Author Topic: Astroworld Tragedy  (Read 5488 times)

Offline RainbowFlick

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Astroworld Tragedy
« on: November 9, 2021, 12:18:48 pm »
Been a few drawing parallels with Hillsborough (some of which were ignorant to fans not breaching the gates there, but it did happen at Astroworld) but it's a pretty important topic on event management, safety, and failures of those that organised the event.

Been quite a lot of sensationalism and misinformation circulating (and weird satanic panics), but would recommend this read for a balanced take: https://www.stereogum.com/2166670/travis-scott-astroworld/columns/sounding-board/

I'm hoping a proper inquest will take place into the event and Live Nation et al are held accountable for their failings. The families deserve justice and there is a need for large scale events to be run better: better crowd management, safer stage design and tighter safety protocols all around.

As someone that goes to a lot of festivals and concerts, in hindsight something like this was inevitably going to happen. It must not happen again.
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Offline Elzar

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #1 on: November 9, 2021, 12:28:24 pm »
Have seen a lot of videos and bits about this on Reddit, it seems Astroworld had the same problem at their last event in 2019, barriers didn't keep people out properly and then there was no safety within the crowds. The biggest prick in all of this though is Travis Scott. The guy is shown in many videos ignoring people being crowd surfed unconscious to safety, emergency services pulling people out the crowd and at one point he sees an ambulance trying to get into the crowd and he gets everyone to put the middle finger up at it and then plays one of his songs encouraging more movement and craziness from the crowd. There is plenty of examples on YouTube of bands and singers stopping shows when a member of the crowd looks unwell, he just wanted to play the bad guy.

The event organisers have to take a serious look at themselves, but this guy should be banned from ever performing again and held accountable to all those that died and got badly injured.
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #2 on: November 9, 2021, 01:10:44 pm »
Quote
I’ve also seen a lot of people online blaming the fans, especially the ones who danced on ambulances, or in front of ambulances, as they tried to get people out.

Many years ago I was working on traffic and people management on a very tight crossroads at Glastonbury festival.

We had to turn an ambulance on the crossroads. I can't remember if there was a casualty on board or if they were trying to get to someone requiring assistance.

It was Thursday night with not a lot going on, streams of people were passing through the crossroads in all directions looking for some entertainment.

Although it was clear that the ambulance needed to get somewhere urgently people just kept on oblivious. It took myself, a couple of my team and several security about 40 minutes to get it turned.

This involved us linking arms and forming a tight cordon round the ambulance and turning as it turned, people kept on moving into us as if there was nothing in their way.
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #3 on: November 9, 2021, 01:25:38 pm »
Travis Scott is a weapon, this is all on him. He encouraged people to barge in and act like idiots, didn't stop the show when he could clearly see someone was down, ignored police warnings before the show etc.

RIP to all those who lost their lives. Looking at the pictures, very scary similarities to Hillborough.

Offline rodderzzz

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #4 on: November 9, 2021, 01:37:18 pm »
Been a few drawing parallels with Hillsborough (some of which were ignorant to fans not breaching the gates there, but it did happen at Astroworld) but it's a pretty important topic on event management, safety, and failures of those that organised the event.

Been quite a lot of sensationalism and misinformation circulating (and weird satanic panics), but would recommend this read for a balanced take: https://www.stereogum.com/2166670/travis-scott-astroworld/columns/sounding-board/

I'm hoping a proper inquest will take place into the event and Live Nation et al are held accountable for their failings. The families deserve justice and there is a need for large scale events to be run better: better crowd management, safer stage design and tighter safety protocols all around.

As someone that goes to a lot of festivals and concerts, in hindsight something like this was inevitably going to happen. It must not happen again.

I'm following this quite closely, and have not seen anything about fans breaching gates? I've not seen any evidence to suggest everyone there wasn't supposed to be. All the initial reports talked about a surge from the back when Scott went on. I'm not saying you are wrong about that information, but given how damaging we know that can be, I'd like to see where you're pulling that info from?

It already looks like authorities are pulling the same stunts that they did at Hillsborough, trying to blame an unruly crowd (currently doing toxicology reports on the dead for drugs), blaming bad behaviour without much evidence of it so far (I know the claim about the security guard getting spiked, but that doesn't cause a crush, it's trying to paint a picture).

