Author Topic: A Level farce/General Education ranting  (Read 14128 times)

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2020, 10:48:12 am »
They receive payment in exchange for a service.

You could argue the same for all the charity shops out there who receive a payment in exchange for a product.

Offline filopastry

  • seldom posts but often delivers
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,756
  • Let me tell you a story.........
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2020, 10:51:23 am »
I thought this was a decent thread on Twitter (a rare thing) https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1293977343267151872 and on gut feeling I would say it feels right that the way the appeals process is/isn't working does feel like its the main problem here.

Offline lobsterboy

  • Sworn enemy of crayfishgirl. Likes to draw spunking cocks n balls at sunday school
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2020, 11:01:47 am »
Do you want to elaborate on that a bit? Think a statement that parents are finding ways to avoid tax through payment of schools fees is quite the accusation and deserves a bit of backing.

Schools on the whole are deemed charitable institutions - it isn't some little cabal scheming and scamming to get an exemption that others don't; rather it is convention.

For reference I've attached a copy of Range High School's (in Formby) accounts to show that they too are deemed a charity

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/meYM2eijGaLdfLeD6nvQ_gmt1hvllEr2dM0AhtArFvA/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3CWA6A66C%2F20200814%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200814T091909Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEMb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIQDsLfoNA0tvYkSLETrXE9Xf5UcqUZmWbHq%2B4fOKyHDmEwIgN9y24T23YFnaNQGLi%2BRbw%2BuZgcO4I%2BgXhE1IVV7ykrcqvQMIn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARACGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDMzgdOOicX4uBYAWWCqRA1tp95jE5aWCfWwtP3koj%2F9vkm6X1n0CrNaWpimOmJRp8Uc2T3%2F6v4pY5PzJ8nRst1bAitSCqv4ug86%2FWGcw4A%2FvFQTiLn%2BZ5Sw%2B9qT8%2FRaCzMPC53ALJgGbZvnUcrtJ7ansv9lwh0076QjnBtEvLmN%2Ble7%2FWAAJbiYPQWLfwjmaNlAEWoQA6%2FJ0CPM%2FBhxSX6yK%2Bww2sJs%2FKYQwr4btx5mY08cxFg8VusTqXive5K6l9QQzpJO25bb6%2FcDIdBRY7akQume64vMEh11Qh3HKEYM%2FR%2B0AinwChB1Q5FawCGy7sYnYUs7MF467Ko8gcI1HTUlaFowvlnBw5LtWnBjGrprfh18qE1ABobp4iXFBHSjOURcbrMRv%2Fz5VY5%2FtYHvW9AgAobnl3Zs5pYvc89%2BVYKzfuntacYmm4yO4brdagEGnwgyBDC7pQtVBZAg8DteUemetxZoTfPIW7MK1beDcZK7l%2FjHuRAkjFXeROlxxJZOWhJOnekvlLRbIRqOSxf14nSXGo6hu8jRzt%2BQIsbOCZ6VeMMPA2PkFOusBIN2zvh7LiWrrcdeeWX0Iy9c4sD20LtOvTg3QBQDQwN81HMHoAsLZWhqlaH1AyhTt4269ekvOmOq0QULx4h75pLETZBkoYH26O%2BaZ7UAb4TTkd1rwlrtpIs1qHIDFuXg4DQTFCtwDz00ufj%2BlCgRHDnAwUM0qzXjl8fd5m8%2F0%2BSvNPVi3d%2FmwJ2UpQgo8lz2pyGktRHBmEnC3z6AStKtimHnJ7K38PbaeIuTXEbliU5xPo7tUSoYh9NZTJPxKB1LQd9VrDMZMQSd%2Fgoe9bhdEXmxxcDOLbw2rsj1zSc8z%2F1a4NwFDeRoaTnvrGw%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=7cecd58306ee832deaa27b2edbf2ae25310ce14a815c5bc830c754910adfeaf7

(might need someone savvier than me to tidy that link up).

These institutions, whether you like it or not, meet the definitions of a charity per the Charities Commission and have to continue to prove it. I'm not going to disagree with your comment that state schools classes are too large and that many (not all) are underfunded but there is a huge misconception over what constitutes an independent school and the sort of people who go - not everywhere is an Eton or Harrow for example.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2558653/The-5-sneaky-perfectly-legal-ways-Britains-richest-parents-cut-tax-bill-private-school-fees.html

Offline Elmo!

