Topic: Wrestling Thread (AEW, NJPW, WWE, etc) (*)

[gazzalfc]

The use of each sides roster really is on opposite ends of the spectrum

Brawn Stroman on Monday was the first time a WWE wrestler completed a singles, tag team and handicap match in one show.

WWE's reliance on the same core wrestlers is really dragging their product down. They have so many on their other shows that they can start bringing guys through. So many women stuck in NXT whilst we have to watch another tag match where everyone tries to carry Nia Jax through the match.

They technically have more guys on their roster than AEW

Whilst AEW has so many factions, each with managers that it's hard to know who is with who, who is face or heel etc.

[Riquende]

Whilst AEW has so many factions, each with managers that it's hard to know who is with who, who is face or heel, etc.

For a long time in AEW, the best indicator of face or heel was the tunnel they emerged from (except Cody with his 'Prince of Pro Wrestling' ascension through the centre gates).

I like that they seem to be upsetting that dynamic now, the members of Death Triangle appearing from the 'face' entrance despite outright heel actions vs Best Friends recently.

'Over factioning' is definitely something that appeals to some but not to others. I saw someone the other day had gone down the mens' roster and picked out any wrestlers who have no natural allies (other faction members, tag partners, manager/valets or even just a good on-screen mate) and found one - Christian Cage, who has been there about 10 minutes. Potentially Miro as well if he is splitting with Kip and not developing it into some sort of abusive friendship role.

Personally, I like that everyone on the roster is interlinked somehow to others as it allows you an easy way to bring other people into storylines. More casual fans though (who only watch Dynamite rather than all the YT shows - essentially you need to watch Elevation, Dark and Being the Elite, and Sammy Geuvara's vlog doesn't hurt either) might not be able to tell quite why these dudes are suddenly running out to help, or why something is such a betrayal etc.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

So apparently Daniel Bryan's contract ran out last Friday and he is gone. I don't know what that means and what is next; he is 40 with a young family and generally quite smart, but wrestling is his life.

I can see him settling down out of wrestling now, but I can also see him going somewhere else, but on a lighter schedule so he can be more with his kids and less travelling

[tubby]

As much as I'd love to see him in AEW with a contract that lets him wrestle elsewhere like Mox has... I just can't see him giving up such a cushy little position in WWE.  Think the time for him to move was his previous contract, when they suddenly managed to clear him to wrestle when it was nearly up.

[gazzalfc]

He could go back to ROH...

CM Punk, Samoa Joe and Dragon all free agents

*What year is it!!!!'

[Stockholm Syndrome]

As much as I'd love to see him in AEW with a contract that lets him wrestle elsewhere like Mox has... I just can't see him giving up such a cushy little position in WWE.  Think the time for him to move was his previous contract, when they suddenly managed to clear him to wrestle when it was nearly up.

But his contract is over, he obviously could re-sign with them but he hasn't yet and now is a free agent so to speak. I wouldn't be shocked if he takes an ambassador or office job, but then I can't see him moving to Florida for the PC or Connecticut.

I honestly don't know what he will do but I feel whatever it is her won't travel as much as now back and forth like he did with the current tapings

[gazzalfc]

You can tell when there's not been much blood in wrestling for a while because when they do start blading again they have no idea how to do it and end up pissing blood out of their foreheads.

Makes it look like the chicken wire cage is made out of barbed wire

MJF is one hell of a talent AEW have got. He's a great promo

Only problem I have with last night's match is they went through all of that for a match on free TV.

[OsirisMVZ]

Only problem I have with last night's match is they went through all of that for a match on free TV.

Apparently there was a million commercials.

I watched it earlier this morning and thought it was good! Shame about the highspot at the end but along with the "exploding ring" thats something they clearly they need to work on as a company.

[tubby]

Thought it started really well and had some very nice spots but they dragged it out way too long and the whole point of war games is that you can't escape.

