Author Topic: Where Did It All Go Wrong.  (Read 8709 times)

Offline Commie Bobbie

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Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« on: June 5, 2021, 03:26:05 pm »
It is a question that has bugged me for years. Really fucking has.

Where did society, both here and abroad go so fucking wrong?

Was it really the financial crisis of 2008 which initiated both Brexit and the rise of Trump and other populists - is it actually the case that the moment the first plane went to the North Tower that fateful day - and we have been dealing with the shitstorm ever since - or was it something else?

We've got some really bright, thoughtful and intelligent people on this forum - and I would be intrigued what your thoughts are?
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #1 on: June 5, 2021, 03:33:39 pm »
How wide ranging do you want the answer?
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Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #2 on: June 5, 2021, 03:36:37 pm »
How wide ranging do you want the answer?

As wide and as open as possible - because I don't think there's one answer however, I do think there is almost a commonality in the answers.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #3 on: June 5, 2021, 03:37:42 pm »
As wide and as open as possible - because I don't think there's one answer however, I do think there is almost a commonality in the answers.

If you want it as wide ranging as possible, the commonality is homo sapiens.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #4 on: June 5, 2021, 03:38:08 pm »
Somewhere between 5 and 7 million years ago.

Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #5 on: June 5, 2021, 03:45:25 pm »
If you want it as wide ranging as possible, the commonality is homo sapiens.

OK, it's just that when I was growing up - in my teens - 1996, 97 especially - it felt like there wasn't an ocean of darkness overlooking the world - it seemed like the UK was trying to learn the lessons from its previous decades of unfairness and institutional racism throughout society and yet - now it feels to me that various parts of society are being constantly denigrated due to political or cultural reasons.

Back then we seem to be a little bit more cultured in our outlook - probably after 18 years of narrow-mindedness and ultimately incompetent Tory rule - there was a wave of optimism rolling throughout society - it couldn't have just gone when Bradford and Bingley and Northern Rock popped its clogs.

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Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #6 on: June 5, 2021, 03:45:29 pm »
I'm only 29 but I'd say things went downhill from around 2010 onwards primarily. So much greed has ruined things like football since then. But society in general has become more selfish and idiotic with the rapid rise of social media.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #7 on: June 5, 2021, 05:57:48 pm »
It is a question that has bugged me for years. Really fucking has.

Where did society, both here and abroad go so fucking wrong?

Was it really the financial crisis of 2008 which initiated both Brexit and the rise of Trump and other populists - is it actually the case that the moment the first plane went to the North Tower that fateful day - and we have been dealing with the shitstorm ever since - or was it something else?

We've got some really bright, thoughtful and intelligent people on this forum - and I would be intrigued what your thoughts are?

The financial crisis prompted austerity driven measures here (and elsewhere to be fair although maybe not to same extent generally) and when you have inequality and social deprivation present such measures compound the inequalities. 

While inequalities existed prior to the financial crash, in terms of the rise of ‘populism’ and subsequent political leadership, social media provided a platform to reach (exploit) the masses with targeted (lies) campaigns. Same exploited individual prejudices, ie with nationalist and at times racist articles, memes, etc.  All enabled by those specialising in data analytics such as Cambridge analytica, etc.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica   All coincided with the birth and then growth of social media.  Not sure if it could happen again to the same extent but the damage was done over the last decade, ie Trump, Brexit, etc.

Offline Lusty

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #8 on: June 5, 2021, 06:14:32 pm »
OK, it's just that when I was growing up - in my teens - 1996, 97 especially - it felt like there wasn't an ocean of darkness overlooking the world
That's because you were in your teens.

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #9 on: June 5, 2021, 06:31:52 pm »
It's always been 'wrong.' I'm pretty sure people were asking the same thing during the Black Plague, WWI, Spanish Flu, WWII, etc. History has always been littered with events and periods where it all looks to be going downhill before an upturn. And then another inevitable period of what seems like impending doom.

It's just the way of our existence.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #10 on: June 5, 2021, 06:36:27 pm »
It's always been 'wrong.' I'm pretty sure people were asking the same thing during the Black Plague, WWI, Spanish Flu, WWII, etc. History has always been littered with events and periods where it all looks to be going downhill before an upturn. And then another inevitable period of what seems like impending doom.

It's just the way of our existence.

The 90s and 00s were generally hopeful. I'd say that they were the peak of the UK as a liberal democratic nation, and felt it at the time.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #11 on: June 5, 2021, 06:48:58 pm »
When did Facebook launch?  Be somewhere around then.  Once morons realised the internet wasn't a thing for geeks and they could could connect with fellow morons that was it.

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #12 on: June 5, 2021, 07:03:01 pm »
If we assume it somehow went wrong, we first have to assume that it was, at some point, right in the first place, but I'm not sure it ever has been, really.

The common denominator is, of course, human beings. Whatever the good build, the shitheads will always undermine and destroy.

In my lifetime, where it really did go pear-shaped from was Thatcherism. She championed all that is negative, all that is selfish and all that is bad about human beings. She told us that greed was good. She told us it was acceptable to stand on others to get ahead. She ushered in the cult of self, self, self and made it not only acceptable, but desirable. She was a sociopath with a sociopathic ideology. What we have today is her legacy. A generally selfish, greedy, self-obsessed country of individuals out for themselves and without regard for the greater good of society. Remember, Thatcher proclaimed there was no such thing as society.

