Author Topic: Javier Mascherano  (Read 399678 times)

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #80 on: September 3, 2007, 02:31:38 pm »


So what, you think he would have dispossessed Rob Styles of his whistle with an incredible sliding challenge?

I imagine you are going to argue the ball would never have got that far if Masch was playing.  I'll offer three points in anticipation:

i) you can't possibly know that

ii) if we had decent officiating on the day, we probably would have won without him

iii) you are overlooking Alonso's lovely header in the lead-up to Torres' goal.  You can't be sure Mascherano would be far enough up the pitch to make that header, let alone whether he would have managed the task as neatly as Alonso did.

Can I just point out to everyone who still goes on about the Rob Styles incident of robbing us a win that day, to give it a rest. The fact was that we still had 30 minutes after they scored to win the game. We didn't. We had 62 minutes before the incident to get a second goal and put the game  to bed. We didn't.

Yes, Rob Styles gifted them a goal, but the pattern of the game at that juncture, was Chelsea were getting more and more dangerous, and i think it was only a matter of time before they scored. The chance they had with Terry before half time could have easily been  touched in with a bit of luck. Pizarro should have scored with that header, with a bit of luck. But that luck they were missing was provided back to them by the incompetence of an official. That doesn't mean that we only drew that game because of one man, as some on here would like it to be known.

Xabi was in my opinion, and still, is the worst of the  4 'best midfielders' currently. This is based on current form alone, and also not based on any goals being scored.  Masch is ahead of him. What Xabi gives us in terms of attacking initiative and passing, Masch more than compensates in terms of defensive cover, and allowing Gerrard to play offensively without needing to worry about anything behind him. We should have played our best midfield pairing against Chelsea. That means Gerrard and Masch. In my opinion, we would have won that game if we had. Rob Styles or no Rob Styles..
*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
****Liverpool need a Grobbelaar save...or a Conti miss. They've got a Conti miss!
*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Hightown Phil

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #81 on: September 3, 2007, 02:33:41 pm »
Pepe Reina isn't a midfielder...well not very often anyway.

Well worked out.

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #82 on: September 3, 2007, 02:38:28 pm »
Wiseguy eh?

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #83 on: September 3, 2007, 02:49:30 pm »
Just a guess - Copa America?? Rafa gave him 'light duties' at the start of the season so that he's still got something left in the tank at the end of the season. Accordingly I expect him to play more & more often as the season progresses, there will always be an element of horses for courses too but if I'm right he will play more & more often.


Agree about Copa Amerca, and need to give him more rest. But if he's fit enough to play against Derby, he should have played against Chelsea, and taken a rest against teams like Derby and Toulouse.
*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
****Liverpool need a Grobbelaar save...or a Conti miss. They've got a Conti miss!
*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #84 on: September 3, 2007, 02:57:40 pm »
Don't think that holds up - Mascherano was on the verge of signing for Juventus before Rafa went in.

He's agents had already tried to get Man U to buy both him and Tevez before they signed for West Ham. It was only because Ferguson was worried about the legal aspects of the contracts  that it didn't' go through. There's no denying Man U were definitely interested in him otherwise. I think he would have been better for them than Hargreaves.
*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
****Liverpool need a Grobbelaar save...or a Conti miss. They've got a Conti miss!
*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Mal

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #85 on: September 3, 2007, 02:58:01 pm »
Agree about Copa Amerca, and need to give him more rest. But if he's fit enough to play against Derby, he should have played against Chelsea, and taken a rest against teams like Derby and Toulouse.

Maybe, but Chelsea aren't exactly light duties, Derby & Toulouse are. It's also worth mentioning that  Gerrard was injured for the Derby game, if he'd been fit we don't know who'd have started that game... Maybe Alonso & Gerrard, maybe Gerrard & Masch, or maybe he'd have rested Gerrard anyway. We will never know.

Any comment about Masch's likely impact in the Chelsea game is just speculation & conjecture, we dropped two points and the longer the players believe it was Rob Styles' fault the longer they will have an extra motivation to win, especially when we go to the bridge.