Jericho falling onto some pillows at the end was lame as hell.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

I didn't even think the fall was as bad as the exploding ring. Every big spot like that has a crash mat, just you need to learn how to smoke and mirror it with long camera shots, or a blocked landing so you can't see the pad, and just see a mangle wrecked landing site

Still I thought it was an excellent match and the fall didn't distract from it (unlike the explosion). It was a 5/10 finish in a match which was still an 8 or 9/10.

Having said that, it is a stark contrast to other spots in the show like Darby getting thrown down a set of concrete stairs which looked pretty scary. I know one is a 50 year old and the other is Darby who is a But mental with these things, but still.

[John_P]

My current thought is that sort of match should've been the one to end the feud not the in ring starting point. Maybe before the crowds are fully back they'll do another Stadium Stampede Match.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

My current thought is that sort of match should've been the one to end the feud not the in ring starting point. Maybe before the crowds are fully back they'll do another Stadium Stampede Match.

The only way I can see them progressing this feud from here effectively is if you have MJF retire Jericho for Mega heat. Turn Jericho more into a manager/commentator.

Obvious problem with that is, for better or worse, Jericho is still a draw, especially for  weekly TV.

MJF should be champion before the end of this year and run through a Pinnacle reign of terror for like a year.

Also with the right matches/grooming, Wardlow could be a big talent. Great look, athletic, not too old. With Prime Vince booking in around 2003/04 he could have been another Batista (not that he will be one now, just he has all the building blocks to have been that type of guy back in the day)

[tubby]

MJF should be champion before the end of this year and run through a Pinnacle reign of terror for like a year.

Can't see anyone other than Page taking the belt off Kenny.  I expect there'll be a bunch of mini-feuds off the back of this, they'll spread it out a bit instead of doing 5 vs 5 matches.

Let Jericho see out his contract and then try and get him on commentary and out of the ring.  Ideally replacing JR.

[OsirisMVZ]

MJF should be champion before the end of this year and run through a Pinnacle reign of terror for like a year.

They definitely need Hangman to be the one who dethrones Omega, but I think MJF winning it from Hangman within a week (maybe even same night MITB-style) would help both get over soooo much.

They then get to spend 2022 with MJF as World Champ in great matches with other younger homegrown guys like Hangman, Darby, Jungle Boy. Elevate them all to top of the card before Dynamite is 3 years old.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Oh next in line will definitely be Page, but I say within 2 months or so have MJF beat him for big heat. Turn that into the longstanding feud for a while - dick privalege kid heel and good nice country boy babyface.

The only other person I would say other than Page would be Darby as a shock result. Although that would only work if Omega continues his Belt collector gimmick, and have him come after the TNT title (with Darby continuing to have big and good main events with that title). Give Darby the shock win and have him drop not long after. Of course, Darby may drop next week so oh well.

[tubby]

Yeah Darby is getting brutalised by Miro next week, that looks nailed on.  He's not 100% and Miro has made it clear he wants a belt, can't see anything other than him winning the TNT title.

[Samie]

What the fuck is WrestleMania Backlash? Why not just call it as its' been known all this time "Backlash"?

[OsirisMVZ]

Clearly the name wasn't as obvious for some of the viewers now

[Kopout]

So apparently Daniel Bryan's contract ran out last Friday and he is gone. I don't know what that means and what is next; he is 40 with a young family and generally quite smart, but wrestling is his life.

I can see him settling down out of wrestling now, but I can also see him going somewhere else, but on a lighter schedule so he can be more with his kids and less travelling

what kinda schedule these wwe wrestlers had during pandemic? just tv shows isn't it?

[Riquende]

It's frustrating that AEW don't nail the landing to otherwise excellent main events - all Revolution needed was a believable explosion, and now this, which for me failed on 3 levels - first, there should have been more made of the 'surrender' rather than just a long shot of MJF and Sammy barely audibly shouting at each other. Just stick a camera on Sammy's face (he was out of the cage at that point) and highlight the conflict as he's forced to admit defeat. Then post match, MJF needed just a bit more than the gentle shove off the top of the cage. Sparta-style kick, or a punch, or anything, really. Have him fake out walking away then turn and nail Jericho with the ring, cue fall.

