Topic: A Level farce/General Education ranting

[TepidT2O]

You can’t  appeal because you don’t like the grade. 

You can appeal because the  school has been biased against you (but you’d need evidence of that.
You can appeal because of an admin error.
You can appeal if you think the algorithm used for your school was wrong (it will fail, but you can try)
You can appeal on mock grades.  We’ve got hundreds of these but we have no idea what the criteria is.

You cant just appeal because you don’t agree with the grade sadly.

[west_london_red]

Apparently GCSE’s are also taken into account somehow which does concern me, as on a personal level I remember a teacher telling me that although I was predicted AAA, based on my GCSE’s I would be expected to get substantially lower particularly because I only got a B in GCSE History, and people who get B’s in GCSE’s typically get C’s and D’s if they do the same subject at A level.

[killer-heels]

You can’t  appeal because you don’t like the grade. 

You can appeal because the  school has been biased against you (but you’d need evidence of that.
You can appeal because of an admin error.
You can appeal if you think the algorithm used for your school was wrong (it will fail, but you can try)
You can appeal on mock grades.  We’ve got hundreds of these but we have no idea what the criteria is.

You cant just appeal because you don’t agree with the grade sadly.

So what was Williamson saying in terms of choosing to go with your predicted grades?

[Macphisto80]

Remember when you were younger and you were told that the system is rigged, the rich geared to get richer and all that. Someone would inevitably come along to tell you it was just a nonsense and a conspiracy and all nonsense, and that if you worked hard, you'd get to where you wanted to be eventually. Well, I think with things like this blatantly happening, it sort of proves the former, and dispels the latter, does it not?

[TepidT2O]

So what was Williamson saying in terms of choosing to go with your predicted grades?

He talked about appealing on the grounds of a “valid mock grade”.  We have literally no idea what that means.  They will release details next week.

If the kid has a B in a mock and got awarded a C, it might be (and I stress might), that they can appeal on the grounds of their mock and get a B.

It is worth contacting the school about that, but they won’t know much  about it yet as the guidance hasn’t been released yet (helpful eh?).

If kids think they have a valid basis for an appeal and the school hasn’t acted on this, they should complain via the school’s complaints procedure. They will have that on the school website.

But agian, they can’t just appeal because they don’t like their grade (sadly).

[TepidT2O]

Remember when you were younger and you were told that the system is rigged, the rich geared to get richer and all that. Someone would inevitably come along to tell you it was just a nonsense and a conspiracy and all nonsense, and that if you worked hard, you'd get to where you wanted to be eventually. Well, I think with things like this blatantly happening, it sort of proves the former, and dispels the latter, does it not?

Although the poorest kids grades increased most this year compared to the results on 2019.

[Iska]

Has England basically taken the same approach that Scotland had to abandon after three days of outcry?

[12C]

He talked about appealing on the grounds of a “valid mock grade”.  We have literally no idea what that means.  They will release details next week.

If the kid has a B in a mock and got awarded a C, it might be (and I stress might), that they can appeal on the grounds of their mock and get a B.

It is worth contacting the school about that, but they won’t know much  about it yet as the guidance hasn’t been released yet (helpful eh?).

If kids think they have a valid basis for an appeal and the school hasn’t acted on this, they should complain via the school’s complaints procedure. They will have that on the school website.

But agian, they can’t just appeal because they don’t like their grade (sadly).

Tepid, do you get the feeling that Williamson (or more likely his SpAd) thought up this wheeze  on Tuesday evening when they saw how the fall out from Scotland had landed?
I thought Gove was the worst in a long line of terrible Education Secretaries, but he looks stellar compared to this feller.
A man who most people wouldn’t trust to sell them a functioning kitchen is telling teachers that 40% of their judgements are unreliable.
I really feel sorry for the many people I know in teaching, having this incompetent fool blundering around making decisions based on his chimp like thoughts.
Take care.

