Author Topic: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play  (Read 33286 times)

Offline Vulmea

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2013, 05:07:15 pm »
PhaseofPlay: "it's about the ball"

Vulmea: "well, when you think about it, it's really about the air inside the ball, and the thread that holds the panels of the ball together..."

;D

i think you do me a diservice.........what type of ball are we talking aboutanyway?

that ball used in the WC in south africa well..........it was too round, so it was more about the shape of the ball............well that and the altitude...

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-5/Soccer-Ball.html

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

royhendo

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2013, 05:12:15 pm »
There is a full length Ajax v Gremero(spelling) on YouTube from 1995 if people want to check it out,  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdE8e1yM9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Brilliant! Might stay on the train past my stop to watch this - top man :)

royhendo

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2013, 05:13:39 pm »
i think you do me a diservice.........what type of ball are we talking aboutanyway?

that ball used in the WC in south africa well..........it was too round, so it was more about the shape of the ball............well that and the altitude...

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-5/Soccer-Ball.html


It's all good mate - "Dark isn't the opposite of light - it's the absence of light".

That's why it's always a good debate.

Offline DanA

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2013, 05:27:38 pm »

in your example what dicates that team A drop back and team B attack - is it time and space or the need for one team to defend a scoreline? what is 'driving' team A - their need to use space correctly or their need t obtain  a specific scoreline. I put it to you your honour that the former is merley a means to an end. What is driving the play is the scoreline.


I have to say I agree with this that time and space is not the only thing dictating tactics, movement and formation. I think you need to be more broad then that which is why I used the term advantage. I would have thought that time and space is merely one of many advantages. The scoreline, psychological factors, number of men on the pitch, structural weaknesses, player mismatches, player condition, the list is endless but if it's perceived that a team has a comparative advantage in a certain area and they then try to exploit it then you have to say that's what has dictated the tactics, movement and formation. And it's not always going to be space or time.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 05:30:32 pm by DanA »
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2013, 05:33:39 pm »
I think your posts are excellent. There are a lot of great posters with a lot of good things to say. You're right up there, for me. We won't always agree, but i definitely read everything you have to say.

 ditto

on control - because you have the ball where the opposition are happy for you to have it I dont think that means you have control I think thats part of the problem - it looks like control but in reality its not - you have the ball but if you aren't able to do anything with it the opposition are  controlling you - pressing works the same way - if - deny all of the options until its returned to the keeper or given away - were you in control of the ball and that passage of play or were the opposition?

the Mrs plays that trick on me all the time - or thinks she does it s a double bluff now - actually its probably a treble bluff and I'm still behind the plan  - so you think your doing what you want to do when in reality your just part of somebody else's plan

the same when the opposition are set for the counter - if they retreat and wait, are you in control or are they just controlling you - we've seen teams try to draw out opponents before in order to hit the counter - whether its the battle of Hastings or Chelsea/Inter in the CL it doesn't really matter - who is actually controlling play? the team moving forward with the ball or the team directing the other team were to move forward to?

Possession is a pretty obvious strategy - obvious strategies generally aint successful - when we talk about tactics success is more often about deception - you have to not only know yourself but the opposition and know when to attack to maximum effect only then are you genuinely in control
 
so keeping possession - is ok - but its what you do with the ball when you have it that really matters - possesion of the ball is a powerful advantage but it does not of itself give you control of the game just the appearance of it - we've got to think beyond that haven't we?



The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2013, 05:34:39 pm »
I have to say I agree with this that time and space is not the only thing dictating tactics, movement and formation. I think you need to be more broad then that which is why I used the term advantage. I would have thought that time and space is merely one of many advantages. The scoreline, psychological factors, number of men on the pitch, structural weaknesses, player mismatches, player condition, the list is endless but if it's perceived that a team has a comparative advantage in a certain area and they the try to exploit it then you have to say that's what has dictated the tactics, movement and formation. And it's not always going to be space or time.

Space and time, nonetheless, underpin what they are trying to do and how they are trying to do it. A few questions for everyone:

Why does the winger look to beat the fullback?

Why do players make checking runs to and away from the ball?

Why do defenders close the player on the ball down instead of letting him advance towards their goal?

Why don't teams defend corners with just 3 players and the GK, and push 7 players to the halfway line for the counter-attack?

Why did man-marking effectively end as a defensive system?

Why did Total Football work so well?

