Poll

Tory Christmas Party

Nothing like a good old knees up!
They should apologise and come clean
Johnson should resign
The front bench should resign
The entire party should resign
The entire party should be put in an Elon Musk rocket and fired off to jupiter with 2 packets of hula hoops and a pot noodle
I LOVE cheese!

Author Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!  (Read 1158242 times)

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #40 on: December 2, 2019, 08:58:49 am »
The Scandinavians must live in a Disney cartoon. Thats not the reality for the rest of us.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #41 on: December 2, 2019, 09:11:44 am »
The Scandinavians must live in a Disney cartoon. Thats not the reality for the rest of us.

We, in the UK, do seem to have pushed things further than other countries though. There`s been a crusade against the left for as long as i can remember.

A definite pushback against all the hard won concessions post-war, post-empire. Look at the triumphilism of the defeat of the unions by Thatcher and supported by normal people. Monetarism, extreme capitalism and the promotion of self over society etc.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #42 on: December 2, 2019, 09:13:22 am »
The Scandinavians must live in a Disney cartoon. Thats not the reality for the rest of us.

No - they just act like adults and give a shit about other people. We are far more cartoon-like in our politics.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #43 on: December 2, 2019, 09:23:17 am »
I could see a lot of people getting as far as, 'we are a high taxing nation' and then forlornly wandering off to tidy their sock draw or something.

I'd like to know what their media, particularly their newspapers, are like. who are the proprietors and what kind of relationship they have with the government etc. Or is it just down to us lot being a hopeless crowd of knuckle draggers.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #44 on: December 2, 2019, 09:34:41 am »
No - they just act like adults and give a shit about other people. We are far more cartoon-like in our politics.

We get the politicians we deserve. They are like parasites that feed on the behaviours that we illustrate the most.

I have mentioned before that I did some campaigning for the Remain campaign and most of the voters I spoke to always asked what would happen if the vote went the other way rather than the way they would vote.

The campaigns knew this fear is prevalent in the miserable outlook of the British and look to play on this. I was told to really push home how much it would cost us financially if they voted Leave. I was even told to tell immigrants that should we vote leave that no more Europeans would be allowed into the country and tell the ones who didn't speak the best of English that they would get kicked out completely after we voted Leave. Even if Frottage became PM, that was never happening.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #45 on: December 2, 2019, 09:38:44 am »
We get the politicians we deserve. They are like parasites that feed on the behaviours that we illustrate the most.

I have mentioned before that I did some campaigning for the Remain campaign and most of the voters I spoke to always asked what would happen if the vote went the other way rather than the way they would vote.

The campaigns knew this fear is prevalent in the miserable outlook of the British and look to play on this. I was told to really push home how much it would cost us financially if they voted Leave. I was even told to tell immigrants that should we vote leave that no more Europeans would be allowed into the country and tell the ones who didn't speak the best of English that they would get kicked out completely after we voted Leave. Even if Frottage became PM, that was never happening.
You seem like a trusting sort of fella. :)
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #46 on: December 2, 2019, 09:40:55 am »
You seem like a trusting sort of fella. :)

I used the financial line quite a bit but never in a million years was I telling anyone that they were going to get kicked out of the country if we voted out. That was taking things too far to win this vote. However, considering the amount of immigrants who I spoke to who didn't like immigration, I reckon I probably should have done and won some more votes.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #47 on: December 2, 2019, 09:43:46 am »
I used the financial line quite a bit but never in a million years was I telling anyone that they were going to get kicked out of the country if we voted out. That was taking things too far to win this vote. However, considering the amount of immigrants who I spoke to who didn't like immigration, I reckon I probably should have done and won some more votes.
Did you find a big difference in voting intention between EU immigrants and African/Asian immigrants?
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #48 on: December 2, 2019, 09:50:19 am »
Did you find a big difference in voting intention between EU immigrants and African/Asian immigrants?

