors. When the Chinese State dredges the bottom of oceans far and wide for minerals without a thought for the environment or their own slave-labourers I blame them and not you.

Producers don't produce if consumers don't consume.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2020, 06:10:32 pm »
Producers don't produce if consumers don't consume.

Move over Karl Marx, JM Keynes, Karl Polanyi and all the rest of them. We have a new economist in town!

Anyway Fuck off China, you Fascist bastards. And get that bloody Wuhan wet market sorted out. 
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #92 on: December 31, 2020, 06:29:14 pm »
Move over Karl Marx, JM Keynes, Karl Polanyi and all the rest of them. We have a new economist in town!

Anyway Fuck off China, you Fascist bastards. And get that bloody Wuhan wet market sorted out.

Again not sure who pissed on your cornflakes this morning but it wasn't me. If pointing out that producing stuff no one would buy is a bad business strategy puts me up there with the likes of Keynes & Marx then, yes award me the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences.
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Offline Macphisto80

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #93 on: December 31, 2020, 08:17:38 pm »
This post was brought to you via a Samsung Galaxy

*Made in China

I've a question: if you buy something made in China, does that mean you support this fascist regime?

Offline Sangria

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2020, 08:49:23 pm »
This post was brought to you via a Samsung Galaxy

*Made in China

I've a question: if you buy something made in China, does that mean you support this fascist regime?

At the very least it means there is some overlap. But it's not a matter of simple you support it or you do not. I personally think we should be doing more to wean ourselves off dependency on China, but it's only partly political. Shipping stuff thousands of miles across the world is carbon-heavy, and we should look to localise as much as possible.
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Offline FlashGordon

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #95 on: December 31, 2020, 09:10:02 pm »
At the very least it means there is some overlap. But it's not a matter of simple you support it or you do not. I personally think we should be doing more to wean ourselves off dependency on China, but it's only partly political. Shipping stuff thousands of miles across the world is carbon-heavy, and we should look to localise as much as possible.

Agreed and to do that we need to cut down on our consumption because we wouldn't be able to afford as many new products if they were produced here.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #96 on: December 31, 2020, 09:14:11 pm »
At the very least I think we all have a responsibility to think about what we buy. Do we really need it? Can I get a locally produced version? Or spend a bit more on something that will last or is ethically sourced.

That said I wouldn't condemn anyone if they buy something cheaply produced in China because they can't afford better. I'm certainly guilty of it myself, and of course it doesn't mean you support the regime.

Offline John C

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #97 on: December 31, 2020, 10:52:50 pm »
And if we do all those things to self-contain, pat ourselves on the back for reinvigorating regional social value, would China become kinder to it's citizens?

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #98 on: December 31, 2020, 10:59:34 pm »
And if we do all those things to self-contain, pat ourselves on the back for reinvigorating regional social value, would China become kinder to it's citizens?

Yes. Just like in the days of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution when they exported zippety fuck to the rest of the world. In those days China was very kind to its citizens. We made them bad. Especially you Jon.
 
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #99 on: December 31, 2020, 11:03:08 pm »
And if we do all those things to self-contain, pat ourselves on the back for reinvigorating regional social value, would China become kinder to it's citizens?
Maybe not, but the economic power it has now allows it to throw its weight around all over the world.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #100 on: December 31, 2020, 11:59:12 pm »
And if we do all those things to self-contain, pat ourselves on the back for reinvigorating regional social value, would China become kinder to it's citizens?

No but it's a start. How do you think they can remain in such control of their population. Our spending on their products gives them a strong economy. Bad economy means you're more likely to see civil unrest and a questioning of the ways. Only other way to change a system is to invade and overthrow. Good luck to any Western country that goes down that route.

Not being sarcastic here but I'd like to hear any other way China becomes kinder to it's citizens John?
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #101 on: January 1, 2021, 12:00:10 am »
Yes. Just like in the days of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution when they exported zippety fuck to the rest of the world. In those days China was very kind to its citizens. We made them bad. Especially you Jon.

You're making this very emotional. Take a step back. How do you profess to change China for the better?

I say this as someone who gets overly emotional about things as well, but my new idea on how to improve things is to take a step back, not get so hot headed and actually wonder how do you actually get change done.