Thatcherism pandered to the lazy and the insecure. It's difficult to care because caring makes you vulnerable and opens you up to pain. Being constructive is a lot more difficult than being destructive. Being fair takes a lot more than being selfish. It takes a bigger person to be generous, and a lesser one to be full of personal greed. It takes more to achieve things the right way, but far less if you cheat or rob, and far less if you trample over others to get where you want to be. Well Thatcherism taught people that so long as they were scheming and 'working' it was ok to be greedy. OK to ride roughshod over others and ok to be as selfish as you liked because there was no such thing as society anyway. Her way appealed and still appeals to the lazy and the mean-spirited in life. The weak who can only feel strong by stomping on others.

What we have now is straight out of her philosophy. A vacuous, self-interested, self-absorbed, superficial world of insecure, plastic fakes who care only about themselves and what they have in a materialistic sense. A world of people who on the surface appear to have achieved, but underneath it all are deeply emotionally insecure and lacking in emotional maturity. All desperate for external attention and approval.

It's no surprise that when the pandemic first started we had to revert to socialist principles to see us through. Then, it was all ''we must stand together, we must support each other'' etc... Thing is, too many had no clue how to do that, because they've been taught for decades that looking after just yourself was fine and dandy. Instead, far too many resorted to hand-to-hand combat over a pack of toilet rolls in the Asda.

Thatcher was not the first sociopath to appeal to the basest human instincts and promote them as virtues, and she's certainly not been the last (look at Trump), but in my lifetime I've come to see her whole process play out and bear its poisonous fruit. The saddest thing for me is that vast swathes of the working class have also succumbed to her ideology and embraced it now too.

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Online oldfordie

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #13 on: June 5, 2021, 07:08:51 pm »
A Foxnews employee phoned a friend during the Jan 6th riots. his friend doesn't work for Fox but appears on other channels discussing politics. he told him "What Have We Done"
He knew things had gone too far, I think that's a good starting point to begin with when trying to work out what is different today than in the past when trying to understand why things have got very bad over the last 6 years.

The right wing in the UK +US are out of control. I can't think of another period were so many right wing politicians seem to have lost all sense of responsibility, they don't seem have that inner alarm bell that tells them where is this going to end,they will carry on until stopped. thats the difference today than in the past but a lot of these examples below have always been around, they have just been exploited far more today than in the past,

Fact. The right wing are masters of propaganda. they have persuaded millions to attack the people they should be defending while defending the people they should be attacking.
How fu.. up is the world when there's arguments over who is worse or are they just as bad as each other, The White Supremacists/Neo -Nazis or the Antifascists (Antifa) who stand up to them. I think this is probably the best example of how bad things of got in the US, thankfully I don't think the UK will ever fall for this s... Liverpools Antifa turned out in force ready to stand up to Tommy Robbinsons old mob The EDL. things did kick off and the EDL were sent packing, returned mob handed a year later and Liverpool were ready to stand up to them again, EDL sent packing again. the whole country praised Liverpool. no criticism over things kicking off as it was to be expected, everyone  understands what happens when people stand up to fascists, things get violent, there wasn't good and bad on both sides as Trump would put it, the fascists were bad, the people who stood up to them were good, they need to be praised and defended for not backing down when things got nasty.

Then there's the CTs convincing millions that people like Bill Gates etc etc have some evil master plan.


Millions have simple beliefs they use over and over when convenient to dismiss arguments proving they are wrong. those same beliefs are conveniently ignored to attack anything or anyone they dislike with a passion.

Corrupt,,, they are all corrupt to defend there heroes, 2 min later, Clinton Biden and his son etc are bent as f,, corrupt bast...
The old Chestnut, they are only in it for themselves.  they are all in it for themselves, all politicians are in it for themselves. any examples showing they are wrong are not considered as those people opposed something they support.

It's just your opinion. if they are lost for a reply then they can dismiss it with It's just your opinion.
I think we all know how the media let us down here especially over the last 6 yrs.
experts. Professors opinions seem to carry no weight with many people today. I was surprised when so many people nodded along with Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove when he said the Country has had enough of experts, I don't think we realized back then just how much influence the CT nutters was having on millions of people.


« Last Edit: June 5, 2021, 07:24:24 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Offline Wilmo

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #14 on: June 5, 2021, 07:18:48 pm »
If we assume it somehow went wrong, we first have to assume that it was, at some point, right in the first place, but I'm not sure it ever has been, really.

The common denominator is, of course, human beings. Whatever the good build, the shitheads will always undermine and destroy.

In my lifetime, where it really did go pear-shaped from was Thatcherism. She championed all that is negative, all that is selfish and all that is bad about human beings. She told us that greed was good. She told us it was acceptable to stand on others to get ahead. She ushered in the cult of self, self, self and made it not only acceptable, but desirable. She was a sociopath with a sociopathic ideology. What we have today is her legacy. A generally selfish, greedy, self-obsessed country of individuals out for themselves and without regard for the greater good of society. Remember, Thatcher proclaimed there was no such thing as society.