All the videos on twitter from when Scott came on stage showed fans well behaved, filming on their phones, fairly decent spacing at that point, and then minutes later same area no phones and people clearly struggling.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #5 on: November 9, 2021, 01:56:48 pm »
I'm following this quite closely, and have not seen anything about fans breaching gates? I've not seen any evidence to suggest everyone there wasn't supposed to be. All the initial reports talked about a surge from the back when Scott went on. I'm not saying you are wrong about that information, but given how damaging we know that can be, I'd like to see where you're pulling that info from?

It already looks like authorities are pulling the same stunts that they did at Hillsborough, trying to blame an unruly crowd (currently doing toxicology reports on the dead for drugs), blaming bad behaviour without much evidence of it so far (I know the claim about the security guard getting spiked, but that doesn't cause a crush, it's trying to paint a picture).

All the videos on twitter from when Scott came on stage showed fans well behaved, filming on their phones, fairly decent spacing at that point, and then minutes later same area no phones and people clearly struggling.
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Offline rodderzzz

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #6 on: November 9, 2021, 02:01:11 pm »
Fair enough I hadn't seen that video, I will say though that's clearly happened early in the day, hours before Scott's gone on stage, so authorities have had more than enough time to rectify it and manage it rather than understaff the thing and now victim blame

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #7 on: November 9, 2021, 02:18:28 pm »
Not sure how people bursting through barriers is the fault of the authorities. That's combined fault of those people and security. This must have led to the event being overcrowded. I saw lots of videos on twitter on sunday morning, a few stood out because they were fans trying to get the concert stopped but were ignored by cameramen, Travis Scott himself and security. It's not the first time for Travis Scott either in terms of unruly crowds.
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #8 on: November 9, 2021, 02:21:29 pm »
Not sure how people bursting through barriers is the fault of the authorities. That's combined fault of those people and security. This must have led to the event being overcrowded. I saw lots of videos on twitter on sunday morning, a few stood out because they were fans trying to get the concert stopped but were ignored by cameramen, Travis Scott himself and security. It's not the first time for Travis Scott either in terms of unruly crowds.

The issue for me is that the same thing happened in 2019 apparently with the crowd. That means the authorities/organisers should have been better prepared.

There is still a lot of time to sort it and stop the resulting crush though, and as you hinted at Scott encourages the crowd to act unruly which is a known thing for his fans.
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #9 on: November 9, 2021, 02:59:59 pm »
Fair enough I hadn't seen that video, I will say though that's clearly happened early in the day, hours before Scott's gone on stage, so authorities have had more than enough time to rectify it and manage it rather than understaff the thing and now victim blame

Yes, and people bursting through undoubtedly meant there were hundreds, possibly thousands of extra people that weren’t meant to be there. Contributing to the crush.

Not sure why you’re so keen to state the people bursting in wasn’t a problem

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #10 on: November 9, 2021, 03:04:38 pm »
Not sure how people bursting through barriers is the fault of the authorities. That's combined fault of those people and security. This must have led to the event being overcrowded. I saw lots of videos on twitter on sunday morning, a few stood out because they were fans trying to get the concert stopped but were ignored by cameramen, Travis Scott himself and security. It's not the first time for Travis Scott either in terms of unruly crowds.

He had tweets saying come on in even without a ticket. He has since deleted them but there's still screenshots.
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #12 on: November 9, 2021, 04:29:12 pm »
Have seen a lot of videos and bits about this on Reddit, it seems Astroworld had the same problem at their last event in 2019, barriers didn't keep people out properly and then there was no safety within the crowds. The biggest prick in all of this though is Travis Scott. The guy is shown in many videos ignoring people being crowd surfed unconscious to safety, emergency services pulling people out the crowd and at one point he sees an ambulance trying to get into the crowd and he gets everyone to put the middle finger up at it and then plays one of his songs encouraging more movement and craziness from the crowd. There is plenty of examples on YouTube of bands and singers stopping shows when a member of the crowd looks unwell, he just wanted to play the bad guy.

The event organisers have to take a serious look at themselves, but this guy should be banned from ever performing again and held accountable to all those that died and got badly injured.

I think a lot of clips were shared which have been sensationalised, as per your response to this. It is not unusual, especially in America, for one of those small ambulances to be in a crowd during a festival. It's also not unusual for fans to be passing out at shows nowadays. i'm not saying that should be normalised, but with context it does explain why his reaction was minimal even if he stopped the show once or twice to get people help.