I spoke to more African/Asian immigrants because of the areas I campaigned in and generally they were more heavily against immigration and not surprisingly those from Eastern Europe. However I spoke to a decent amount of Poles and they didn't want more Poles here either.

They weren't against all immigrants. Whether you were Asian, African or Eastern European, they all loved the French, Spanish, Portuguese, German etc. Nobody liked the Eastern Europeans though.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #49 on: December 2, 2019, 09:57:46 am »
I quite like John Harris, his observations and musings are always readable and he seems to know what he's talking about, and all without being provocatively attention seeking and gobby (are you listening Jones?)...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/02/labour-red-wall-brexit-progressive-industrial-england

Gloomy, but with a hint of realism about the current state of things in the traditional heartlands and what it may portend for the future.
« Last Edit: December 2, 2019, 10:03:10 am by The Gulleysucker »
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #50 on: December 2, 2019, 10:46:56 am »
I could see a lot of people getting as far as, 'we are a high taxing nation' and then forlornly wandering off to tidy their sock draw or something.

I'd like to know what their media, particularly their newspapers, are like. who are the proprietors and what kind of relationship they have with the government etc. Or is it just down to us lot being a hopeless crowd of knuckle draggers.

To an extent that is even still where Labour are campaigning now, they have pushed very hard with their messaging that the vast majority of people will not see tax increases. People may continually say they are willing to pay more for improved public services, but there is still a fear amongst politicans that when it really comes down to it most will vote with their back pocket.

When a country like Denmark is described as high tax it really does mean for everyone, I'm not sure we remotely have that level of feeling of working towards a better shared future in the UK to make that work.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #51 on: December 2, 2019, 10:51:34 am »
I quite like John Harris, his observations and musings are always readable and he seems to know what he's talking about, and all without being provocatively attention seeking and gobby (are you listening Jones?)...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/02/labour-red-wall-brexit-progressive-industrial-england

Gloomy, but with a hint of realism about the current state of things in the traditional heartlands and what it may portend for the future.

Harris is always well worth a read, he tends to get pretty honest responses from people as well, by not being preachy to those he interacts with.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #52 on: December 2, 2019, 10:52:26 am »
I quite like John Harris, his observations and musings are always readable and he seems to know what he's talking about, and all without being provocatively attention seeking and gobby (are you listening Jones?)...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/02/labour-red-wall-brexit-progressive-industrial-england

Gloomy, but with a hint of realism about the current state of things in the traditional heartlands and what it may portend for the future.
Sometimes it seems to me that not only have we got to go through this madness, but we may have to go through it in it's most extreme form - and this looks like it's already starting with the new border requirements being touted.

It feels like telling your kids not to put their hands into the fire isn't enough, we're going to actually have to thrust our kids hands into the fire.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #53 on: December 2, 2019, 11:12:19 am »
Harris is always well worth a read, he tends to get pretty honest responses from people as well, by not being preachy to those he interacts with.

Exactly, he's more of an explainer as to what things are rather than the likes of Jones who thinks of himself as very much in the influencer category of journalism.

Two distinct styles, Jones would ask, and likely in a condescending and haranguing manner "Why aren't you voting Labour?" with the unsaid inference that it's inconceivable that anyone shouldn't agree with himself, while Harris instead seems genuinely interested as to what the lie of the land actually is and then reports on his findings for you to digest and make your own conclusions.

I posted up his (Harris) musings the other year on one of the now closed threads when he wandered around a few places each week seeking out opinions and intents. It was all good and informative.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #54 on: December 2, 2019, 11:27:13 am »
Exactly, he's more of an explainer as to what things are rather than the likes of Jones who thinks of himself as very much in the influencer category of journalism.

Two distinct styles, Jones would ask, and likely in a condescending and haranguing manner "Why aren't you voting Labour?" with the unsaid inference that it's inconceivable that anyone shouldn't agree with himself, while Harris instead seems genuinely interested as to what the lie of the land actually is and then reports on his findings for you to digest and make your own conclusions.