Anyway, he's a class act, one we are lucky to have, we're even luckier to be able to afford giving him light duties to ease him back in.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2007, 03:01:16 pm by Mal »
@ManifoldReasons

Offline PaislyShankley

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #86 on: September 3, 2007, 03:01:23 pm »
The aim was always to get them both 'permanently' at huge clubs. Mission part accomplished.
M'eh

Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #87 on: September 3, 2007, 09:48:19 pm »
Can I just point out to everyone who still goes on about the Rob Styles incident of robbing us a win that day, to give it a rest. The fact was that we still had 30 minutes after they scored to win the game. We didn't. We had 62 minutes before the incident to get a second goal and put the game  to bed. We didn't.

Yes, Rob Styles gifted them a goal, but the pattern of the game at that juncture, was Chelsea were getting more and more dangerous, and i think it was only a matter of time before they scored. The chance they had with Terry before half time could have easily been  touched in with a bit of luck. Pizarro should have scored with that header, with a bit of luck. But that luck they were missing was provided back to them by the incompetence of an official. That doesn't mean that we only drew that game because of one man, as some on here would like it to be known.

Xabi was in my opinion, and still, is the worst of the  4 'best midfielders' currently. This is based on current form alone, and also not based on any goals being scored.  Masch is ahead of him. What Xabi gives us in terms of attacking initiative and passing, Masch more than compensates in terms of defensive cover, and allowing Gerrard to play offensively without needing to worry about anything behind him. We should have played our best midfield pairing against Chelsea. That means Gerrard and Masch. In my opinion, we would have won that game if we had. Rob Styles or no Rob Styles..

Comedy mate - an array of wild claims with no reference to facts: 

"the pattern of the game at that juncture, was Chelsea were getting more and more dangerous",

"Xabi was in my opinion, and still, is the worst of the  4 'best midfielders' currently.",

"Masch is ahead of him. What Xabi gives us in terms of attacking initiative and passing, Masch more than compensates in terms of defensive cover".

Can you offer some facts to substantiate that?  There seems to be a lot against what you claim and little for.

No one on this thread said Styles was the only reason Chelsea got a point, but the fact remains they only managed one serious shot on target and that was very much whistleblower-assisted.  Even with the Terry chance you allude to, that came off the back of a highly controversial free kick against Pennant in Ashley Cole's favour.  It's pretty hard to credibly argue they didn't get more than their fair share of luck on that occasion, too.

My question for you is: do you think Rafa generally makes decisions on the basis of 'feel' or 'facts'?  I know which one I'd back.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2007, 09:57:44 pm by Sissoko78 »

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #88 on: September 3, 2007, 09:55:31 pm »
Other players have their own threads and I think this guy deserves his own one.

There was-why it got locked i'd like to know??

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=174815.0


Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #89 on: September 3, 2007, 10:19:22 pm »
Comedy mate - an array of wild claims with no reference to facts: 

"the pattern of the game at that juncture, was Chelsea were getting more and more dangerous",

"Xabi was in my opinion, and still, is the worst of the  4 'best midfielders' currently.",

"Masch is ahead of him. What Xabi gives us in terms of attacking initiative and passing, Masch more than compensates in terms of defensive cover".

Can you offer some facts to substantiate that?  There seems to be a lot against what you claim and little for.

No one on this thread said Styles was the only reason Chelsea got a point, but the fact remains they only managed one serious shot on target and that was very much whistleblower-assisted.  Even with the Terry chance you allude to, that came off the back of a highly controversial free kick against Pennant in Ashley Cole's favour.  It's pretty hard to credibly argue they didn't get more than their fair share of luck on that occasion, too.

My question for you is: do you think Rafa generally makes decisions on the basis of 'feel' or 'facts'?  I know which one I'd back.

This is based on my opinion not facts. How do you propose me to back up "Xabi is playing through a patch of bad form", with facts? Obviously you disagree with my opinion. Can you  counter it then. It goes without saying, I'm expecting you to rely on facts.

Styles? I take it you haven't read the thread all the way through. Several people on here seem to allude to us losing two points based solely on the Styles decision. And nothing else.  Not on us not scoring a second goal when we were on top and before they scored, or having a full 30 minutes after the penalty to still try and win the game.

Shame you've fallen for the popular Sky sound bites of harping on about shots on target to defend your argument. If you've ever played the game you know that sometimes near misses like the one's Terry and Pizarro had (but weren't on target) are a more worthy and definitive statistic than the 'pass back to keeper' shot that Gerrard had early in the first half. According to Sky that chance had more chance of scoring than the two near misses Chelsea had.