There needs to be better crowd management and safety protocols from this. Banning one guy is not going to solve a problem that is much bigger than him. Live Nation essentially have a monopoly of events in the US and now there's going to be a legal battle where Live Nation tries to pin the blame squarely on Travis and the fans which is unjust but in effect Travis will struggle to tour for quite some time, if at all, as Live Nation wouldn't book him and insurance premiums will be way up.

This sort of thing happens whether it's Travis or Beyonce. Ultimately the responsibility lays on the promoters and those managing the event to pull the plug or put up safety messages. Telling people to step back a few after pausing the show could've saved several lives and injuries. But they failed to do so.

« Last Edit: November 9, 2021, 04:49:45 pm by RainbowFlick »
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #13 on: November 9, 2021, 04:32:18 pm »
Travis Scott is a weapon, this is all on him. He encouraged people to barge in and act like idiots, didn't stop the show when he could clearly see someone was down, ignored police warnings before the show etc.

RIP to all those who lost their lives. Looking at the pictures, very scary similarities to Hillborough.

This sort of thinking will have ZERO change to event management. Live Nation wants to pin the blame on Travis when there are huge systemic failings that they've ignored at numerous events in the past, including previous Astroworlds. Also - there were no police warnings other than a standard briefing before the event. They could've pulled the plug on the event at the time but chose not to - that is negligence.

Yes he shares some of the blame for perhaps inciting the crowd at times, but ultimately people died due to being squeezed up at the front and being unable to get up and breathe. That is on the organisers. Surprised how you can see the similarities to Hillsborough but then ignore the systemic failings.
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #14 on: November 9, 2021, 04:34:57 pm »
I'm following this quite closely, and have not seen anything about fans breaching gates? I've not seen any evidence to suggest everyone there wasn't supposed to be. All the initial reports talked about a surge from the back when Scott went on. I'm not saying you are wrong about that information, but given how damaging we know that can be, I'd like to see where you're pulling that info from?

It already looks like authorities are pulling the same stunts that they did at Hillsborough, trying to blame an unruly crowd (currently doing toxicology reports on the dead for drugs), blaming bad behaviour without much evidence of it so far (I know the claim about the security guard getting spiked, but that doesn't cause a crush, it's trying to paint a picture).

All the videos on twitter from when Scott came on stage showed fans well behaved, filming on their phones, fairly decent spacing at that point, and then minutes later same area no phones and people clearly struggling.

There was videos of people jumping gates (as they have in previous Astroworlds) and people gave their accounts of what happened. That said, it wouldn't be enough numbers to cause this tragedy to occur so is a bit of a red herring. I go to a lot of these sorts of events and this in hindsight was always bound to happen. I've been to numerous shows where people are passing out left and right from lack of air but the concerts just continue. And those events are not 'over' capacity.

The behaviour from police and journalists on this, as well as some on social media, does have shades to what I understand happened during the early moments of Hillsborough (I wasn't around then).

The security officer being injected is also very suspect. You can't randomly jab someone like that for it to be effective - you have to have an incredible aim.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2021, 04:36:58 pm by RainbowFlick »
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #15 on: November 9, 2021, 04:41:10 pm »
Not sure how people bursting through barriers is the fault of the authorities. That's combined fault of those people and security. This must have led to the event being overcrowded. I saw lots of videos on twitter on sunday morning, a few stood out because they were fans trying to get the concert stopped but were ignored by cameramen, Travis Scott himself and security. It's not the first time for Travis Scott either in terms of unruly crowds.

It is a fault of authorities though. This has happened before - in which case you tighten up security. If you are markedly over capacity (which so far there's no indication it was) you stop the event to prevent crushing. Then there's the failings of crowd management in the actual standing area, lack of medical and security personnel and a huge delay in acting. Seeing people passed out is not unsurprising at these events - someone should've turned off the sound system as soon as it was clear there was an issue.

I think you're simplifying the matter too much. Unruly crowds aren't the issue and it's only a small handful of people that may 'act up'. People push from the back because they want to get to the front not knowing how packed it is towards the front. Eventually, you just end up in a 'sea' of people (it's not a moshpit even if people call it that). Dependent on your size you may get flung in any direction and some end up being essentially plastered against the metal railings unable to move. I've seen first hand this happen at Travis Scott shows, a Beyonce show, even a Lana Del Rey show. We essentially just accepted it over the years but in reality we should be demanding better from these promoters.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2021, 04:42:51 pm by RainbowFlick »
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #16 on: November 9, 2021, 04:44:37 pm »
Yes, and people bursting through undoubtedly meant there were hundreds, possibly thousands of extra people that weren’t meant to be there. Contributing to the crush.