Why do players move into support positions for the man on the ball instead of letting him just dribble?

Why is there passing?
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2013, 05:38:09 pm »
It's all good mate - "Dark isn't the opposite of light - it's the absence of light".

That's why it's always a good debate.

 I should have put some smileys in I was laughing out loud when I was typing :)
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

John F. Kennedy/Shanklyboy.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2013, 05:44:42 pm »
ditto

on control - because you have the ball where the opposition are happy for you to have it I dont think that means you have control I think thats part of the problem - it looks like control but in reality its not - you have the ball but if you aren't able to do anything with it the opposition are  controlling you - pressing works the same way - if - deny all of the options until its returned to the keeper or given away - were you in control of the ball and that passage of play or were the opposition?

Just a quick point - good distinction. I was thinking more of "you are in control of your own destiny" and should have been more precise in how I was understanding what you are saying. You have a good point

the Mrs plays that trick on me all the time - or thinks she does it s a double bluff now - actually its probably a treble bluff and I'm still behind the plan  - so you think your doing what you want to do when in reality your just part of somebody else's plan

the same when the opposition are set for the counter - if they retreat and wait, are you in control or are they just controlling you - we've seen teams try to draw out opponents before in order to hit the counter - whether its the battle of Hastings or Chelsea/Inter in the CL it doesn't really matter - who is actually controlling play? the team moving forward with the ball or the team directing the other team were to move forward to?

Possession is a pretty obvious strategy - obvious strategies generally aint successful - when we talk about tactics success is more often about deception - you have to not only know yourself but the opposition and know when to attack to maximum effect only then are you genuinely in control
 
so keeping possession - is ok - but its what you do with the ball when you have it that really matters - possesion of the ball is a powerful advantage but it does not of itself give you control of the game just the appearance of it - we've got to think beyond that haven't we?

Yes. But it still points to space and time driving the game (or more precisely the tactics of the game). If a team drops deep and lets you have the ball, they are denying you forward space to play in. If they push forward to press, they are taking a calculated risk that they can win the ball before you can get free to play in behind them. So they are compressing the space around the attacker with the ball to decrease his vision and options, but leaving a big space behind them. This is some of what caught Ged out - once teams stopped playing the typical English all-out attacking game against Liverpool, and dropped into the space Owen and Heskey could do their damage, Liverpool found it hard to build attacks with movement, because their movement was largely in straight lines. So how a team manipulates space and time is essentially what their tactics are built on, and to an extent governs their formation and their method of attack. Usually, the team that manages the spaces better on attack and defence wins the game. Sometimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes the other team has an individual who plays exceptionally well, and the one or two times that the in-control team leave themselves exposed, they are made to pay. This, though, doesn't usually happen with a team that balances the spaces on defence and attack (something Rafa always talked about), so the result is sometimes stalemate. Overall though, while you're right that different parameters can be used to judge "control", that control is still denoted by creation and/or destruction of space.
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Offline DanA

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2013, 05:52:32 pm »
Space and time, nonetheless, underpin what they are trying to do and how they are trying to do it. A few questions for everyone:

Why does the winger look to beat the fullback?

Why do players make checking runs to and away from the ball?

Why do defenders close the player on the ball down instead of letting him advance towards their goal?

Why don't teams defend corners with just 3 players and the GK, and push 7 players to the halfway line for the counter-attack?

Why did man-marking effectively end as a defensive system?

Why did Total Football work so well?

Why do players move into support positions for the man on the ball instead of letting him just dribble?

Why is there passing?

I've known from the start what you are saying has to be correct as I am almost certain it's a concept you're well researched on and has stood up against greater football minds throwing nore than anything I could think up. I'm arguing more for my education than anything else. It's how I learn.

I can see that space and time is a good answer to all those questions and it's got me leaning more towards what you are saying but then I ask.


Why do Stoke pack the box for a long throw? Is it space or time?
How did Inter beat Barcelona despite conceding so much space/time?
If space and time was all that was important why do we have Andy Carroll successfully playing the game?
Was total football successful because it exploited space and time or because it transferred from one advantage to another more effectively.




 

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2013, 06:05:43 pm »
I've known from the start what you are saying has to be correct as I am almost certain it's a concept you're well researched on and has stood up against greater football minds throwing nore than anything I could think up. I'm arguing more for my education than anything else. It's how I learn.