[TepidT2O]

Tepid, do you get the feeling that Williamson (or more likely his SpAd) thought up this wheeze  on Tuesday evening when they saw how the fall out from Scotland had landed?
I thought Gove was the worst in a long line of terrible Education Secretaries, but he looks stellar compared to this feller.
A man who most people wouldn’t trust to sell them a functioning kitchen is telling teachers that 40% of their judgements are unreliable.
I really feel sorry for the many people I know in teaching, having this incompetent fool blundering around making decisions based on his chimp like thoughts.
Take care.

No, no.

Tuesday morning.

This was spurred on by the Scottish debacle.  The problem is we have no idea what this mock appeals means.  If you can just have your mock grade?  Great.
But it can’t be that? Surely to goodness.  It’s open to massive abuse.

The grades overall I understand.  It isn’t fair for certain pupils, but it’s probably less unfair than other systems (and is better than Scotland by quite a ways.

But they should have released the grades to schools a couple of weeks back and let us have 5% (say) of grades we could adjust to account for the obvious wiring ones.

Hey ho.

[Snail]

Remember when you were younger and you were told that the system is rigged, the rich geared to get richer and all that. Someone would inevitably come along to tell you it was just a nonsense and a conspiracy and all nonsense, and that if you worked hard, you'd get to where you wanted to be eventually. Well, I think with things like this blatantly happening, it sort of proves the former, and dispels the latter, does it not?

There’ll be some on here who disagree with you, but as my conscience is clear I won’t be one of them.

[TepidT2O]

Ofqual consulted on how the grades should be arrived at. In my consultation I asked for the least advantages pupils to be grade more generously.. 

It hasn’t really happened.

[Circa1892]

I thought Gove was the worst in a long line of terrible Education Secretaries, but he looks stellar compared to this feller.

No Gove is still the worst. Among many things - his and Cummings evidence free removal of coursework, AS Levels etc put us here.

[TepidT2O]

No Gove is still the worst. Among many things - his and Cummings evidence free removal of coursework, AS Levels etc put us here.

Coursework had a really good reason to go.

It gave a huge advantage to affluent kids.  That’s why it went. It was to make a more level playing field.

It took huge amounts of time to teach it, prepare it and to jump through hoops. It cost the precession staff.

And those schools that cheated the system best (and boy oh boy I was good at doing it within the rules) tended to have the most affluent kids.

I’d have certainly  kept AS though

[thaddeus]

My eldest godson went from predicted B-C-C to B-D-D.  My wife was just speaking to his mum and she was really angry although he apparently wasn't that bothered on the face of it (he wasn't going to university anyway and has got a job lined up).  I wanted to grab the phone and tell him he should be angry as it's just another course of the shit he and his get thrown their way by this government.

One slightly amusing point amongst it all was that he got E-E-A in his mocks which it sounds like he massively phoned in like a lot of kids would have done.  My wife asked about the A and it was because the teacher had talked them through each question (in terms of explaining what the question was probing for), they had textbooks and were encouraged to use them.  The teacher used it as exam practice and training.

It sounds like at the end of it he will have grades of B-D-A if they push on having the mock grade applied.  His mum said they won't but there's nothing really stopping them from doing so as I understand it from the tiny bit of detail given by the government.

I don't envy the government on this one as it was always going to be messy.  They have made it messier than it could have been though and will likely make it worse in the coming days.

[thaddeus]

As an aside, a quick question for the teachers.  Do schools still get the Fischer Family Trust estimates and are they actually any good?

[west_london_red]

Am I the only one slightly envious that the kids this year didn’t have to sit their exams? I don’t say this lightly but I was in the last year of the old A Levels before AS Levels came in so all the exams were at the end, 2/3 A Levels I took were based only on exams (no coursework) and although I always studied hard during the two years and kept on top of stuff (I picked a very random selection of subjects but picked what interested me which helped), but pressure from parents (stereotypical Indian parents where education is literally everything) studying 10-12 hours a day, not sleeping, not eating, it was an absolutely brutal 6 weeks or so of study leave and exams and certainly something I would have happily done without.

[TepidT2O]

Am I the only one slightly envious that the kids this year didn’t have to sit their exams? I don’t say this lightly but I was in the last year of the old A Levels before AS Levels came in so all the exams were at the end, 2/3 A Levels I took were based only on exams (no coursework) and although I always studied hard during the two years and kept on top of stuff (I picked a very random selection of subjects but picked what interested me which helped), but pressure from parents (stereotypical Indian parents where education is literally everything) studying 10-12 hours a day, not sleeping, not eating, it was an absolutely brutal 6 weeks or so of study leave and exams and certainly something I would have happily done without.