Not sure why you’re so keen to state the people bursting in wasn’t a problem

there's no evidence to suggest there was hundreds or thousands of extra people though, maybe a few dozen from this videos we saw, this is hearsay at this point. and as I've said above, even at 'capacity' venues, I've been in situations that have been close to this but thankfully the venues were better prepared to cope and would shut off music etc.

people are focusing on the wrong things in my honest opinion. yes travis and a handful of fans may have done wrong here, but there's systemic failures that need to be improved going forward. it's not a Travis problem solely. it's a culture problem of people needing the best Snapchat video *AND* an issue in crowd management, stage design, medical availability and stewarding/policing. Blaming Travis and/or the fans is the easy thing to do, but if you've been to many popular energetic concerts or festivals you'll realise this has been brewing for some time - whether that's Coachella, Wireless Festival or something at e.g. Brixton Academy.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2021, 04:51:26 pm by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #17 on: November 9, 2021, 04:50:50 pm »
Really sad tragedy, nobody should die going to a gig/event.

RIP to those lost.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #18 on: November 9, 2021, 04:59:49 pm »
Efficient and effective crowd control at large events is possible.

The only major event I regularly go to, and have a reasonable knowledge re the organisation and management, is Glastonbury festival.

Even with huge crowds at some of the stages, dependent on the artist playing, I'm not aware of any crowd issues.

The billing for the main stages is carefully coordinated to split the crowds, arenas are quickly shut off once capacity is reached. I witnessed this when Pulp played the Park Stage (a relatively small arena), all the approach roads were blocked off.

One way systems have been brought into place for the all night venues in the SE corner. This would have prevented the ambulance problem I mentioned in a earlier post had it been in place at the time.

The management also listen to the feedback of the stewards etc. I've seen several changes implemented as a result.
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #19 on: November 9, 2021, 05:04:46 pm »
Efficient and effective crowd control at large events is possible.

The only major event I regularly go to, and have a reasonable knowledge re the organisation and management, is Glastonbury festival.

Even with huge crowds at some of the stages, dependent on the artist playing, I'm not aware of any crowd issues.

The billing for the main stages is carefully coordinated to split the crowds, arenas are quickly shut off once capacity is reached. I witnessed this when Pulp played the Park Stage (a relatively small arena), all the approach roads were blocked off.

One way systems have been brought into place for the all night venues in the SE corner. This would have prevented the ambulance problem I mentioned in a earlier post had it been in place at the time.

The management also listen to the feedback of the stewards etc. I've seen several changes implemented as a result.

agree, it's definitely possible. in my experience of going to quite a few US festivals versus UK ones, the UK ones are a *bit* better organised generally with better safety protocols but i've seen people pass out here from lack of air and be injured too. it gets a bit hairier in the medium sized festivals where it's like 60,000 people though as more often than not there are maybe a handful of headliners that everyone *must* see and not alternative stages to share the load. from what i understand they also increased the capacity of Astroworld this year in a bid no doubt to recoup losses over the pandemic.

better crowd management, innovations in stage design and more watertight protocols on stopping shows etc is needed. as well as a bit of a culture change of people not trying to push from the back to get a better spot.
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #20 on: November 9, 2021, 07:42:39 pm »
Have seen a lot of videos and bits about this on Reddit, it seems Astroworld had the same problem at their last event in 2019, barriers didn't keep people out properly and then there was no safety within the crowds. The biggest prick in all of this though is Travis Scott. The guy is shown in many videos ignoring people being crowd surfed unconscious to safety, emergency services pulling people out the crowd and at one point he sees an ambulance trying to get into the crowd and he gets everyone to put the middle finger up at it and then plays one of his songs encouraging more movement and craziness from the crowd. There is plenty of examples on YouTube of bands and singers stopping shows when a member of the crowd looks unwell, he just wanted to play the bad guy.