Lastly, and most importantly, don't let the camera see the big air bed or the fact that the steel plates are just thin grey-painted wood! Have a low camera tracking Jericho's fall and imply the impact. Last week, the camera was lined up in such a way that you could clearly see Cody waiting for QT to open the bus door. You'd think any other angle, of the 359 others, would have served better there.

These are all just very simple production mistakes rather than shortcomings of the booking or talent but they keep bringing AEW's marquee events down from a solid A to a B and generates the wrong sort of buzz... and it's all so preventable.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

AEW was the number one watched television program last night.

[XabiArt]

Lots of chat about AEW in here.

Is it actually worth watching? And if so where would one accidentally find it online? I thought it was just backyard wrestling with a fat chris Jericho

[Riquende]

Lots of chat about AEW in here.

Is it actually worth watching? And if so where would one accidentally find it online? I thought it was just backyard wrestling with a fat chris Jericho

I just DL it each week on a Thursday morning from usual sources. The two legit ways to see it in the UK are one of the ITV channels late on a Friday night (cuts out the ad break footage and bounces around the timeslots, sometimes begining close to midnight) or Fite TV (I think it's £5 per month, you can stream it live and you'll see the action during the ads). I'm sure there must be sites with less than legal streams knocking about but I've no need of them.

I've watched every show they've done since their inception (PPVs, Dynamite, Dark and now Elevation) so my take is yes, it's worth watching. I wasn't an existing WWE viewer so I can't offer any comparison there but it's managed to pull me back into wrestling for the first time in about 20 years. I'm not going to wax lyrical now about everything it does right, but they've got a solid roster up and down the card so even if there's something not working for you at the moment some other storyline will be going on. They do have some legacy talent in there but in general they're in feuds that are obviously designed to elevate the best young talent who they're working with - many of whom have grafted on the indies but need that bit of a rub to get more name recognition.

[Riquende]

Oh next in line will definitely be Page, but I say within 2 months or so have MJF beat him for big heat. Turn that into the longstanding feud for a while - dick privalege kid heel and good nice country boy babyface.

It's great as well because, although it hasn't really come up recently, MJF and Hangman had a lot of encounters early in AEW - they were the two final guys in the BR to determine the inaugural title match, were both involved in a multiman match at one of the pre-Dynamite shows and wrestled for the first diamond ring. I thought at the time they had pretty good chemistry but they've gone separate ways since. Resuming hostilities at the business end of the card would be fantastic.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

what kinda schedule these wwe wrestlers had during pandemic? just tv shows isn't it?

It is but for a long while that meant Bryan had to fly out early and quarantine each week he was on, I think it was particular because he has some condition which makes him higher risk to COVID.

 That and it is a live show each week so he is flying each week for this, compared to say AEW which tapes in bulk, and wrestlers not living in Florida turn up for short periods then go home - PAC does a bunch of matches in one taping a month then goes back home in Newcastle until the next tapings he is needed (so one taping a month or every other month)

Either that or just in general go somewhere where he is not a weekly attraction as he is now, he is older with a young family I don't think it is in him

[Stockholm Syndrome]

It's great as well because, although it hasn't really come up recently, MJF and Hangman had a lot of encounters early in AEW - they were the two final guys in the BR to determine the inaugural title match, were both involved in a multiman match at one of the pre-Dynamite shows and wrestled for the first diamond ring. I thought at the time they had pretty good chemistry but they've gone separate ways since. Resuming hostilities at the business end of the card would be fantastic.