I posted up his (Harris) musings the other year on one of the now closed threads when he wandered around a few places each week seeking out opinions and intents. It was all good and informative.
Jones influences me - just not in the direction he thinks.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #55 on: December 2, 2019, 11:49:12 am »
Brexit party MEP being interviewed by BBC, he says one of the biggest myths is the Brexit party wants to bring in a insurance based system for the NHS,  maybe he should have a chat with Frottage as thats exactly what he wants. video below.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/12/film-nigel-Frottage-insurance-based-nhs-private-companies
« Last Edit: December 2, 2019, 11:51:02 am by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #56 on: December 2, 2019, 11:52:23 am »
No - they just act like adults and give a shit about other people. We are far more cartoon-like in our politics.
Thanks for posting that article about Denmark.

I've long thought that we need to have sensible debates about the type of society we want, and how much it costs.

We need to move the debate from ridiculous measures such as income tax levels. All we've had over decades is politicians pledging not to raise "income tax" and then spend ages thinking of ever more convoluted ways to tax people.

I wonder what the Danes would make of the likes of Johnson, Frottage and Co

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #57 on: December 2, 2019, 12:16:42 pm »
Two distinct styles, Jones would ask, and likely in a condescending and haranguing manner "Why aren't you voting Labour?" with the unsaid inference that it's inconceivable that anyone shouldn't agree with himself, while Harris instead seems genuinely interested as to what the lie of the land actually is and then reports on his findings for you to digest and make your own conclusions.
The Jones headline would be (probably will be, before election day), "Why you MUST vote Labour". He likes the word MUST, particularly when he can guilt trip his readers with it, as if everyone to the left of Genghis Khan doesn't comply, the world as we know it will end.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #58 on: December 2, 2019, 12:48:32 pm »
Bit like the ones Black voters had to undergo in Missippi prior to Equalities laws?

I was joking, but that's a false equivalence.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #59 on: December 2, 2019, 01:05:25 pm »
Owen Jones is a c*nt. He is quick to guilt trip Lib Dem, Greens and even Plyd supporters into standing down candidates but not one peep out of him to do it the other way, like in Raab’s seat where Labour are polling at around 10%.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #60 on: December 2, 2019, 01:17:42 pm »
Owen Jones is a c*nt. He is quick to guilt trip Lib Dem, Greens and even Plyd supporters into standing down candidates but not one peep out of him to do it the other way, like in Raab’s seat where Labour are polling at around 10%.

Isn't it in the Labour Party constitution that they stand in every seat? (I have not read the constitution, just seen this quoted elsewhere).

But yes, even if so, they could ask supporters to back the Lib Dem candidate. Raab could be in some trouble in Esher.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #61 on: December 2, 2019, 01:29:03 pm »
I was joking, but that's a false equivalence.

So you were jokingly suggesting people whose political views you don't agree with should have to undergo a test befote they vote. OK.

However you said my example was a false equivalence. The Jim Crow laws in the 1950s led to black voters having to face the voter registration test. The tests varied from state to state, but typically involved a multiple choice exam on state and federal politics and history, and a literacy test.

i can't see how that's a false equivalence?

 

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #62 on: December 2, 2019, 01:36:40 pm »
Isn't it in the Labour Party constitution that they stand in every seat? (I have not read the constitution, just seen this quoted elsewhere).

But yes, even if so, they could ask supporters to back the Lib Dem candidate. Raab could be in some trouble in Esher.


Yes it is, but the hypocrisy is staggering. He is basically guilt tripping everyone to vote Labour. Him and his cronies already have their Word templates of blame set up blaming Remain voters for losing on December 12/13th.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #63 on: December 2, 2019, 01:49:30 pm »
Yes it is, but the hypocrisy is staggering. He is basically guilt tripping everyone to vote Labour. Him and his cronies already have their Word templates of blame set up blaming Remain voters for losing on December 12/13th.

