Topic: Mohamed Salah - Best in the World *

[Haggis36]

Jamie vardy was 33 when he produced  23 pl gls for leicester, then got an more than admirable 15 pl gls aged 35,  2 yrs later, when they finished 8th

I'd question whether he would have got into a City/Liverpool team, but hard to argue with that number of goals, so I'm willing to put that in the column - we have one example.

Vardy is a bit of weird one though, as he didn't come to professional football until he was like 25 iirc? By the end of that season in which he won the golden boot, he'd played 40% less minutes of football than Salah has accumulated over the years, and even now at 37 he's played a lot less than a 31 year-old Salah, by about 20%. But it's true, he held his pace pretty well into his 30s. Problem is, Salah's has already visibly declined - you can debate the extent, but I'm not sure anyone can argue he's still amongst the fastest players in the league.

[Draex]

Vardy was fuelled by crystal meth.

[markmywords]

I'd question whether he would have got into a City/Liverpool team, but hard to argue with that number of goals, so I'm willing to put that in the column - we have one example.

Vardy is a bit of weird one though, as he didn't come to professional football until he was like 25 iirc? By the end of that season in which he won the golden boot, he'd played 40% less minutes of football than Salah has accumulated over the years, and even now at 37 he's played a lot less than a 31 year-old Salah, by about 20%. But it's true, he held his pace pretty well into his 30s. Problem is, Salah's has already visibly declined - you can debate the extent, but I'm not sure anyone can argue he's still amongst the fastest players in the league.

Whilst he has lost pace, it hasn't seemingly affected his output this season.

In fact his creative numbers are not only higher than ever, but I've never seen a player who doesn't take set pieces register a expected assist figure per game, as high as Salah's currently is.

  His form has dropped in the last few games, as typically happens in the last 10 games of a season for Salah, this has been the case for him for over 5 yrs, it stings now as we don't have the likes of mane and co to make up for Salah's usual late season slowdown.  But this is due to game volume rather than age, as the only season in the last 5/6 that he finished strong was last yr, when he had a month off, due to Egypt not being at the WC.  We need to manage his minutes somewhat going forwards, he should be starting perhaps 3 games in 4 going into next season.

I would recommend seeing how he performs at the start of next yr and then offering a 1/2 extension, if he is performing like he has this season

[Coolie High]

Whilst he has lost pace, it hasn't seemingly affected his output this season.

In fact his creative numbers are not only higher than ever, but I've never seen a player who doesn't take set pieces register a expected assist figure per game, as high as Salah's currently is.

  His form has dropped in the last few games, as typically happens in the last 10 games of a season for Salah, this has been the case for him for over 5 yrs, it stings now as we don't have the likes of mane and co to make up for Salah's usual late season slowdown.  But this is due to game volume rather than age, as the only season in the last 5/6 that he finished strong was last yr, when he had a month off, due to Egypt not being at the WC.  We need to manage his minutes somewhat going forwards, he should be starting perhaps 3 games in 4 going into next season.

I would recommend seeing how he performs at the start of next yr and then offering a 1/2 extension, if he is performing like he has this season

Right what’s funny is people acting like the bad stretch of form at the end of the season is a new thing, it’s perplexing, it’s happened nearly every season. Also it was just a few weeks ago against Brentford he was looking his best with a goal and assist before getting injured again, he came on against City and produced one of the passes of the season for Diaz.

Do people not know how to deduce bad form and a steady decline in ability? For whatever he’s lost in dribbling and lightening pace he has gained in play making and passing so from my perspective any decline is minimal overall.

[Haggis36]

Whilst he has lost pace, it hasn't seemingly affected his output this season.

In fact his creative numbers are not only higher than ever, but I've never seen a player who doesn't take set pieces register a expected assist figure per game, as high as Salah's currently is.

  His form has dropped in the last few games, as typically happens in the last 10 games of a season for Salah, this has been the case for him for over 5 yrs, it stings now as we don't have the likes of mane and co to make up for Salah's usual late season slowdown.  But this is due to game volume rather than age, as the only season in the last 5/6 that he finished strong was last yr, when he had a month off, due to Egypt not being at the WC.  We need to manage his minutes somewhat going forwards, he should be starting perhaps 3 games in 4 going into next season.