Yep exactly. They are the two biggest young stars in the company, they are so obviously foils against each other. It is always felt like that is going to be the big rivalry in the company in the future. There would always be other feuds and other enemies, other stars and other champs (Darby being someone I think should be champ as well in the relative near future, in the next 2 years or so), but that's the really big feud behind it all, Hangman vs MJF

A bit like in NJPW where Okada was the longest champ, he had lots of rivals and challengers, but due to the build and who were the big stars in the company, it always kinda felt like the big rivalry was him and Omega, which hopefully they can revisit since it hasn't truly felt like they got to finish.

AEW was the number one watched television program last night.

It's a great job, and it is fell perfectly for the show too. It's number 1 on cable and highly viewed, for a show designed to make MJF look like a star. As I said above he should be champ soon, so him being portrayed as a star to a relatively large audience is a big plus.

[gazzalfc]

Lots of chat about AEW in here.

Is it actually worth watching? And if so where would one accidentally find it online? I thought it was just backyard wrestling with a fat chris Jericho

AEW splits people right down the middle. Its either garbage, backyard wrestling and basically Impact with a bigger budget or its the future of wrestling that can be the best competition WWE has had since the Monday night wars.

In terms of what they get right, they have got a TV deal that will keep them going for years and a backer in Tony Kahn that works for their current system of buying in .

They rely less on scripted promos and more on matches booked by committee rather than the filter of one guy (for better or for worse). They have trust in their process and dont push and drop nearly as badly as WWE do with their talent. Their matches tend to be more botch filled but are far apart from the WWE cookie cutter style.

But they do tend to book in the immediate short term for ratings. Their ratings ebb and flow like a rollercoaster. They came #1 in the cable ratings in the 18-49 demo which is incredible. But there is no way next weeks will be similar. Raw whilst being shite is consistent and for FOX and USA that is good as advertisers want consistent viewership.

There is no way WWE would book the equivalent of a Hell in a cell/elimination chamber match for a Monday night RAW. Thursday nights 'Blood and guts' match should have been a PPV event. Not just because of money. Those guys put themselves through a huge match which involved blading, chair shots, cage climbs and a throw off the top of the cage and it was all free. That suddenly becomes the bar you expect from a free TV show.

The other part of AEW is the 'smart marks' aspect. You have Dave Meltzer singing their praises every chance he gets. Indi darlings and WWE rejects attempting to make every a 5* match with no real build to the long term.

It really is the Anti-WWE but not necessarily for the better.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Lots of chat about AEW in here.

Is it actually worth watching? And if so where would one accidentally find it online? I thought it was just backyard wrestling with a fat chris Jericho

I obviously think it is quite good, but afair bit of it is a product of modern US wrestling so it may not be to everyone's tastes.

The weekly shows have an air of old WCW in some aspects of booking, but also can be quite indierific. There are a lot of factions which are expanded on the YouTube shows so you either have to follow or just trust the process, it's not too hard but it can put people off.

The quality of the shows week to week can vary from excellent all round, to really bad, to kinda a train wreck but entertaining. It's very rarely dull, but not always great.

It also has a fair few wheels spinning at once and a fair few pushed at once, which doesn't always make the weekly shows - Death Triangle for example are a pretty over act but aren't always prominent each week. Everyone gets big moments/matches at least once every 3 or so weeks, but if you are a fan of Orange Cassidy for example,he may not star every week.

Matches, as gazza rightly said, are more botch filled but not the usual cookie cutter style in WWE, again I come back to what I said before, it is rarely boring if not always the best. If you are fine with a few mistakes here and there, and a few matches which fall a bit flat, for good and inventive story in I'd say 60 to 70% of your matches, then there you go.

They do make mistakes with production which they are growing in to, but it is there right now. The exploding ring and this week's pad fall being 2 examples (both unfortunately endings to otherwise stellar matches).

I don't mind as much the big weekly shows over PPV's. These shows tend to become mini PPV's and you only have 4 actual PPV's a year. Maybe when they get more established they can turn these shoes into PPV but for now it ain't too bad IMHO.

The ratings point is a fair one although I would say now since NXT moved AEW is getting a relatively consistent 1.1 million and top 5 in cable, only week out of 4 it dropped out is with the president's speech to congress on the other channel.