  • Spolier alret!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,335
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2020, 11:02:32 am »
Fee paying schools in Scotland were due to lose their charitable relief on business rates in September but that has been delayed to April next year due to Covid.

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2020, 11:05:43 am »
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2558653/The-5-sneaky-perfectly-legal-ways-Britains-richest-parents-cut-tax-bill-private-school-fees.html


From that article...

"They are under such financial pressure that as many as 37 per cent of parents have considered taking their children out of private school because of the costs, a survey from Lloyds Bank Private Banking revealed today.

Fifty-seven per cent are concerned they may not be able to afford the fees in the future, while 38 per cent have struggled to meet payment deadlines."

That tells me a huge amount of families sending their kid(s) to private school do so at a sacrifice of other spending and aren't just mega rich families looking for a tax break. Taking away charity status, and inevitably pushing prices up, will see these families totally unable to send their kids to a fee paying school and leave them solely for the mega rich.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:12:38 am by Craig 🤔 »

Offline Elmo!

  • Spolier alret!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,335
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2020, 11:09:52 am »
From that article...

"They are under such financial pressure that as many as 37 per cent of parents have considered taking their children out of private school because of the costs, a survey from Lloyds Bank Private Banking revealed today.

Fifty-seven per cent are concerned they may not be able to afford the fees in the future, while 38 per cent have struggled to meet payment deadlines."

That tells me a huge amount of families sending their kid(s) to private school do so at a sacrifice of other spending and aren't just mega rich families looking for a tax break. Taking away charity status, and inevitably pushing prices up, will see these families totally unable to send their kids to a fee paying school and leave them solely for the mega rich.

Did you quote the wrong person?

Anyway that is certainly the case in Edinburgh which is very unusual. Something like 25% of pupils in Edinburgh go to private school, it has a weird tradition of it, and a lot of them do come from middle class not super rich backgrounds.

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2020, 11:12:25 am »
Did you quote the wrong person?

Anyway that is certainly the case in Edinburgh which is very unusual. Something like 25% of pupils in Edinburgh go to private school, it has a weird tradition of it, and a lot of them do come from middle class not super rich backgrounds.

Yeah I did mate, sorry I'm new  ;D

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2020, 11:17:27 am »
From that article...

"They are under such financial pressure that as many as 37 per cent of parents have considered taking their children out of private school because of the costs, a survey from Lloyds Bank Private Banking revealed today.

Fifty-seven per cent are concerned they may not be able to afford the fees in the future, while 38 per cent have struggled to meet payment deadlines."

That tells me a huge amount of families sending their kid(s) to private school do so at a sacrifice of other spending and aren't just mega rich families looking for a tax break. Taking away charity status, and inevitably pushing prices up, will see these families totally unable to send their kids to a fee paying school and leave them solely for the mega rich.

I think the use of private schools by not-particularly-rich families provides a great shield for private schools

Let's be clear, private schools are not just a source of education; for decades they have provided a ready-made network for alumni to utilise, which allows them access to jobs and careers that are at best far more difficult to crack for non-private school pupils.

The entire private school system perpetuates privilege.

I guess if private schools became the sole preserve of the very wealthy, there would be less public opposition when we move to close them completely  ;)
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline TSC

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,343
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2020, 11:18:48 am »
Listening to an education expert on R5L, and reading this very informative Twitter thread - https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1294170607643430912?s=19 - has given me a btter understanding of how shit this system is.

Basically, allocated grades assessed by teachers/schools are largely irrelevant. It's the pupil rankings by the teachers/schools that are used, with algorithms based heavily on previous school performance applied to decide the gradings for all pupils in a particular school.

Fully expect this blame shifting government to (again) point fingers at teachers for ‘inflating’ predicted grades.  I’m basing that expectation on current government’s typical strategy when shit hits the fan.

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2020, 11:20:27 am »
I think the use of private schools by not-particularly-rich families provides a great shield for private schools

Let's be clear, private schools are not just a source of education; for decades they have provided a ready-made network for alumni to utilise, which allows them access to jobs and careers that are at best far more difficult to crack for non-private school pupils.

The entire private school system perpetuates privilege.

I guess if private schools became the sole preserve of the very wealthy, there would be less public opposition when we move to close them completely  ;)

I don't see them being closed in anywhere near the short to medium term though, if at all, and increasing the barriers to entry by pushing prices right up is ultimately only going to increase the problems with them as only the mega rich take advantage.