Bloody Remain voters coming over here and wanting the best for peoples jobs, security, health and economy
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #64 on: December 2, 2019, 02:26:00 pm »
Yes it is, but the hypocrisy is staggering. He is basically guilt tripping everyone to vote Labour. Him and his cronies already have their Word templates of blame set up blaming Remain voters for losing on December 12/13th.

He's a liar, a charlatan and a disgrace. The sooner people like him and Bastani are back in the bin where they belong the better. It's tripe like those two, and then Hartley-Brewers and Oakeshott as their mirror images who've done such damage to discourse in this country. Telling people to fuck off for years and then guilt tripping them when they do fuck off.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #65 on: December 2, 2019, 02:49:57 pm »
Westminster Voting Intention:

CON: 42% (+1)
LAB: 35% (+1)
LDM: 13% (=)
BXP: 3% (-1)

Via @ICMResearch, 29 Nov-2 Dec.
Changes w/ 22-25 Nov.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #66 on: December 2, 2019, 03:04:29 pm »
Westminster Voting Intention:

CON: 42% (+1)
LAB: 35% (+1)
LDM: 13% (=)
BXP: 3% (-1)

Via @ICMResearch, 29 Nov-2 Dec.
Changes w/ 22-25 Nov.


I find it incredible the people in the UK that can see all the lies, hypocrisy, double-dealing, shifty lack of morals and opportunism that Johnson offers yet seem Ok to vote for him.

It's said that many right-wing Conservatives are Christian and have a deep moral view on Families and the like - how can they vote for this man?

Just very odd.
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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #67 on: December 2, 2019, 03:22:54 pm »
I find it incredible the people in the UK that can see all the lies, hypocrisy, double-dealing, shifty lack of morals and opportunism that Johnson offers yet seem Ok to vote for him.

It's said that many right-wing Conservatives are Christian and have a deep moral view on Families and the like - how can they vote for this man?

Just very odd.

I guess we are learning from the US where people hide some hugely nasty social views behind a pretty fake veneer of Christianity, and are happy to elect some pretty nasty people as a result.

Locally I have reached the stage where I would be surprised if Labour don't pick up Chingford and Woodford Green.

LDs are running a candidate in name only, no push for them at all, and Labour are clearly throwing everything at this one, was canvassed once before I went off on holiday, and had 2 more canvassing visits while away. I'm not sure that is the best use of canvassing resources when there are other seats in the outer North London ring that they should be fighting hard in as well, but I think it will pay off for them here. We even have Hugh Grant helping them with a rally this week.

Tories on the other hand just don't have much of a ground game at all (unsurprisingly given their member numbers and their age!), with the national polls closing I think Labour should be optimistic on this one, surprised to see nobody doing a consituency poll for it yet, just dependant on MRP models so far. I suppose the only proviso is that I do live in part of the seat which is a bit more Labour-friendly, so maybe getting a slightly misleading impression.

It was pretty much a 50:50 Leave:Remain seat in 2016, but demographic change is helping Labour here too, a lot of people moving out from Hackney etc, in search of slightly more value for Housing, I would imagine Chingford itself remains pretty true blue though.
« Last Edit: December 2, 2019, 03:28:33 pm by filopastry »

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #68 on: December 2, 2019, 03:27:07 pm »
A personal theory of mine is that one of the main reasons why Scandinavia is more evolved in it's way of thinking as a society, is maybe because that it has never been infested with/adopted any of the modern religions; Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.

The monarch of Denmark adopted Catholicism in the Middle Ages I think, to prevent an invasion, but they never really bought into it.
« Last Edit: December 2, 2019, 06:51:37 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #69 on: December 2, 2019, 04:12:32 pm »
A personal theory of mine is that one of the main reasons why Scandinavia is more evolved in it's way of thinking as a society, is maybe because that it has never been infested with/adopted any of the modern religions; Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.