I would recommend seeing how he performs at the start of next yr and then offering a 1/2 extension, if he is performing like he has this season

Ronaldo's declining physicality didn't enormously impact his output either, but it did affect how useful he was to his teams, and whilst he was Utd's top scorer in the one full season he was there, they were having to massively compromise for him to their overall detriment. Now I'm not trying to say that's the case for Salah at all, but just pointing out individual stats don't necessarily tell the whole story of how well a player is benefitting their team. As you say though, Salah has adapted his game superbly to become a bit more of a playmaker, which it feels like we've not been able to rountinely make use of since he returned from injury (I think this is a set-up issue as much as his own bad form) - hopefully whatever set-up we have next season gives him the platform to do more of that, and gets him between the width of the posts, rather than asking him to beat defenders 1vs1 from deep/out wide, which he doesn't excel at anymore.

I don't actually disagree with your suggestion, seeing how he gets on over the course of next season and offering a short extension I think would probably be in our best interests. However he's going to be allowed to sign a pre-contact in January and you can bet that teams will be in his ear now, and whilst the above approach is most prudent for us, it's probably not going to make him feel overly loved or valued and the stats boyz in charge are going to approach it with less sentimentality than Klopp would - if PSG start flashing their knickers and saying we'll give you Mbappe's wages whilst we're sitting around saying "well let's see how you perform over the season, and then we'll maybe offer you an extension on massively reduced terms" then I can only see that going one way. There's zero chance we offer him a new two year extension in the next 6 months on his current wage, nor should we (especially if as you suggest, and as I think is correct, he's going to start playing less football for us - it would distort the wage structure). We're not the only party who gets to make decisions here, and arguably at this stage Salah holds most of the cards - if he fancies plying his trade or getting more money elsewhere then he will. He might not even want to stick around for a rebuild, he might not get on with the new manager, he might want to try a new league where silverware is more assured. Seems to be a lot of assumption of, we offer him extension = he stays more years, and that might not even be the case - he could have already made his mind up to run his contract down.

Do people not know how to deduce bad form and a steady decline in ability? For whatever he’s lost in dribbling and lightening pace he has gained in play making and passing so from my perspective any decline is minimal overall.

It's been the subject of debate by others on here sure, but again, that's not what you and I are debating. You're talking about offering him a multi-year extension, and if we do that the decision probably has to be made in the next 6 months or he'll sign a pre-agreement elsewhere. These (multi-million pound) contract decisions are not based on just his form/ability now, they're based on what it will be in 2 years time - which is a guess. Maybe you're right, and he's the best player in the league until 35 - I'd love it. Maybe we commit nearly £40m to a 2 year extension, on top of the £20m he already has left on his contract, and he comes back for pre-season in 2025 and falls off the proverbial cliff like so many players of that age do. Either of those things could happen, or it could be somewhere in the middle, and we have no idea which it will be - I totally accept that. But probability matters to the people making these incredibly significant business decisions, and the probability is that even if he hasn't declined much yet, he will over the next year or two. You can't cheat Father Time.

[Black Bull Nova]

Right, but the debate you seem to want to have is should we spend £350k a week to extend Salah until he is 34-35. Or let's say £200k a week, assuming he's willing to drop his salary by over a third. His level last year, or his level this year, has no real bearing on his level in 1/2/3 years time - pretty much the only thing that has a bearing is his age, and that's not subjective nor can you argue it - 99% of players are well past their best by 33/34. You can't find me single example of someone who was still elite in this league at 33/34 and only a handful in slower, weaker leagues - certainly as far as recent history goes.

The point around Fimino and Fabinho, is that yes there were signs of declining physicality (which is 100% true of Salah, btw) but they dropped off a cliff very suddenly. I mean we went from saying Fabinho was one of the best #6s in the world to saying he was absolutely finished in the space of less 6 months - the point is those are the kind of drop offs that can happen at this age. How Salah was playing before Christmas is irrelevant to how he'll be playing in 2026.

We're clearly not gonna agree and it's probably the last post I'm gonna make in this particular debate because honestly, it's almost certainly a moot point - we won't be renewing his contract regardless of what you or I think. He'll either stay for one more year and then leave on a free (most likely), or we'll look to sell him this summer.

Especially if he wants to go himself, we are definitely not a club that hangs on to players who wish to leave, and especially if that costs us.

[Clint Eastwood]

I think his days as a winger in a set up like ours is numbered - he seems pretty one-dimensional now that his pace has dwindled. You have to respect how he's gradually adapted his game to account for it, but he seems like someone who should be moving more centrally. I'd love to see what he can do as a CF.

[Historical Fool]

Ronaldo wasn’t as creative as Salah, at United he wasn’t one of the better final third  playmakers in the league. Salah is a duel threat even if he lacks a bit of pace like before, you can only compare him to a Ronaldo at Madrid not at United.