I'm naturally very argumentative as a person but I've learned that gets you know where.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2021, 12:02:30 am by FlashinGxmastreelightsGordon »
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #102 on: January 1, 2021, 01:33:36 am »
And if we do all those things to self-contain, pat ourselves on the back for reinvigorating regional social value, would China become kinder to it's citizens?

What do you mean by becoming kinder to its citizens? Its rich are notoriously unkind to their fellow citizens, to an extent unthinkable in the west. What we see as barbaric in the Chinese government is accepted as the curbing of the rich and powerful by the Chinese. Unless you're talking about the treatment of the Uighurs, in which case you'll find that the overwhelming majority of Chinese don't care. China is neither a democracy nor liberal.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #103 on: January 1, 2021, 01:37:44 am »
No but it's a start. How do you think they can remain in such control of their population. Our spending on their products gives them a strong economy. Bad economy means you're more likely to see civil unrest and a questioning of the ways. Only other way to change a system is to invade and overthrow. Good luck to any Western country that goes down that route.

Not being sarcastic here but I'd like to hear any other way China becomes kinder to it's citizens John?

It's not possible to understand China without first understanding the degree of its nationalism. That, above all, is how its population is controlled. It's not even driven by the government, but is deeply cultural.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #104 on: January 1, 2021, 03:00:57 am »
It's not possible to understand China without first understanding the degree of its nationalism. That, above all, is how its population is controlled. It's not even driven by the government, but is deeply cultural.

Umm.. I don't think it is. Its definitely as a result of years of Government propaganda and strict control over information. I mean the the idea of "China" as it exists now is less than a century old. For thousands of years before that it was never a singular empire, rather a land controlled by several kingdoms, warlords and nomadic tribes.

Even within China there are many diverse groups many of whom don't identify with government's view of Han Chinese nationalism. See unrest in places like Xinjiang, Tibet, Hong Kong and Outer Mongolia.

Many Chinese people hold negative views of foreign governments and are quite nationalistic, but it is definitely something that that has been enforced post WWII rather than some inherent cultural belief. CCP spends a lot of money and effort to keep that way.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #105 on: January 1, 2021, 03:09:58 am »
Umm.. I don't think it is. Its definitely as a result of years of Government propaganda and strict control over information. I mean the the idea of "China" as it exists now is less than a century old. For thousands of years before that it was never a singular empire, rather a land controlled by several kingdoms, warlords and nomadic tribes.

Even within China there are many diverse groups many of whom don't identify with government's view of Han Chinese nationalism. See unrest in places like Xinjiang, Tibet, Hong Kong and Outer Mongolia.

Many Chinese people hold negative views of foreign governments and are quite nationalistic, but it is definitely something that that has been enforced post WWII rather than some inherent cultural belief. CCP spends a lot of money and effort to keep that way.


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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #106 on: January 1, 2021, 03:11:33 am »
It's not possible to understand China without first understanding the degree of its nationalism. That, above all, is how its population is controlled. It's not even driven by the government, but is deeply cultural.

And largely because of how the multiple invading Japanese armies treated the Chinese.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2021, 03:15:22 am by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline Max_powers

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #107 on: January 1, 2021, 03:25:30 am »

The kingdoms became 1/China 2000yrs ago.

If you had gone and asked any Tibetan if they were Chinese a century ago, I doubt many would have identified as one.

Same would have been the in many parts of modern China in Manchuria, Outer Mongolia, even parts in south of China.

Its a relatively new nation state that has created its national myth using propaganda and school curriculums (Pretty much all nation states do that to some extent).

If all the Chinese people who according to you are just culturally that way, then how do you explain the nationalists in Mainland supporting CCP and those in Taiwan supporting a different version of China? and those in Hong Kong and Tibet wanting none of it?

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #108 on: January 1, 2021, 03:28:03 am »
You're the 1 who brought up the Kingdoms and warlords and that was 2000+yrs ago.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #109 on: January 1, 2021, 03:38:38 am »
You're the 1 who brought up the Kingdoms and warlords and that was 2000+yrs ago.

Yes, hence my point, for majority of its history it was not a single entity. Its more culturally diverse than many think.

In recent times though the CCP has been forcing its cultural and ideological views onto the population. They  present to the world a picture that pretty much all Chinese people are 100% behind their version of nationalism. In reality if you get rid of the surveillance, the propaganda, the censorship and the police state, you will see that  Chinese people do have more nuanced views of their country.

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #110 on: January 1, 2021, 04:10:04 am »
And largely because of how the multiple invading Japanese armies treated the Chinese.

