Topic: RAWK Round Table Hull City AFC 3-1 LFC

[Redeo]

It's a tough question though, because that's a problem we've had for a long while, over at least 3 managers, if not 4 or 5.

Which leads to the tough question people might not like the answer to.

What are the common denominators over 3 managers that have led to performances like this?

Lack of depth comes to mind for me. Can Gerrard still be expected to physically command the midfield? If he is to play 90 minutes, then the answer has to be no. If he is to play 15-20 minutes, then who do you bring in instead? A midfield of Lucas, Allen and Henderson?

[robgomm]

What are the common denominators over 3 managers that have led to performances like this?

There is an argument here that when you've had a core of a team like we have that have become used to finishing out of the top four, do you need to change them to really change the mentality? Most of that team yesterday was at the club before Rodgers arrived, a number of those have been key players.

[Twelfth Man]

Mentality, leadership. Something we have been lacking since Souness left. To a lesser degree Carra.

[Hazell]

Nah, both Houllier's (at least prior to the last couple of years) and Rafa's teams had those attributes. Since then, it's been lacking for one reason or another.

[goalrushatgoodison]

Width or lack of it is not a factor in poor performance, though.

Also - I said "common denominators". Not just one.

The other common denominators, player wise are Agger, Skirtel, Johnson and Lucas.

[helmboy_nige]

A lot has been written about the team selection and while there were question marks when I saw the team I still fully expected us to turn Hull over.  And we should have done.  There was enough quality on the pitch but too many players (ie all of them) failed to turn up. There can be no excuse for our team thinking that the win will just come with minimal effort and the performance the players put in reminded me of the dark days of our mentally fragile team from 18+ months ago.

In terms of team selection it's easy to look back now and say that Sterling shouldn't have started and the CB pairing was just wrong, but too many players failed to put in the effort required.

Tactically, I'm not sure if we were playing 4-3-3 but it felt like we had regressed to those early matches under Rodgers when the formation simply didn't work because we lack the quality in the centre to dominate.  Add in the slow tempo and we were on a hiding to nothing.

I actually think that Rodgers is suffering from his own mantra of giving players a chance when they put in an impressive performance.  It's noble that he will alter his viewpoint on a player if they impress him but sometimes the manager needs to be ruthless.  Henderson is an example to every player on how to win your place back in a team.  He fully deserves the praise that has come his way, but just because he managed to turn it around doesn't mean that every player that is on his way out can or should.  Skrtel was out the door and he put in one superb performance and he's now undroppable.  No he isn't.  I like Rodgers flexibility, but it can easily look like indecisiveness if it festers, as it has with the CB pairings.  I know Rodgers goes on about squad depth but he still needs to pick a preferred starting two and I'll challenge anyone who things the pairing should be Toure/Skrtel.

Sterling was an odd choice given that he's looked poor whenever he's played this season (which isn't a lot I know).  I agree he needs games, but surely a game in which you've already lost two of your three main attacking threats is not the time?  It just smacks of overconfidence when it came to Hull and backfired badly.  Sterling has gone backwards quickly and he desperately needs a loan in Jan.

As for Johnson, he really is infuriating.  One day I love him, the next he's like Traore.  Zero effort and commitment in the last two games (one of them a derby).  Time to give someone else a go and if Rodgers is worried about his other rightbacks then switch back to 3 CBs and take the responsibility off them.

Can't particularly fault Mignolet as all of the goals were either lucky deflections or defensive brain farts (or both).

Up front we had nothing and Suarez put in one of those moody stomping around performances that we'd begin to forget about.  Moses asked to get back in the team and he failed to take his chance.

And then there's the midfield.  It seems to me that when we play with a high tempo Henderson, Lucas and Gerrard works.  But if we fail to settle into a quick rhythm early then none of these three seem able to take the game by the scruff of its neck and force something.  People can speculate that Rodgers is like many Liverpool managers who is petrified of dropping Gerrard, but sooner or later a decision needs to be taken.  Gerrard is and always will be a legend but he will not help to dominate possession from deep in midfield unless the opposition sets up to allow it.  Lucas was sloppy and Henderson lacking in ideas.  Allen didn't have a bad game against Everton, he had a terrible split second moment.  It happens.  If Coutinho needed replacing he was a natural choice (given that Alberto is still very raw in terms of prem experience),

My optimistic side always tells me that this is just a one off - a bad day at the office etc etc.  But it has opened up a lot of gaping holes in our entire setup.  What is our preferred defensive formation?  How do we dominate the midfield if a team sets up to close us down heavily?  What's our plan B with no Sturridge?  Hell, what is our preferred formation full stop?

I'm just glad we have a game in a couple of days because it means we have a chance to put this behind us, but I can see a seriously nervous game if we don't start well.

Another positive is that with the exception of Arsenal no team is setting the premier league alight and every single one of our rivals (inc Arsenal) have lost to teams that they really shouldn't.  Win the next two and we'll be back on track, but this game has thrown up way too many questions and no real answers.

[Robbo1980]

First off...we got what we deserved, we should have been going at them from the first minute at a high tempo (generally we have started games very well this year), instead we did what Hull would have been hoping to do and stifled the game....we did it for them, no other  team with hope of CL or even title would have done that....

Secondly we need to get sakho into the team, Toure will drop out now but i also want to see Agger back, as much as Skrtel has done well i want to see that pairing playing together, no better game than v norwich...

I think its blatantly clear now that Lucas and Gerrard isn't working, i think at this point we need to take Lucas (not based on his form) out, have Gerrard playing deeper (yes that right deeper, getting on the ball more and dictating the game for us) again no better team than against Norwich...bring Allen in alongside Henderson and have them doing Gerrards running...