As for your question; My question for you is: do you think Rafa generally makes decisions on the basis of 'feel' or 'facts'?  I know which one I'd back.

Try asking me that again in English and I'll try my best to respond.
*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
****Liverpool need a Grobbelaar save...or a Conti miss. They've got a Conti miss!
*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline My Original Name Please

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #90 on: September 3, 2007, 10:29:44 pm »
I like Mascherano
Libpoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #91 on: September 3, 2007, 10:39:18 pm »
This is based on my opinion not facts. How do you propose me to back up "Xabi is playing through a patch of bad form", with facts? Obviously you disagree with my opinion. Can you  counter it then. It goes without saying, I'm expecting you to rely on facts.

What I'd expect you to do is substantiate the "bad form" you allege he's in the middle of.  Presumably you think he's either started doing 'bad' things he didn't do previously, or stopped doing 'good' things he did previously, or some combination of both those elements. 

My counterfactual = 'Xabi is playing well', just as he has throughout his Liverpool career (while acknowledging he obviously plays better at some moments compared to others). 

I think there's plenty of evidence for my counterfactual - he's moving the ball well and controlling possession, evidenced both by his passing statistics and the areas others are receiving the ball in; he's supporting the ball well when incisions are made, as supported by the shooting opportunities he's had and the goals he's scored.  He's also made a number of important tackles and interceptions.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2007, 11:03:54 pm by Sissoko78 »

Offline MFletcher

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #92 on: September 3, 2007, 10:46:27 pm »
Just because Xabi isn't spraying sixty yard balls like in his first season, it doesn't mean he's playing poorly.

He's an important part of the team and his defensive play has greatly improved since his first year here.

Any combination of Mascherano/Gerrard/Alonso is the best in the league.
They don't care about Rafa,
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Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #93 on: September 3, 2007, 10:56:00 pm »
Shame you've fallen for the popular Sky sound bites of harping on about shots on target to defend your argument. If you've ever played the game you know that sometimes near misses like the one's Terry and Pizarro had (but weren't on target) are a more worthy and definitive statistic than the 'pass back to keeper' shot that Gerrard had early in the first half. According to Sky that chance had more chance of scoring than the two near misses Chelsea had.

The key word you use there is "sometimes".  I completely agree, "sometimes" statistics are deceptive.  However, shots and shots on target are "generally" indicative of the course of a game.  Statistical analysis bears out that shots on target are the best predictor of goalscoring ability, therefore shots on target is generally a good indicator of the course of a game (dectech have plenty of material on this if you are interested).

"According to Sky that chance had more chance of scoring than the two near misses Chelsea had." - who on Sky claimed that?  You are creating facts now mate, which is more desperate than merely offering unsubstantiated opinions.

Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #94 on: September 3, 2007, 11:01:09 pm »
As for your question; My question for you is: do you think Rafa generally makes decisions on the basis of 'feel' or 'facts'?  I know which one I'd back.

Try asking me that again in English and I'll try my best to respond.

I guess there was always a risk that an individual with little regard to facts would be unaware that I only post in English.

Seeing as you can't read properly, petal, "Do you think Rafa generally relies on evidence to make his decisions, or goes on gut feel?"

Offline Le Terrible

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #95 on: September 3, 2007, 11:11:04 pm »
Can I just point out to everyone who still goes on about the Rob Styles incident of robbing us a win that day, to give it a rest.

I agree our Sweetness.  But forgive me, while I add one more bellyache here.

I noticed a by product of the Styles decsion at Old Trafford in subsequent Tottenham match.  A foul by a Manc on Berbatov was almost certainly viewed as an accidental "collision" by the ref, no doubt relieved to see Berbatov play on and have a crack at goal while lying on his arse.  I have no doubt, but for Styles debacles that that ref would have given a penalty.

Anyway, let's concentrate on twatting Portsmouth.

Offline Silvanus

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #96 on: September 3, 2007, 11:18:04 pm »
Just because Xabi isn't spraying sixty yard balls like in his first season, it doesn't mean he's playing poorly.

He's an important part of the team and his defensive play has greatly improved since his first year here.

Any combination of Mascherano/Gerrard/Alonso is the best in the league.