Offline ianburns252

  • RAWK Economist not the MP spelling and Crosby background differentiate
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Gentleman in the streets; freak in the spreadsheet
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2020, 11:26:04 am »
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2558653/The-5-sneaky-perfectly-legal-ways-Britains-richest-parents-cut-tax-bill-private-school-fees.html

I find that somewhat tenuous - not lease of all because of the 5 ways it promotes, one is simply to do all of the other 4.

I would suggest, based off that article, that only the first one (with a discounted fee given to parents based on payment upfront) is directly related to the school fees themselves - but even that is milking it, in my opinion.

Early payment discounts are perfectly reasonable, and even common, in many industries. Plain and simple, that is all that has happened - what the school chooses to do with that money is it's own business and only a very small proportion of those fees could be invested in reality.

What I would say is that all of the ones suggested are convoluted and require significant, if not onerous, levels of administration for your average private school parent. 90% (maybe even more) will not be setting up offshore bonds, won't have rich grandparents who can set up a business and so on.

With the grandparent scenario, it doesn't even necessarily avoid tax (or avoid it entirely) as to make it run as described the company must be profitable, have distributable reserves, and therefore have paid Corp Tax on this before paying dividends out.

Offline bornandbRED

  • ... an ESL super fan. aka physioSTALKER
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,619
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2020, 11:28:59 am »
Interesting to see why you think that? Difficult statement to justify unless you’re suggesting only people who do exceptionally at school can succeed in HE. Universities outside of the elite do a lot more on social mobility (and also happen to deliver those boring unfashionable courses like nursing, social work etc...)

Prospects vs cost. Without trying to sound like a c*nt - the lesser ranked universities churn out graduates whom have inferior prospects yet the same debt as their counterparts at more prestigious unis with far better prospects. This isn’t my perspective, but the reality amongst employers and substantiated in the breakdown of entrants into graduate jobs. The degrees they offer are also generally far less intensive and thorough.

Going to Liverpool Hope vs UCL offers completely different experiences and prospects, yet this isn’t reflected in the cost to the student. It should be. I’m not for stopping people from studying whatever they want - but when there is a huge price tag attached, it’s disingenuous to not point out the two are very different.

Social work and nursing (and things like teaching) are very valuable, but could be delivered as part of vocational alternatives. I don’t have the exact answer but surely there is an alternative to sending thousands of students a year into unnecessary debt in exchange for low value, low prospect degrees, which ends up being the ultimate reality for many.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:36:50 am by bornandbRED »

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,753
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2020, 11:34:50 am »
Also a joke that unis are going to charge the same amounts in fees when courses will be primarily delivered online.

Considering there are only about 20-30 of them worth going to anyway, the U.K. university/higher education system is a cash cow that needs taking to the abbatoir.

If I was in the students shoes I would just leave it for a year and go next year (that’s what I did but in different circumstances). Paying £9k for in fees is a joke as it is but if your losing the contact time with lecturers and the whole uni experience but still expected to pay the same fees I’d tell them to shove it. The other benefit of going next year is if you already have your grades the actual application process is a lot easier because your not dependent on predicted grades and they will either reject you or give you an unconditional offer because you already have the grades.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline lobsterboy

  • Sworn enemy of crayfishgirl. Likes to draw spunking cocks n balls at sunday school
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,856
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2020, 11:38:16 am »
These schools exist to protect the status quo for the privileged.
Should the education of the wealthiest really be a "charity" when the schools for the least affluent are falling apart, understaffed and overcrowded?
Like all our tax laws and basically our entire social system, its skewed to protect the elite. 
I went to a private fee paying school with charitable status after passing my 11+.
As a working class kid it was a horrible experience so maybe my opinion is skewed somewhat.

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2020, 11:41:09 am »
These schools exist to protect the status quo for the privileged.
Should the education of the wealthiest really be a "charity" when the schools for the least affluent are falling apart, understaffed and overcrowded?
Like all our tax laws and basically our entire social system, its skewed to protect the elite. 
I went to a private fee paying school with charitable status after passing my 11+.
As a working class kid it was a horrible experience so maybe my opinion is skewed somewhat.

Your own article you linked shows that the majority who go to them are not the elite though. They are working families who are taking sacrifices to send their kids there.