Not really. See Mongolian and Manchurian rule over the Chinese, and before that the various warring periods that killed more than any foreign invasion managed. Chinese nationalism is all about a united China ruled by the Chinese. Japan is a nice recent bugbear for the Chinese government to play up, but Chinese nationalism long predates any Japanese invasion.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #111 on: January 1, 2021, 04:20:21 am »
Umm.. I don't think it is. Its definitely as a result of years of Government propaganda and strict control over information. I mean the the idea of "China" as it exists now is less than a century old. For thousands of years before that it was never a singular empire, rather a land controlled by several kingdoms, warlords and nomadic tribes.

Even within China there are many diverse groups many of whom don't identify with government's view of Han Chinese nationalism. See unrest in places like Xinjiang, Tibet, Hong Kong and Outer Mongolia.

Many Chinese people hold negative views of foreign governments and are quite nationalistic, but it is definitely something that that has been enforced post WWII rather than some inherent cultural belief. CCP spends a lot of money and effort to keep that way.

Really? Hong Kong under the British was the base of modern Han Chinese nationalism. Hawaii was where they gathered. Hong Kong was their base and sanctuary, from which they could infiltrate into mainland China.

BTW, have you heard of the native uprisings in Hong Kong against the British? There were pretty largescale indigenous ones in the 1920s, and again in the 1960s, although the latter may have been driven by ideological Communists.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #112 on: January 1, 2021, 04:55:11 am »
Really? Hong Kong under the British was the base of modern Han Chinese nationalism. Hawaii was where they gathered. Hong Kong was their base and sanctuary, from which they could infiltrate into mainland China.

BTW, have you heard of the native uprisings in Hong Kong against the British? There were pretty largescale indigenous ones in the 1920s, and again in the 1960s, although the latter may have been driven by ideological Communists.

That would have been true once upon a time. However, in recent times, its not like we have seen millions rise up for protests spanning years wanting more autonomy and democratic reforms. More and more Hong Kong natives identify as Hong Kongers rather than as Chinese.

If it was the case that all Chinese people are just culturally programmed to be Chinese Nationalists then how do you explain the the pro-democracy protests, demands for an autonomy and Independence?

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #113 on: January 1, 2021, 08:41:13 am »
You're the 1 who brought up the Kingdoms and warlords and that was 2000+yrs ago.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #114 on: January 1, 2021, 09:20:06 am »
That would have been true once upon a time. However, in recent times, its not like we have seen millions rise up for protests spanning years wanting more autonomy and democratic reforms. More and more Hong Kong natives identify as Hong Kongers rather than as Chinese.

If it was the case that all Chinese people are just culturally programmed to be Chinese Nationalists then how do you explain the the pro-democracy protests, demands for an autonomy and Independence?

And how many dislike these movements? The demonstrations are reported. The griping about disruptions is not. NB. the cameras are usually around Hong Kong. Most of the territory of Hong Kong is not Hong Kong.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #115 on: January 1, 2021, 11:19:39 am »

Hip hop hooray...    >:(

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/31/a-real-bad-precedent-australia-criticised-for-antarctica-airport-plan

'A real bad precedent': Australia criticised for Antarctica airport plan
Multibillion-dollar project is unnecessary and damaging to wildlife, say scientists

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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #116 on: January 1, 2021, 01:58:06 pm »
No but it's a start. How do you think they can remain in such control of their population. Our spending on their products gives them a strong economy. Bad economy means you're more likely to see civil unrest and a questioning of the ways. Only other way to change a system is to invade and overthrow. Good luck to any Western country that goes down that route.


Like you, I'm for a consumer boycott of Chinese goods, but I've no illusions it will ease the lot of the millions suffering under the Fascist regime. In my own work I refuse to have anything to do with the Chinese, although I also know they have a record of breaching copyright with impunity. They just don't care.

As for your hopeful idea that a weakening economy might lead to the Fascist regime becoming more tolerant...well it's hopeful, but there's nothing in the documentary record to show it will work out like that. Look at Iran.  Civil unrest generally comes from emerging classes whose increased prosperity and sense of self-worth is not matched by any parallel increase in political power. For the moment (ie the last 30 years) the Chinese middle class has been happy to take the coin while suffering the humiliation of living under an autocracy that treats them like children (when they are good) and criminals (when they step out of line). Will that go on for ever? Or will there be a bourgeois revolution like there was in the West? Time will tell. But they are taking their time! No one seems more consumerist (and less interested in politics) than the Chinese middle classes. That's only impression I have, so hopefully I'm wrong about that.

