Author Topic: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?  (Read 61832 times)

Offline vagabond

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #160 on: February 20, 2019, 01:08:59 pm »
I think that she has already stated she isnt a victim.

And victims of Stockholm Syndrome say the same thing. We're not going to ignore all of modern psychology are we?
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #161 on: February 20, 2019, 01:12:52 pm »
Do you want the UK to be able to deport foreign criminals/terrorists?

Id need to know the case. In this case no. I would put her on remand before trial.

Why do you ask, I havn't indicated such an opinion?
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #162 on: February 20, 2019, 01:17:16 pm »
We're not going to ignore all of modern psychology are we?

Of course we will when it suits our political agenda, moral outrage etc
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #163 on: February 20, 2019, 01:22:20 pm »
And victims of Stockholm Syndrome say the same thing. We're not going to ignore all of modern psychology are we?

 :lmao :butt

Stockholm syndrome is when you develop a relationship with a Hostage during capture.
She fled to the Middle East on her own accord.

Why are people so hell bent in excusing her actions?
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #164 on: February 20, 2019, 01:23:00 pm »
Which is why she hasn't committed a crime until she steps foot back on UK soil where she can be tried in a criminal court. Until she does then she is innocent until she is proven guilty.

I am in no way defending her actions. Being a part of a terrorist organisation is a crime and should be eradicated. But, revoking citizenship without a hearing or being given fair chance to explain her actions in front of those that can make an independent judgement based in law is wrong.

Not taking particular issue with your points and we are rightly discussing the legality of her situation but what I find reprehensible is her complete lack of morality.

That comment about heads in waste bins shows an almost pyschopathic disregard for mormal behaviour. Those heads belonged to innocent human beings - well innocent under our interpretaion of the law anyway.

Other ISIS fellow travellers have returned quietly and without fanfare. For some reason she has been advised to put her head above the parapet. Unfortunately badly advised because her mixture of smug, arrogant entitlement, combined with the fact she appears increasingly think, hasn't worked.

I'm sure she'll worm her way back but, if she'd had kept her mouth shut she'd be back sooner rather than later.

Offline vagabond

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #165 on: February 20, 2019, 01:28:58 pm »
:lmao :butt

Stockholm syndrome is when you develop a relationship with a Hostage during capture.
She fled to the Middle East on her own accord.

Why are people so hell bent in excusing her actions?

Let me clarify: Stockholm Syndrome was cited as an analogy, not a diagnosis of her situation.

Look, I can understand the anger at ISIS, and I can understand the anger towards fellow citizens wanting to join ISIS (especially because I know that every time something like this happens, Islamophobic abuse goes up and people of my skin colour will suffer).

What I don't understand is why we can't accept that grooming is a real thing, that people can be victims and take time to recover, that human psychology is a messy thing (especially for teenagers). She may have done many heinous things since becoming an adult for which she should be fully prosecuted. But it is strange to me that people want to blame her for going there in the first place when she was clearly captive to a propoganda machine at a vulnerable age.
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Offline Qston

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #166 on: February 20, 2019, 01:29:40 pm »
:lmao :butt

Stockholm syndrome is when you develop a relationship with a Hostage during capture.
She fled to the Middle East on her own accord.

Why are people so hell bent in excusing her actions?

There is a difference between excusing actions and trying to understand what has happened and why she thinks like she does. I don`t think anyone on here has attempted to excuse, whereas plenty are advocating trying to understand.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #167 on: February 20, 2019, 01:39:28 pm »
Let me clarify: Stockholm Syndrome was cited as an analogy, not a diagnosis of her situation.

Look, I can understand the anger at ISIS, and I can understand the anger towards fellow citizens wanting to join ISIS (especially because I know that every time something like this happens, Islamophobic abuse goes up and people of my skin colour will suffer).


Apologies if Im getting this wrong. You mentioned was in response to me saying she doesnt feel like a victim. Maybe rather than a psychological defect, she doesn't feel a victim because she still believes in the ISIS ideology. Personally that's not someone you would want roaming the streets.

I sincerely hope no one with any skin colour gets abuse for this, however I think a soft approach will bring out more racist attacks than a hard one.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #168 on: February 20, 2019, 01:40:52 pm »
These 2 posts sum it up for me excellently.