Johnson awful, has been for best part of 11 months barring the odd game, he seems half arsed

What makes this game worse...even worse than Oldham IMO is that Hull were awful, they had no intensity to their play apart from the back 4, they didn't overly press us or create anything, we gifted it to them....

[Draex]

I don't know what is really expected in terms of experience when you have Sterling/Flanagan - young lads, Moses - just going through the motions, Henderson - scared of his own shadow, Skrtel - looks like a hardman but really a kitten, Suarez - isolated and outmuscled 3 men on 1, Johnson - great player but not a leader..

Gerrard and Lucas is pretty much it in terms of players who try to lead, out of a team of 11 it's not enough.

What Rafa did was build a team of leaders - Alonso, Mascherano, Hamann, Hyypia, Carragher, Reina, Gerrard, Kuyt, Torres - all were either ex-captains or huge characters in the dressing room, our team is devoid of this - Toure is a stop gap but he cannot be the answer, everything hangs on Gerrard if he has a bad game more often than not we draw or loose - no-one else will stand up and take responsibility, it's one of the reasons why I don't get not starting Sakho; this guy was club captain of PSG at 18/19 ffs he is a beast, he doesn't wilt under pressure, how he can't be playing after his performance against Ukraine is beyond me it makes zero sense. Yet Skrtel continues to start and has never once in all his years here shown any sort of leadership in any shape or form, he is actually the anti-thesis of what Rodgers says he wants from a player, he retreats backwards when under pressure, he panics.. He kept his place over Agger or Sakho for what reason?

Rodgers goes on a lot about character, this confidence and belief in ones self.. Yet over 3 windows we still have 2/3 leader figures on the pitch and of them he's brought in 1 - Toure.

[johnsmithlfc]

The other common denominators, player wise are Agger, Skirtel, Johnson and Lucas.

Indeed.

I would in fact say that the common denominator is accepting mediocrity....and having mediocre players.
They haven't always been... but we're stagnating and it's been that way for a while.

[Draex]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/male-fish-are-being-feminised-by-river-pollution-1446764.html

Check the waters.

Ooo Kate Moss is doing playboy!

[didi shamone]

I think you are referring to a lack of leadership from our captain again.

Another common denominator in those four managers is a lack of width. This is overlooked too often IMO.

So you're saying we need a fat manager. .

Insipid display from us and it's hard to point at anyone in particular. Just about every player was bad. I don't feel our two center halves compliment each other. It's always a case of Agger and another for me. What about that big black lad that got all the plaudits for a swash buckling display for France after their abject display in the first leg?. Could he be the kind of big character we need?. Our midfield has been done to death and is another area where the dynamic doesn't work. Gerrard was awful but he's one of the few players that can create anything in the attacking sense. If we had an obvious upgrade it would be an easy one to sort but we don't. Losing Sturridge  was a massive blow. Only him and Luis score goals from open play barring the odd blip. It's been debated here before and isn't a problem until we lose one or both. Then we look blunt. Luis was out of sorts and got no support from anywhere so it became impossible to see us score.
As a typical fan when I watch us play badly I think of what we could do to change it. There wasn't much more Rodgers could have done other than the players he brought on. Our squad is quite weak in the attacking sense. Don't believe in slating young players. You need patience to allow them develop and that's the hardest thing about it. The thing is every team plays shite from time to time. The best sides have the attacking talent to overcome it mostly. We're not quite there yet. Not time to panic yet. We're still at the point where we can call it a blip. Aren't we?.

[Redeo]

So you're saying we need a fat manager. .

From what I remember, Rafa was working on the width during the final phase of his management. Didn't seem to help...

[Upinsmoke]

I liked reading Pop and Co's analysis post match, trying to look for reasoning whilst I'm bombing about the house ranting like a mentalist..

The game against Hull though was one of them, everything about it was wrong, from a 2.05 ko on a Sunday to the shithole of a place, city and the ground. Felt like the FA Cup tie against Oldham or Mansfield that you just can't enjoy because the opposition make it difficult and the whole atmosphere just isn't right..

It really one of those where we never turned up, but it was worse than that too. At the time it wasn't a bad team I thought, but then again nobody forseen the attitude of the guys on the pitch and the way the manager just never did too much to change things besides the introduction of Coutinho. Everyone was to blame really and I suppose the small piece of comfort I can take is that we can't play that bad again.

[redintweed]

Indeed, I agree with this sentiment. The question for me (and I stated it in the match day thread as well) is, does this represent a regression to the mean or just a dip in an otherwise long run of excellent form dating back to last season? One way many have been viewing this season is a continuation of Post-January 2013. To my mind though, this result is akin to so many others we have seen over the last 5 years - whenever the team looks like establishing itself, taking a step forward to the next level, turning the corner and actually accelerating along the main straight, it falls flat on its face and drops back into the chasing pack. The last few weeks have seen some very bad results as the early season excitement wears off and the drudgery of the season really starts. Its great they are still competitive, but with so many tough games left in the season (City, Chelsea and Spurs home and away, United away, Arsenal and Everton at home) it could prove a real struggle in the second half of the season.

What worries me the most though is that the team hasn't really moved to a new level. To date Rodgers has spent Ł95-6 million on players and recouped about Ł35m. That's about Ł60 million net on players (a significant investment on players), but so far we have only seen Coutinhio, Sturridge and Mignolet really establish themselves (representing about Ł30-1 million of that gross spend). So where was the other Ł65 million? Allen, Sahko, Alberto and Aspas were on the bench yesterday, Borini was on loan, hitting the crossbar at Sunderland. Ilori didn't even make the match day squad. Its all very well to say 'ones for the future' but Liverpool are not currently so well off that they can let Ł65 million be spent on players that don't improve the first team.