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2020, 11:46:01 am »
Your own article you linked shows that the majority who go to them are not the elite though. They are working families who are taking sacrifices to send their kids there.


If the state education system was adequately funded, there would be less argument to send children to private schools. One of the reasons the state education system is so chronically underfunded is due to allowing a financial elite to dodge the sort of tax obligations the rest of us have to meet. Giving tax breaks to private schools is part of that skewed system.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2020, 11:48:15 am »

If the state education system was adequately funded, there would be less argument to send children to private schools. One of the reasons the state education system is so chronically underfunded is due to allowing a financial elite to dodge the sort of tax obligations the rest of us have to meet. Giving tax breaks to private schools is part of that skewed system.

Removing the tax break for private education would not even come close to covering the current under funding state schools have experienced for the last decade - let alone make them adequately funded. That's ignoring the money needed to sort the crumbling buildings in a lot of them.

That's before you then see a massive influx of kids who were previously privately educated who now need to go to a state funded school because private school prices have gone through the roof.

The tax saved via this method is such small fry to the elite I doubt they'd even care. The only ones it hurts would be those working families.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2020, 11:50:20 am »
A fair basis, but strictly speaking so do state schools - I come at this purely from an audit/accountancy point of view. I get though that you are making a clear definition between government funding vs private funding.

In my view, there needs to be an owner/ownership structure that benefits from control of a company to take it from a charitable undertaking to being a profit based business but I respect where you are coming from.
Private schools are absolutely businesses. Many are for profit (even if this is not overtly obvious). 
Whilst some are charitable trusts others aren’t.  However, the issue many people will have is that most of the schools which are charitable trusts do almost nothing to justify their status.  Others do an awful lot, for all the privilege of Eton,  it is one of the schools that could actually justify their status on the charitable work they do.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Nobby Reserve

  • Onanistic Charades Champion Of Roundabouts. Euphemistic Gerbil Starver.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,984
  • Do you wanna build a snowman?
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2020, 11:54:04 am »
Removing the tax break for private education would not even come close to covering the current under funding state schools have experienced for the last decade - let alone make them adequately funded. That's ignoring the money needed to sort the crumbling buildings in a lot of them.

That's before you then see a massive influx of kids who were previously privately educated who now need to go to a state funded school because private school prices have gone through the roof.


Of course it wouldn't. But cracking down on tax loopholes would. The abuse of Trusts, offshoring, non-dom status, etc - all allowed by successive governments.

If I were PM my first task would be to get draconian as fuck on tax dodging. Close the loopholes and make false income declaration a criminal offence with an automatic prison sentence.

Ideally, I'd impose a freeze on all assets held in the BOTs and CDs, then undertake a full audit and impose a 25% windfall tax (in lieu of past tax dodging) on all assets above £1m. But I'm not sure on the international legality of such a move  :lmao

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline ianburns252

  • RAWK Economist not the MP spelling and Crosby background differentiate
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Gentleman in the streets; freak in the spreadsheet
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #99 on: August 14, 2020, 12:11:08 pm »
Private schools are absolutely businesses. Many are for profit (even if this is not overtly obvious). 
Whilst some are charitable trusts others aren’t.  However, the issue many people will have is that most of the schools which are charitable trusts do almost nothing to justify their status.  Others do an awful lot, for all the privilege of Eton,  it is one of the schools that could actually justify their status on the charitable work they do.

I agree with the idea that they are "for profit" - but I stand by my assertion that they are not benefiting an ownership structure, which I believe was the implication of the other poster (think Nobby). If I have misinterpreted things then my apologies.

I would 100% agree that they are run in a business-like fashion - it would be against their constitution to not be run effectively and efficiently.

I understood the contention to be around distributions as opposed to the running style so I'll happily concede on this.

The point on charitable status is a tricky one as it is subjective as to how much they should be doing to justify it. They are, from appearances, doing the minimum required by the Charities Commission - whether that is sufficient is another question entirely and one I think many would agree should be set at a higher bar, but it is also the case then that by current definitions they are not operating fraudulently - ethically or morally though is open to debate.