Thatcherism pandered to the lazy and the insecure. It's difficult to care because caring makes you vulnerable and opens you up to pain. Being constructive is a lot more difficult than being destructive. Being fair takes a lot more than being selfish. It takes a bigger person to be generous, and a lesser one to be full of personal greed. It takes more to achieve things the right way, but far less if you cheat or rob, and far less if you trample over others to get where you want to be. Well Thatcherism taught people that so long as they were scheming and 'working' it was ok to be greedy. OK to ride roughshod over others and ok to be as selfish as you liked because there was no such thing as society anyway. Her way appealed and still appeals to the lazy and the mean-spirited in life. The weak who can only feel strong by stomping on others.

What we have now is straight out of her philosophy. A vacuous, self-interested, self-absorbed, superficial world of insecure, plastic fakes who care only about themselves and what they have in a materialistic sense. A world of people who on the surface appear to have achieved, but underneath it all are deeply emotionally insecure and lacking in emotional maturity. All desperate for external attention and approval.

It's no surprise that when the pandemic first started we had to revert to socialist principles to see us through. Then, it was all ''we must stand together, we must support each other'' etc... Thing is, too many had no clue how to do that, because they've been taught for decades that looking after just yourself was fine and dandy. Instead, far too many resorted to hand-to-hand combat over a pack of toilet rolls in the Asda.

Thatcher was not the first sociopath to appeal to the basest human instincts and promote them as virtues, and she's certainly not been the last (look at Trump), but in my lifetime I've come to see her whole process play out and bear its poisonous fruit. The saddest thing for me is that vast swathes of the working class have also succumbed to her ideology and embraced it now too.

Fantastic post, and I think it's telling that you could swap out Thatcher/Thatcherism for Ayn Rand/Objectivism and still have a cogent argument.

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Offline spen71

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #15 on: June 5, 2021, 07:23:58 pm »
As Sons said much better than I ever could do.    ThatCher, greed and selfishness

Offline Macphisto80

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #16 on: June 5, 2021, 07:38:57 pm »
I'm only 29 but I'd say things went downhill from around 2010 onwards primarily. So much greed has ruined things like football since then. But society in general has become more selfish and idiotic with the rapid rise of social media.

Pretty much how I feel too whenever I've given thought to pinning down where and when I thought things started to decline. That extends to a lot of other things too that are often directly related to rich fuckers getting richer from as minimal as much effort as possible. In pop culture with things like music and art, I'd say that started around the mid 2000's. You had the oligarchs buying football teams. You had that pineapple-headed c*nt Simon Cowell on TV with his mates pumping out ready made glorified Karaoke singers that would go on to dominate and standardise mainstream music. Streaming services were popping up then too. Again, producing cheap, cookie-cutter films for massive profit. The cheaper, the shitter the better. Money, money, money. And then came Facebook and Twitter around 2008 to "popularise" and commercialise politics for the masses. Oh, boy! What could go wrong?!

As Son's brilliantly alluded to, the seeds, at least politically, were planted long ago.
« Last Edit: June 5, 2021, 07:43:17 pm by Macphisto80 »

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #17 on: June 5, 2021, 07:56:11 pm »
It's decades and decades of the same theme:  capitalism, technology, and globalization leading to selfishness and inequalities.  An American perspective (but will tie in some British stuff);

1. Manufacturing shifts
One of the things you always hear politicians speak of (particularly in places with a manufacturing history) is "jobs coming back."  "We need to create manufacturing jobs here."  But the reality is, it's mostly just talk.  The relentless drive for technological innovation to make as much profit as possible means a change in focus areas (places like the US and UK are known for its powerful services industry, financial industry, and tech).  Combine that with globalization, and you have the opportunity to create the most efficient supply chain possible.  Traditional "manufacturing" is replaced by more efficient automated manufacturing with a global chain.  An Apple iPhone isn't made in an assembly line or a factory in California.  It has design, tech, physical components (rare earths, gold, plastic, etc), assembly, testing, QA, sales, marketing, etc all around it.  Apple will make it as efficient as possible to make profit for shareholders.  The issue is, for maybe the first time, it's a very global process.  When Henry Ford started manufacturing and selling cars, he didn't use a global supply chain.  Apple today does.  In 1900, something like 40% of Americans lived on farms.  It's like 2% today.  But those that moved away into cities, suburbs, etc became part of the industrialization and growth of America.  However, when manufacturing became more efficient in the last several decades, it's not like all Americans went to work for banks or tech companies, because those companies knew how to utilize global resources.  So what if you were in Flint Michigan when GM closed a plant?  Well, if you have the skills, you can try to move into other high-end manufacturing or use functional skills (e.g. sales, marketing) to move industries.  If you didn't, you very well could be left behind.  Banks, Google, Apple, etc aren't spending decades training workers.  They can get workers from abroad, and they need since many of them compete globally anyway.  Manufacturing companies make things more efficient and global as they're also competing globally.  America actually had 2x the manufacturing output n 2016 compared to 1984 but used 3x fewer workers.

You also have industries like paper that are in decline just because of the technological advancements and economics.  Towns of thousands that relied on a paper mill may go into almost irreversible decline when the mills close.  If you're part of that town, it's not like you can just pack up and move to New York or Silicon Valley. 