Yesterday was very telling in that regard. Sturridge was the only first team player out and Rodgers post match complained his side lacked depth. So what of all that money spent? It looks increasingly like a poor investment and to expect a team that is predominantly made up of players from two regimes that had the club mired firmly outside the CL spots to suddenly become competitive and win the league or finish top four is unlikely. Hence my agreement with Diggler's statement.

What you would expect for the money that Rodgers has spent (particularly this summer) was players to come straight into the side and improve it. Instead a lot of money was sitting on the bench - it would seem therefore that Rodgers either doesn't trust the new players, or cannot decide on his first XI. Not a good sign after about 15 months in charge. More worryingly I have seen a number of posters agree that the midfield needs strengthening in January for the long slog ahead. If I was one of the owners I would be looking at Rodgers and saying "what about Allen and Alberto, that's Ł22 million right there." The club has also been linked with Montoya: again the owners would be well within their rights to point at Sahko and Ilori and raise their collective eyebrows. Similarly up front, Ł11 million Borini on loan... They might very well be nervous about giving him more money while so many purchases remain splintery arsed.

To sum up, yesterday has been coming a while but what makes it more worrying is that its about the third uninspired performance in four games (3-3 was exciting, but it was Liverpool snatching a lucky draw at the death after being dominated for much of the game) and still our new purchases remain unused, while old purchases are barely getting a look in. Transfer are supposed to improve on what exists, when the manager fails to succeed in his transfers, well, its not a good sign. The question is, was a Hull a sign of a downward spiral to 7/8th with no new blood turning the tide, or a blip?

Quite a few home truths there. Quite sobering. Many would want to argue, but for the life of me, there is no come backs on some of the points made. And that really disappoints me. For BR to bemoan the lack of depth after who he has bought and how much has been spent, is a bit rich. I'm a fan of his, but we seem to be losing our way a bit. A lot of our wins this season really are just papering over the cracks. Some of the performances have been very average, but the brilliance of SAS has got us out of jail.

I actually think some of the players are just assuming that Luis (or Daniel) will do the business and win the game for us. I'm a Henderson fan just due to his determination and never say die attitude. But yesterday he didn't offer anything at all. Yes he ran his socks off but he needs to start demanding the ball and doing something with it. There's no point in getting it, taking a touch and then just passing to another player who isn't in a better position. He has the ability to play a defense splitting pass but doesn't seem to want to take the responsibility.

I'll put my hand up and say I was wrong about Moses as well. I thought he could be the missing piece in the puzzle. Someone who would run at players, beat them and make defnders really think about things, which would give otherrs more space. Sadly it just doesn't seem to be working out. His attempted lob over the defender which led to the first goal would have given BR a near stroke. I was just gob smacked. To attempt that deep in your own half as others are streaming forward just reeked of "I don't give a fuck". And that in the week where he came out in the press bemoaning playing time etc. hard to see BR putting his faith in him too much from now on. He might be better served moving on to be honest.

Poor Raheem Sterling. He certainly has some ability. That is beyond doubt. But the England call up and everyone singing his praises has probably done him no good at all. We just expect too much now. BR was right, we need to manage him and the expectations. A loan with an attack based Championship side would do him the world of good and get him out of the spotlight for a while. But sadly we have limited wide options at the moment so he'll probably have to stay. At least he tried a few things yesterday and had a go at turning his man. His final ball is still a bit ordinary though and Luis really gave him death stares a couple of times during the game.

I'm a huge Glen Johnson fan as well. He's in my fantasy League team. But yesterday would have to be the worst game I've ever seen him play. It was like he was crook or something. He just seemed disinterested. Defensively he was all over the shop and offered next to nothing going forward. I hope it's just a blip as he really is quality. Young Flanagan got a lot of praise after the Derby. I disagreed with it so kept my silence. Between Mirallas and Dualefeu, I thought he was tought a lesson. He has a huge ticker, no question and he is still very young. He needs games and needs experience. Everyone wants to see a local lad in the team, but he needs experience. He won't get that playing once in a blue moon in the first team. Same as Raheem, he needs a loan.

Everyone seems to be saying that Agger and Sakho should start in the centre of defense. Pretty hard to argue that at the moment. Agger brings the ball out really well and Sakho is a monster in the air. Would Sakho have prevented Lukaku's headed goal last week? Who knows, but he would've made it much harder than GJ did. I agree with lots of the posters that say we need to settle on a partnership pronto and stick with it.

Enough has been said about the midfield. Not enough incisiveness about it for me. My only point is that Stevie should be playing in the attacking role if Countinho is not there. He was superlative in the role under Rafa.

Luis's body language was terrible as well. He seemed to have a sulk on for most of the game. Maybe his body is at a breaking point and he can't do what he wants to do. Afterall, he had the crap kicked out of him last week.

3 losses and all to teams that have pressed us. Southampton have given teams the blueprint to trouble us. Many will follow suit and we need to work out a way to counter that press. Lumping it long certainly didn't work yesterday, especially when Daniel isn't there. A bit of homework for the management team I think.

I'm hoping that BR can sort things out soonish. We need to, as the next 4 to 6 weeks will really determine whether or not we can get top 4. There won't be a better chance than this season to get there. All the top teams are dropping points. Chelsea are staring to gain momentum though ans Aresenal look very strong. There will be 2 spots up for grabs. Let's make one ours.

[na fir dearg]

having calmed down a bit from yesterday, just looking back at the game it was a really poor overall performance, reasons for this are unknown to me, complacency thinking Hull would roll over?