Islamic state doesn’t exist as nation, they barely hold territory anymore, why do the Syrian people have to shoulder the burden of a British citizen?

Remember this next time a foreign born terrorist, rapist, murderer is caught in the UK and their home country tells us to fuck off, unilaterally revokes their citizenship and the Daily Mail is kicking at “soft touch” Britain.

I don’t know if it’s British/Western exceptionalism but it seems the attitude is.. “well it’s the Middle East, they’re all at it, so she belongs there” missing the point that they don’t want murderous zealots or dangerous invididuals either and it isn’t just a dumping ground to make difficult problems go away.

See also her apparent dual citizenship: “send her to Bangladesh, they can have her” like these countries are beneath us and deserve horrible c*nts thrust on them.

Some are playing with fire here you set a precedent that any Home Secretary can revoke a person citizenship to score political points where does that end ?

People say she knew what she was doing well i work with 15 year olds some are mature and certain of their future path in life, others are not as certain and looking for something in their lives, these can be easily swayed and start blindly trusting what any adults preach to them, so her age at the time is a factor in this.
Every school that i know of has a watchful eye or policy if you like to deal with any signs of suspected radicalisation in their students it is set down with the schools child safety policies and i have sat through enough Inset days when this is discussed at length and believe me this policy applies to far younger than 15.

So i dont go for this she knew what she was doing because unless you are her you dont know how her mind was altered by these adults who sent her on this journey.

As for what should happen next well without the knee jerk reaction of they will give her a council house and she will live off our benefits, i think she should be brought back, questioned here, have her state of mind examined, let the full process of our laws and mental health experts deal with her and move on.

One other danger this Home secretary has maybe not thought about is with his rash action is has he made her a convenient Martyr figure for the people that radicalise others?

The other side of the coin is may stop others but it can also the effect of radicalising far more fighting in her name here in the U.K.

People's inability in here to look at the bigger picture is disappointing to me. Let her in and let the UK justice system run its course.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #169 on: February 20, 2019, 01:43:10 pm »
Quote
“We call what happened to Rasheed radicalisation, but it is very similar to grooming," says Nicola. "His softer nature and that vulnerability was manipulated on the back off an idea: ‘This is the caliphate and if you don’t do this journey you are not a believer, not a good Muslim’.

“In the last year of his life they [recruiters] ruined him. They lured him into something that he knew little about.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-acfd761e-0dff-46f7-87a4-96cec7824254
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Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #170 on: February 20, 2019, 01:45:16 pm »
Yes.  The immigration tribunals are full of cases on legal aid.  She’ll get legal aid and I wouldn’t be surprised if her case runs through all the appeal courts as well.That’s simply not correct though.  The power is there in section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981, and its unilateral for the Home Secretary.  You might be getting it confused with a criminal punishment, which is a totally separate thing.

Fair enough if that is the case, could that be superseded by certain international law conventions? But as I’ve said before is it really a precedent we want to set for other countries, following our lead and choosing to revoke citizenship for their citizens in the UK who are convicted criminals/terrorists, thereby tying our hands when attempting to deport them?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 01:49:56 pm by OneTouchFooty »

Offline vagabond

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #171 on: February 20, 2019, 01:47:10 pm »
Apologies if Im getting this wrong. You mentioned was in response to me saying she doesnt feel like a victim. Maybe rather than a psychological defect, she doesn't feel a victim because she still believes in the ISIS ideology. Personally that's not someone you would want roaming the streets.

I sincerely hope no one with any skin colour gets abuse for this, however I think a soft approach will bring out more racist attacks than a hard one.

She probably does believe in it. She's hardly been free of the regime and has been brainwashed for the last 5 or so years.
I wouldn't advocate her roaming the streets either if she is a danger to society, but that's for mental health experts to decide.

Of course nobody wants any abuse to follow from situations like this, but it sadly does happen. If racists feel more empowered by what they perceive to be a soft response then that is their problem and the rest of society shouldn't let ourselves be held hostage to their way of thinking.
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Offline gazzalfc

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #172 on: February 20, 2019, 02:07:01 pm »
Not taking particular issue with your points and we are rightly discussing the legality of her situation but what I find reprehensible is her complete lack of morality.