The event organisers have to take a serious look at themselves, but this guy should be banned from ever performing again and held accountable to all those that died and got badly injured.
Yeah, I agree with this. Having intentionally sought out uncensored videos of this, I wanted to see what actually happened. There's very strong parallels with Hillsborough in terms of organisation and security. In fact, it's worse, and I'm astonished it was only 8 people that lost their lives, even though it was 8 too many. I can only put that down to sheer luck and the fact that inside the actual event was a large enough open space for some to escape the worst of the crushing. In terms of the security, and the initial breach of the entrance, I saw literally one or two security men trying to hold back what looked like a couple of hundred people breaching the security gate and running in. It took about 5 minutes of this before two cops on horseback showed up and sat and did fuck all. Then you get to the so called singer himself. Initially I gave him the benefit of the doubt by continuing the show. I put that down to him being professional and probably miscommunication, but as the videos went on, there was no fucking way he couldn't have known what was happening. At one point he was high up on a podium and could see everything, as there were people receiving CPR on the ground literally yards away from him. He's a fucking scumbag and should never be allowed to host an event again. I hope the families take him to the cleaners and bankrupt the c*nt.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #21 on: November 9, 2021, 08:49:26 pm »
Regarding the surging of the gate - that video looks like it was taken in the middle of the day, and this event was happening past 9pm. That is potentially 3 hours+ to reorganise security around the main stage to account for a potentially over-limit crowd.

As for Travis, I can´t say what he did and didn´t incite. Perhaps he could and should have taken the initiative. But surely the onus is on the organisers and security to pull the plug on the show, not the performer?

Finally, I have been at gigs and festivals with people passing out. It is not that uncommon. In fact I remember my first ever gig at the O2 academy in Liverpool. It was a Motorhead gig, and although the venue was not overcapacity, as soon as Motorhead came on everyone who had been on the balcony section for the support acts came down to the main floor without anyone seemingly stopping them. Me and my mate were at the bery front. I saw two people crowdsurfed out unconscious, and both my mate (who couldn´t breath) and then me had to be pulled out at the front as we were getting crushed against the barriers. I just took it as normal at the time, even though I was only 13/14 at the time and was slightly shook up at first.

So yeah these things can and do happen, and are nearly always easily avoidable with some better organisation. As we should all know.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #22 on: November 9, 2021, 09:28:58 pm »
Regarding the surging of the gate - that video looks like it was taken in the middle of the day, and this event was happening past 9pm. That is potentially 3 hours+ to reorganise security around the main stage to account for a potentially over-limit crowd.

As for Travis, I can´t say what he did and didn´t incite. Perhaps he could and should have taken the initiative. But surely the onus is on the organisers and security to pull the plug on the show, not the performer?

Finally, I have been at gigs and festivals with people passing out. It is not that uncommon. In fact I remember my first ever gig at the O2 academy in Liverpool. It was a Motorhead gig, and although the venue was not overcapacity, as soon as Motorhead came on everyone who had been on the balcony section for the support acts came down to the main floor without anyone seemingly stopping them. Me and my mate were at the bery front. I saw two people crowdsurfed out unconscious, and both my mate (who couldn´t breath) and then me had to be pulled out at the front as we were getting crushed against the barriers. I just took it as normal at the time, even though I was only 13/14 at the time and was slightly shook up at first.

So yeah these things can and do happen, and are nearly always easily avoidable with some better organisation. As we should all know.
It's on both of them. Until we know more, we can't really speculate, but I can only say what I saw in the videos, and they are damning on both the organisers, be it security or whatnot, and the performer. He was bound to have gotten word, and if he didn't, why not? Even so, he can use his eyes for fuck sake. Some of the crushing was happening right in front of him at the barriers near the main stage, and as I say, he'd an overview from a platform and there's no way he couldn't see what was going on. Contrast him to someone like Adele, who stopped right in the middle of a song because she saw someone faint and made sure the person got attention. Your man's a c*nt.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #23 on: November 9, 2021, 09:30:48 pm »
Travis Scott is literally the organiser, its his festival! you only have to look at his previous, from inciting the beating of a guy who apparently took his shoe to encouraging someone to jump from a second floor balcony after someone had already fallen from a third floor balcony and been paralysed for life at that concert.
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #24 on: November 9, 2021, 09:46:54 pm »
Travis Scott is literally the organiser, its his festival! you only have to look at his previous, from inciting the beating of a guy who apparently took his shoe to encouraging someone to jump from a second floor balcony after someone had already fallen from a third floor balcony and been paralysed for life at that concert.