My main thing here is that I believe the discussion needs to be moved away from the catch all approach it appears to take - fewer absolute terms (may be guilty of that myself at times too) and appreciating that independent schools are not some homogeneous entity where everyone is in a top hat and tails, speaks Latin, and rests their feet on the backs of their "fag"

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,950
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2020, 12:13:07 pm »
https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/meYM2eijGaLdfLeD6nvQ_gmt1hvllEr2dM0AhtArFvA/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3CWA6A66C%2F20200814%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200814T091909Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEMb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIQDsLfoNA0tvYkSLETrXE9Xf5UcqUZmWbHq%2B4fOKyHDmEwIgN9y24T23YFnaNQGLi%2BRbw%2BuZgcO4I%2BgXhE1IVV7ykrcqvQMIn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARACGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDMzgdOOicX4uBYAWWCqRA1tp95jE5aWCfWwtP3koj%2F9vkm6X1n0CrNaWpimOmJRp8Uc2T3%2F6v4pY5PzJ8nRst1bAitSCqv4ug86%2FWGcw4A%2FvFQTiLn%2BZ5Sw%2B9qT8%2FRaCzMPC53ALJgGbZvnUcrtJ7ansv9lwh0076QjnBtEvLmN%2Ble7%2FWAAJbiYPQWLfwjmaNlAEWoQA6%2FJ0CPM%2FBhxSX6yK%2Bww2sJs%2FKYQwr4btx5mY08cxFg8VusTqXive5K6l9QQzpJO25bb6%2FcDIdBRY7akQume64vMEh11Qh3HKEYM%2FR%2B0AinwChB1Q5FawCGy7sYnYUs7MF467Ko8gcI1HTUlaFowvlnBw5LtWnBjGrprfh18qE1ABobp4iXFBHSjOURcbrMRv%2Fz5VY5%2FtYHvW9AgAobnl3Zs5pYvc89%2BVYKzfuntacYmm4yO4brdagEGnwgyBDC7pQtVBZAg8DteUemetxZoTfPIW7MK1beDcZK7l%2FjHuRAkjFXeROlxxJZOWhJOnekvlLRbIRqOSxf14nSXGo6hu8jRzt%2BQIsbOCZ6VeMMPA2PkFOusBIN2zvh7LiWrrcdeeWX0Iy9c4sD20LtOvTg3QBQDQwN81HMHoAsLZWhqlaH1AyhTt4269ekvOmOq0QULx4h75pLETZBkoYH26O%2BaZ7UAb4TTkd1rwlrtpIs1qHIDFuXg4DQTFCtwDz00ufj%2BlCgRHDnAwUM0qzXjl8fd5m8%2F0%2BSvNPVi3d%2FmwJ2UpQgo8lz2pyGktRHBmEnC3z6AStKtimHnJ7K38PbaeIuTXEbliU5xPo7tUSoYh9NZTJPxKB1LQd9VrDMZMQSd%2Fgoe9bhdEXmxxcDOLbw2rsj1zSc8z%2F1a4NwFDeRoaTnvrGw%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=7cecd58306ee832deaa27b2edbf2ae25310ce14a815c5bc830c754910adfeaf7

(might need someone savvier than me to tidy that link up).

That link is bonkers. You can do it like this:
Code: [Select]
[url=https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/meYM2eijGaLdfLeD6nvQ_gmt1hvllEr2dM0AhtArFvA/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3CWA6A66C%2F20200814%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200814T091909Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEMb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIQDsLfoNA0tvYkSLETrXE9Xf5UcqUZmWbHq%2B4fOKyHDmEwIgN9y24T23YFnaNQGLi%2BRbw%2BuZgcO4I%2BgXhE1IVV7ykrcqvQMIn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARACGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDMzgdOOicX4uBYAWWCqRA1tp95jE5aWCfWwtP3koj%2F9vkm6X1n0CrNaWpimOmJRp8Uc2T3%2F6v4pY5PzJ8nRst1bAitSCqv4ug86%2FWGcw4A%2FvFQTiLn%2BZ5Sw%2B9qT8%2FRaCzMPC53ALJgGbZvnUcrtJ7ansv9lwh0076QjnBtEvLmN%2Ble7%2FWAAJbiYPQWLfwjmaNlAEWoQA6%2FJ0CPM%2FBhxSX6yK%2Bww2sJs%2FKYQwr4btx5mY08cxFg8VusTqXive5K6l9QQzpJO25bb6%2FcDIdBRY7akQume64vMEh11Qh3HKEYM%2FR%2B0AinwChB1Q5FawCGy7sYnYUs7MF467Ko8gcI1HTUlaFowvlnBw5LtWnBjGrprfh18qE1ABobp4iXFBHSjOURcbrMRv%2Fz5VY5%2FtYHvW9AgAobnl3Zs5pYvc89%2BVYKzfuntacYmm4yO4brdagEGnwgyBDC7pQtVBZAg8DteUemetxZoTfPIW7MK1beDcZK7l%2FjHuRAkjFXeROlxxJZOWhJOnekvlLRbIRqOSxf14nSXGo6hu8jRzt%2BQIsbOCZ6VeMMPA2PkFOusBIN2zvh7LiWrrcdeeWX0Iy9c4sD20LtOvTg3QBQDQwN81HMHoAsLZWhqlaH1AyhTt4269ekvOmOq0QULx4h75pLETZBkoYH26O%2BaZ7UAb4TTkd1rwlrtpIs1qHIDFuXg4DQTFCtwDz00ufj%2BlCgRHDnAwUM0qzXjl8fd5m8%2F0%2BSvNPVi3d%2FmwJ2UpQgo8lz2pyGktRHBmEnC3z6AStKtimHnJ7K38PbaeIuTXEbliU5xPo7tUSoYh9NZTJPxKB1LQd9VrDMZMQSd%2Fgoe9bhdEXmxxcDOLbw2rsj1zSc8z%2F1a4NwFDeRoaTnvrGw%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=7cecd58306ee832deaa27b2edbf2ae25310ce14a815c5bc830c754910adfeaf7]Link[/url]