2. Growth and Cuts
At the same time, a huge portion of the population benefits from growth and are willing to vote in politicians that cut taxes, public services, and the welfare programs (Reagan, Thatcher).  This creates an absolute fight for resources and growth that continues for decades.  "Haves" will want more and more while "Have Nots" have to made do with services that don't keep up with the times.

People didn't want to pay for services.  During the growth phase, you have the "business-friendly" politician.  Their goal is to bring jobs to the area, but often at the expense of long-term planning.  If you're a mayor/governor for four years, it's much easier to underfund services (those that disproportionately impact the poor) while cutting taxes.  You get hailed a genius job creator when you've actually done very little.  Then, you can run for higher office.  But all you're doing is leaving behind major issues for future politicians to solve.  One day, you wake up, and you live in a city where there's a massive wealth gap, public transit is a mess, homeless population is on the rise, and the city/state has no money.  The left-wing politician may get elected to solve this mess, but it's almost unsolvable because it's years and successive administrations' work (or lack of thereof) that caused this.  It's a microcosm of a nation as a whole.

3. Taking Action (or Not)

Left-wing politicians talk about major changes needed.  But they run into two problems:
1. Depending on where you are, the majority of people don't want massive changes.  A 55-year old homeowner, for example, may like home prices skyrocketing as he/she can sell it and retire somewhere nice.  They don't want massive tax rises, wealth taxes, etc or anything that could jeopardize their asset values.
2. Even in places where the population want major changes, left-wing politicians struggle to implement them as they're working on decades of the system that's in place.  You can't solve all these issues in the short-term, but if you don't, people get angry.  The right-wing then comes along and tells the public that the left-wing cannot govern.

Right-wing politicians understand this challenge.  They are not advocating for the changes that left-wing politicians are.  So their plans are the following:
1. Do nothing or cut taxes (tangible short-term benefit to those with assets)
2. Blame game (minorities, immigrants, illegal immigrants, foreign countries, etc)

Which of these political wings has it easier?

The right-wing in the UK had it down pat.  They cut services and then turned around and blamed it on the EU/immigrants.  They didn't say:  "I want to cut the NHS."  They said:  "We love the NHS but we could have it run better if the EU didn't take all our money.  British citizens first!"  Easy message.

Short-term interests will trump long-term planning.  Left-wing policies are focused on inclusivity (the right will respond and fuel culture wars) and longevity (Benefits of a $6 Trillion infrastructure bills don't show up on your next paycheck/tax bill immediately).  So it's always fighting a losing cause.  Even when they get into government, they cannot reverse decades of the trend of a system built on capitalism and globalization.

The Democrats have more leeway in America because the GOP is full-on off the deep end on social issues.  So much so that they've lost suburban voters.  America is also significantly more diverse than the UK (and many other countries), so the GOP's rhetoric doesn't go over well.  In addition, the GOP don't even talk up things like healthcare.  They talk about repealing Obamacare but not a replacement (which the Democrats used against them for their 2018 electoral success in the House).  If the GOP was more willing to embrace minorities with conservative leanings and had actual healthcare policies over the years, I'd wager they would be more dominant like the Tories.

4. The People

In the end, as time goes one, people are selfish:  a large chunk of the population don't like paying for things.  They simultaneously want the government to take care of every problem while paying less and less in taxes.  It means those that need government services the most get worse and worse services, but it doesn't impact the electorate enough (so far) for the mindset to shift. 

Left-wing policies are often popular, but when it comes to actual implementation, it's way harder (particularly if the right wants to interfere).  It only leads to a lot of delays, inefficiencies, etc, which only further emboldens the right to push to slash spending instead.  There's also a degree of Nimbyism present, even among left-leaning voters, particularly in America.  "Affordable housing and infrastructure spending sound good, but do it over there, not in my state/county/city/backyard."  Ezra Klein had an article in the NY Times about liberal governing, and it's something that's just very hard among a difficult electorate.  California governor Gavin Newsom pledged to build millions of houses in California but is way behind due to a variety of factors.  Some of those may be that Democratic homeowners don't want to see a massive supply of homes in their neighborhood, only a small number of expensive homes, so that home prices are preserved.  It's not like left-leaning people don't have their own selfish needs and wants.

Excerpt:
"When he ran for governor in 2018, Gavin Newsom promised the construction of 3.5 million housing units by 2025. Newsom won, but California has built fewer than 100,000 homes each year since.

Watching SB50, State Sen. Scott Wiener’s ambitious bill to allow dense construction near mass transit, fail has become an annual political ritual.

California talks a big game on climate change, but even with billions of dollars in federal funding, it couldn’t build high-speed rail between Los Angeles and San Francisco. The project was choked by pricey consultants, private land negotiations, endless environmental reviews, county governments suing the state government. It has been shrunk to a line connecting the midsize cities of Bakersfield and Merced, and even that is horribly over budget and behind schedule."

5. Rhetoric

Politicians know how hard it is to get things done, so they turn to blame rhetoric.  At the same time, you get social media, echo chambers, and other sources that promote all kinds of rhetoric.  It's easier for people to blame issues on others, outsiders, and the like, so these get popular.  New-age politicians embrace these ideas to get a mass following.  As a result:
-Congressmen that literally incited an insurrection are not only not punished but may actually be re-elected.
-Incompetent leaders that mishandled the pandemic actually gain in popularity.

