Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)

[tubby]

Couldn't disagree more.  We already have players with dribbling ability in Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, and Mane.  What we're missing at the moment, and what has changed from earlier in the season, is movement off the ball and midfielders running past our front 3. 

Yup.  I'd like to see Henderson mix things up a bit more.  Break beyond the players ahead of him more often, give the defence something else to worry about.  His contribution in the final third is good, that cross to Sturridge was perfect, and with two other central midfielders in the team, one can drop in to cover if needed.

At the moment we're just too rigid, there's very little switching of positions.

The problem we have against parked buses is that we don't have the guile to play through them like the Spanish national team would do, and we can't whip crosses in because we've got no one who offers a threat similar to Costa does for Chelsea.  Instead we just pass it around and then chuck a few crosses in now and then.  All so pedestrian and predictable, there needs to be more depth to our attack.

[bobadicious]

Can someone with much more tactical acumen please explain this to me.

Common football theory would say that a team that has most possession often ends up tiring the opposition out as the opposition ends up having to run more to close down passing avenues etc. However after almost every Liverpool game you get the stat whereby LFC have dominated possession BUT have also covered much more kms than the opposition as well. Why is this? Is the common theory of more possession = less running bunk? Is it something to do with our pressing?  I remember Klopp being quizzed on the pressing and he said that with gegen pressing you actually have to run less as you would win the ball high up the pitch and avoid long runs back to our box.  Is the high possession coupled with a high km covered stat an indication of poor pressing and too much long runs tracking counter attacks back to our box? Dunno, im probably talking nonsense.

Also i thought the whole preseason and the new fitness guy were to keep our players stamina high. At the minute we look fatigued and its only January. Has something been miscalculated? Is it some sort of periodisation (is that right word?) so we look tired now but will peak in the last couple of months?

Not sure any of that ramble is coherent but hopefully someone might know what im getting at.

[SerbianScouser]

We already have players with dribbling ability in Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, and Mane. 

I was referring specifically to dribbling ability from wide areas cutting inside and running at people. Our wide-forwards Phil and Mane are operating in half-spaces making our front 3 narrow (which is something Carra pointed out on MNF on couple of occasions) which worked really well for us this season but they're not dribbling specialists.

We now have 3 no.9s and I'm sure we'll want to beef up our wide-forward options in the summer and one of those imo should be a specialist dribbler in wide areas a la Robben because it's one of the most effective ways to combat low-block teams.

[killer-heels]

Can someone with much more tactical acumen please explain this to me.

Common football theory would say that a team that has most possession often ends up tiring the opposition out as the opposition ends up having to run more to close down passing avenues etc. However after almost every Liverpool game you get the stat whereby LFC have dominated possession BUT have also covered much more kms than the opposition as well. Why is this? Is the common theory of more possession = less running bunk? Is it something to do with our pressing?  I remember Klopp being quizzed on the pressing and he said that with gegen pressing you actually have to run less as you would win the ball high up the pitch and avoid long runs back to our box.  Is the high possession coupled with a high km covered stat an indication of poor pressing and too much long runs tracking counter attacks back to our box? Dunno, im probably talking nonsense.

Also i thought the whole preseason and the new fitness guy were to keep our players stamina high. At the minute we look fatigued and its only January. Has something been miscalculated? Is it some sort of periodisation (is that right word?) so we look tired now but will peak in the last couple of months?

Not sure any of that ramble is coherent but hopefully someone might know what im getting at.

We are probably covering more ground because you would imagine we are doing more sprints, more movement to try to get space and spending more time attacking, so going front to back. Saints counter attacked but they sat very deep so plenty of their movement was shifting side to side.

We may look fatigued but how do you know we are actually fatigued? Players out of form and confidence look fatigued as well, and operate with hunched shoulders, poor touches etc. Take Firming. People were obsessed with him needing a rest. The last 2 games, all is well again.

Also you can have a period in a season where fitness can drop. Who keeps a high level for the whole season?

[Anfield89]

Anyone know how many points we had this time last season?

[killer-heels]

Anyone know how many points we had this time last season?

Think it was like 14 points less.

[SerbianScouser]

Anyone know how many points we had this time last season?

14 points more and 26 goals scored more compared to this time last season. You'd never have guessed such progress by the current climate on the forum though.

[bodhisattva]

It's interesting how things have changed in such a relatively short time, i think it is a combination of a little tiredness but much more importantly injuries
to individuals has not only meant we've missed some really key players but we've moved other players to accommodate changes in the team.

1. I think we have to play Firmino centrally all the time, remember when someone called him the piston of our engine? well moving him to accommodate the loss of Mane
and get Sturridge / Origi has had a detrimental effect on the team as a whole.