Moses and Sterling - they dont start again for me after those performances.
I used to love watching Johnson tear up the right side but he now consistently gives the ball away cheaply.
Midfield wasnt the cause of the defeat yesterday but still needs a top quality DM to come in imo

For me the underlying problem (which has been there since last season) is the inability to defend/clear crosses and setpieces. This is costing us cheap goals (newcastle and everton) - something radical needs to be done here, maybe a new defensive coach or something along those lines

Until this is sorted then we always look like conceding cheap goals which imo leads to a lack of confidence throughout the team - when we score a couple first we seem to get away with it but in general it seems that when we go behind first you almost know whats going to happen next

Ive always believed you make your team solid at the back first and then build the rest of the team - its like Rodgers has started with the attacking side of things first.

Thank the Lord we signed Mignolet as at least we have a top keeper who has earned us a few points already this season.

[robgomm]

The criticism that S&S have saved us this season seems curious to me as Rodgers set them up to do score the lionshare of the goals. That was his tactical nous that got them both playing up front, able to work together. It's not like they've scored their goals in a vacuum from the rest of the team.

[GrkStav]

I am sorry, what is the definitive list of common denominators among our last four managers?

[nozza]

How we respond is more the question for me. Every year, every team has a game like this, Man City got theirs out the way at Cardiff, Arsenal home to Villa, Man U have had a few but West brom springs to mind, Chelsea lucky not to lose to West Brom. I just hope it was a one off and we don't turn another fucking dire performance in like that again. I was thinking last week that our mentality was much better this year, yesterday just goes to show. We have a tendency to be brought down to a teams level,especially when the tempo is that slow. Why we don't come marauding out the blocks the first 15 mins against teams like this baffles me.
 I still cant get me head around the fact that every time a ball comes into our box someone pushes the panic button and it's like fuckin Billy Smarts circus, complete shambles and comical decision making, just put your foot through the ball and get rid, or for once get a decent header on it..drives me mad. If Kolo would have put as much effort into clearing the ball as did beating his hands into the ground ....ahh well..starting to rant, that was a twat of a game and it's still doing me head in.

[Sangria]

I am sorry, what is the definitive list of common denominators among our last four managers?

Last 4 managers (earliest first):
Benitez
Hodgson
Dalglish
Rodgers

Players who've made appearances under Benitez and who are currently part of Liverpool squad (earliest first):
Gerrard
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Johnson
Kelly

[Redeo]

The criticism that S&S have saved us this season seems curious to me as Rodgers set them up to do score the lionshare of the goals. That was his tactical nous that got them both playing up front, able to work together. It's not like they've scored their goals in a vacuum from the rest of the team.

Yes, but then again Rodgers has set them up to score the lionshare of the goals because S&S are clearly standing out in terms of the quality from the rest of our team. They clearly are a top-four striker partnership. Could you say the same for our midfield trio? We had a different set up on Sunday, with Sturridge out, and it didn't really look like others would chip in with goals...

[robgomm]

Yes, but then again Rodgers has set them up to score the lionshare of the goals because S&S are clearly standing out in terms of the quality from the rest of our team. They clearly are a top-four striker partnership. Could you say the same for our midfield trio? We had a different set up on Sunday, with Sturridge out, and it didn't really look like others would chip in with goals...

I agree there's a lack of depth, I just think it's an odd thing to try to argue that S&S have done it alone and have 'saved us' this season. What manager wouldn't set his team up around two top notch strikers? Rodgers' is job is now to find the goals in the rest of the team for sure.

[Draex]

I agree there's a lack of depth, I just think it's an odd thing to try to argue that S&S have done it alone and have 'saved us' this season. What manager wouldn't set his team up around two top notch strikers? Rodgers' is job is now to find the goals in the rest of the team for sure.

Exactly what Utd are doing with RVP and Rooney - without them the rest of the team is gash.

[Mighty_Red]

Aside from the starting line-up and tactics, the big thing that is worrying me is that we still have not won a game in the 2nd half. That is, if we are not already in a winning position at HT, then we do not win the match.

Sometimes you will have a poor 1st half, that happens. What we should be doing is making a big improvement in the 2nd half, and especially the latter stages. However we have played worse in most matches.

We were drawing at HT against Soton, Newcastle and Hull. We really shouldve been coming through to win each of these games.

No doubt that Brendan accepted responsibility for the loss, but he needs to find a way to change matches in our favour. Yes we equalised against Newcastle & Everton, but we should never have been in those positions in any case.

Obviously the other major problem is the form of the fringe players - they are not doing enough to either step in when called upon, or push the first choice guys for their places. Allen, Moses, Sterling et al should be showing us why they should be in the team but instead they are playing far below their own levels let alone what is required for a top 4 team.

[John C]

At the beginning of the season you scan the fixtures looking for the Derby's, the Man U games and ponder on which will be the inevitable home and away shockers. Hopefully now we've seen them and we're clean for the rest of the season with big and bad lessons learnt. Or have we?

The Southampton home defeat may not have been a shocker as they are a good side, but  we entered that that game in a good run of form at home to a side we really should be winning as part of our bread 'n' butter campaign. And although dropping 2-points to 10-men Newcastle was shocking, its wasn't the annual away shocker. Hull was though. Few people contemplated us dropping any points which was supposed to be the platform for a 9-point victory run.

So why should we feel that this won't happen again? Well given that we experienced at least two such performances last season and we bickered amongst ourselves as to whether our new manager was learning on the job I have to say I'm not entirely convinced we won't see it again. And that's because its difficult to see a very settle side developing now as the season emerges, injuries take their toll and players get jaded. Well, not unless we make a couple of astonishing signings in January that will plug the big gaps left after the loss of a Coutinho or a Sturridge.

As for the lessons, Toure & Skrtel must never be first choice away from home when Sakho is available.
Moses & Sterling in the same side is clearly not an optimum attacking option and switching their wing positions for part of the game solves nothing.
The combination of Henderson, SG & Lucas won't work every week. Good luck with the answer to that one Brendan.
But most of all I'd like Brendan to think about his own decision making, he needs to impact a game himself more decisively. Earlier decision making and tactical instructions delivered with even a modicum of animation may help.