I can see that space and time is a good answer to all those questions and it's got me leaning more towards what you are saying but then I ask.


Why do Stoke pack the box for a long throw? Is it space or time?

There's a glib and a real answer :D

The glib on is that because they're all 6 foot plus, the space they use is in the air :D

The real one is this - they don't score directly from the throw - it's the flick-on headed in. So if they put Crouch near-post, it draws players towards him to compete for the header, which creates space at the back post for the flick-on player. If the defending team then spread out to negate the back post space, then the receiver of the throw has space to control the ball and do something else with it. So it's about using space to cause indecision on the part of the defence.


How did Inter beat Barcelona despite conceding so much space/time?

They conceded space in the two thirds of the field that Barca couldn't hurt them. But Barca didn't have much space in the final third, where they could do damage. So Inter consolidated the space where most goals are scored from, and dared Barca to try and break through. Space isn't concrete, which is why it can be manipulated and changed on the field.

If space and time was all that was important why do we have Andy Carroll successfully playing the game?

Carroll, for all intents and purposes, creates space by checking into long balls to his head. The space he checks into drags a defender away from the central area. A runner will be moving into this space and will receive the flick-on and be in with a chance to shoot. Kevin Nolan did that job at Newcastle, but there was no-one doing it at Liverpool (especially as Suarez is more of a lateral-mobility player off the ball, rather than a vertically moving one).

Was total football successful because it exploited space and time or because it transferred from one advantage to another more effectively.

It was more successful because it exploited the predominant man-marking defence of the day. The right-back marked the left winger. When the left winger moved inside (or back to the ball), he created space behind him, because the right back would stick to the left winger and move with him. We see this movement as pretty standard these days, but in the late 60's/early 70's, this type of movement throughout a whole team was pretty revolutionary. It is also partly why zonal defence was developed, as players now stayed in their zones rather than following opposition players all over the field.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2013, 06:17:54 pm »
As far as I can see its Roy that has caused the problem here :)

After the OP you Have basically suggested that there is a debate to be had about the validity of POP's    " theory" big man. You know as well as I do that there isn't. PoP has very clearly and concisely laid out the principles of play, also he has clarified how they dictate everything else and with the time space red herring why they dictate everything else. There really isn't any debate to be had other than his subjective views on the individual styles that he sites.

It's a theoretical lesson rather than a debate up until now. As far as I can see anyway. No debate here.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2013, 06:25:25 pm »
I think there attacking football can be summed up under five principles:  Control (1), Pass (2), and Move (3) leading to Space (4) and Time (5).  it all begins with control because this allows the player more options to continue the attack on, which will in the majority of times involve a pass to a teammate, which is done for furtherance of time and space which is necessary for the ultimate objective, scoring.  Movement, both after the pass, and by players checking too and away from the ball, or moving into support positions rather than letting the player dribble is also important for 4&5 because it gives the player options to maintain possession (sustaining the attack) or it gives him more of 4&5 to perhaps get a shot or assist.  It also may prevent double teams by the defense which is designed to reduce time and space.  Movement also may draw the individual marker away from the player, by sheer distraction or wariness of the run being made.

This is why total football worked so well, because the constant passing and movement, all stemming from good close control, created distortions in the defense, increasing the time and space the dutch players had with the ball, naturally leading to goals.  It is possibly why man marking was replaced by zonal because of the need for the defense to restrict time and space by making sure areas of the pitch are guarded as much as possible (rather than having huge gaps appear because a CB decided to chase a #9 out wide).  It is also why defenders close down, because more time and space leads to shots or easier passes (to teammates in goal-scoring positions), leaking goals.  That of course is why teams pack the box for corners and free kicks, to restrict the movement of the opposition by sheer bodies, and the amount of space the opponent can attack.

As far as attacking play, Control should still be number one before pass and move, as it provides more options for the pass...as well as the dribble.  It was because of his lack of it, IMO, why Rodgers within days of coming her let Dirk Kuyt leave.


Look.control.look.pass.move. I spent a long time dwelling on this sequence until I grasped support. On its own even if you add control "pass and move" is meaningless unless you are following the sound principles of play.

The principles of play aren't up for debate though and they are all relative to the notion of controlling space and there for creating time in order to make better team tactical decisions.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2013, 06:38:15 pm »
It's almost like PoP does the hard thinking for me at the moment. Fucking excellent thread this , when is the next one in the series boys? Keep spoon feeding me please.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2013, 06:39:51 pm »
It's almost like PoP does the hard thinking for me at the moment. Fucking excellent thread this , when is the next one in the series boys? Keep spoon feeding me please.