The thing I must say I like most about them is a lot of the stuff is just really fun. Like Stadium Stampede, Best Friends Parking Lot Brawl, the Jacksonville Street Fight, Arcade Anarchy, even Baker/Rosa lights out and Blood & Guts this week in a brutal way. The matches are fun, kinda silly but it's wrestling it is a silly business, and USUALLY the faces come out looking strong or smart, which is a big difference from WWE where most are weak or stupid until the very end of the feud.

BUT it definitely isn't for everyone

[tubby]

Lots of chat about AEW in here.

Is it actually worth watching? And if so where would one accidentally find it online? I thought it was just backyard wrestling with a fat chris Jericho

It's a halfway point between the indies and WWE at the moment.  There's more nods to the fact that it's a work and in general, the moves in-ring are nuttier than you'd see in WWE, but they're still trying to get into a proper rhythm.  They've had some excellent matches and some really great moments, but like others have said, they've also ballsed up a few things and missed the mark in important moments.  But it's a young company and it'll take time.

[XabiArt]

Well now I'm intrigued. Is it worth watching all the PPVs? I want to watch Dustin and cody from all in, I think it was called.

[OsirisMVZ]

Well now I'm intrigued. Is it worth watching all the PPVs? I want to watch Dustin and cody from all in, I think it was called.

That was Double or Nothing 2019! Really good show. All the PPVs are pretty good and few & far between to let things breath. Shouldn't take you too long to catch up.

[Riquende]

Well now I'm intrigued. Is it worth watching all the PPVs? I want to watch Dustin and cody from all in, I think it was called.

I'm biased but yeah, go for it.

All In was the the independent show they put on a few years ago that led to the discussions that formed AEW. Double or Nothing 2019 was AEW's first proper show, and featured Cody/Dustin. It also featured a Battle Royal to determine one of the challengers in their first title match, and the main event was Kenny Omega/Jericho for the other spot.

As they were yet to have a weekly show, summer of 2019 saw a couple of free shows that streamed online - Fyter Fest and Fight for the Fallen. There's some good stuff in each but a lot of talent were still getting their characters down and the lack of ongoing narrative didn't help. They ended the summer with All Out which crowned the first champion.

In October Dynamite started. It was a little rough at first and didn't feature much in the way of promos (I guess the indie guys weren't used to speaking in front of so many people/on TV and the ex-WWE were used to scriptwriters). Jericho and Cody carried a lot of those early shows in terms of character, but the weekly show meant they could finally do proper builds towards PPVs which helped a lot. Full Gear rounded out 2019 in November-ish.

As AEW only do 4 proper PPVs per year, they introduced in January 2020 the idea of special named episodes of Dynamite. If you're planning a potted history tour of AEW then I'd definitely include these as they come across as 2 hour PPVs in their own right and include various gimmick matches and also title changes (I believe no title has changed hands outside of a PPV or named Dynamite). January 2020 had Bash at the Beach (a second week of which took place on the Jericho cruise). There wasn't one in Spring due to the pandemic affecting everything but Fyter Fest and Fight for the Fallen returned in the summer, and a special 'Winter is Coming' episode happened in December. They've carried on with them in 2021 (including this week's Blood and Guts).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All_Elite_Wrestling_pay-per-view_events

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AEW_Dynamite_special_episodes I wouldn't consider all of these worth it as it includes things like anniversary shows)

As well as that there are a couple of matches from 'normal' Dynamites that are well worth a watch - Pac vs Kenny Omega's 30-minute Iron Man match from the episode immediately before Revolution, the parking lot brawl between Best Friends and Santana/Ortiz and more recently Arcade Anarchy between Best Friends and Miro/Kip Sabian spring to mind. I didn't know what to expect from that one but it blew me away with the story it told and the twists involved.

You're just shy of 2 entire years behind so there's a lot to catch up on!