[Robinred]

Indeed, I agree with this sentiment. The question for me (and I stated it in the match day thread as well) is, does this represent a regression to the mean or just a dip in an otherwise long run of excellent form dating back to last season? One way many have been viewing this season is a continuation of Post-January 2013. To my mind though, this result is akin to so many others we have seen over the last 5 years - whenever the team looks like establishing itself, taking a step forward to the next level, turning the corner and actually accelerating along the main straight, it falls flat on its face and drops back into the chasing pack. The last few weeks have seen some very bad results as the early season excitement wears off and the drudgery of the season really starts. Its great they are still competitive, but with so many tough games left in the season (City, Chelsea and Spurs home and away, United away, Arsenal and Everton at home) it could prove a real struggle in the second half of the season.

What worries me the most though is that the team hasn't really moved to a new level. To date Rodgers has spent Ł95-6 million on players and recouped about Ł35m. That's about Ł60 million net on players (a significant investment on players), but so far we have only seen Coutinhio, Sturridge and Mignolet really establish themselves (representing about Ł30-1 million of that gross spend). So where was the other Ł65 million? Allen, Sahko, Alberto and Aspas were on the bench yesterday, Borini was on loan, hitting the crossbar at Sunderland. Ilori didn't even make the match day squad. Its all very well to say 'ones for the future' but Liverpool are not currently so well off that they can let Ł65 million be spent on players that don't improve the first team.

Yesterday was very telling in that regard. Sturridge was the only first team player out and Rodgers post match complained his side lacked depth. So what of all that money spent? It looks increasingly like a poor investment and to expect a team that is predominantly made up of players from two regimes that had the club mired firmly outside the CL spots to suddenly become competitive and win the league or finish top four is unlikely. Hence my agreement with Diggler's statement.

What you would expect for the money that Rodgers has spent (particularly this summer) was players to come straight into the side and improve it. Instead a lot of money was sitting on the bench - it would seem therefore that Rodgers either doesn't trust the new players, or cannot decide on his first XI. Not a good sign after about 15 months in charge. More worryingly I have seen a number of posters agree that the midfield needs strengthening in January for the long slog ahead. If I was one of the owners I would be looking at Rodgers and saying "what about Allen and Alberto, that's Ł22 million right there." The club has also been linked with Montoya: again the owners would be well within their rights to point at Sahko and Ilori and raise their collective eyebrows. Similarly up front, Ł11 million Borini on loan... They might very well be nervous about giving him more money while so many purchases remain splintery arsed.

To sum up, yesterday has been coming a while but what makes it more worrying is that its about the third uninspired performance in four games (3-3 was exciting, but it was Liverpool snatching a lucky draw at the death after being dominated for much of the game) and still our new purchases remain unused, while old purchases are barely getting a look in. Transfer are supposed to improve on what exists, when the manager fails to succeed in his transfers, well, its not a good sign. The question is, was a Hull a sign of a downward spiral to 7/8th with no new blood turning the tide, or a blip?

Exactly. BR gets far more leeway afforded him than he is actually entitled to - why?

Presumably because he is a modern, progressive coach who talks the talk and clearly wishes to have his teams play on the front foot.

But (and it's a big but) he seems incapable of making the seriously awkward decisions anyone with half a football brain can see need to be made. Gerrard still has amazing quality, but needs to be deployed further forward, where his lack of defensive discipline and energy won't handicap the team as they currently do. Second, he needs to forget that meritocracy crap which apparently sees our third (arguably fourth) best CB starting. Third, he needs to stop playing totally different systems for every opponent and instead give some game time to players who have warranted a decent purchase fee and have shown enough to have a run-out. Yes, I'm talking Allen and Alberto.

[GrkStav]

Last 4 managers (earliest first):
Benitez
Hodgson
Dalglish
Rodgers

Players who've made appearances under Benitez and who are currently part of Liverpool squad (earliest first):
Gerrard
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Johnson
Kelly

I think we can eliminate Kelly as an 'active' common denominator. So, we're left with:

Gerrard, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Johnson.

What, if anything, do they themselves have in common?

By the way, and unrelated to the above, almost everyone whose post-game analysis I have read so far has really provided primarily an analysis of the 2nd half of the match. I just finished re-viewing the first half.

While we weren't exactly "dominant" we did in fact look the superior team on the pitch. Based on my observations, we were mostly in a 4231 (i.e. effectively 2 4 3 1), as Gerrard was more often than not either parallel with Lucas (or vice-versa, I suppose) than with Henderson. Johnson had a stinker of a first half with the exception of two okayish long balls. He was half-a-second to a second too late, indecisive and timid at one moment, impetuous and clueless in the next. Flanagan, in all honesty, played better than we should expect. Moses was quite ineffective as an 'outlet' for passes from the CBs, CMs and the LB. Sterling was (surprising, based on faulty memory) industrious and active but not particularly effective. So was Henderson who appeared to revert to his 'clueless in space but full-of-effort' form). Suarez was active, as usual, but not in sync with Moses, Sterling or Henderson. Gerrard was ho-hum. I assume he found himself where he found himself on the pitch by design. If not, and it wasn't BR's plan to have him be there and play thus, then I despair.

Skrtel was good in clearing most long balls and generally okay. Why he was our LCB, though, I'll never know. Toure was okay, generally composed, but he had a couple of brain-farts (perhaps by osmosis by being so 'close' to Johnson).

We had something like 5 corner-kicks in the first 10 mins, one almost clear-cut chance with Henderson off a low cross by Moses, and another almost clear-cut chance with Suarez surprisingly tame effort at goal near the end of the first half. Of course, well-done on the free-kick that we scored on. Mignolet had a couple of decent (but expected) saves. Not a good presence on high crosses off set-pieces, and mediocre distribution with his feet.