He does have some responsibility, but I feel people are too quick to pin everything on him. Part of his "live experience" is him going absolutely crazy, I don't think he even raps, there's just a backing track and the majority of his sets are him just playing a hype man. This is common place in rap and trap-rap music these days, you see mosh pits at Stormzy/Dave etc. it's why over the last 10 years more and more rap acts have made it to headlining Reading/Leeds for example. I think it was 2004, 50 Cent got bottled off stage, within 10 years the entire landscape has changed.

Like others have said, at gigs/concerts and festivals especially, it's commonplace for injuries. People being crowdsurfed out of a crowd who are injured or unconscious happens more than you would expect. I don't know if anyone was at Leeds Festival in 2009 for The Prodigy, you had people pulled up to burger vans to escape the crush. I was fortunate to be helped over a fence by some people because of the crush. I saw people trampled on, crushed, blood everywhere, broken limbs, it was absolutely crazy. To this day, I don't know how somebody did not die. The barriers at festivals don't help at times imo and part of the reason is people don't know how to react.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #25 on: November 9, 2021, 10:13:04 pm »
Travis Scott is literally the organiser, its his festival! you only have to look at his previous, from inciting the beating of a guy who apparently took his shoe to encouraging someone to jump from a second floor balcony after someone had already fallen from a third floor balcony and been paralysed for life at that concert.
Not only does he have an extensive history of inciting this type of reckless behaviour into crowds, you have pointed some but there are even more, but there were people literally screaming at him that there were dead people in the crowd while he continued playing with no care in the world. I've seen bands stop shows because someone fainted, and here there were people at the front getting crushed and screaming for their lives to stop the show, and this pos continued playing for 40 more minutes. The first minutes of this video are incredibly hard to watch, so discretion is advised.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/hIlx0Y-e_KE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/hIlx0Y-e_KE</a>

Was he the only one responsible? No, but he was one of the organisers, the main instigator (he literally tweeted hours before for people to sneak into the show) and the one who had more power to stop it all and save people's lives, and he chose not to. That awful narcissistic piece of shit deserves everything that's coming to him.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2021, 10:19:20 pm by Lastrador »

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2021, 12:20:50 am »
Travis Scott and Donald Trump both should be in jail for hosting events where people got killed.  Deaths occurred when they implored their supporters to put themselves in harms way, ignore laws and they did nothing to de-escalate when things were on the edge of disaster; if anything they escalated things even as the first bodies hit the ground. 
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2021, 08:43:39 am »
He does have some responsibility, but I feel people are too quick to pin everything on him. Part of his "live experience" is him going absolutely crazy, I don't think he even raps, there's just a backing track and the majority of his sets are him just playing a hype man. This is common place in rap and trap-rap music these days, you see mosh pits at Stormzy/Dave etc. it's why over the last 10 years more and more rap acts have made it to headlining Reading/Leeds for example. I think it was 2004, 50 Cent got bottled off stage, within 10 years the entire landscape has changed.

Like others have said, at gigs/concerts and festivals especially, it's commonplace for injuries. People being crowdsurfed out of a crowd who are injured or unconscious happens more than you would expect. I don't know if anyone was at Leeds Festival in 2009 for The Prodigy, you had people pulled up to burger vans to escape the crush. I was fortunate to be helped over a fence by some people because of the crush. I saw people trampled on, crushed, blood everywhere, broken limbs, it was absolutely crazy. To this day, I don't know how somebody did not die. The barriers at festivals don't help at times imo and part of the reason is people don't know how to react.


Organisers and people just never learn. Two fans were crushed to death at Monsters Of Rock at Donington in 1988 during Guns N Roses set. GnR had stopped playing a few times to allow the crowd to settle and move back but as soon as they started playing, the crush started again and eventually two died. Axl had said to the crowd as they left the stage don't fucking kill each other, the band didn't realise how bad it was.