Because actual solutions to everyday problems are hard, it's easier to convince the public through conspiracy theories and blame-game rhetoric.  So much of American (and British) problems are created by Americans (or British) themselves, but it's much easier to blame foreigners/communists/global cabal led by the Rothschilds.

As SoS pointed out above, when the pandemic hit, it revealed the problems underlying in society:
-People struggled to collectively come together
-Politicians were too used to doing nothing but playing the blame game and were incapable of governing.

It shouldn't be a surprise.  It's years and years in the making.
King Kenny.

Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #18 on: June 6, 2021, 12:29:20 am »
It's always been 'wrong' to some degree but the pandemic has really highlighted a lot of shortfalls, failures, and idiocy of the current world, alongside a lack of general want for equity, justice and equality. Just think of how many protests across the globe (ignoring the conspiracy weirdos) have occurred over the pandemic.

A lot of these wrongs are from the British empires and various other colonising western countries. The impacts of these Empires have continued to destablise many countries. The impacts of slavery continues to be trauma on the Black community. The impact of white supremacy continues to be felt by all non-white people.

I was raised pretty religious but I would say I'm indifferent to it now. But without meaning to offend people, I think fingers need to be pointed at all organised religions which are pretty regressive, controlling and often have people making baffling choices that seem to go against the morality and beliefs of that religion. As someone raised Hindu, you'd often see racism, colourism, casteism, anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment, Islamophobia, misogyny and beyond although on the face of it, all of these things seem to go against the morality of the religion on paper. That is learned behaviour that has passed down many generations.

The world needs a radical change at this point. I am pretty tired of 'sensible' centrists and generic liberals who just want to move the status quo slightly to the left whilst maintaining capitalism as it is. We need to do much better. Gen Z and to an extent millenials are a lot more 'activist' than any other age group, I hope this momentum continues and we can make progressive changes.

One thing of the current times I feel is a big problem is misinformation. There's just so much stupidness shared which may seem harmless but it often turns people in a wrong direction and next thing you know you're storming the Capitol thinking all Democrats eat babies. It truly is the misinformation age and I think more than a significant amount of people on either side of the political spectrum sometimes are unable, or unwilling, to consider the facts before ingesting 'information' of dubious sources. We are going to end up with a world split on perception.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 12:35:35 am by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #19 on: June 6, 2021, 12:31:34 am »
It's always been 'wrong' to some degree but the pandemic has really highlighted a lot of shortfalls, failures, and idiocy of the current world, alongside a lack of general want for equity, justice and equality.

A lot of these wrongs are from the British empires and various other colonising western countries. The impacts of these Empires have continued to destablise many countries. The impacts of slavery continues to be trauma on the Black community. The impact of white supremacy continues to be felt by all non-white people.

I was raised pretty religious but I would say I'm indifferent to it now. But without meaning to offend people, I think fingers need to be pointed at all organised religions which are pretty regressive, controlling and often have people making baffling choices that seem to go against the morality and beliefs of that religion. As someone raised Hindu, you'd often see racism, colourism, casteism, anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment, Islamophobia, misogyny and beyond although on the face of it, all of these things seem to go against the morality of the religion on paper. That is learned behaviour that has passed down many generations.

The world needs a radical change at this point. I am pretty tired of 'sensible' centrists and generic liberals who just want to move the status quo slightly to the left. We need to do much better.

A good illustration of why the right win.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #20 on: June 6, 2021, 12:38:41 am »
A good illustration of why the right win.

Sorry, it's incredibly naive to think the 'right win' because we demand more from left-wing politicians. More than a significant amount of this country voted Tory because of Brexit, immigration and straight up racism. I'm not sure why that's our problem. Besides, it's clear Labour have washed their hands of any actual Socialists or ethnic minorities under Starmer - and yet he is making zero progress, during an actual pandemic. Young people were incredibly engaged at one point. Now it's a feeling of apathy and despair.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 12:49:17 am by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #21 on: June 6, 2021, 12:39:24 am »
Because of Social Media, we don’t live in echo chambers anymore.

Twitter especially allows idiots to broadcast whatever scarily dangerous opinions they have with no consequence whatsoever. Social media has enabled these people to broadcast their hatred, and allows us to view their opinions. Ten years ago the things you heard were in public, in pubs and workplaces, and someone saying something downright disgusting would’ve at least got a stern talking to. Now, any attention seeking freak can post racist comments, jokes about disgusting things, or just general vitriolic bullshit from the comfort of an anonymous profile. Even if you don’t actively seek out this shite, it’ll find a way to come to you.

The quest for likes and attention has also lead to an increase of people trying to be something they’re not, striving to be a Kardashian rather than someone making a positive impact on society. Kids see influencers making thousands, being given free products and going on luxury holidays and that becomes the ideal.

It’s not the source of all evil, but it certainly contributes.

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #22 on: June 6, 2021, 12:45:55 am »
Because of Social Media, we don’t live in echo chambers anymore.