For me with Salah the duel threat has reduced somewhat in recent years. Like all elite wingers and like Ronaldo even at United he retains the skill to beat players on the dribble, but that bit of explosiveness in the follow through is just a little bit muted due to age.

Ronaldo retained his aerial duel prowess until late in his career. Not sure if Salah is the same? I don’t have easy access to header won stats so will have to rely on Jack for that …

[jepovic]

Ronaldo transformed himself into a different player in the later years, just like Gerrard did, and I think Salah will also have to do that.

I'm not sure how this version of Salah fits into how we play, but that doesnt matter much because we will get a new manager and probably change the way we play anyway.

[killer-heels]

Dont see why he needs a bit of a transformation, he probably will drift further infield as an attacking midfielder/forward who plays off a striker. Could work in that Amorim system which appears to employ two attacking midfielders rather than wingers.

[decosabute]

I think Salah had successfully started to transform into someone who was as much of a creator as scorer - his first half of the season was superb and he was more of an all-rounder than he used to be. I don't doubt that Salah has the football brain to adapt to his reduced explosiveness.

What's worrying though, is the period since his injury re-occurrence. He doesn't just look slow - he looks weak, physically-bullied, indecisive and his finishing is abysmal. Of course there's mitigation, but the drop-off is alarming.

His true level over the next year or two probably lies somewhere in between the first half of the season and what we've seen lately. So probably not a £400k a week player, but still someone who can contribute a lot.

I'd be happy if he stayed, but I'd argue there's still a decision for Edwards and co to make in the summer if we receive a huge offer.

[Coolie High]

For me with Salah the duel threat has reduced somewhat in recent years. Like all elite wingers and like Ronaldo even at United he retains the skill to beat players on the dribble, but that bit of explosiveness in the follow through is just a little bit muted due to age.

Ronaldo retained his aerial duel prowess until late in his career. Not sure if Salah is the same? I don’t have easy access to header won stats so will have to rely on Jack for that …

Duel threat as in he’s a creator and finisher.

[Coolie High]

He’s going to hit form again and many people will once again have to backtrack on their comments, it’s happened for a couple seasons now but some of you never learn.

[Draex]

He’s going to hit form again and many people will once again have to backtrack on their comments, it’s happened for a couple seasons now but some of you never learn.

Like "sick and tired of this team"? Glass houses?

There will be a point he doesn't, let's hope thats a few years away, form is temporary, class is permanent... until you're legs go..

[killer-heels]

People are just being ridiculous now in terms of his pace and stuff. He was up against Mitchell and also on that side Lerma. Both are really quick and physical players.

We have seen players like Luke Shaw and Ashley Young have good games against Salah even at his peak. Sometimes other players are allowed to have good games without proclaiming our players legs have gone.

[Bobsackamano]

I think his days as a winger in a set up like ours is numbered - he seems pretty one-dimensional now that his pace has dwindled. You have to respect how he's gradually adapted his game to account for it, but he seems like someone who should be moving more centrally. I'd love to see what he can do as a CF.

Could be a good shout, he could drop as a false 9 but he'll always have that scoring instinct as well. He could also go the John Barnes route as well and drop back to midfield.

[Draex]

Could be a good shout, he could drop as a false 9 but he'll always have that scoring instinct as well. He could also go the John Barnes route as well and drop back to midfield.

As his pace keeps going he can transition to 6 as he doesn't like tracking back.

[Garlic Red]

I don’t doubt Salah will find form again and I don’t doubt he has at least a couple of seasons at the top left in him. For me, though, it’s a question of windows and planning. Our squad is relatively young, we’ll have a new manager coming in and that’s essentially a new window for a new team to be built and to peak again. There’s definitely a feeling that elements of this squad are past their peak and we need to freshen up certain areas. I find it hard to believe Hughes and co won’t be looking at the age of Salah, the potential for immediate decline/heightened dependency on teammates/play style to elevate his levels and think it’s probably best all round if we move on and get younger.

I don’t think there’s any need to pitch the idea Salah’s finished, he’ll still perform at a top level for a few years but he’s at an age where decline can start rapidly, especially as a forward, and maybe there’s simply no need to take the risk when good money’s available and we back our guys to reinvest it well. If we’re going to continue with intensity being our identity, I’m not sure if a 32 year old with serious mileage is the spearhead for a new cycle.