That comment about heads in waste bins shows an almost pyschopathic disregard for mormal behaviour. Those heads belonged to innocent human beings - well innocent under our interpretaion of the law anyway.

Other ISIS fellow travellers have returned quietly and without fanfare. For some reason she has been advised to put her head above the parapet. Unfortunately badly advised because her mixture of smug, arrogant entitlement, combined with the fact she appears increasingly think, hasn't worked.

I'm sure she'll worm her way back but, if she'd had kept her mouth shut she'd be back sooner rather than later.

Oh she is a morally repugnant person and its very clear she hes been indoctrinated with her hatred and entitlement over the course of her life from a very young age to today. I would never question or begin to defend that behaviour in any society. But there are plenty more like her in this country (not just for their religious ideologies).

My issue is clearly the legal ramifications of a government (which is what I class the Home Office as) unilaterally revoking the citizenship of a UK citizen without due process. By all means arrest her the second she lands on UK soil (even if it is within a UK embassy), question her of her motives and collect intelligence (using legal human rights means) and if she is in any way poses a threat to the security of this country then prosecute to the fullest extent of the UK legal system and let our intelligence and counter terrorism branches deal with it. You allow the accused to provide a defence or mitigation for her actions. That is the basis of our legal system
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:08:32 pm by gazzalfc »

Offline Wabaloolah

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #173 on: February 20, 2019, 02:26:03 pm »
If I travelled to Syria to join a murderous terrorist group who encourage people to blow up children in suicide bombs, drive trucks into crowds and randomly stab people, then I wouldn't have any rights to complain if I wasn't allowed back into the UK and had my citizenship stripped.

Anyway, she has a state, it is Islamic State and she can fuck off and live with them.
this, she made her bed, she can lie in it
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Offline Wabaloolah

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #174 on: February 20, 2019, 02:40:06 pm »
I really don't have a problem with what Javid has done, it'll be overturned in the courts I suspect.  She'll be allowed back in, serve a short sentence and then be left to roam the streets and peddle her filth on others.

She joined a terrorist organisation, this could all be a front for a planned terrorist atrocity in this country.  I don't think it's worth the risk, she can fuck off as far as I am concerned.  I have zero sympathy for her or her family
However if something serious happens to them I will eat my own cock.


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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #175 on: February 20, 2019, 02:47:22 pm »
This reminded me...I highly recommend the podcast Caliphate.
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Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #176 on: February 20, 2019, 03:35:05 pm »
I really don't have a problem with what Javid has done, it'll be overturned in the courts I suspect.  She'll be allowed back in, serve a short sentence and then be left to roam the streets and peddle her filth on others.

She joined a terrorist organisation, this could all be a front for a planned terrorist atrocity in this country.  I don't think it's worth the risk, she can fuck off as far as I am concerned.  I have zero sympathy for her or her family

"Fuck off" where exactly? Also she ran away from her family.. unless we're now placing all criminality of teenagers onto the parents? 

Did you like that the UK was able to deport Abu Hamza to the US or Abu Qatada back to Jordan? Or do you wish those countries had told us to "fuck off” and sort them out ourselves, letting the British taxpayer pay for the privilege of dealing with them?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 04:03:29 pm by OneTouchFooty »

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #177 on: February 20, 2019, 03:51:57 pm »
At 15 there's going to be leeway in terms of you being held fully responsible for your actions (even if you blithely assure everyone you are the boss).  At 19, after those experiences,  she still comes across badly, and that's a problem.

You want to expose yourself to risk,  you need to see something to work with.  You look at her interviews,  read the comments,  there's little to build with.  The same sense of entitlement and lack of self awareness that would've played a big part in her 15 year old self jumping into a theatre she doesn't belong in seems evident, even accounting for the trauma and shock of war.  There's a lot of work to be done there.

In terms of risk analysis it's easy,  what she could bring to the table is not worth the risk she carries to the rest of the population,  not even close.  She'll have her rights by law due to her luck of being born in a certain place and that'll play out,  but as a pure decision it's easy,  keep her out.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #178 on: February 20, 2019, 04:01:16 pm »
The British state should own up to its responsibility for its citizens. Bring her back, prosecute her, if found guilty, put her in prison. Isn't that what we have a criminal justice system for?


