Author Topic: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup  (Read 10809 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2013, 01:13:32 pm »
Interesting that, mate, because from memory the only individual who ever got blamed for us conceeding when "zonal" was Benitez. In fact, he wasn't so much blamed as lampooned.

In the media, yes. It doesn't change the fact that there are individual responsibilities in both systems.

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I get what you're saying - ultimately you still have to do your job and attack a ball. 

My issue is that, with a strict man to man system, I think it is easier to score cheaply from a corner.


A cheap corner is easy to score in either system. It always comes down to an individual not doing their job. In zonal, if someone doesn't attack the ball coming in and leaves it to the man in the next zone, then that becomes a free ball to attack for the opposition. So neither system in itself offers any concrete advantages, it all comes down to players doing their jobs decisively.

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Enrique was flat footed, granted, but given he was starting goal side, and Hernadez came forwards and out, and given Hernandez presumably knew where the corner was supposed to be going, where Enrique was reacting to Hernandez, is it not inevitable that Enrique is second to that ball?


it's not inevitable at all, but it's also not about being first to the ball. Hernandez scored not only because he got free, but because he had no pressure on him when he turned his hips out to direct the ball. If Enrique follows him - even half a yard behind - then Hernandez doesn't have that space to change his body shape, and maybe he tries something else, or maybe the ball deflects off Enrique and out. The point is, without Enrique being there, or anywhere near, Hernandez has all the time in the world to decide his options.



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If so, United have emptied out the most dangerous area, dropped a ball in there and had a good finisher beat his man there. Blame Enrique, fine, but for me there are areas that merit defending from a corner even if there is no player there.

The problem is that if you fill those areas, it means players are unmarked and can make free runs, and you are relying on your players being strong enough to withstand a run on them. So ultimately, if an attacker runs into one of the spaces (because they still exist in zonal defending) and gets a header unchallenged and scores, then we're still having the conversation about players getting free in the area. So then the conversation inevitably turns into "So can we not have a mixed system?", which is feasible, but still presents the same problems in both systems. So it's not correct to assume that the goal would have been defended better with a zonal system. Players still get free. The game ultimately comes down to players being effective in their 1v1 match-ups, at and away from the ball, and whether it was zonal or man-marking, the point isn't that Enrique wasn't able to keep up with his man - he didn't even try to in the first place.

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You obviously study the game intently - do you not think we leave very inviting spaces from set plays?

I don't worry about "inviting spaces". What worries me is the amount of ball watching that goes on when we defend set-pieces, and the lack of tracking of runs. If we fixed those two things, we wouldn't be talking about giving away easy goals on corners. Ball-watching and lack of marking happen in both defensive systems. The game ultimately always comes down to 1v1. And defensively, we lose too many of those situations on set pieces
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Offline TomMorganLittle

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2013, 01:50:55 pm »
Arsed.

Sorry mate, just annoying when you have to read things twice before realising what it means or who you're talking about.
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Offline rafa4eva

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2013, 02:03:00 pm »
Having watched the game, my thoughts...

It was a weak team Man U put out
Man U looked out of sorts, when they can't pass the ball to each other that's says a lot... And it wasn't down to us forcing mistakes either .... Not that I mind seeing the mancs struggling esp under moyes !
I didn't think we played much better ... I can see posters stating it was at old Trafford, but considering how poor the mancs were regards their team and general play just makes it hard to see positives as such

The fact we still lost says a lot as well.

However there is a larger concern which is us looking so flat after so few games and the start of the season ... Compared to when we were in the cl or Europe, I've seen us looking 2nd best after playing our 3rd games in 8 days.... I could understand the trouble we had maintaining intensity with the players we had available ... But now with just the league and local cup comps? I thought we were set up to start fast this season and manage our way through the 2nd half of the season, which I think mirrors our game plan ... I don't like it as it's one dimensional and we do not seem to have other options. Also if we ever get European commitments how will we manage that situation ...

At the same time I wasn't getting carried away with the 1st 3 games either, we still look too open for my liking and too end to end when I don't think we have the players yet to win a "we will score more than you " game plan consistently .... we finished where we did last season for many reasons and as much as people may think we should challenge for 1st or 4th, we need to see if we can make small steps of improvement

Suarez is a force of nature, looked short of being match ready but it does seem we are reliant on coutinhio for making us play well, Having Suarez back will help us have more threat even if that is just down to Suarez being Suarez.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 02:06:20 pm by rafa4eva »

Offline Red number seven

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2013, 03:07:50 pm »
The problem is that if you fill those areas, it means players are unmarked and can make free runs, and you are relying on your players being strong enough to withstand a run on them. So ultimately, if an attacker runs into one of the spaces (because they still exist in zonal defending) and gets a header unchallenged and scores, then we're still having the conversation about players getting free in the area. So then the conversation inevitably turns into "So can we not have a mixed system?", which is feasible, but still presents the same problems in both systems. So it's not correct to assume that the goal would have been defended better with a zonal system. Players still get free. The game ultimately comes down to players being effective in their 1v1 match-ups, at and away from the ball, and whether it was zonal or man-marking, the point isn't that Enrique wasn't able to keep up with his man - he didn't even try to in the first place.
To score a goal in either system you generally have to have a ball in enough space to get definitive contact - depending on the size, aggression and heading ability of the attackers the required space will vary, though.
With purely zonal systems the corner has to be much, much better to find the much, much smaller spaces -that is the advantage of it. However, it is, granted, easier to get a man running and not well tracked if you utilise all your best headers of a ball marking 6 zones.

For me the mixed system of defending some critical areas as "zones" (Front screen, front half of 6 yard box as a minimum as these are - in my view - the easiest places to get a good ball into and score from it) whilst marking and tracking the players you have most concern about from the corner is an ideal compromise. The Hernandez goal was scored in a lot of space, and, yes, pressure on him from a less flat footed Enriquer might have made a difference, but Sako standing on the edge of the 6 yard box a yard in from the front post would almost certainly have stopped the goal.

We also need to try not to give corners away quite so cheaply as we have for the last 2 goals.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 07:48:50 am by Red number seven »
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Offline Beninger

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2013, 03:20:17 pm »
It was a weak team Man U put out
8 of those players in the "weak" team he put out against us, are starting in the league against West Brom right now.  Pretty sure they're using their squad, just like they did against us.  Hardly reserves.
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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2013, 03:29:12 pm »
How the fuck did these beat us?
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Offline rafa4eva

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2013, 04:46:16 pm »
8 of those players in the "weak" team he put out against us, are starting in the league against West Brom right now.  Pretty sure they're using their squad, just like they did against us.  Hardly reserves.

I'm not suggesting they put out 12 years old as a stick to beat us with, I'm saying I think moyes put out a weaker side on purpose, using his squad I agree, think we put out as strong a team as we could barring injuries...

The fact he's put out a similar side in the league is strange, but then again maybe he hopes he gets something against west brom and plays his a side in the cl? I'm just glad that moyes has taken a side I thought would play on auto pilot with or without a manager for at least a season and managed to find a way to make them splutter ... Well done David, love rawk.

Offline Macedonian Red Reborn

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Re: Round Table Manchester Utd 1-0 LFC. League Cup
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2013, 11:48:34 pm »
How the fuck did these beat us?

They have scored. We didn't.
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