Oh, and Lucas. Middling performance from him, one or two errand passes (for one of which he was really at fault) and one occasion where he was a bit slow to react to an obvious pass from Skrtel. Otherwise, with Gerrard pretty much next to him, he basically attempted maybe one or two of his 'vertical' passes.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Exactly. BR gets far more leeway afforded him than he is actually entitled to - why?

Presumably because he is a modern, progressive coach who talks the talk and clearly wishes to have his teams play on the front foot.

But (and it's a big but) he seems incapable of making the seriously awkward decisions anyone with half a football brain can see need to be made. Gerrard still has amazing quality, but needs to be deployed further forward, where his lack of defensive discipline and energy won't handicap the team as they currently do. Second, he needs to forget that meritocracy crap which apparently sees our third (arguably fourth) best CB starting. Third, he needs to stop playing totally different systems for every opponent and instead give some game time to players who have warranted a decent purchase fee and have shown enough to have a run-out. Yes, I'm talking Allen and Alberto.

Hang on a second there, fellows.


If he spent Ł60m net, and Coutinho, Sturridge and Mignolet represent Ł30m of that net, then what remains is Ł30m, not Ł65m. Sakho represents Ł15m of that remaining Ł30m net, so that leaves Ł15m net that he can be criticised for. Which, actually, represents a 25% "failure" rate, which is MORE than acceptable for any manager.

Or, net spend is a crap argument for or against anything.

[DanA]

I didn't think the balance was never right for the game. We started off too direct with Sterling and Moses and ended up lacking width and players making attacking runs. I think we'd have looked much better if we had one of Alberto or Coutinho on the pitch and one of Sterling or Moses on the pitch rather than both or none. I still think the 4-2-2-2 formation is the way for us to play even if that means playing Moses as a striker.

[Draex]

I think we can eliminate Kelly as an 'active' common denominator. So, we're left with:

Gerrard, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Johnson.

What, if anything, do they themselves have in common?

You could argue they all have zero competition in common (or did), obviously now Agger and Skrtel have seen compeition come in their performances have gone up significantly.

[Prof]

I think we can eliminate Kelly as an 'active' common denominator. So, we're left with:

Gerrard, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Johnson.

While I understand why this has been raised, a more pertinent question is this:

Since Rafa was given the boot 3 and a half years ago, who has been brought in to replace the players he left us with who have moved elsewhere/retired?

Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho, Mignolet, Enrique and Henderson.

Which just about gives us a decent starting XI.

Behind those six, we've had/got a lot of question marks.  We were missing three of that XI from our starting XI through fitness and one for unknown reasons.

Until we keep players who are good enough for the squad when upgrading, we will be on this ever-changing carousel.

[Filler.]

I listened to the game on the radio, so my 'youropiniondoesn'tcount' rating is through the ceiling here. I know that, you know that, so skip this.


I don't know what it was, but I was slightly nervous about this game. And I can't put my finger on it to the extent that it would be worth sharing with anybody. Hull, Norwich, West Ham, then some 'big' games had alot to do with it tho. I'm always nervous, so is this hindsight coming to the fore? No, there was something else. I was in the 1-0 shit win mode well before I heard Sturridge was out, and to be fair, I'm nearly always in that mode. Give me 38 shit wins and I'd be fine. Sometimes, during the last quarter of a century now, we've found ourselves in a certain position, where we've got games ahead that we should be taking maximum points from, to give us a bit of Bisto going into more troublesome, difficult games - and if you come through those relatively unscathed, you can look to press on on whatever target we find ourselves in, but we fall at the first hurdle - the one we were supposed to jog over. Am sure every fan of any club has the same thing, and then they go on and beat a team that's been blitzing everyone. Which we can do of course, but still, do we do this more than others?

So Sturridge is out, and the teamsheets get posted up. OK, Flanaghan on the left... but Toure and Skrtel? And is this a 433? With Suarez as the lone striker? I've never liked Suarez as the lone striker, even when he was scoring goals, and Rodgers solved the problem with teaming him up with Sturridge as a two. It solved other problems too - it allowed Coutinho to operate to his best, and it gave this awkward midfield of ours a reason to exist. So I was thinking and hoping that we'd team up Sterling or Moses with Suarez, with maybe Sterling and Moses switching a bit in a 4312 type thing, but it had the whiff off 433. As another thread is currently discussing., we don't have a 433 in us, and Suarez isn't a lone striker. I was listening to the game and hearing the commentary and it may have well been Dirk Kuyt alone up front. If you have a lone striker, then just make sure he's occupying the central defenders and them only. Don't go wandering off and fighting battles that others should be doing. Suarez isn't a lone striker... he needs a buddy - someone to play off.

But... OK.. go with 433 see what happens... you've got Coutinho on the bench, and Aspas. Why was Aspas on the bench if he didn't get onto the pitch? Didn't understand that. He could play in his proper position finally, and in a recognisable shape could be found again.

I thought Skrtel would have been taken off at half time for Agger - a left foot, a player, and then Aspas to come on later- go back to the shape that gets the best out of Suarez, and the team. I also wondered why Johnson wasn't switched with Flanaghan - just to try and work out something. Young player on the left, more comfortable on the right, experienced player on the right, done OK on the left. Just toc hange it a bit. We had Coutinho AND Alberto on at the same time... that was odd. But, even with 20 minutes remaining... listening on a radio - we weren't going to rescue anything.


Instead of heading into the middle game on Sunday, we're into it now, and we've a massive challenge on our hands. Iago Aspas... this is what you've waited for.... enjoy yourself. Just enjoy the opportunity and don't think too much. Just go out there and bloody enjoy it.