Sent you a PM
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2013, 07:44:40 pm »
Just a random thought also. You don't have to be slavishly following the principles of play, in order to play football that displays good principles of play. Am I right here?

Who was first responsible for listing them? I assume somebody came up with them from watching how good teams went about their work. Pass and move was surely just a local expression of the principle of support before it was a principle ?

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2013, 07:48:06 pm »
Just a random thought also. You don't have to be slavishly following the principles of play, in order to play football that displays good principles of play. Am I right here?

Who was first responsible for listing them? I assume somebody came up with them from watching how good teams went about their work. Pass and move was surely just a local expression of the principle of support before it was a principle ?

A good team will display the principles of play regardless of whether they do it actively or not. It is almost common sense when you think about it, but not common practice.

Allen Wade was the first one to codify them, in the 1950's, although they existed in the game at least since the offside law was introduced. Different associations have different versions of them, but no coaching association operates without them as part of their curriculum.
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Offline locultom

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2013, 08:14:58 pm »
I have to say I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread as well as a number of other excellent threads recently. Rawk is in a purple patch at the moment.

I coach an U14 team at present. I took over in the summer after a season when they hadn't won a game and didn't really have any shape or system. I've focussed heavily on technique and awareness in training and have systematically and repeatedly 'moved' them round the pitch on a sunday; 'back four in line with me' 'opposite winger tucking-in' 'offer short for the keeper' etc... It's working, we are improving we are getting some good results or keeping to respectable score lines against the very strongest and well-established teams.

My question is what next? What do people think the next phase of development or focus of coaching should be. Do these principles outlined in this thread apply directly to this level of youth football. Do technique and awareness have the greatest impact on time and space?
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2013, 08:16:11 pm »
I should have put some smileys in I was laughing out loud when I was typing :)

Aye me too :)

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2013, 08:18:16 pm »
This may actually be a dunce of a question, but is good shape an expression of the good adherence to the principles?

Is it a symptom or a goal in itself?

Offline locultom

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2013, 08:21:53 pm »
This may actually be a dunce of a question, but is good shape an expression of the good adherence to the principles?

Is it a symptom or a goal in itself?

For me 'good shape' is adherence to the principles in the context of the position of the ball.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2013, 08:27:40 pm »
I have to say I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread as well as a number of other excellent threads recently. Rawk is in a purple patch at the moment.

I coach an U14 team at present. I took over in the summer after a season when they hadn't won a game and didn't really have any shape or system. I've focussed heavily on technique and awareness in training and have systematically and repeatedly 'moved' them round the pitch on a sunday; 'back four in line with me' 'opposite winger tucking-in' 'offer short for the keeper' etc... It's working, we are improving we are getting some good results or keeping to respectable score lines against the very strongest and well-established teams.

My question is what next? What do people think the next phase of development or focus of coaching should be. Do these principles outlined in this thread apply directly to this level of youth football. Do technique and awareness have the greatest impact on time and space?

They apply to all levels of football, in different ways depending on age and consequently emphasis. That's why the whole thread of philosophy of play through the club from the Academy and McParland to Borrell to Inglethorpe to Rodgers is important. Intelligent players, developed and grounded in the principles of play, with speed and skill, and a clear system of play for each team. It will eventually become an organic thing that needs only recruitment for key positions to build winning teams (GK, Striker, maybe Central Mid). But that's for a different thread, I think :)
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2013, 08:31:12 pm »
For me 'good shape' is adherence to the principles in the context of the position of the ball.

so in essence trying to coach a good shape is pointless in itself.

although i suppose it does offer good, support, width and depth?

Offline locultom

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2013, 08:45:30 pm »
so in essence trying to coach a good shape is pointless in itself.

although i suppose it does offer good, support, width and depth?