Yep, i agree, you really can't go wrong with the midfield this year

Offline guest

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #97 on: September 3, 2007, 11:21:54 pm »

Offline MarkR

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #98 on: September 3, 2007, 11:26:49 pm »
Whatever he costs - pay it!
From his stunning debut against Sheffield last season his form has never failed to impress. His performance against Toulouse alone merited the entrance fee. On Saturday again he was peerless..........and finally Xabi after an indifferent year was back on form as was Momo against Toulouse.   Happy days.

Offline RedTerry

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #99 on: September 3, 2007, 11:31:47 pm »
Masch probably is one of, if not the best defensive midfielder in the world today and if it's true that we can get him for £10m at the end of his loan then that is an absolute bargain. Especially if the Manc's paid £16m (I think) for Carrick and £18m for Hargreaves to do the same job.
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Offline minusone

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #100 on: September 4, 2007, 12:02:55 am »
Gotta be loving it when your manager has to make a decision on whether or not to leave Alonso out.

Good times, good times...
Fired?? He should be shot! With shit, human shit!

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #101 on: September 4, 2007, 12:11:42 am »
What I'd expect you to do is substantiate the "bad form" you allege he's in the middle of.  Presumably you think he's either started doing 'bad' things he didn't do previously, or stopped doing 'good' things he did previously, or some combination of both those elements. 

My counterfactual = 'Xabi is playing well', just as he has throughout his Liverpool career (while acknowledging he obviously plays better at some moments compared to others). 

I think there's plenty of evidence for my counterfactual - he's moving the ball well and controlling possession, evidenced both by his passing statistics and the areas others are receiving the ball in; he's supporting the ball well when incisions are made, as supported by the shooting opportunities he's had and the goals he's scored.  He's also made a number of important tackles and interceptions.

I take it you have watched us for the last 4 years. I also take a huge leaf of faith and hope that you actually know something about the game. Because if you did you know that Xabi was sensational his first season here, scintillating his second season here and stagnated last season.  Evidenced by Rafa actually dropping him for some big games for the first time in his career with us. Chelsea in the semi might ring a bell.  That stagnation has continued into this season. The two goals against Derby does not cover over a Xabi playing at half the level we got accustomed to in his first two seasons here. I'm not saying Xabi is shit, I'm just saying the other 3, are ahead of him from what we've seen so far this season. Gerrard is ahead, and Momo won MOM against Sunderland and has been hugely impressive everytime I've seen him. In case you need me to map out the argument a little bit better so you can keep up; the argument is not Xabi is shit, the argument is that the other 3 are playing better than him at the moment. I'm not going to reel out statistics and other evidence for you here to try and convince you of my argument, because I generally don't waste time with people with a dim knowledge of football. Life is too short and too precious.
« Last Edit: September 4, 2007, 12:13:21 am by Sweet Silver Song »
*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
****Liverpool need a Grobbelaar save...or a Conti miss. They've got a Conti miss!
*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #102 on: September 4, 2007, 12:18:23 am »
The key word you use there is "sometimes".  I completely agree, "sometimes" statistics are deceptive.  However, shots and shots on target are "generally" indicative of the course of a game.  Statistical analysis bears out that shots on target are the best predictor of goalscoring ability, therefore shots on target is generally a good indicator of the course of a game (dectech have plenty of material on this if you are interested).

"According to Sky that chance had more chance of scoring than the two near misses Chelsea had." - who on Sky claimed that?  You are creating facts now mate, which is more desperate than merely offering unsubstantiated opinions.

Only people with a dim grasp of understanding football will cling onto boring stats about shots on targets and number of completed bollocks to try and "substantiate " their arguments. The rest of us just watch the game.
*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
****Liverpool need a Grobbelaar save...or a Conti miss. They've got a Conti miss!
*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Raftastic

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #103 on: September 4, 2007, 12:30:10 am »
he doesn't look like he wants to play for anyone except Liverpool to me

hopefully these words won't come back to haunt me but I'd say he looks as proud to play for us as he does for Argentina

he couldn't look more at home if he was driving cattle across the pampas
I had my doubts (not because of his performaces) but Saturday banished them in a second,you only had to look at the lads face after the final whistle he stood on the side lines whilst all the lads were whooping it up with the biggest look of satisfaction i've ever seen from a lad who was subbed (all be it for his ovation).