2. Lallana has to play midfield, it was a great decision from Klopp to move him there and it helps link the midfield and attack perfectly. Lallana's skillset is much better suited
to that sort of role and it was showing in his output.

As Klopp and the other coaches have spoken about many times, there are key players in the team that act as triggers for things like the pressing and Lallana and Firmino are also mentioned as two of the key parts of that. Both those players have been moved and that has had a massive impact on the team.

 

[Keith Lard]

Mystifying this sudden slump, but i have great faith in the long term goals of this management team. Not worried. Part of the journey. Our job is to keep the faith and allow the team to keep building in the right manner. The consequences of jeapordising this (like the club did when Rafa left) is worse than you can imagine.

Any Liverpool supporter that's not 100% behind Klopp right now is a rat of the highest order.

Sorry don't mean to derail thread as I know it's about tactics. Just making a public statement for the masses As you were ...

[Suareznumber7]

Can someone with much more tactical acumen please explain this to me.

Common football theory would say that a team that has most possession often ends up tiring the opposition out as the opposition ends up having to run more to close down passing avenues etc. However after almost every Liverpool game you get the stat whereby LFC have dominated possession BUT have also covered much more kms than the opposition as well. Why is this? Is the common theory of more possession = less running bunk? Is it something to do with our pressing?  I remember Klopp being quizzed on the pressing and he said that with gegen pressing you actually have to run less as you would win the ball high up the pitch and avoid long runs back to our box.  Is the high possession coupled with a high km covered stat an indication of poor pressing and too much long runs tracking counter attacks back to our box? Dunno, im probably talking nonsense.

Also i thought the whole preseason and the new fitness guy were to keep our players stamina high. At the minute we look fatigued and its only January. Has something been miscalculated? Is it some sort of periodisation (is that right word?) so we look tired now but will peak in the last couple of months?

Not sure any of that ramble is coherent but hopefully someone might know what im getting at.

In my opinion, the reason that we don't tire other teams out as much as we could is because of the slow ball rotation.  It's not that difficult to defend 20 yards from your own goal if you only have to slowly jog side to side because the other team doesn't move the ball much.  Add to that our poor movement the past month or so and we're really not that hard to play against. 

When we look at why the team looks tired now I think we have to take into account the fact that this is Klopp's and his entire staff's first full season in England.  They are used to Germany where there is a winter break where teams are able to rest and refresh while in England it's the most demanding period of the season.  There used to be a poster her, "Phaseofplay", who used to worry about Klopp's periodisation and he always said that it was likely the team would "hit a wall" in January.  I'm sure that Klopp and his staff will learn a lot this year and will hopefully be able to tailor the pre-season so that we are able to maintain our fitness through the entire season including through the difficult January period. 

[jillcwhomever]

We are probably covering more ground because you would imagine we are doing more sprints, more movement to try to get space and spending more time attacking, so going front to back. Saints counter attacked but they sat very deep so plenty of their movement was shifting side to side.

We may look fatigued but how do you know we are actually fatigued? Players out of form and confidence look fatigued as well, and operate with hunched shoulders, poor touches etc. Take Firming. People were obsessed with him needing a rest. The last 2 games, all is well again.

Also you can have a period in a season where fitness can drop. Who keeps a high level for the whole season?

Also when you're in a spiral like this, your confidence is low it effects your tiredness more, both in mind and body. Every thing seems like more of an effort, and the more you struggle the tireder you feel. But once you break the cycle they will find a second wind, just like Roberto has. We just need a good win and we can turn it around.

[Suareznumber7]

I was referring specifically to dribbling ability from wide areas cutting inside and running at people. Our wide-forwards Phil and Mane are operating in half-spaces making our front 3 narrow (which is something Carra pointed out on MNF on couple of occasions) which worked really well for us this season but they're not dribbling specialists.

We now have 3 no.9s and I'm sure we'll want to beef up our wide-forward options in the summer and one of those imo should be a specialist dribbler in wide areas a la Robben because it's one of the most effective ways to combat low-block teams.

It's clear that it's a part of the system that Klopp has employed though.  And you've hit the nail on the head that our wide forwards play in half-spaces which leaves the space out wide for the fullbacks.  Mane and Coutinho sometimes receive the ball out wide (Mane more then Coutinho) but it's very rare.  It'll require a slight change in tactics if we were to employ someone in the wide forward a player similar to Robben. 

If you take into account Clyne not being great going forward, I would agree that we could use someone in that role but I'm not sure Klopp wants to play that way. 