I remember getting crushed at the Royal Court, can't remember who we went to see, but it was fucking scary, somehow we managed to work our way to the side.
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2021, 08:49:50 am »
This tragedy is turning into a honeypot for lawyers.
If he retires I'll eat my fucking cock.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2021, 09:31:30 am »
Yeah, I agree with this. Having intentionally sought out uncensored videos of this, I wanted to see what actually happened. There's very strong parallels with Hillsborough in terms of organisation and security. In fact, it's worse, and I'm astonished it was only 8 people that lost their lives, even though it was 8 too many. I can only put that down to sheer luck and the fact that inside the actual event was a large enough open space for some to escape the worst of the crushing. In terms of the security, and the initial breach of the entrance, I saw literally one or two security men trying to hold back what looked like a couple of hundred people breaching the security gate and running in. It took about 5 minutes of this before two cops on horseback showed up and sat and did fuck all. Then you get to the so called singer himself. Initially I gave him the benefit of the doubt by continuing the show. I put that down to him being professional and probably miscommunication, but as the videos went on, there was no fucking way he couldn't have known what was happening. At one point he was high up on a podium and could see everything, as there were people receiving CPR on the ground literally yards away from him. He's a fucking scumbag and should never be allowed to host an event again. I hope the families take him to the cleaners and bankrupt the c*nt.

It's not abnormal to see people passing out or tiny ambulances running through shows: whether that's Beyonce, Travis or beyond. That's not to say that's acceptable in the first place, but it's pretty much a common occurrence at events now. Ultimately the organisers should've pulled the plug.

I think with the context of his past shows (always being someone passing out or getting slightly injured) it's perhaps hard for him to understand the gravity of the situation without someone shouting in his ear. Would I have stopped it? Probably - but he did pause a few times to get help. Should the organisers and/or police who have ultimate ability to stop the show have done so? Definitely.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 09:33:05 am by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2021, 09:34:45 am »
This tragedy is turning into a honeypot for lawyers.

Really wish US wasn't this litigious. The focus should be getting justice for the families and this being a turning point for better crowd management/safety. This has been a long time coming in my experience, a lot of events have got away with similar conditions over the years. Live Nation and others shouldn't be allowed to return to their usual.
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2021, 09:38:41 am »
Travis Scott is literally the organiser, its his festival! you only have to look at his previous, from inciting the beating of a guy who apparently took his shoe to encouraging someone to jump from a second floor balcony after someone had already fallen from a third floor balcony and been paralysed for life at that concert.

he is not the 'organiser', he's the brand behind the show yes, but Live Nation and co do the security arrangements etc. Does he incite the crowd? Yes. Does that somewhat add to the allure to his shows over the years? Yes. Not to say it's excusable but ultimately those that organised the festival should ensure it's not overcrowded and that people have sufficient space to breathe. He does have some culpability here but much of the scenes he witnessed are probably not dissimilar to many of his previous shows but thankfully not fatal. Crowd surges wasn't even covered in the safety briefing for this show which is crazy when you know how packed these shows can be.

If you've been to an event of anyone that has huge fanbases, you'll realise that even without the egging-on of Travis Scott a lot of events have run close to an outcome like this but thankfully venues were better prepared and fans were only somewhat injured or passed out. It's a culture problem of people wanting to get to the front and there being poor crowd management and safety protocols.

Live Nation, the police and others will try to pin the blame squarely on Travis Scott and fans. That is just inaccurate. There's 'blame' to be shared but they should be ensuring a safe event for all - and there is a lot for them to learn and reform on, as well as artists and the behind the scenes team having better safety protocols in place.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 09:43:45 am by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2021, 10:16:44 am »
He sounds like a right piece of shit. His music is fucking gash. He's got a hardcore of fans who are utter wankers.

Should be banned from every performing live again. But that shouldn't exonerate Live Nation, who are grabbing shysters.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2021, 10:54:02 am »
Not sure how people bursting through barriers is the fault of the authorities. That's combined fault of those people and security. This must have led to the event being overcrowded. I saw lots of videos on twitter on sunday morning, a few stood out because they were fans trying to get the concert stopped but were ignored by cameramen, Travis Scott himself and security. It's not the first time for Travis Scott either in terms of unruly crowds.

It's the fault of the oragnisers and security. Security at large events isn't a new problem. I went to a few concerts at Knebworth Park back in the 1970s and there were always people trying to bunk in or get through, over perimeter fences. The Stones in 1976 had a crowd of between 150-250,000. no one knows exactly because security was shite. The year afyter the fences and control was much better.

There should be multiple rings of security with ticket checks before the final access. And it's interesting that the video shows people pushing through but a lot were then forced back by the police. That doesn't look like it was the final access.