I may be wrong but i had it in my head that we signed him for an 18month loan with the option of 1st dibs for £18m written into the contract.But like i said i may be wrong.

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #104 on: September 4, 2007, 12:34:57 am »
I guess there was always a risk that an individual with little regard to facts would be unaware that I only post in English.

Seeing as you can't read properly, petal, "Do you think Rafa generally relies on evidence to make his decisions, or goes on gut feel?"

Your second attempt is a bit more easier to comprehend than your first attempt, and credit must be given where it's due. But I'm still struggling to work out how any of this is actually relevant to this thread, or indeed any of my posts. Can I also suggest that your argument (whatever that may be, and I'm still struggling here) could also be given slightly more credibility if you were more succinct, unambiguous and less vague about what exactly the point is. I find it helps in having a constructive and meaningful argument with someone to make this aspect of the case very clear from the outset.
*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
****Liverpool need a Grobbelaar save...or a Conti miss. They've got a Conti miss!
*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Redcap

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #105 on: September 4, 2007, 12:36:58 am »
I had my doubts (not because of his performaces) but Saturday banished them in a second,you only had to look at the lads face after the final whistle he stood on the side lines whilst all the lads were whooping it up with the biggest look of satisfaction i've ever seen from a lad who was subbed (all be it for his ovation).

I may be wrong but i had it in my head that we signed him for an 18month loan with the optio of 1st dibs for £18m written into the contract.But like i said i may be wrong.

That's what football manager 2007 tells us anyway ;)

Offline Raftastic

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #106 on: September 4, 2007, 12:40:52 am »
That's what football manager 2007 tells us anyway ;)

Wouldn't know chief i've got a life :)

Offline Raftastic

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #107 on: September 4, 2007, 12:44:14 am »
Wouldn't know chief i've got a life :)
That's what football manager 2007 tells us anyway ;)
I feel that i'd better point out that in no way was my previous post ment to be taken that i do not think you have a life just because you know what FM07 says about said topic,before we get into a biatch fest like sissoko and sliver guy are currently embroiled in.

« Last Edit: September 4, 2007, 12:48:54 am by Raftastic »

Offline Redcap

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #108 on: September 4, 2007, 12:51:06 am »
I feel that i'd better point out that in no way was my previous post ment to be taken that i do not think you have a life just because you know what FM07 says about said topic,before we get into a biatch fest like sissoko and sliver guy are currently embroiled in.



haha.. no offense taken. But yeah, that silver guy gets in lots of those. Has something to do with those words below his avatar I think. ;)

Offline Raftastic

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #109 on: September 4, 2007, 12:52:49 am »
haha.. no offense taken. But yeah, that silver guy gets in lots of those. Has something to do with those words below his avatar I think. ;)
Was taking the piss but now you've pointed that out i just feel foolish.

Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #110 on: September 4, 2007, 01:28:14 am »
I take it you have watched us for the last 4 years. I also take a huge leaf of faith and hope that you actually know something about the game. Because if you did you know that Xabi was sensational his first season here, scintillating his second season here and stagnated last season.

What tree does the leaf of faith come from?

by your own words, you've summarised Xabi's three seasons as "sensational  ...   scintillating .... stagnated".   Those with a clue would appreciate "stagnate" indicates a lack of progress, advance or development beyond a particular level.  So I'd agree, Xabi has "stagnated" at the "scintillating" level and that has continued on this season.



I'm not going to reel out statistics and other evidence for you here to try and convince you of my argument, because I generally don't waste time with people with a dim knowledge of football. Life is too short and too precious.

The real reason you aren't going to provide any evidence is there is no such evidence.  You'd love to shove some evidence of this sort down my throat.  Unfortunately, facts side with those of us who can muster logical arguments.  Too bad for you.

Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #111 on: September 4, 2007, 01:30:46 am »
Only people with a dim grasp of understanding football will cling onto boring stats about shots on targets and number of completed bollocks to try and "substantiate " their arguments. The rest of us just watch the game.

Only illogical clowns muster arguments without reference to the facts.  Maybe the clowns get it from spending too much time sitting under the tree that sheds leafs of faith.

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #112 on: September 4, 2007, 01:32:06 am »
Opinons are a terrible thing
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons."