I did 5 days for my A levels

[west_london_red]

I did 5 days for my A levels

Feck off!

And I did proper subjects, no Media Studies or any of that nonsense!

[TepidT2O]

Feck off!

And I did proper subjects, no Media Studies or any of that nonsense!

Biology Chemistry Physics...

I how you enjoyed Art Textiles

[west_london_red]

Biology Chemistry Physics...

I how you enjoyed Art Textiles

Textiles... is that even a subject?

[TepidT2O]

Textiles... is that even a subject?

There’s textiles AND art textiles...

Photography... the works..

[west_london_red]

There’s textiles AND art textiles...

Photography... the works..

I know about Photography, but that’s only because my wife did it. I can only imagine my parents reaction if I said I wanted to study something like that, they freaked out over me studying History FFS!

[TepidT2O]

I know about Photography, but that’s only because my wife did it. I can only imagine my parents reaction if I said I wanted to study something like that, they freaked out over me studying History FFS!

Imagine!

I’ve dealt with enough Indian parent to know that often 99% in an exam would be met with a raised eyebrow about the missed 1% rather than congratulations

[west_london_red]

Imagine!

I’ve dealt with enough Indian parent to know that often 99% in an exam would be met with a raised eyebrow about the missed 1% rather than congratulations

On a more serious note, what’s the situation with students wanting to retake the year and sit their exams next summer? Personally, if I’d been shafted by the grades I’d been given that would be my preferred option, especially if in some subjects your grades are ok so you don’t have to retake them all.

[TepidT2O]

On a more serious note, what’s the situation with students wanting to retake the year and sit their exams next summer? Personally, if I’d been shafted by the grades I’d been given that would be my preferred option, especially if in some subjects your grades are ok so you don’t have to retake them all.

We only had one ask about it.  We’ve been asked to be more open to it than normal.

 It most kids have just enough of school,..... I know I have

[B0151?]

I feel so sorry for the kids. As much as anything, it's simply not fair that they never got the chance to study hard and do better than they were even expected. I know maybe there's not much anyone could do about that, but it's still so unfair on a personal level.

I know for me, my performances in the last set of exams I did (which included some resits) was what got me into the uni I wanted. I don't know if that would have benefited me or not due to the fact I was a high achiever underperforming most of college then pulled it out of the bag in the last exams. Would I have been screwed?

The only thing I'd say is, what do kids even think of starting university this year? For me a big part of going to uni was the social side, not just getting pissed but the whole campus life, and obviously that's going to be completely different this year

[bornandbRED]

It’s fundamentally fucked, as many, many kids do much better in exams than in mocks and assessments throughout the year. Especially when they had no clue those assessments would end up being their actual grades. 

[Circa1892]

The only thing I'd say is, what do kids even think of starting university this year? For me a big part of going to uni was the social side, not just getting pissed but the whole campus life, and obviously that's going to be completely different this year

The reason people will go to Uni is because there’s fuck all else to do. The usual options which lead to deferring are “travel” or “get a job to save some money” - travel isn’t an option and there are no jobs.

Uni will be a mess though. They’ve all out a lot of effort into teaching etc - but none into the day to day. Part of Uni for me was bumping into a mate I’d not seen for a while in the library and planned intense library study days becoming accidental pub trips etc. A click and collect books service that you’re intended to read in your bedroom doesn’t cut it.

That said, I’d probably have actually done well in these circumstances rather than pissing my loan away in the pub so maybe it’s a blessing...

[bornandbRED]

Also a joke that unis are going to charge the same amounts in fees when courses will be primarily delivered online.

Considering there are only about 20-30 of them worth going to anyway, the U.K. university/higher education system is a cash cow that needs taking to the abbatoir.

[Elmo!]

Also a joke that unis are going to charge the same amounts in fees when courses will be primarily delivered online.