[PaleBlueDot]

I don’t doubt Salah will find form again and I don’t doubt he has at least a couple of seasons at the top left in him. For me, though, it’s a question of windows and planning. Our squad is relatively young, we’ll have a new manager coming in and that’s essentially a new window for a new team to be built and to peak again. There’s definitely a feeling that elements of this squad are past their peak and we need to freshen up certain areas. I find it hard to believe Hughes and co won’t be looking at the age of Salah, the potential for immediate decline/heightened dependency on teammates/play style to elevate his levels and think it’s probably best all round if we move on and get younger.

I don’t think there’s any need to pitch the idea Salah’s finished, he’ll still perform at a top level for a few years but he’s at an age where decline can start rapidly, especially as a forward, and maybe there’s simply no need to take the risk when good money’s available and we back our guys to reinvest it well. If we’re going to continue with intensity being our identity, I’m not sure if a 32 year old with serious mileage is the spearhead for a new cycle.

Best summary that I'd agree with. He's still good. Will probably still be good for a little longer. But it's not a risk we have to take and could be better of, financially and tactically...freshening things up.

[Redley]

I'm not sure there are many successful teams that haven't had at least a few over 30 players. Its about striking a balance, and we've done well over the last few years to shred quite a lot of age from the team (Henderson, Sadio, Bobby, Gini, Ox, Naby, Fab, Millie and Origi) and will be doing the same this summer coming (Thiago, Adrian and Joel). But we probably do need to be careful not to go too far in the other direction. Come the summer we'll have five players in their early 30s and then no-one in the squad is older than 27. I think thats a pretty good place to be, we dont need to start bombing players out because they're 31/32 even though they're still performing at the top level.

[Sheer Magnetism]

If Amorim really is coming in and that means playing with wing backs, I wonder if the medium term solution will be to play two of Salah, Nunez and Jota up front with a trequartista - perhaps Szoboszlai or Elliott - behind. If the width is coming from the wing backs that would probably make Salah's pace less of an issue.

[Haggis36]

I'm not sure there are many successful teams that haven't had at least a few over 30 players. Its about striking a balance, and we've done well over the last few years to shred quite a lot of age from the team (Henderson, Sadio, Bobby, Gini, Ox, Naby, Fab, Millie and Origi) and will be doing the same this summer coming (Thiago, Adrian and Joel). But we probably do need to be careful not to go too far in the other direction. Come the summer we'll have five players in their early 30s and then no-one in the squad is older than 27. I think thats a pretty good place to be, we dont need to start bombing players out because they're 31/32 even though they're still performing at the top level.

I think you're right, a lot of the work to change the age profile of the squad started over last summer. It was clear watching us last season that we just had a few too many players throughout the starting 11 on the wrong side of the age curve, and though if you singled out any one of them you could argue "ok he's a bit slower but it's not too bad", the cumulative effect of that across the pitch was crippling at times and we had games where we couldn't get anywhere near the ball.

The problem isn't having a handful of players 30 and over, but the contract situation. Alisson is a non-issue, long contract, GKs play well for much longer. Endo isn't much of an issue, with another 3 years to go on low wages (although I think he might be vulnerable this summer for other reasons). Even Robbo, his current contract probably sits quite nicely - 2 years left on fairly modest wages compared to his profile.

The issue is really only VVD and Salah, and it's not a question of bombing them out but of the fact that they're down to the final year of their contracts which prompts uncomfortable questions. We only have 3 options:- i) sell now and realise some money to re-invest in the team, ii) let them go for free next year (as we've tended to do in recent years), or iii) commit to expensive new contracts taking them well in to their mid 30s, for players whose decline could start at any moment. We have to pick one, and we probably have to do it quite soon.

They're pretty comfortably the 2 highest paid players in the squad. I think that's probably just about justifiable based on their form this season. But will it be in 2 years time? Harder to say, and we'd be locking that in now not knowing the answer. I think if one or both are prepared to drop their wages, it becomes a more straightforward discussion to have, but I don't think either would do that (nor am I saying they should). Equally, I'm sure both players would want a longer deal than we'll likely be comfortable in offering.

It's a difficult position for us to be in, and there's a lot we're not privy to. Maybe Salah has already told us he's decided to leave on a free next summer, but then a £60m offer comes in from Saudi - is it worth forgoing £80m in fees and saved wages to keep him for one year if we're losing him next year anyway? If we're already accepting we're in a bit of a rebuild phase and we'll spend a chunk of next season adapting to a new manager/set-up? People get bogged down in the "we can't replace him" mindset but we are going to have to, whether it's this summer, next summer or the summer after. It'd be easier to do it with some actual money.