Twitter especially allows idiots to broadcast whatever scarily dangerous opinions they have with no consequence whatsoever. Social media has enabled these people to broadcast their hatred, and allows us to view their opinions. Ten years ago the things you heard were in public, in pubs and workplaces, and someone saying something downright disgusting would’ve at least got a stern talking to. Now, any attention seeking freak can post racist comments, jokes about disgusting things, or just general vitriolic bullshit from the comfort of an anonymous profile. Even if you don’t actively seek out this shite, it’ll find a way to come to you.

The quest for likes and attention has also lead to an increase of people trying to be something they’re not, striving to be a Kardashian rather than someone making a positive impact on society. Kids see influencers making thousands, being given free products and going on luxury holidays and that becomes the ideal.

It’s not the source of all evil, but it certainly contributes.

I know this isn't great but I'm not really sure it's the biggest issue in the world lol. The bad effects of this are body dysmorphia or mental health issues. But if kids think they may have the talent to become an influencer of some sort, they can try.  It's a valid career choice or a good side-hustle if you're good with it. Especially if you have a niche or talent that produces solid content. The influencer world has moved on anyway, a lot more focus is being made on mid-level influencers and people who produce actual content, instead of just some pretty model on a yacht.

I'm not a big Kardashian fan but Kim has done some good work on prison reform and just failed her bar exam. A lot of influencers tend to be pretty left-wing and will share information on social justice issues too. There is a place for them in the world, I just think they need to have a reality check and stop photoshopping their pictures and also be more genuine with their content. On top of that, we need to address some of the self-esteem issues kids too - which in my opinion isn't necessarily a result of influencers but probably exacerbated by it.

Many of us probably work jobs that probably don't give much 'positive' to society and we don't have the reach some of these people have beyond our immediate social media circles.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 12:52:46 am by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #23 on: June 6, 2021, 12:49:45 am »
Sorry, it's incredibly naive to think the 'right win' because we demand more from left-wing politicians. More than a significant amount of this country voted Tory because of Brexit, immigration and straight up racism. I'm not sure why that's our problem. Besides, it's clear Labour have washed their hands of any actual Socialists or ethnic minorities under Starmer - and yet he is making zero progress, during an actual pandemic.

Have a look at the US, the closest to our political outlook.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #24 on: June 6, 2021, 12:51:55 am »
Have a look at the US, the closest to our political outlook.

Biden is centre-right and arguably Starmer is somewhere around there too. What is your point?
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #25 on: June 6, 2021, 12:52:54 am »
Biden is centre-right and arguably Starmer is somewhere around there too. What is your point?

This and your above post is an illustration of why the right win.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #26 on: June 6, 2021, 12:53:59 am »
This and your above post is an illustration of why the right win.

Sorry, we should entirely stop trying to push the needle and accept whatever we get. Great.

Starmer is not going to win the next election not because of young progressive people, but just for being completely inept and miserable old people voting Tory because this country loves misery and hating on immigrants.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 12:58:30 am by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #27 on: June 6, 2021, 01:01:01 am »
Sorry, we should entirely stop trying to push the needle and accept whatever we get. Great.

Starmer is not going to win the next election not because of young progressive people, but just for being completely inept and miserable old people voting Tory because this country loves misery and hating on immigrants.

And when the left win because of a coalition of left and right as in the US, the proper left deem this not a proper win because the winner is centre right. Nothing is good enough for them, so the real right and far right get a free path to power.

"Biden is centre-right".
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #28 on: June 6, 2021, 01:22:18 am »
And when the left win because of a coalition of left and right as in the US, the proper left deem this not a proper win because the winner is centre right. Nothing is good enough for them, so the real right and far right get a free path to power.

"Biden is centre-right".

I'm not sure how you are continuing to place blame on losing elections on us wanting something different? This thread is literally about what is 'going wrong' and that includes the current state of politics on either side of the spectrum - it is continuing to go wrong, whether left or right are elected. The broad 'left' are not losing elections because of us, they are losing because a significant amount of the population is drawn in by right-wing populism.

This is a really boomer Guardian argument. If you wanted somewhere basic to place blame, you could perhaps consider that by popular vote a combination of all the 'left wing' parties in the UK was higher than the Tories. Yet the FPTP system stifles that - and the Tories know they have an advantage at winning under that system. They are able to game that system well and people came out to vote because of Brexit, immigration and the usual conservative nonsense.

Biden is centre-right, so was Obama. They won their elections. Hillary Clinton didn't lose her election because of the progressive left. She lost it because Trumpers were emboldened by his brand of populism which struck a tone and a scourge of misinformation and conspiracy. People came out for Biden not because they believed in him, but because of Trump bringing out white supremacy. If he fails to deliver progressive change nobody should be placing blame on people that get disengaged or stop caring.

But the whole of US politics is pretty skewed anyway against ours. Even Bernie wasn't exactly super left-wing like he's made out to be.

Left wing politicians should not be expecting our votes without reason. This generation is a lot more radical than others - but to place blame on us being the sole reason for 'not winning' is incredibly naive.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 01:27:36 am by RainbowFlick »
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #29 on: June 6, 2021, 02:32:49 am »
Biden is centre-right and arguably Starmer is somewhere around there too. What is your point?