Personally I'm pessimistic. I think Chinese power will grow, that human rights will recede and that the new form of Chinese imperialism will enslave large parts of what used to be known as the Third World.

As for getting "emotional" about these things. Yeah, I know it's a bit old fashioned to decry genocide. But if you are going to decry it, then anger is a perfectly respectable idiom in which to do it.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #117 on: January 1, 2021, 02:43:29 pm »
Like you, I'm for a consumer boycott of Chinese goods, but I've no illusions it will ease the lot of the millions suffering under the Fascist regime. In my own work I refuse to have anything to do with the Chinese, although I also know they have a record of breaching copyright with impunity. They just don't care.

As for your hopeful idea that a weakening economy might lead to the Fascist regime becoming more tolerant...well it's hopeful, but there's nothing in the documentary record to show it will work out like that. Look at Iran.  Civil unrest generally comes from emerging classes whose increased prosperity and sense of self-worth is not matched by any parallel increase in political power. For the moment (ie the last 30 years) the Chinese middle class has been happy to take the coin while suffering the humiliation of living under an autocracy that treats them like children (when they are good) and criminals (when they step out of line). Will that go on for ever? Or will there be a bourgeois revolution like there was in the West? Time will tell. But they are taking their time! No one seems more consumerist (and less interested in politics) than the Chinese middle classes. That's only impression I have, so hopefully I'm wrong about that.

Personally I'm pessimistic. I think Chinese power will grow, that human rights will recede and that the new form of Chinese imperialism will enslave large parts of what used to be known as the Third World.

As for getting "emotional" about these things. Yeah, I know it's a bit old fashioned to decry genocide. But if you are going to decry it, then anger is a perfectly respectable idiom in which to do it.

The middle class in China care about greater political power. But not in democratic terms. They care about it in personal terms. They don't want the vote so that they can wield collective power. They want to enjoy advantages so that they can progress up the social ladder.

And in the event of democracy in China, note that the overwhelming majority of its population is Han Chinese. Tibetans, Uighurs and other ethnic minorities are oppressed. You'll probably find that a substantial majority of China's population don't care. Liberalism in China is a rare thing.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #118 on: January 1, 2021, 04:05:40 pm »
The IP conversation is fascinating.  Pretty much any major country that industrializes forces technology transfers or takes technology.  Here's an article from CNN Money in 1987:

https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1987/12/21/69996/index.htm

HOW JAPAN PICKS AMERICA'S BRAINS Much of its economic success has been built on bought, borrowed, or stolen technology. Now U.S. companies are striking back -- but a two-way street is still far off.

Japan acquired much of its base of Western technology, most of it American, perfectly legally through licensing, careful study of scientific papers and patents, and imitation. But when the U.S. wasn't willing to share, some Japanese companies simply copied with little regard for patents and other intellectual property rights that the courts have only recently begun to define in many areas of high technology.

Indeed, technology has been at the root of a number of recent diplomatic flaps between the two countries: sanctions against Japanese electronic products in response to microchip dumping, the illegal sale of Toshiba machine tools to the Soviet Union, demands for access to a big part of Japan's market for U.S. supercomputers, and attempts by Japanese bureaucrats to restrict foreign competition in domestic telecommunications.


Now:  replace Japan with China.  It's easy to be rent-seekers, isn't it?

Japan was/is a crucial western ally that democratized.  Yet, it was demonized (particularly in the US) for IP and technology transfers/theft.  There was a lot of anti-Japanese sentiment whipped up in the 80s.

Going further back, I'd assume the British wasn't thrilled with industrial espionage from the Germany or the US either.

How does a really poor country develop its industry and generate wealth for its people?

It relates to the Third World Yorky mentioned above.  China is owed a relatively small portion of the debt among African countries.  Many other lenders, countries, private institutions, etc are active on the continent.  African countries may take deals depending on the situation.  Whether you're the IMF, World Bank, or the Japanese government (they're fairly active in Africa I think), give these countries a good deal.  Lower rates?  Fewer conditions?  Infrastructure projects?  Technology transfers to help them build their economies?  Have to do more than just complain.