Personally coaching 'shape' without the context of the ball position or the situation is pointless. But you can coach 'shape' in the rigid sense for restarts, set pieces and the like but even these rely on a philosphy and interpretation of principles. Teams sticking rigidly to fixed ideas of shape are easy to outsmart.
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Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2013, 08:53:06 pm »
we are only u7. have found that coaching an arbitrary diamond shape, has stopped them bunching. Going forward though its got to be more about support, penetration and pressure and cover. and obviously "pass the fucking ball for the last time!!" :)


Offline locultom

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2013, 09:16:20 pm »
we are only u7. have found that coaching an arbitrary diamond shape, has stopped them bunching. Going forward though its got to be more about support, penetration and pressure and cover. and obviously "pass the fucking ball for the last time!!" :)



Ha....yeah I've coached younger ones but the U14s have the most disparities due to adolescence that some weeks it can be a team of semi-bearded giants against baby faced criers! Principles of play get steamrolled and even my incessant shouting of 'play the way your facing, move into space, first pass you see, give it' is a waste of breath!

Would be good to have a thread for those coaching youth teams in another part of the site. Don't want to dilute this excellent thread.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2013, 09:19:42 pm »
Ha....yeah I've coached younger ones but the U14s have the most disparities due to adolescence that some weeks it can be a team of semi-bearded giants against baby faced criers! Principles of play get steamrolled and even my incessant shouting of 'play the way your facing, move into space, first pass you see, give it' is a waste of breath!

Would be good to have a thread for those coaching youth teams in another part of the site. Don't want to dilute this excellent thread.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=254391.0
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Offline locultom

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Offline The China Fox

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2013, 10:49:58 pm »
If space and time was all that was important why do we have Andy Carroll successfully playing the game?

Carroll, for all intents and purposes, creates space by checking into long balls to his head. The space he checks into drags a defender away from the central area. A runner will be moving into this space and will receive the flick-on and be in with a chance to shoot. Kevin Nolan did that job at Newcastle, but there was no-one doing it at Liverpool (especially as Suarez is more of a lateral-mobility player off the ball, rather than a vertically moving one).

Well our problem last season was really a lack of any vertical mobility players to score the goals; maybe Kenny would have looked to rectify that in the summer window had he stayed? I really like Andy Carroll, he's seems a good lad and watching him fucking dominate defenses at times was exhilarating but his pretty shite first touch was always going to count against him once Brendo came in.

Really loving this series by the way, and particularly phaseofplay's posts, I concur with the above opinions that there's a glut of good writing on RAWK at the moment and it's an absolute pleasure to be a lurker at this time. Looking forward to the next installments
This threads gone downhill fast.
It promised so much but failed dismally.

Offline Prof

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2013, 11:18:30 pm »
I've just got back from a few days away to find this thread.  Excellent work again PoP.

Just to throw a different spin on this, I thought I'd add something which relates but is often overlooked.

As has already been discussed, creating time on the ball (which is an extension to the concept of space, as it is possible not to have time when playing into space as it can disappear in the time it takes to get there, and time on the ball can be achieved in limited space by skillful payers), provides the player in possession with greater opportunity to make correct decisions and accurately execute the necessary skill(s).

Conversely, providing a player with lots of options slows down decision making.  Hick's Law states (in simple terms) the more choices someone has, the longer it takes to make a decision (it's a logarithmic function, not linear, so it plateaues at a set number of options).  Therefore, throwing players  on the field and saying 'go and play' is a fundamentally flawed idea.  By having predictable patterns (as PoP has so clearly illustrated), it helps players to make quicker decisions, as does the set of underlying principles that a team plays with.  Essentially, this reduces the number of choices the player has.

At the same time, defenders of the opposition can be overloaded with choices by the movement of our players.  Slowing down their decision making while speeding up our own leads to a greater speed of play from us and gives us the advantage.

A lot of this comes through experience.  The analogy I've used before is this... A novice chess player looks at a chess  board at the start of a game and can see that they have 20 possible moves.  An expert will allready know the one move they want to play, so can move quicker.  If the opponent (playing white) opens King Pawn to KP4, an expert will already have their response 'ready'.  The further into a chess game a player goes, the slower the move-time as there will often be less familiarity with the positions of the pieces.

The more we play this system, the more our players will recognise the attacking patterns, and the more complex they can become, and the more time the players will have as their decisions will be more quickly made.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:21:03 pm by Prof »

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2013, 11:54:31 pm »
I've just got back from a few days away to find this thread.  Excellent work again PoP.

Just to throw a different spin on this, I thought I'd add something which relates but is often overlooked.

As has already been discussed, creating time on the ball (which is an extension to the concept of space, as it is possible not to have time when playing into space as it can disappear in the time it takes to get there, and time on the ball can be achieved in limited space by skillful payers), provides the player in possession with greater opportunity to make correct decisions and accurately execute the necessary skill(s).