'Biden is centre-right'

 :lmao

The fact that you think that Bernie Sanders isn't exactly 'super left-wing' too makes me think that you long for some utopian left-wing society that is never going to come into fruition.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 02:35:09 am by Caligula? »

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #30 on: June 6, 2021, 06:38:15 am »
Rainbow is correct though. Both labour and the democrats have moved to centrist politics. With labour, this happend most pronounced under Cameron. The traditional moderate-left position has been abandoned. The most striking number to show that is the 48% who voted Remain and who no party wanted to support. What compounds the problem is that part of the traditionally left-voting working class population is now voting far right.


However, I don't think the fundamental problems we are talking here can be solved by changing who's in power. This isn't just a problem of political representation, rather, the politics reflect what's going wrong in society.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 07:23:12 am by redbyrdz »
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #31 on: June 6, 2021, 07:21:24 am »
Sorry, it's incredibly naive to think the 'right win' because we demand more from left-wing politicians. More than a significant amount of this country voted Tory because of Brexit, immigration and straight up racism. I'm not sure why that's our problem. Besides, it's clear Labour have washed their hands of any actual Socialists or ethnic minorities under Starmer - and yet he is making zero progress, during an actual pandemic. Young people were incredibly engaged at one point. Now it's a feeling of apathy and despair.
The 'young people were incredibly engaged at one point' is bullshit, they still never went out and voted.

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #32 on: June 6, 2021, 07:32:37 am »
1979 and 2008.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #33 on: June 6, 2021, 08:00:04 am »
I've been involved in nature conservation for the past 10 years, and would say my own, and my colleagues work is mainly pointless, unless we change our economic model (capitalism).

Capitalism encourages wanton destruction of the things we should value the most.

You can go back to the Industrial Revolution to when we started to fundamentally change the planet and society.

Change is coming, whether we like it or not.  We can either choose the changes we make, or have them forced upon us.

I'm heavily involved in sustainability, and there's real dialoge now about things such as a flexible, 4-day working week and Universal Basic Services.  These ideas were labelled as "loony left"just a few years ago, now they are being discussed in the mainstream.

People that say humans are the problem are totally wrong, and that notion is just a piece of Right-wing propaganda.  We can choose to do good, or bad.  We can choose what is socially acceptable or not.  We can pressurise the governments.  As a collective, you'll be surprised what can be achieved.

I'm very encouraged by the activism amongst the younger generations.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 09:39:32 am by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #34 on: June 6, 2021, 08:06:51 am »
When people started thinking everything was someone else's responsibility to sort out rather than mucking in together to get shit done.

We're very quick to blame.

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #35 on: June 6, 2021, 08:16:54 am »
the youth

always moaning about war violence racism the environment

yet play vastly aggressive war-like games where they not only kill other beings but do so on a gory level

then buy from ebay and amazon and fuel the fascist states like china

buy throw-away clothing that's made by little children in india and asia

live a narcissistic superficial life through social media where they travel the world using transport of the most polluting kind imaginable just so they can post a selfie on instagram or fb

alter their youthful faces with poisons so they can look perfect and make everyone else feel inferior

constantly us mobile phones which house batteries that take 100s of years to break down

only communicate through media that is funded by immoral corrupt non-tax paying mobile companies and their web-based evil counterparts

you have to remember that the children are our future - who said that now? whitney was it? a drug-riddled narcissist herself who died of an overdose

but if that's what our kids are being exposed to and it's being dressed up all in pretty ribbons and bows then WE are the downfall of our own society

the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men (and women) to do nothing

every phone you buy

every comment you post

every thing you say

they'll be watching you
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #36 on: June 6, 2021, 09:04:24 am »
the youth



So you blame the youth for all the issues we've created over the past 200 years, and for the society we live in today?  All the ecological, environmental and societal injustices are their fault?


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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #37 on: June 6, 2021, 09:23:44 am »
Not sure you can say things have 'gone wrong' - I think they have just 'gone'

People seem to forget just how 'bad' things used to be. People have got more rights and freedom today than most of the history of the world.

You only have to go back to the 20s or 30s or 40s or 50s or 60s or 70s to see just how different the world is.

The thing is that it's a constant battle between Governments (Who want all the power, influence and control), Corporations and Businenss (Who want all the power, influence and control) and individuals (Who want all the power, influence and control)

I actually think that things are better now - this has been muddied in the UK by the Tory government being in power for any length of time. Their aim is to reduce the money that is spent on 'stuff' - and they don't really care what that 'stuff' is. In their case it's self-defeating because they'll "save" £500M on 'something' only to find that the reason that 'something' was put in place was to save £1BN indirectly and in doing so made people's lives better and helped society.

Generally I'd say that Tories are anti-society and pro-individual - if the individual is selfish, fucks people over and destroys the planet then that's fine and good in Tory land - it's Dog-eat-dog and fuck the world, fuck everyone. It's everyone against everyone else and if everyone loses then that's oK as long as you win. They can't see why money should be paid out to people under any circumstances because they think that if you're in a bad place then it's your own fault and you have to take responbility for that - there is no such thing as bad luck, just people that don't deserve anythnig. They want true freedom for everyone to do what they want and they want to shrink the state so that any expenditure is questioned. They'd rather people sort out their own health model and insurance model and don't give a shiny shite if you can't afford it and die. They don't want people to have loads of kids because they don't see why they should pay for them. In fact - you can carry that idea on - they don't see why they should pay tax at all if it doesn't direclty and completely benefit themselves. Dog-eat-dog. Everyone for themeslves. Fuck the world and fuck everyone except yourself, your family and maybe your local community.