The monarch of Norway adopted Catholicism in the Middle Ages I think, to prevent an invasion, but they never really bought into it.

Thor and Odin were a pretty warlike bunch!


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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #70 on: December 2, 2019, 04:24:21 pm »
Our constituency is going to be mighty close again. Last time Labour had a majority of 209, but the BAE factor might swing it for the tories. Quite a lot of jobs have been created there in recent years. I am encouraged however by the amount of Labour posters and signs that are popping up at peoples houses in my town and the new Labour MP is ex military who wants to support the shipyard in Barrow.

Just hope he doesn't turn out to be a closet tory like the last two. John Woodcock is now working for the government and John Hutton ended up working with the coalition government after he quit as an MP and became head of the pensions committee that was responsible for raising the pension age again. For that he then became a Lord.

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #71 on: December 2, 2019, 05:12:39 pm »
Been reading that Labour are gaining from the Liberals as per the latest poll but as weird as this sounds, a closer poll is potentially good news for the tories unfortunately. Those shifts from lib to lab are likely to be in Tory/Lib marginals which will ultimately split the labour vote. Liberals don’t tend to do well in The midlands and north so as long as Johnson holds his ground there, can’t see him losing his potential majority. Very much doubt Labour are making much direct ground on the Tories.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #72 on: December 2, 2019, 05:21:29 pm »
Raab would be in real danger of losing his seat if Labour held back there.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #73 on: December 2, 2019, 05:30:27 pm »
A personal theory of mine is that one of the main reasons why Scandinavia is more evolved in it's way of thinking as a society, is maybe because that it has never been infested with/adopted any of the modern religions; Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.

The monarch of Norway adopted Catholicism in the Middle Ages I think, to prevent an invasion, but they never really bought into it.

I don't think that's true. My brother is now a danish citizen and has lived there for forty years. He's an atheist himself but Christianity is still an important part of society and rights of passage. His Danish family have the 'CofE' attitude towards religion - it was assimilated into pagan festivals and it's as much social as religious.

I've certainly not seen the fundamentalist Christianity that's typical of the religious right in the US.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #74 on: December 2, 2019, 05:33:45 pm »
I find it incredible the people in the UK that can see all the lies, hypocrisy, double-dealing, shifty lack of morals and opportunism that Johnson offers yet seem Ok to vote for him.

It's said that many right-wing Conservatives are Christian and have a deep moral view on Families and the like - how can they vote for this man?

Just very odd.
I got defriended (unfriended?) by a much younger cousin on Facebook a couple of days ago. I don't even argue politics on Facebook, and very rarely interact with this cousin (and don't think I've actually met him since he was about 2). His entire side of the family are Tories. He posted a video of Johnson saying the NHS isn't for sale, with the comment 'simple'. I said he must be, if he believed that. Ranted at me for 'calling a member of your own family simple'. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson would call him a 'tank topped bumboy', and his direct family have called him worse. But somehow he reckons he's made the big time on his ~£25-30k pa and is better off under the Tories.

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Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #75 on: December 2, 2019, 05:52:29 pm »

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #76 on: December 2, 2019, 06:10:11 pm »
https://twitter.com/uklabour/status/1201547554992873472?s=21

Absolutely fucking shameless

Fucking Lavery ,of all the people the "brains" at Labour HQ thought he was the man for this. ::)
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #77 on: December 2, 2019, 06:13:25 pm »
Ah... the chief thief  himself
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #78 on: December 2, 2019, 06:16:25 pm »

Simply staggering.

For those who are unaware of his background, read this ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41688280
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Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Re: Politics thread III
« Reply #79 on: December 2, 2019, 06:20:03 pm »
Fucking Lavery ,of all the people the "brains" at Labour HQ thought he was the man for this. ::)
id guess it’s because he doesn’t talk like a private school poshboy, so go for the most working class one