The thing about crowds is that when you're in the middle you can't see the big picture. And ultimately the safety of large crowds comes down to planning and organisation. I wasnlt at Hillsborough but I've been in plenty of crushes when there's thousands trying to get into the ground and it's getting near kick-off. And it always feels worse at away grounds where there's already some tension, and there's a feeling the ground staff and the police see you as an unwelcome problem.

Incidentally, I found a documentary piece about a news crew making a nws report about the 1976 Knebworth concert. About 6:30 he talks about the tendency of news reports always thinking that there may be trouble and to be careful taking an isolated incident - domwone throwing a bottle - and making it look like there was trouble when the reality is that tens of thousands were behaving peacefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNu_Jgwo4UA

That clip of some people pushing through a gate will almost certainly have no direct link with the deaths in the crowd. Was it a problem with the behaviour of the people or bad design of the gates?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 10:56:34 am by Alan_X »
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2021, 10:55:54 am »
he is not the 'organiser', he's the brand behind the show yes, but Live Nation and co do the security arrangements etc. Does he incite the crowd? Yes. Does that somewhat add to the allure to his shows over the years? Yes. Not to say it's excusable but ultimately those that organised the festival should ensure it's not overcrowded and that people have sufficient space to breathe. He does have some culpability here but much of the scenes he witnessed are probably not dissimilar to many of his previous shows but thankfully not fatal. Crowd surges wasn't even covered in the safety briefing for this show which is crazy when you know how packed these shows can be.

If you've been to an event of anyone that has huge fanbases, you'll realise that even without the egging-on of Travis Scott a lot of events have run close to an outcome like this but thankfully venues were better prepared and fans were only somewhat injured or passed out. It's a culture problem of people wanting to get to the front and there being poor crowd management and safety protocols.

Live Nation, the police and others will try to pin the blame squarely on Travis Scott and fans. That is just inaccurate. There's 'blame' to be shared but they should be ensuring a safe event for all - and there is a lot for them to learn and reform on, as well as artists and the behind the scenes team having better safety protocols in place.

Agree with this. If Scott has a reputation for egging on the crowd the organisers should have prepared for it.
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2021, 11:30:07 am »

The thing about crowds is that when you're in the middle you can't see the big picture.


As a rule of thumb, if you can't see the shoulders of the people in front of you then it's overcrowded.

Event safety crowd-management

https://www.hse.gov.uk/event-safety/crowd-management-assess.htm

Glastonbury event management

https://www.hse.gov.uk/event-safety/crowd-management-assess.htm
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2021, 12:13:14 pm »
Good read from an expert in overcrowding

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvnx7a/the-dangerous-crowd-crush-at-astroworld-was-probably-preventable

The event plan was generic and didn't cover what to do in a crowd surge/frenzy or even moshpits, which is insane as they are a mainstay of most festivals now. Only two people had the power to 'stop' the festival but that didn't include fire marshalls or the police either.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/08/us/astroworld-festival-operations-plan/index.html
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Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2021, 12:14:50 pm »
He sounds like a right piece of shit. His music is fucking gash. He's got a hardcore of fans who are utter wankers.

Should be banned from every performing live again. But that shouldn't exonerate Live Nation, who are grabbing shysters.

I am a fan and there are plenty of good people who are fans too. I might be uneasy listening to him in the future as it'll remind me of this incident but still. Let's not demonise an entire fanbase when we've seen that happen ourselves? Plentiful celebrities are shitty people.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 12:16:28 pm by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2021, 12:43:21 pm »
I am a fan and there are plenty of good people who are fans too. I might be uneasy listening to him in the future as it'll remind me of this incident but still. Let's not demonise an entire fanbase when we've seen that happen ourselves? Plentiful celebrities are shitty people.

Some of the responses in hear are kind of unbelievable considering the forum we're on.

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Re: Astroworld Tragedy
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2021, 12:46:48 pm »
I am a fan and there are plenty of good people who are fans too. I might be uneasy listening to him in the future as it'll remind me of this incident but still. Let's not demonise an entire fanbase when we've seen that happen ourselves? Plentiful celebrities are shitty people.


I should have made clear that I meant there's a section of his fans who seem 'hardcore' and their behaviour at this and other festivals makes them utter wankers. The ones who get whipped up into a frenzy by the divvy on stage, and have no consideration for the welfare of others.



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