In Asia, the TPP was ready to be signed and sealed.  Although I guess a lot of the parties weren't thrilled with American corporate interests getting thrown in there.  And Trump pulled out of it anyway.

The whole "China is taking over the world" doom-mongering conveniently excuses everyone else from taking actual action.  It's not like it's impossible to help other countries develop, but it's easier to fear-monger than to take action.  China's scaling back on some of its lending anyway I believe.

Internally, the expectations on the Chinese middle class are completely misplaced.  There literally was no middle class 30 years ago.  Anyone with aspirations left the country as soon as they could.  It's exact type of brain drain that hurts much of the developing world.  It's not necessarily that way today.  We know all about the poverty and development.  China's GDP per capita level was similar to that of a sub-Saharan African country in the 70s and 80s (the 90s too I think?).  If you expect a country of 1.4 billion to go from abject poverty and no political freedoms to some highly developed well-functioning democracy in 30 years, you're expecting far too much.

Now, will it change going forward?  Probably.  The needs of the average Chinese person will continue spread and vary, among both economic, social, and political lines.  No one person or party can fulfill all their needs.  There are plenty of examples of countries liberalizing as their economic grows.  The country's middle class is still very young, relatively speaking.  It doesn't look like changing, but as we know, things change fast anyway.  We overestimate change in 2 years and underestimate change in 10 years (I think that's the Bill Gates quote anyway).

From the Western viewpoint, there's a tendency to group all Chinese people together and attribute no agency to the individual.  While it's collective society with an authoritarian government, not recognizing the individual causes a huge amount of friction in analyses.  In fact, there's no perspective taken from any side really.

Here's a what a Chinese person might say:

"We didn't have political or economic freedoms when I was young.  We still don't but our lives have improved dramatically.  Our government answers to us.  We need to have market reforms.  They did it.  We need to curb pollution.  They're building public transit infrastructure and incentivizing use of green energy and vehicles.  We demand Hubei leadership be held accountable for their virus response.  They were fired and replaced.

We look to the western world.  Despite all the available information, all the freedoms one can dream of, and all the possibilities to elect politicians and hold them accountable, we see elected governments that don't care for people domestically or abroad.  We see people deliberately spreading falsehoods and harming society as a whole.  We see politicians that literally insult large swaths of the population but reelected anyway.  We see countries falling behind in infrastructure, healthcare, and education, and elected officials encouraging this.  You're among the wealthiest most free people that has ever existed in humanity, yet you will happily choose people that sabotage your future and treat you like fools.  What a shame."

You can scream until you're blue in the face at that statement ("don't lump me with these people"), but that's what a Chinese person might see, just as what westerners see ("the Chinese don't care about xyz and steal all our stuff").  The thing is, many Chinese will not be content going forward (again, too many issues to resolve), but today, they see accusations on a daily basis from westerners, and they are bewildered, as they don't necessarily see the ongoings in western countries are superior.  One day they will (and indeed millions already do; the seeds of democracy are never far away in a developing country).  But as millions in Wuhan celebrate a New Year, they may be happy that their incompetent officials were sacked, and that they're able to live their lives (somewhat).  Then they peer across and see UK Prime Minister Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, and others bumble their way through an incompetent handling of the virus with populations struggling to get a foothold and wonder why these democracies haven't held these politicians accountable.
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Re: China - a Fascist State
« Reply #119 on: January 1, 2021, 04:19:13 pm »
The middle class in China care about greater political power. But not in democratic terms. They care about it in personal terms. They don't want the vote so that they can wield collective power. They want to enjoy advantages so that they can progress up the social ladder.

Sure, but I meant it in "democratic terms". That's what power is in politics, and has been ever since Aristotle. One can have personal wealth and nice possessions and enough food etc but none of this, alone, is what is understood by "political power." Political power is about having a voice in a national conversation and about deciding what comes next. That's not say, not leaving your destiny (and your fortune and nice possessions) to the whim of an unelected authority. There is an argument, again going back to Aristotle, that the desire to have some control over your political destiny is innate - and history seems to bear this out. 

For the moment, I'll grant, the Chinese middle classes have shown no interest in having any of this. They just want their possessions ("shiny things" I think someone called them earlier). Perhaps they were scared off by what happened to the Democracy movement in 1989.  But it is historically rare for an emerging social class, with the the high self-regard that comes from having status and professional qualifications, not to want some control over the political set-up eventually. People can only suffer so much humiliation.
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