The above displays like this:

Link


You can add a text hyperlink anywhere in your post. Here's an easier to follow example:
Code: [Select]
Visit [url=https://www.redandwhitekop.com]RAWK[/url], the best LFC supporter's website.

The above displays like this:

Visit RAWK, the best LFC supporter's website.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 12:15:46 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline ianburns252

  • RAWK Economist not the MP spelling and Crosby background differentiate
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Gentleman in the streets; freak in the spreadsheet
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2020, 12:24:58 pm »
Thanks Jimminy - I'll try and keep note of that next time I have the urge to take up half a page with a link!

Offline gamble

  • andproctor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,822
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2020, 01:47:48 pm »
Can anybody explain the “algorithm “ used for predictIng grades?

Any concrete proof that it favours the privileged/public schools?

I just want to know if something ideological is being used against schoolchildren

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2020, 01:57:04 pm »
Can anybody explain the “algorithm “ used for predictIng grades?

Any concrete proof that it favours the privileged/public schools?

I just want to know if something ideological is being used against schoolchildren
Essentially, for subjects with reasonable numbers, they look at how the school performed over the last few years, compare it to the ability of this cohort and make up a set of grades based on that and the teacher rankings.

Now, when you have smaller class sizes that doesn’t work so well.  So for smaller class sizes they are putting more weight onto the grades given to them by teachers.

Now private schools have typically smaller class sizes, so they have benefited  most.
However the least advantages kids have improved their grades from 2019 by more than any other economic group, so there is some positive news here.

The bias towards private schools is on the basis of cohort size, I can’t imagine it was on purpose, but then intent isn’t the point is it?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Elmo!

  • Spolier alret!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,335
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2020, 02:20:46 pm »
This is fairly damning. From analysis of running the algorithm on last years results, it gets the grade right at best 2/3 of the time.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1294176302082162688




Offline gamble

  • andproctor
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,822
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2020, 02:20:58 pm »
Thanks tepid

Offline RainbowFlick

  • The Test Ticket Tout. Head of the RAWK Vice Squad.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,403
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2020, 03:38:14 pm »
The whole thing is an absolute farce. Including the appeals process and the cost of resisting. Has negative impacts on so many working class kids.

I am extremely anti-private, grammar or selective schools and this further underlines how the inequality is essentially maintained.
YNWA.

Offline west_london_red

  • Knows his stuff - pull the udder one! RAWK's Dairy Queen.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,753
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2020, 05:16:29 pm »
This is fairly damning. From analysis of running the algorithm on last years results, it gets the grade right at best 2/3 of the time.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1294176302082162688






But predicted grades are only right about 40% of the time so doesn’t that make the algorithm better?
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
Rest, love, observe. Laugh.

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2020, 05:17:27 pm »
But predicted grades are only right about 40% of the time so doesn’t that make the algorithm better?

No because these predicted grades were worked out a lot differently to normal ones.

Offline TheKid.