[Red Bird]

It's a tough question though, because that's a problem we've had for a long while, over at least 3 managers, if not 4 or 5.

Which leads to the tough question people might not like the answer to.

What are the common denominators over 3 managers that have led to performances like this?

Playing Gerrard in anything other than an attacking position must be one, surely? We had our best result and Gerrard's best performances under Benitez when he played off the right or, if centrally, behind the main striker.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

During the first ten minutes of the game, I said to my brother "the only way Hull will beat us, is if we're shitter than them, we'll have to try bloody hard" but somehow we conspired to put in the most gutless and disjointed performance I have seen under Rodgers. Back to back games where our starting line ups have handicapped us, bizarre inclusions and omissions that remind me of Rodgers from the first half of last season.

Skrtel should be nowhere near the starting line-up, I don't know what information he has on Rodgers, because that's the only reason why he's still in the team. Tentative on the ball, not trusting his teammates, going for balls that aren't his, challenging his own players for the ball. I'm done with Skrtel and I thought Rodgers was too. You could quite convincingly pin all three goals on Skrtel, he had a major hand in all of them.

Last season, there was a period where Rodgers' would start Allen over Henderson, in games where Henderson was the much better fit, it came to a head in the away match against Southampton, where we were beaten 3-1 and Henderson came into the team and Allen was left. Well now we have a situation where Henderson is starting games that Allen should be starting.

We didn't need Henderson's off the ball attributes against Hull, we needed someone like Allen (or even Alberto) who can keep calm in possession, play the ball around and build attacks. I don't think we had one period of sustained pressure, where we were able to pin them on their 18 yard line. We were nearly as open as we were in the Everton game, without the cutting edge.

Disappointing is how I would describe the game in a word, three points we've thrown away without a fight and it will be results like these that cost us if we miss out on a top four place.

[Torpedo Tommy]

We do lack depth - fully agree with that point but I would not have expected it to be made so glaringly obvious against a team that lost 1-0 at home to the bottom club who had 10 men last week.

Decided to avoid this place as I was a bit pissed up and still very pissed off yesterday evening.  That performance lacked so much yesterday.  It lacked what a 10 man Crystal Palace team had which hurts a bit.  If losing two or three of our main players means we are that weak then we may has well give up on top half let alone top 4.

The last 135 minutes of football have been unacceptable in so much as achieving a top four finish is concerned.  We have a young right back playing left back and still keep changing the centre back pairing and formation in front of them.  Do we have the squad depth to do that?  No - probably not but maybe we should have versus a team that do not score goals.  Do we have the correct mentality?  I think that is a big problem and as much a problem as the team selection in itself.

Is the midfield of Lucas, Gerrard and Henderson good enough?  No - not to perform on a consistent basis anyway.  Gerrard is too deep and whilst some of the 40 yard passes came off, a lot didn't.  Henderson didn't show and it has to be said that neither Sterling nor Moses did themselves justice.  Will Moses be here at the end of the season?  Probably not.  Will Sterling benefit from a long term loan deal?  Probably.  The only thing that worries me about Sterling is his lack of physical size and just how much more he can develop.

It's been said that we have passed up opportunities to close the gap on the teams at the top in the last 5 years on a number of occasions.  The reality is that this has happened for a much much longer period.  We did the same under Roy Evans and - and save for a few instances in the last 20 years - this has been the difference between us being a team that challenges for the title and a team of also rans.  Let's see how Hull cope against Arsenal in midweek to get a decent reflection on just how shite we were.

The positives?  Very few from that performance.  I'd have still taken where we are in the league now at the beginning of the season but can't help thinking that just a few more slip ups and results going wrong for us will see the reality hit home and see us down to 7th-8th in the table.

Our next two games now become vital with Spurs/City/Chelsea on the horizon.

[rola]

I think we're getting stuck in the mentality that formations and tactical plans win most matches. They mean nothing unless the style of play, approach and mentality is right to go with it. Clearly it isn't.  We're switching formations, personnel and partnerships all over the place. We had the best available left back playing at right back, a young right back playing at left back, a right sided CB playing left side, a barely fit CB playing along side him, and two players either side of Suarez who looked like they haven't kicked a football in anger in weeks.  Squeeze our midfield trio (whisper it - not even the best midfield in Liverpool anymore) between those two lumps of stale bread and you've got a shit tactical sandwich. 

As ever, we look like we lack leaders on the pitch (Suarez and Gerrard apart). It doesn't help when you leave form players (Sakho) and leaders (Agger) on the bench.  But that's because two left footed players can't play together in central defence and two right footed players can apparently. Maybe this result proves the point that you do need balance in central defence after all. Right then - time to change it up then and go with a right sided and left sided CB partnership and stick with it. Let them develop a partnership. If not, then can we play our best two CBs - Sakho and Agger?

The players look confused and lack the ability to respond when things don't go to plan.  Did I mention leaders? 

We looked off from the start - long balls to Suarez with the expectation that he controls it, beats their defence and wins the game on his own.  Pressing? we seem to have given up on that - no longer fashionable now that Southampton do it better? Maybe we just don';t have the players for it.  Difficult to press when 2 out of your 3 midfielders don't have the legs for it.  Anyway  Suarez had the look of a man who knew he was in for a frustrating afternoon, especially when he looked around him and saw lots of players looking back at him waiting for him to win the game.

It was an accident waiting to happen.  We thought we had this won on the tactics board.  Fine if everyone turns the theory into practice.  In theory, we have plenty of time to prepare.  we have plenty of time to get players fit and work patterns and shape and movement in training. we have plenty of time to practice defending set pieces. We have plenty of time…maybe, just maybe we have too much of it on our hands, and we spend a lot of it trying to be too clever by half.