@rednich85

Offline The Infamous_LFC

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #113 on: September 4, 2007, 01:35:59 am »
Mascherano is a must buy if he isn't signed then we will be a weaker side and the team that gets him has got the best holding player in world football and a player that is better than any other holding player the premiership has ever seen including the likes or Makelele and is better than other players such as Roy Keane and Vieira.

I actually think against big clubs he is a more important component than Gerrard and Alonso.

I hope to see him with us for the next 8 years atleast with him becoming captain after Steven.

Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #114 on: September 4, 2007, 01:40:34 am »
Your second attempt is a bit more easier to comprehend than your first attempt, and credit must be given where it's due. But I'm still struggling to work out how any of this is actually relevant to this thread, or indeed any of my posts. Can I also suggest that your argument (whatever that may be, and I'm still struggling here) could also be given slightly more credibility if you were more succinct, unambiguous and less vague about what exactly the point is. I find it helps in having a constructive and meaningful argument with someone to make this aspect of the case very clear from the outset.

I've made the point repeatedly and clearly.  Because I'm generous I'll make an allowance for the seeming failures in your cognition and point it out for you:

Comedy mate - an array of wild claims with no reference to facts: 

"the pattern of the game at that juncture, was Chelsea were getting more and more dangerous",

"Xabi was in my opinion, and still, is the worst of the  4 'best midfielders' currently.",

"Masch is ahead of him. What Xabi gives us in terms of attacking initiative and passing, Masch more than compensates in terms of defensive cover".

Can you offer some facts to substantiate that?  There seems to be a lot against what you claim and little for.


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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #115 on: September 4, 2007, 06:30:06 am »
Just because Xabi isn't spraying sixty yard balls like in his first season, it doesn't mean he's playing poorly.

He's an important part of the team and his defensive play has greatly improved since his first year here.

Any combination of Mascherano/Gerrard/Alonso is the best in the league.

Too right.  Mascherano is a must buy - too good to miss, but this does not need at the expense of Alonso.  They are different players and offer different qualities.

Momo no way better than Alonso.  Momo has improved this season and has his purpose but the overall package is still some way off those three.

For the record, never thought Alonso was that bad last season.  Not brilliant but he played well enough and consistently after finding his feet.

Offline fredmilne

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #116 on: September 4, 2007, 09:33:04 am »
Evidenced by Rafa actually dropping him for some big games for the first time in his career with us. Chelsea in the semi might ring a bell.
For some big games, read one. 

Why does the team selection for that game assume particular importance?  How about the Champions League final in Athens, the season opener at Villa, the game against Chelsea - all big games, all of which Alonso started.

Offline Sissoko78

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #117 on: September 4, 2007, 10:04:37 am »
For some big games, read one. 

Why does the team selection for that game assume particular importance?  How about the Champions League final in Athens, the season opener at Villa, the game against Chelsea - all big games, all of which Alonso started.

Exactly mate, good point.

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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #118 on: September 4, 2007, 10:15:56 am »
For some big games, read one. 

Why does the team selection for that game assume particular importance?  How about the Champions League final in Athens, the season opener at Villa, the game against Chelsea - all big games, all of which Alonso started.
Exactly mate, good point.

Kids, can I suggest you both spend a little time reading through the posts about Alonso back in April this year.  You'll get all the stats you need about assists, completed passes and all that bollocks, because some of the posters have gone to the trouble of doing that. Hopefully, that will assist you enormously in understanding that many on here had a concern with Xabi's form for not only that period in our season, but the season as a whole. You're welcome to PM me if you need any assistance in understanding any of the terminology or finer nuances if it seems overwhelming. 'll do my best to assist.  Here's the link.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=172983.0

As for the comment about whether Xabi being dropped for the Chelsea game not being significant. Well, it wouldn't be significant if it were not for the fact that up until then, Rafa had played Alonso every big game as long as he was fit and available. That did not apply (for the first time ever) to the Chelsea semi. Some of us who watch the game know that to be significant. And don't need the help of Sky Match Facts to help us form an opinion.

*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
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Re: Javier Mascherano
« Reply #119 on: September 4, 2007, 10:57:01 am »
I can't say whether you're a prick or no but you're definitely condescending.
M'eh