  • Goat abuser
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,064
  • Vamos
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2020, 05:32:00 pm »
I really can’t buy the line of teachers over-inflating grades being the reason they had to drop so many down

At our place, robust systems were put in by middle leaders and SLT to ensure that grades were accurate reflections of progress. I imagine that would be the case in most schools

Offline ljycb

  • RAWK's Bullen Oracle of Wisdom & Knowledge, the Collective Voice of our Moral Conscience
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,674
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2020, 05:37:59 pm »
Didn’t expect there to be so many on here supportive of the government on this, which goes to show just how much I know about how any of this works. It’s just awfully sad seeing young people in a situation like this through no fault of their own.

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2020, 05:40:13 pm »
I really can’t buy the line of teachers over-inflating grades being the reason they had to drop so many down

At our place, robust systems were put in by middle leaders and SLT to ensure that grades were accurate reflections of progress. I imagine that would be the case in most schools
There’s a reason for it though...

Teachers assess capability, whereas exam as assess actual performance.  For instance, if you have 5 kids who you judge capable of an A, they won’t all perform to A grade standard in the exam.  Maybe only 3 of them will.

So the teachers have done nothing wrong.  Unfortunately an algorithm is picking who are the ones who won’t perform on the day
That being said, I don’t know a system that would be much better AND not disadvantage other year groups by huge grade inflation this year.

The appeals process is the real shambles.  How can you announce an appeals recess on the grounds of a valid mock and then not have any single guidance for schools until a week or so later?  Kids have university places waiting on these and we cannot tell them anything

That’s awful.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2020, 05:41:28 pm »
Didn’t expect there to be so many on here supportive of the government on this, which goes to show just how much I know about how any of this works. It’s just awfully sad seeing young people in a situation like this through no fault of their own.
It’s an impossible situation. Any single solution has huge downsides.

The question is.  What would you do that was better? And that’s a bloody hard question to answer.

That being said, there are some obvious issues.

No students ever get a lower grade for maths than further maths. Because further maths is harder by design.

This year? 1 in 30 got a lower grade.  Bonkers.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 05:43:30 pm by Tepid T₂O »
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2020, 05:41:43 pm »
Unfortunately an algorithm is picking who are the ones who won’t perform on the day

How in the world could it do that?

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2020, 05:44:19 pm »
How in the world could it do that?
It couldn’t.  Largely our grade set looks about right if you consider the last three years.  One year dire, one good and one so so.

But for individuals? It’s a bit weird. 
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TheKid.

  • Goat abuser
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,064
  • Vamos
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2020, 05:46:36 pm »
It couldn’t.  Largely our grade set looks about right if you consider the last three years.  One year dire, one good and one so so.

But for individuals? It’s a bit weird. 

Think that’s the same for us too - but like you say it doesn’t help the individual who needs certain grades for uni places

We only had one year 13 pupil in MFL (she was actually resorting as she messed up all her subjects except for ours so when she resat them she did us to try to increase a grade) and she got what we said

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,462
  • YNWA
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2020, 06:17:06 pm »
It couldn’t.  Largely our grade set looks about right if you consider the last three years.  One year dire, one good and one so so.

But for individuals? It’s a bit weird.

Sorry, totally misread that bit of your post. Yeah we’re agreeing  ;D

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #117 on: August 14, 2020, 06:38:02 pm »
Think that’s the same for us too - but like you say it doesn’t help the individual who needs certain grades for uni places

We only had one year 13 pupil in MFL (she was actually resorting as she messed up all her subjects except for ours so when she resat them she did us to try to increase a grade) and she got what we said
I’ve had dozens of conversations ...they all want to agree because they don’t  with their grade.

And they can’t.  But it’s really difficult to convince parents that there just isn’t a way to appeal because of that.

This mock exam appeal thing is a total cluster fuck.  We have no idea what it is and now I am getting people citing mitigating circumstances against an exam sat six months ago with.  More want to use their year 12 exam..

It’s just insane.

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TheKid.

  • Goat abuser
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,064
  • Vamos
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #118 on: August 14, 2020, 06:39:34 pm »
I take it we are fully expecting a similar scenario for GCSE’s next week, Tepid?

Offline TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,676
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: A Level farce/General Education ranting
« Reply #119 on: August 14, 2020, 06:49:21 pm »
I take it we are fully expecting a similar scenario for GCSE’s next week, Tepid?
Car crash you mean? Oh yes.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W