Considering there are only about 20-30 of them worth going to anyway, the U.K. university/higher education system is a cash cow that needs taking to the abbatoir.

Problem for the unis is they don't make any money from domestic students - and they are facing a huge drop in foreign students this year.

[ianburns252]

Many are tax exempt as they are "charities" as well don't forget. There are even tax avoidance benefits for parents on the fees they pay. In essence we fund privileged sociopath training institutions while our own kids get crammed into classes of 40 at schools which have been starved of funds for well over a decade.

Do you want to elaborate on that a bit? Think a statement that parents are finding ways to avoid tax through payment of schools fees is quite the accusation and deserves a bit of backing.

Schools on the whole are deemed charitable institutions - it isn't some little cabal scheming and scamming to get an exemption that others don't; rather it is convention.

For reference I've attached a copy of Range High School's (in Formby) accounts to show that they too are deemed a charity

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/meYM2eijGaLdfLeD6nvQ_gmt1hvllEr2dM0AhtArFvA/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3CWA6A66C%2F20200814%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200814T091909Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEMb%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJHMEUCIQDsLfoNA0tvYkSLETrXE9Xf5UcqUZmWbHq%2B4fOKyHDmEwIgN9y24T23YFnaNQGLi%2BRbw%2BuZgcO4I%2BgXhE1IVV7ykrcqvQMIn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FARACGgw0NDkyMjkwMzI4MjIiDMzgdOOicX4uBYAWWCqRA1tp95jE5aWCfWwtP3koj%2F9vkm6X1n0CrNaWpimOmJRp8Uc2T3%2F6v4pY5PzJ8nRst1bAitSCqv4ug86%2FWGcw4A%2FvFQTiLn%2BZ5Sw%2B9qT8%2FRaCzMPC53ALJgGbZvnUcrtJ7ansv9lwh0076QjnBtEvLmN%2Ble7%2FWAAJbiYPQWLfwjmaNlAEWoQA6%2FJ0CPM%2FBhxSX6yK%2Bww2sJs%2FKYQwr4btx5mY08cxFg8VusTqXive5K6l9QQzpJO25bb6%2FcDIdBRY7akQume64vMEh11Qh3HKEYM%2FR%2B0AinwChB1Q5FawCGy7sYnYUs7MF467Ko8gcI1HTUlaFowvlnBw5LtWnBjGrprfh18qE1ABobp4iXFBHSjOURcbrMRv%2Fz5VY5%2FtYHvW9AgAobnl3Zs5pYvc89%2BVYKzfuntacYmm4yO4brdagEGnwgyBDC7pQtVBZAg8DteUemetxZoTfPIW7MK1beDcZK7l%2FjHuRAkjFXeROlxxJZOWhJOnekvlLRbIRqOSxf14nSXGo6hu8jRzt%2BQIsbOCZ6VeMMPA2PkFOusBIN2zvh7LiWrrcdeeWX0Iy9c4sD20LtOvTg3QBQDQwN81HMHoAsLZWhqlaH1AyhTt4269ekvOmOq0QULx4h75pLETZBkoYH26O%2BaZ7UAb4TTkd1rwlrtpIs1qHIDFuXg4DQTFCtwDz00ufj%2BlCgRHDnAwUM0qzXjl8fd5m8%2F0%2BSvNPVi3d%2FmwJ2UpQgo8lz2pyGktRHBmEnC3z6AStKtimHnJ7K38PbaeIuTXEbliU5xPo7tUSoYh9NZTJPxKB1LQd9VrDMZMQSd%2Fgoe9bhdEXmxxcDOLbw2rsj1zSc8z%2F1a4NwFDeRoaTnvrGw%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=7cecd58306ee832deaa27b2edbf2ae25310ce14a815c5bc830c754910adfeaf7

(might need someone savvier than me to tidy that link up).

These institutions, whether you like it or not, meet the definitions of a charity per the Charities Commission and have to continue to prove it. I'm not going to disagree with your comment that state schools classes are too large and that many (not all) are underfunded but there is a huge misconception over what constitutes an independent school and the sort of people who go - not everywhere is an Eton or Harrow for example.

[CraigDS]

(might need someone savvier than me to tidy that link up).