Conversely, providing a player with lots of options slows down decision making.  Hick's Law states (in simple terms) the more choices someone has, the longer it takes to make a decision (it's a logarithmic function, not linear, so it plateaues at a set number of options).  Therefore, throwing players  on the field and saying 'go and play' is a fundamentally flawed idea.  By having predictable patterns (as PoP has so clearly illustrated), it helps players to make quicker decisions, as does the set of underlying principles that a team plays with.  Essentially, this reduces the number of choices the player has.

At the same time, defenders of the opposition can be overloaded with choices by the movement of our players.  Slowing down their decision making while speeding up our own leads to a greater speed of play from us and gives us the advantage.

A lot of this comes through experience.  The analogy I've used before is this... A novice chess player looks at a chess  board at the start of a game and can see that they have 20 possible moves.  An expert will allready know the one move they want to play, so can move quicker.  If the opponent (playing white) opens King Pawn to KP4, an expert will already have their response 'ready'.  The further into a chess game a player goes, the slower the move-time as there will often be less familiarity with the positions of the pieces.

The more we play this system, the more our players will recognise the attacking patterns, and the more complex they can become, and the more time the players will have as their decisions will be more quickly made.

Absolutely brilliant post, and very, very correct. It also explains something I'll go into on another thread later, about positioning and mobility. Ajax under Van Gaal are a brilliant case in point, where players had to concern themselves more with support positions within the shape more than moving around the field. Rafa had some of that too. Usually, in these situations, one or two players at most might have some licence to roam, but because it is a minimal number of players, there is a minimal amount of noise for the rest of the team - a more tactical version of artists and hod-carriers. This is why the principles that Rodgers works on day in, day out at Melwood are known by the players, but will take some time to automate - they know what's needed of them, but they need to learn to trust the ideas and submit to them, almost. There is an element of lack of freedom to this approach, but it also serves to help them to play better football and eventually win more trophies consistently. I think a key thing for Liverpool right now is the team spirit that shines through the team. I think the players know what's going on, they know it's the best path, and they are committed to it, even when results don't go their way. They will come out of it with a better understanding of the spatial relationships on the field and how they can be changed. To repeat a Dutch phrase, without wanting to sound like I'm going overboard, but much like Rafa, Rodgers isn't just developing a team and players - he is developing future coaches too.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2013, 12:06:47 am »
This is why the principles that Rodgers works on day in, day out at Melwood are known by the players, but will take some time to automate - they know what's needed of them, but they need to learn to trust the ideas and submit to them, almost. There is an element of lack of freedom to this approach, but it also serves to help them to play better football and eventually win more trophies consistently. I think a key thing for Liverpool right now is the team spirit that shines through the team. I think the players know what's going on, they know it's the best path, and they are committed to it, even when results don't go their way. 

Do you think this was achieved by over-exaggerating the shape and depth of the philosophy in order to accentuate the clarity and speed up the long term learning. We seemed to adopt almost a caricature of the philosophy to emphasise the 'feel'. I've noticed a narrowing of the shape and a slight compacting of the length as the season has progressed. This has coincided with the players demonstrating a more automatic response to the game they are being asked to play. This is crystallised through the curve Gerrard's performances have taken. It's also pragmatically stopped us being so vulnerable on transition. Basically how much of this do you think was deliberate?
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2013, 12:27:06 am »
Do you think this was achieved by over-exaggerating the shape and depth of the philosophy in order to accentuate the clarity and speed up the long term learning. We seemed to adopt almost a caricature of the philosophy to emphasise the 'feel'. I've noticed a narrowing of the shape and a slight compacting of the length as the season has progressed. This has coincided with the players demonstrating a more automatic response to the game they are being asked to play. This is crystallised through the curve Gerrard's performances have taken. It's also pragmatically stopped us being so vulnerable on transition. Basically how much of this do you think was deliberate?