[jillcwhomever]

Mystifying this sudden slump, but i have great faith in the long term goals of this management team. Not worried. Part of the journey. Our job is to keep the faith and allow the team to keep building in the right manner. The consequences of jeapordising this (like the club did when Rafa left) is worse than you can imagine.

Any Liverpool supporter that's not 100% behind Klopp right now is a rat of the highest order.

Sorry don't mean to derail thread as I know it's about tactics. Just making a public statement for the masses As you were ...

Don't apologise I enjoy your posts. Full of positivity there isn't enough of that around. We will turn it around.

[Keith Lard]

Don't apologise I enjoy your posts. Full of positivity there isn't enough of that around. We will turn it around.

Cheers mate and i agree, we will definitely turn it around.

[gatcliffe]

It's clear that it's a part of the system that Klopp has employed though.  And you've hit the nail on the head that our wide forwards play in half-spaces which leaves the space out wide for the fullbacks.  Mane and Coutinho sometimes receive the ball out wide (Mane more then Coutinho) but it's very rare.  It'll require a slight change in tactics if we were to employ someone in the wide forward a player similar to Robben. 

If you take into account Clyne not being great going forward, I would agree that we could use someone in that role but I'm not sure Klopp wants to play that way. 

I have been watching the shape we deploy closely the last couple games, one thing I have noticed is that of late we rarely play a final pass into the box it is played out wide hence the number of crosses coming in.This is obviously similar to what you are saying, however we are also playing too much football in the area between the centre circle and the D. The ball hangs in that area for far too long it needs to played off quicker I am no JK but that is how I see it.

[Suareznumber7]

I have been watching the shape we deploy closely the last couple games, one thing I have noticed is that of late we rarely play a final pass into the box it is played out wide hence the number of crosses coming in.This is obviously similar to what you are saying, however we are also playing too much football in the area between the centre circle and the D. The ball hangs in that area for far too long it needs to played off quicker I am no JK but that is how I see it.

I really think the reason for this is because of the lack of movement of the front 3 and the lack of forward penetrating runs by the two highest midfielders.  If you look back only a month ago we routinely had 5-6 players in the box.  Last night there was 1 maybe 2 players in the box at a time. 

[bodhisattva]

It's clear that it's a part of the system that Klopp has employed though.  And you've hit the nail on the head that our wide forwards play in half-spaces which leaves the space out wide for the fullbacks.  Mane and Coutinho sometimes receive the ball out wide (Mane more then Coutinho) but it's very rare.  It'll require a slight change in tactics if we were to employ someone in the wide forward a player similar to Robben. 

If you take into account Clyne not being great going forward, I would agree that we could use someone in that role but I'm not sure Klopp wants to play that way.

The full-back positions have been something i've been watching the last few weeks and I do think its part of the problem. Teams are giving us that space out wide so our fullbacks see a lot of the ball and have a good amount of space, Clyne is decent going forward and in theory Milner should be ideal in that position, but because he's a right footed player, playing left back he often checks inside and doesn't attack the space he has and get to the bye line and those crosses are much easier to defend. TAA seems to have really good quality in those wide positions, yesterday he delivered a couple of really good balls into dangerous areas, but I do think we're lacking the same on the left because we're not using a natural left footer out there and because we don't have a proper left winger that can get outside Milner.

If teams are going to give us that space we need to do more in those wide areas, one solution is to play Moreno LB and one of Milner, Clyne, TAA at right back in those games where teams give us that space, at least Moreno is a naturally left footed player and could attack the space. It also then potentially frees up Milner to play further forward where he has been very effective in the past.

[Keith Lard]

The full-back positions have been something i've been watching the last few weeks and I do think its part of the problem. Teams are giving us that space out wide so our fullbacks see a lot of the ball and have a good amount of space, Clyne is decent going forward and in theory Milner should be ideal in that position, but because he's a right footed player, playing left back he often checks inside and doesn't attack the space he has and get to the bye line and those crosses are much easier to defend. TAA seems to have really good quality in those wide positions, yesterday he delivered a couple of really good balls into dangerous areas, but I do think we're lacking the same on the left because we're not using a natural left footer out there and because we don't have a proper left winger that can get outside Milner.

If teams are going to give us that space we need to do more in those wide areas, one solution is to play Moreno LB and one of Milner, Clyne, TAA at right back in those games where teams give us that space, at least Moreno is a naturally left footed player and could attack the space. It also then potentially frees up Milner to play further forward where he has been very effective in the past.

Interesting. I'm no tactical genius, but I'll be intrigued over the coming weeks to see if Moreno gets some game time. I'd be chomping at the bit if I were him.