Not their newest accounts but shows your point... https://www.range.sefton.sch.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2016-17-Annual-Reports-Accounts.pdf

[Nobby Reserve]

Fee-paying private schools are businesses and shouldn't be given charitable status. That they are is simply because 'the Establishment' invariably send their kids to fee-paying private schools.

They should be taxed as corporations, and fees have VAT applied to them.

[ianburns252]

Nice one Craig - my answer to most things in life is to go on Companies House; should have thought to check their own website!

[CraigDS]

Fee-paying private schools are businesses and shouldn't be given charitable status. That they are is simply because 'the Establishment' invariably send their kids to fee-paying private schools.

They should be taxed as corporations, and fees have VAT applied to them.

If they did this then fee's would be even higher, and even more out the reach of a lot of the population.

There are loads out there who work their way into a decent paying job and send their kids to a fee-paying school which would probably not be able to if they didn't have charitable status.

[Nobby Reserve]

Listening to an education expert on R5L, and reading this very informative Twitter thread - https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1294170607643430912?s=19 - has given me a btter understanding of how shit this system is.

Basically, allocated grades assessed by teachers/schools are largely irrelevant. It's the pupil rankings by the teachers/schools that are used, with algorithms based heavily on previous school performance applied to decide the gradings for all pupils in a particular school.


It effectively builds in brakes on attainment and improvement if a school has been improving.


AFAIUI, it essentially applies the average of the last 3 or 5 years of grades attained by pupils of any particular school and applies that to this year's pupils of that school using the ranking list provided by the school. So (assuming a 3-year average) a school getting 70%, 75%, 80% passrates in subject, then forecasting an 85% passrate for 2020 (a reasonable progression on the face of it) would instead have their results for that subject downgraded toward the average passrate for the preceding 3 years, ie 75%. Within that, the school will be allocated a certain number of each grade for each subject. The school's rankings will decide who gets A*, A, B, etc


The real losers here are those pupils at schools that have in previous years not had high passrates. Those schools are almost all in areas of higher economic deprivation. Recent improvements in those schools, together with having gifted pupils or ones who have worked their socks off to get A* projections are disregarded.


This is a fundamental element of the way the system has been designed, and can only be the result of:


a) Incompetence - it hadn't occurred to the system designers what effect their system would have, and the hugely negative impact on widening access for pupils from economically deprived areas


b) It's a deliberate policy and the social engineering aspect - to suppress the grades of pupils from economically deprived areas and the widening of access to further education and especially to 'elite' universities - is part of this, whether by Ofqual or, more likely, Bozo's government of toffs.

[ianburns252]

Fee-paying private schools are businesses and shouldn't be given charitable status. That they are is simply because 'the Establishment' invariably send their kids to fee-paying private schools.

They should be taxed as corporations, and fees have VAT applied to them.

How do you define them as a business?

This is back to my point just above that not every fee paying school is an Eton or Harrow - most are much more modest in their form and, in my experience, undoubtedly meet the criteria for being a charitable organisation.

It is a slippery slope to bring taxation in to it too - education is not a taxable commodity and the provision of it should not be taxed.

There is usually a trading element to these schools (think things like uniforms) but they are taxed on these as trading operations.

End of the day, we haven't got shareholders extracting huge fees, trustees are not remunerated - the ones I have been involved with are, unequivocally, not run as businesses

[Nobby Reserve]

How do you define them as a business?

They receive payment in exchange for a service.

[Circa1892]

Considering there are only about 20-30 of them worth going to anyway

Interesting to see why you think that? Difficult statement to justify unless you’re suggesting only people who do exceptionally at school can succeed in HE. Universities outside of the elite do a lot more on social mobility (and also happen to deliver those boring unfashionable courses like nursing, social work etc...)

[ianburns252]

They receive payment in exchange for a service.

A fair basis, but strictly speaking so do state schools - I come at this purely from an audit/accountancy point of view. I get though that you are making a clear definition between government funding vs private funding.

In my view, there needs to be an owner/ownership structure that benefits from control of a company to take it from a charitable undertaking to being a profit based business but I respect where you are coming from.