I honestly couldn't say, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. It could also be a simple concept I heard before called "closing the circle", from Aikido, I think - where beginners do big circular movements and gradually as they get better the circle gets smaller and smaller until it's almost imperceptible. It could be the case that the players are learning that they need less space than they thought to keep the ball? If you look at Barca, they play in very tight spaces, but they trust themselves and their touch to be able to do so. If this is the case, it actually narrows down a lot of potential incoming players, because it only takes 1 or 2 who have to adapt to spoil the whole pattern, so any new players are going to have to have excellent touch and ability to play small spaces so that the patterns can be moved forward rather than started again. This I think explains why Shanks and Bob would have players play in the reserves for a spell, so as not to disrupt the already existing patterns of play. Mourinho does this too with his famous 39 drills, that every new player had to go through at least once before he would consider them for the field. Which makes sense when you see what happened when he was foisted with two players who were almost guaranteed instant starts.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2013, 01:26:15 am »
My question is what next? What do people think the next phase of development or focus of coaching should be. Do these principles outlined in this thread apply directly to this level of youth football. Do technique and awareness have the greatest impact on time and space?

Psychology. It's why turnover is so important, when one team is prepared for the change in emphasis and the other isn't, and bare numbers becomes less relevant for a period until the other side can mentally adjust. Drill and trust in your teammates to do their bit as you concentrate on yours helps you to adjust mentally, while an absence of trust or instruction can lead to confusion, either losing your advantage or handing it to the opponent. If you can convince your opponent they're losing, they will more often than not.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2013, 01:34:40 am »
I honestly couldn't say, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. It could also be a simple concept I heard before called "closing the circle", from Aikido, I think - where beginners do big circular movements and gradually as they get better the circle gets smaller and smaller until it's almost imperceptible. It could be the case that the players are learning that they need less space than they thought to keep the ball? If you look at Barca, they play in very tight spaces, but they trust themselves and their touch to be able to do so. If this is the case, it actually narrows down a lot of potential incoming players, because it only takes 1 or 2 who have to adapt to spoil the whole pattern, so any new players are going to have to have excellent touch and ability to play small spaces so that the patterns can be moved forward rather than started again. This I think explains why Shanks and Bob would have players play in the reserves for a spell, so as not to disrupt the already existing patterns of play. Mourinho does this too with his famous 39 drills, that every new player had to go through at least once before he would consider them for the field. Which makes sense when you see what happened when he was foisted with two players who were almost guaranteed instant starts.

Much appreciate the explanations. The slow kids (me) need a bit more time to grasp things.


The Aikiedo concept is intriguing and with the level of detail Rodgers seems to go into it wouldn't surprise me. My initial feeling was that Rodgers is just adapting his ideas which he's only really tested at a lower level to make them work for us with the players he has. The concept of gradually making the space a player plays in smaller hadn't occurred to me.

You've got to say there is a prerequisite a player has to display since he's come in which among other things has been a good touch and ability to retain possession. Based on the principles you've outlined though to me it stands to reason Sturridge is as much about his ability to create space and time as he is operating with it. Yes he needs to be neat with the ball, have a good touch etc but it's his auxiliary attributes of raw pace and direct running that Rodgers is looking for to create space for others.

I wonder then is the next player we get in coming from an even smaller pool than Sturridge. It strikes me that the most advanced central midfielder is extremely important in Rodgers system to bring these concepts together. It needs to be a player that has the ability to almost play in a phone booth. That has the mobility to get into the space created, the touch to not squander it, the training to recognize correct decision to make and the skill to execute and that before you look at the workrate needed to do the defensive stuff. That's not a lot of candidates. It's ideally a Dutch or Spanish schooled player who due to FSG policy would be under 25 y/o. I'm down to a list of zero.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 01:36:28 am by DanA »
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2013, 03:38:04 am »
Long time reader, extremely infrequent poster here. At the risk of sounding ridiculously stupid and out of my depth with some of the discussion happening here I've got a couple of documents to post that may explain with diagrams what BR is trying to achieve this year, setting the basic foundations of the 'system' (very light use of that word), before we really see him take it somewhere in 2013/14.

Out here in Australia at the moment, we have recently developed a National Curriculum for ALL junior players in the nation to follow, with the aim of producing players that fit into the national team to be competitive on a world stage, ala Spain, Netherlands, France etc. Optimistic? Extremely, yes. But hey, why not shoot for the stars.

Anyway, back to the original point, the way I see implementing particular phases and patterns of play this year has drawn direct links with what us coaches in Aus are trying to achieve. Without saying anymore, I'll post the links and hopefully somebody may be able to make sense of where I'm headed with it to add to your already brilliant discussion.

www.sportingpulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=2217248




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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2013, 11:37:13 am »
Absolutely brilliant post, and very, very correct.