[gatcliffe]

Interesting. I'm no tactical genius, but I'll be intrigued over the coming weeks to see if Moreno gets some game time. I'd be chomping at the bit if I were him.

Actually feel sorry for him he deserves a chance.

[JJ Red]

The lack of natural width was very apparent last night. I understand why klopp mentioned looking for a winger not too long ago.

Milners been a bit of a revelation at lb but his limitations were there last night especially considering how narrow we were and how many men they had behind the ball.

I'm really surprised we didn't try harder for a natural left footed left wing.

I still think, although it sounds like shitty hindsight, that the midfield is imbalanced and flawed. I'm not sure Can is athletic or agile enough to be the player he seems to think he is. Personally I think he is on borrowed time. I would still prefer to see a natural destroyer in there although I realise klopp probably isn't looking that way. I did get a little excited when I saw the most recent link to Carvalho although realised that it was bullshit.

I think we still need a Gk, natural Lb, Cm, winger, and another forward.

[Anfield89]

14 points more and 26 goals scored more compared to this time last season. You'd never have guessed such progress by the current climate on the forum though.

Think it was like 14 points less.

Cheers 🍻

[CrasherKid79]

The lack of natural width was very apparent last night. I understand why klopp mentioned looking for a winger not too long ago.

Milners been a bit of a revelation at lb but his limitations were there last night especially considering how narrow we were and how many men they had behind the ball.

I'm really surprised we didn't try harder for a natural left footed left wing.

I still think, although it sounds like shitty hindsight, that the midfield is imbalanced and flawed. I'm not sure Can is athletic or agile enough to be the player he seems to think he is. Personally I think he is on borrowed time. I would still prefer to see a natural destroyer in there although I realise klopp probably isn't looking that way. I did get a little excited when I saw the most recent link to Carvalho although realised that it was bullshit.

I think we still need a Gk, natural Lb, Cm, winger, and another forward.

.... and a centre back. Lovren isn't good a good enough 1st choice long term.

[smicer07]

The lack of natural width was very apparent last night. I understand why klopp mentioned looking for a winger not too long ago.

Milners been a bit of a revelation at lb but his limitations were there last night especially considering how narrow we were and how many men they had behind the ball.

I'm really surprised we didn't try harder for a natural left footed left wing.

I still think, although it sounds like shitty hindsight, that the midfield is imbalanced and flawed. I'm not sure Can is athletic or agile enough to be the player he seems to think he is. Personally I think he is on borrowed time. I would still prefer to see a natural destroyer in there although I realise klopp probably isn't looking that way. I did get a little excited when I saw the most recent link to Carvalho although realised that it was bullshit.

I think we still need a Gk, natural Lb, Cm, winger, and another forward.

We don't need half a new team.

[JJ Red]

We don't need half a new team.

We need those options without question. Is it really up for debate that could do with a new Gk, a natural Lb to at least cover the 33 yr old Milner (considering how much trust he seems to have in Moreno).

The winger and lack thereof was definitely mentioned by klopp himself.

The midfield I grant you is probably just a personal thing but considering the decent sources reporting our pursuit of Dahoud its probably not a big stretch to suggest the position needs tinkering.

The forward suggestion is based on my belief that if we can flog Sturridge in the summer we will and he will need replaced.

[God's Left Peg]

Mystifying this sudden slump, but i have great faith in the long term goals of this management team. Not worried. Part of the journey. Our job is to keep the faith and allow the team to keep building in the right manner. The consequences of jeapordising this (like the club did when Rafa left) is worse than you can imagine.

Any Liverpool supporter that's not 100% behind Klopp right now is a rat of the highest order.

Sorry don't mean to derail thread as I know it's about tactics. Just making a public statement for the masses As you were ...

 

Same here. Klopp is everything I would want in a Liverpool manager. He will be a success if we stick by him; I have zero doubt.

This slump is going to end soon - you read it here first.

[God's Left Peg]

Interesting. I'm no tactical genius, but I'll be intrigued over the coming weeks to see if Moreno gets some game time. I'd be chomping at the bit if I were him.

In theory, yes, but his balls from wide were, from recollection, shit. LB is still a position we could improve on I think. If we did I would not be averse to seeing Milner accommodated elsewhere in the team. I like him; he is a machine. Maybe rotate him with Clyne at RB. I dunno, but a quality LB with a decent final ball on him would be invaluable for our system.

[Keith Lard]

Actually feel sorry for him he deserves a chance.

I actually don't think he does ... he should be chomping at the bit and doing everything he can to try and get in the team considering our poor form though. Personally I wouldn't have him at the back though - he makes me bloody nervous. For all his talents going forward, he makes so many rash mistakes defensively I can't see a pathway back for him long term unless he's showing management he's fundamentally improved defensively in training. Hoping against hope though as the boy has great talent going forward.