Its frustrating to wait all week for the game and to see that shower of shite - everyone associated with it should be ashamed.  It happens though right? It's not a new thing for us.  We believe our own hype, we win a couple of games, we get complacent and fall flat on our faces. You know as soon as we start to get a bit too pleased with ourselves being top 4 (2nd no less), than that's the time we stutter and splutter and slip out of it. 

Maybe this time it will be different - there'll be a response and not just for Norwich and West Ham, but beyond that, into the New Year and beyond.  A bit more steel, a bit more consistency.  a big test of BR's leadership skills ahead - show the players the way forward. 

I think we need to settle the back 4 (or 3) or whatever the fuck we're meant to be doing at the back and build from there. And get some decent support for Suarez.  Even if it means playing SG further up in midfield (which we did all too briefly against Hull and actually looked quite good I thought).  But then again, we appear to have decided that SG is a deep lying playmaker now, so he sits and passes, and gets gradually knackered by about the 60 minute mark. Player him higher up I say. Coutinho from the left. But haven;t we decided he plays "in the hole" now (even though he looked great when he played cutting in from left when he first played. Aspas supporting Suarez from right.  Henderson and Lucas holding. Or Allen. whichever two can stay on their feet facing the right way for most of the game.  Look I don't want much - just get them to turn up next time, ok Brendan? 

[Torpedo Tommy]

Obviously the other major problem is the form of the fringe players - they are not doing enough to either step in when called upon, or push the first choice guys for their places. Allen, Moses, Sterling et al should be showing us why they should be in the team but instead they are playing far below their own levels let alone what is required for a top 4 team.

Yep - definitely so

[latortuga]

I think people are still not accepting that Rodgers made the decision at the beginning of the season that he would play whatever formation or whichever player he felt would give the team the best chance of getting a good result and that is what he is doing.  It's kind of like a sacrifice one season approach for the potential hugh payoff of finishing fourth. 

Inherent in this chopping and changing is that Rodgers will get it completely wrong on occasion, as he feels he did in this game and as I believe he did against Arsenal.  Effectively this means sacrificing his own possession based football principles in the short term for the good of Champions League football.  How else will we keep our best player?  Of course we do still try and pass the ball around to the best of our ability, but take away the pressure of this results business Rodgers finds himself in, would he not put Allen and Alberto in the game more in place of Henderson or Gerrard.  Wouldn't he start with Agger as the number one choice at CB?

[Advil]

Hope Rodgers will start believing that we can win all matches. For example when we conceded the 2nd Goal, we should have followed the Man United team for the past era (I hate them but it shows how much they were gambling for win) . Send in all the attacking options. Better to lose 3-1 if we have a chance of getting the equaliser or trning the match around to win. Without Sturridge, he could have put out this team when he was chasing the match:

                        Suarez   Aspas   

Coutinho   Gerrard/Hendo    Alberto    Moses/Sterling

[Danny_]

Not much to be said (at least not positive anyway) but other results went our way for the most part.  We are in a race with Spurs and United for 4th place (can't believe I'm actually saying that we are in a race with United for 4th place).  We lost one point to each of them and now they are 2 and 3 points behind us.  We definitely need to go on a run of some kind. 

On the subject of the game, a few things stuck out. 

1. We need to settle on a back four and stick with them.  You just can't keep rotating at CB as our CBs have to develop a partnership. 
2. Toure needs to learn that when he has a lot of space ahead of him, he should run into it rather than immediately passing the ball.  Okay, I understand him immediately passing the ball when there is a break on but there were numerous occasions in the game when he had yards of space ahead of him and instead of bring the ball out and drawing the man onto him, he passed it straight away.  That makes less space for the players ahead of him
3. Coutinho didn't look injured.  If he wasn't injured, why on earth didn't he start? Now that Sturridge is injured, he simply has to start.  Otherwise, the only player that the opposition really has to worry about is Suarez and they double or triple team him without suffering much from this as the others (except for maybe Gerrard) are not able to take advantage.  End result is that Suarez is frustrated and marked out of the game.
While Sturridge is out, Coutinho simply has to start.  Also, we need one more match winner in January if possible.  It's clear that BR already understands this (tried to get William but failed).
4. I don't know why but our fullbacks seemed hemmed in for most of the game.  They weren't able to give us the width we normally get.  This might have been down to Hull's tactics or just an off day.  I'm not sure which - maybe both?

All in all, it was just a horrible day in a game that we should be winning but we have to keep looking at the big picture.  I don't know about others but if you offered me the league position now that we are in and said we  could have that in May, I'd bite your hand off for it.  All the talk about a title challenge should stop.  Arsenal are way out in front and we just aren't there yet.  If we get one or two more world class players in January, then maybe, but I'd be ecstatic if we got 4th place.  Spurs and United are both going through slumps and are still not that far behind - I don't think it will last.  I'd like for us to have a cushion in February/March but at least, we are still in front of them.

[GrkStav]

Obviously the other major problem is the form of the fringe players - they are not doing enough to either step in when called upon, or push the first choice guys for their places. Allen, Moses, Sterling et al should be showing us why they should be in the team but instead they are playing far below their own levels let alone what is required for a top 4 team.

Some other posters and I have noted that there should be no nailed-on, week-in and week-out, starters in quite a few positions. I know we don't have that many matches this season (no Europe, out of the League Cup), and I know that BR made a big deal of his 'fairness' approach and about the importance of doing one's best in training but it's becoming a bit too obvious (probably much more so for the likes of me who's inclined thus) that our squad players do not maintain a high level of match-readiness by 'training hard'. It's not about chopping and changing, it's about non-youth players getting a game every so often to maintain their match-sharpness and for all the players to be 'on the same page' against real, competitive opposition.