Thanks  8)

Just to expand a little further... watch this video.  It demonstrates how difficult observation can be...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ahg6qcgoay4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Ahg6qcgoay4</a>

I'll add an explanation later when I have a bit more time  :wave
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 02:18:33 pm by Prof »

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2013, 01:41:26 pm »
ditto

on control - because you have the ball where the opposition are happy for you to have it I dont think that means you have control I think thats part of the problem - it looks like control but in reality its not - you have the ball but if you aren't able to do anything with it the opposition are  controlling you - pressing works the same way - if - deny all of the options until its returned to the keeper or given away - were you in control of the ball and that passage of play or were the opposition?

the Mrs plays that trick on me all the time - or thinks she does it s a double bluff now - actually its probably a treble bluff and I'm still behind the plan  - so you think your doing what you want to do when in reality your just part of somebody else's plan

the same when the opposition are set for the counter - if they retreat and wait, are you in control or are they just controlling you - we've seen teams try to draw out opponents before in order to hit the counter - whether its the battle of Hastings or Chelsea/Inter in the CL it doesn't really matter - who is actually controlling play? the team moving forward with the ball or the team directing the other team were to move forward to?

Possession is a pretty obvious strategy - obvious strategies generally aint successful - when we talk about tactics success is more often about deception - you have to not only know yourself but the opposition and know when to attack to maximum effect only then are you genuinely in control
 
so keeping possession - is ok - but its what you do with the ball when you have it that really matters - possesion of the ball is a powerful advantage but it does not of itself give you control of the game just the appearance of it - we've got to think beyond that haven't we?


I'm not trying to be pedantic mate, but nobody's actually offering up just... Possession... As a tactic are they? Surely? As a strategy on its own it would indeed be shite.

I personally think you're nearly there on the control point. I'd add the following however: in the sense that if you're doing exactly what the missus/the opposition wants you to... then you either ARE or ARE NOT in control depending on the score. If at the end of the evening you can look back and say "I got laid" you were indeed in control.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2013, 02:53:22 pm »
Thanks  8)

Just to expand a little further... watch this video.  It demonstrates how difficult observation can be...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ahg6qcgoay4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Ahg6qcgoay4</a>



I'll add an explanation later when I have a bit more time  :wave

Quality. I read about this in a book "thinking fas and slow" hadn't actually seen it in the flesh as it were. Interesting, kind of new it was coming.

Great book. I suppose relating this type of thing to Liverpool is that our players are using system two for the new style at the moment. Only repetition will get it into system one to make our patterns of play instinctive and therefor fluid. I guess that's why we have sTruggled to put the possession and the pressing together thus far, as that video shows its very hard to do two things at once. The good news as far as I could see is that it clicked against Sunderland

Good stuff prof.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2013, 02:57:19 pm »
Much appreciate the explanations. The slow kids (me) need a bit more time to grasp things.


The Aikiedo concept is intriguing and with the level of detail Rodgers seems to go into it wouldn't surprise me. My initial feeling was that Rodgers is just adapting his ideas which he's only really tested at a lower level to make them work for us with the players he has. The concept of gradually making the space a player plays in smaller hadn't occurred to me.

You've got to say there is a prerequisite a player has to display since he's come in which among other things has been a good touch and ability to retain possession. Based on the principles you've outlined though to me it stands to reason Sturridge is as much about his ability to create space and time as he is operating with it. Yes he needs to be neat with the ball, have a good touch etc but it's his auxiliary attributes of raw pace and direct running that Rodgers is looking for to create space for others.

I wonder then is the next player we get in coming from an even smaller pool than Sturridge. It strikes me that the most advanced central midfielder is extremely important in Rodgers system to bring these concepts together. It needs to be a player that has the ability to almost play in a phone booth. That has the mobility to get into the space created, the touch to not squander it, the training to recognize correct decision to make and the skill to execute and that before you look at the workrate needed to do the defensive stuff. That's not a lot of candidates. It's ideally a Dutch or Spanish schooled player who due to FSG policy would be under 25 y/o. I'm down to a list of zero.

Erikson at Ajax ticks the boxes. Not so sure about the work rate.

But maybe we are better off long term growing one of these types.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2013, 03:03:30 pm »
Thanks for the link on that polly. Good resource that.

So much material coming from this thread, very exciting this.