[bodhisattva]

One possible solution to playing Milner at left back is to have a naturally left footed attacking wide player ahead of him, but looking at our squad I think we only have
Wilson or Ojo that fit that criteria. We were using the cut back really effectively at the start of the season but to do that you have to get to the bye line and we're not doing
that enough.

[na fir dearg]

the reason we miss Mane is that he will take players on, that's one way to get around banks of 4, go past them, not easily done but I think our players have to be braver
Even if we lose the ball when trying to go past players this will create space as the opposing team will come out to try and counter - that is when the counter-pressing should kick in, I thought that's why we were so good in the early part of the season??

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Here in the states, talk radio are bashing James Milner....  They are going after Klopp for playing him "out of position".  I believe the douche is named Tom Rennie.   He was banging on about right footed crosses and the Yoshida' predictability play.  Combining this was the temerity to call out the transfer policy for a left back.   

While I think we all can see (and did worry about) our squad being a bit thin going into January with fixture pile up and Afcon, it feels like many in the media (non reds) and a few known reds supporters are taking their pound of flesh from Klopp.  This is not only vile but reeks of trying to destabilize Liverpool when we were just getting to the good parts --- hope etc...

So, I am having none of this shite.  No Moreno.   No Rennie.   No Manc trolls.   


I believe Klopp is the guy!  He fits!  He will make errors and our players will make errors.  I hope they are held accountable for them, and we learn together as a group.    Expectations at Liverpool are daunting.  We finally have a modern coach who knows what the fuck is going on in so many areas.

He asked us for our belief.   Well, I'm pissed about West Ham, Bournemouth, Swansea, and Southampton, but he asked us for our support when they need it --- not when we do.   

Everyone who is not a Liverpool supporter can toss off.....  I believe!

[RedKenWah]

The thing we have been missing is blistering pace. That's the only thing missing. Blistering pace is something you can't defend against, you can't park your double decker bus in front of and hold out for 90 mins.

For us we have dominated possession but it's been defendable. It's Ben easy for the opposition because it's all too slow.

[Robinred]

We need those options without question. Is it really up for debate that could do with a new Gk, a natural Lb to at least cover the 33 yr old Milner (considering how much trust he seems to have in Moreno).

The winger and lack thereof was definitely mentioned by klopp himself.

The midfield I grant you is probably just a personal thing but considering the decent sources reporting our pursuit of Dahoud its probably not a big stretch to suggest the position needs tinkering.

The forward suggestion is based on my belief that if we can flog Sturridge in the summer we will and he will need replaced.

James Milner just turned 31 this month.

[Suareznumber7]

One possible solution to playing Milner at left back is to have a naturally left footed attacking wide player ahead of him, but looking at our squad I think we only have
Wilson or Ojo that fit that criteria. We were using the cut back really effectively at the start of the season but to do that you have to get to the bye line and we're not doing
that enough.

As was posted earlier in the thread, our "wide forwards" play in half spaces.  They don't provide full width.  That comes from our fullbacks. 

[bodhisattva]

As was posted earlier in the thread, our "wide forwards" play in half spaces.  They don't provide full width.  That comes from our fullbacks.

right and when one of those fullbacks is cutting inside a lot because he's a right footed player on the left that does effect the amount of width we get on that side. I'm a big fan of Milner and was fully behind the move to fullback but I do think against teams that defend narrow and deep we need both fullbacks to stay wide and get to the bye line as much as possible when crossing the ball.

[Suareznumber7]

right and when one of those fullbacks is cutting inside a lot because he's a right footed player on the left that does effect the amount of width we get on that side. I'm a big fan of Milner and was fully behind the move to fullback but I do think against teams that defend narrow and deep we need both fullbacks to stay wide and get to the bye line as much as possible when crossing the ball.

Clyne is a right footed player, playing on the right, and if you watch him he rarely gets to the byline and is constantly cutting the ball inside and dribbling to the middle.  In fact, I'd say that Milner stays wider then Clyne does. 

[Je99ers]

AS OF THIS TIME, THERE WILL BE NO MORE EXCUSES FROM KLOPP.

[Redsnappa]

Tactics 

[Motty]

STOP SHOUTING YOU MOOB

[stockdam]

AS OF THIS TIME, THERE WILL BE NO MORE EXCUSES FROM KLOPP.

So what now?

[JackWard33]

AS OF THIS TIME, THERE WILL BE NO MORE EXCUSES FROM KLOPP.

terrific this.... really great contribution to the boards... you've moved the debate forward