Labour are generally opposed to that, the Lib-dems play both camps. The Greens are concerned with the environment and other parties have their own pluses-and-minuses.

A game I like playing (That is a real eye-opener is called 'Democracy 3' and is on Steam for less than £20 and you can get version 4 now as well - it shows that ideals and what you want to do really does depend on you choosing one thing over another, but the whole thing is a lot more complicated than you might think and every thing affects every other thing - if you're into politics then it's worth a look.



So.. Is the world more fucked today than it ever has been? No

Do people generally have better lives and more rights than they used to? Yes

Are the youth today worse than they used to be? No

Are there fewer jobs and worse this and worse that and worse the other? No, not really - everything is transient - the world never stops - there never is balance and there never is and never will be an 'end-state' - the reason for the conflict of the right and left is to have some kind of balance - in the US that's way more rightward, in the UK it's heading right-ward but is likely to get pulled back to the centre where your 'normal' bod gets fed up with it.



And that takes me to what is 'normal' what is the 'centre' and it's impossible to answer in any context, but I'd say that (in western democracies at least) then what is 'OK' has to pass the test of the average bod on the street that doesn't give a shit about politicis - once there is a mainstream idea that something is 'good' or 'bad' then that's what ends up being acted on.


And that takes me to the Media and to Social Media - the influence and the power that these platforms hold cannot be understated as they in many cases fuel the ideas of what is 'good' and 'bad' and what 'helps' people and their country and what 'doesn't help' people and their country. Ruling by majority fails when the majority are being manipulated and lied to at every stage. When you then have people that talk and share information and data which may or may no be true with other peopel that may or may not alter the data further then it very quckly becomes very difficult to decide what is really happening, if your views match reality, why people think what they think, why your ideas of 'good and evil' are rejected by some and embraced by others and why 'fairness' becomes even more subjective than before.



There is no easy answer and it's difficult to say what way the wind will blow. If everyone had an open mind and everyone was a bit suspcicious of every bit of news they saw then we'd probably all be a bit better off.


Which takes me to the world in general - the world has always been a fucked up place since humanity arrived - are there atrocities going on in it? Yep. Has there always been? Yep. Will there always be? Yep.


Is it better or worse than it was 10 or 50 or 100 years ago? All subjective and who really knows..? I'd say not worse, but I'm not an expert.. Who is?

« Last Edit: June 6, 2021, 10:52:40 am by Camping in a pub in Allerton »
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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #38 on: June 6, 2021, 09:37:03 am »
Biden is centre-right and arguably Starmer is somewhere around there too. What is your point?

America has always been far, far, far, far more rightwing than the Tory party.

If you think that Starmer is anywhere near that far right then I'd like to see your reasoning..


This is something that gives you a good overview:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum 
This is an interesting read as well: http://factmyth.com/the-left-right-political-spectrum-explained/


This is an interesting diagram as well






With all these things, the writer and the view of the writer will always skew the ideals and meanings. For instance;

- In the Uk I quite often see people say that Fascism and Conservatism are the same thing. They clearly aren't.

- In the US I quite often see people say that Communism and Socialism are the same thing. They clearly aren't.



In the case where you have taken two different countries with two entirely different political systems and two entirely different mindets and have made them the same in your head then you are falling into the same trap - your ideas of left and right don't seem to tally up - but then again, read those things I included and not many of them will agree.

What is right? What is left? You also see Liberty/Slavery/Freedom/Government/Control used interchangeably - it's a fascinating subject and I have to hold my hands up and admit that although I've read a lot and I've (I think!) learned a lot - the more you look into it - the more complicated and detailed it is.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Where Did It All Go Wrong.
« Reply #39 on: June 6, 2021, 09:49:11 am »
America has always been far, far, far, far more rightwing than the Tory party.

If you think that Starmer is anywhere near that far right then I'd like to see your reasoning..


This is something that gives you a good overview:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum 
This is an interesting read as well: http://factmyth.com/the-left-right-political-spectrum-explained/


This is an interesting diagram as well






With all these things, the writer and the view of the writer will always skew the ideals and meanings. For instance;

- In the Uk I quite often see people say that Fascism and Conservatism are the same thing. They clearly aren't.

- In the US I quite often see people say that Communism and Socialism are the same thing. They clearly aren't.



In the case where you have taken two different countries with two entirely different political systems and two entirely different mindets and have made them the same in your head then you are falling into the same trap - your ideas of left and right don't seem to tally up - but then again, read those things I included and not many of them will agree.

What is right? What is left? You also see Liberty/Slavery/Freedom/Government/Control used interchangeably - it's a fascinating subject and I have to hold my hands up and admit that although I've read a lot and I've (I think!) learned a lot - the more you look into it - the more complicated and detailed it is.

And more to my point which Rainbow missed, Biden won in the US because of a coalition between the centre-left (by US standards), the "proper left" who did not contest so as to leave one candidate clear against Trump, and those conservatives who could not stomach Trump. That's the country closest to us in outlook, whom both the left and right look to for direction and precedent.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258