[XabiArt]

Blimey, well its exciting to have something to get my teeth into. I'm currently on the network going through raw smackdown and ppvs from 2002, (sunmerslams card was unreal) it was a time where I dipped out from wrestling so it's nice to go back, the smackdowns are absolutely brilliant from this period but I will defo start AEW soon.

[LiamG]

Lots of chat about AEW in here.

Is it actually worth watching? And if so where would one accidentally find it online? I thought it was just backyard wrestling with a fat chris Jericho

i watched it a couple of times now and turned it off after 10minutes, but then i haven't watched wrestling properly since i was a teenager

[Stockholm Syndrome]

There are few special shows too to look out for, and a few matches too.

I'd say the street fight at the Jacksonville Jaguars stadium (Sammy Guevara and Jericho vs Matt Hardy and Kenny Omega). Best Friends vs Santana and Ortiz parking lot brawl, Brodie Lee vs Cody Rhodes 1, and then the dog collar match. Arcade Anarchy was good too.

In terms of special shows there are a few and I can't remember them all but I do remember Winter is Coming, St Patrick's Day one (which had Rosa vs Baker lights out) and Blood and Guts just last week,and this coming week.

Some of the matches are quite goofy and silly, but always pretty inventive and telling of a story. It ain't a perfect product but it is, IMHO, a lot of fun

Also a warning - All Out 2020 was overall a bad show, with a decent main event

[Riquende]

i watched it a couple of times now and turned it off after 10minutes, but then i haven't watched wrestling properly since i was a teenager

Yeah, without following the narratives I think it's difficult to get into watching a wrestling promotion's output as some of it just won't make sense. I gave up watching WWE in 2000. A good few years later I had a job at Toys R Us and saw the wrestling figures. Unfamiliar non-entities with names like Brock Lesnar and John Cena didn't tempt me back.

A mate of mine did occasionally bring up some new development but I never cared. It wasn't until he told me about this whole new company that sprang to life from a bet that an indie show could do 10k tickets that I was interested. And in fact, if I didn't have a 4 hour train journey to Edinburgh at the time then I may never have given AEW the time of day.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Lots of chat about AEW in here.

Is it actually worth watching? And if so where would one accidentally find it online? I thought it was just backyard wrestling with a fat chris Jericho

Short answer is yes.

The storylines make sense for the most part, unlike WWE, they know their core audience and don't try to appease to everyone. My dad, who got stuck in with me for a while because of a travel issue, used to watch it with me and by the end he became invested in characters like Omega, MJF and Guevarra and he HATED wrestling before.

They are the first company who got me hooked on their product in at least 15 years and I haven't felt this bad when I miss an episode of a wrestling show since 2004.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Dynamite this week was odd - some of the best stuff mixed with some of the worst stuff they have to offer.

Moxley/Nagata was great in my book, as was Miro/Darby. PAC/Orange had a fucked WWE finish which apparently was an audible because Orange was hurt (apparently original plan was time limit draw for a 3 way). Cody's 'Murica promo was shite, but I hope they keep pushing Ogogo. Bucks vs SCU was really good I felt but the "TO THE BACK!" ending was WCW/TNA tier.

I saw someone on Twitter describe it as the worst show they have seen that had 3 four star or more matches on it, and it is a good way of putting it.

I've said it before but AEW always has a show every 3 weeks or so which is like it's on crack. It had issues but it wasn't dull, and what was good was great.


Also Stadium Stampede announced for Double or Nothing, which seems to be a mainstay for Double or Nothing now. Hope it is as good as the last one, although it will be odd doing one for a quite serious feud.

[tubby]

I'm so done with Jericho at this point.  He was great for the company at the start, but they need to stop indulging him and the sooner he retires from wrestling and moves into commentating, the better.

[OsirisMVZ]

Is Stadium Stampede another Pinnacle v Inner Circle match? Feels a bit too soon to do another multi-man gimmick match, I'd have thought they left that for Fyter Fest or something.