She is clearly British, and like it or not, was radicalised enough in this society to run off and join IS. Its the responsibility of Britain to a) deal with her and b) prevent future cases like hers. Its a responsibility to both the people of his country, and of other countries like Syria where this Brit went and supported terrorism. Revoking her citizenship and making her another country's problem is just cowardly.

Fucking own up Britain, you raised her, deal with it.
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Offline carling

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #179 on: February 20, 2019, 04:38:21 pm »
Does anyone else hate the term 'brainwashed' being used in these situations ... is brainwashing even a thing?  Has it ever been backed up by any science?  Is it ever a medical diagnosis?  Genuine questions.

Tricked? Sure. 
Manipulated? Sure.
Exploited?  Sure.

But 'brainwashed' just always sounds a step too far for me, and seems to actually shut down constructive discussion.  Even our best scientists don't really understand how the brain works, but brainwashing just sounds like it belongs in science fiction movies.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #180 on: February 20, 2019, 04:45:21 pm »
It's pandering to the Daily Mail brigade.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #181 on: February 20, 2019, 04:49:51 pm »
They are not:
ISIS Sympathizers
ISIS Brides
ISIS Widows
ISIS Mothers

They are simply ISIS members. Why are we (by we I mean society in general not this forum!) relegating women who voluntarily left their homes for a genocidal terrorist group on a different standard than ISIS members?

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #182 on: February 20, 2019, 05:14:39 pm »
I cant agree with much of that Geoff
So what are you suggesting we do with the poor victim, let her live with her parents who used to take her to hardline Islamist meetings?

Which bit of my post suggested that she should just go home to her parents ? Show me were i suggested that fella.

Also you are almost correct as I tried to suggest from someone who is aware of such radicalisation all the time and have been long before the media highlighted this one person,  given her age she was a clear victim of radicalisation which is why i suggested go through the legal and mental health avenues not just swan back in and move into her parents house, your stance is pure vengence tell me does that work well in society?

Edit
one last point given she was being interviewed in a refugee camp that will probably contain quite a lot of ISIS people,  do you think her responses to the press (and what will be their loaded questions and need for a story) might just be affected by the situation she is in ?

As somebody said look at the bigger picture.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 05:24:09 pm by Mutton Geoff »
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Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #183 on: February 20, 2019, 05:20:21 pm »
@SkyNewsBreak: Bangladesh Interior Minister Asaduzzaman Khan says the citizenship of 19-year-old Shamima Begum who left east London to join Islamic State is a matter for the UK Government and "Bangladesh has nothing to do with this"

Also they say she doesn’t have dual citizenship, so Sajid Javid was (unsurprisingly) lying about this.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #184 on: February 20, 2019, 05:21:06 pm »
They are not:
ISIS Sympathizers
ISIS Brides
ISIS Widows
ISIS Mothers

They are simply ISIS members. Why are we (by we I mean society in general not this forum!) relegating women who voluntarily left their homes for a genocidal terrorist group on a different standard than ISIS members?
Because they were radicalized when they were minors. Because she hasn’t actually committed any teroriat acts.   Because this won’t make anything better.

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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #185 on: February 20, 2019, 05:35:15 pm »
These 2 posts sum it up for me excellently.

People's inability in here to look at the bigger picture is disappointing to me. Let her in and let the UK justice system run its course.


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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #186 on: February 20, 2019, 05:39:24 pm »
If I travelled to Syria to join a murderous terrorist group who encourage people to blow up children in suicide bombs, drive trucks into crowds and randomly stab people, then I wouldn't have any rights to complain if I wasn't allowed back into the UK and had my citizenship stripped.

Anyway, she has a state, it is Islamic State and she can fuck off and live with them.



You need to lay off the papers fella.Since posting this you've not posted anything but hysterical shit.

Guaranteed the press, especially the Scum, would be all over this. They like nothing better than to whip up some Muslim hatred. They'll find a way to blame the EU for the law that allows her to return.


And there's no nation called Islamic State.



« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 05:47:49 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline Wabaloolah

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #187 on: February 20, 2019, 05:41:02 pm »
"Fuck off" where exactly? Also she ran away from her family.. unless we're now placing all criminality of teenagers onto the parents? 

Did you like that the UK was able to deport Abu Hamza to the US or Abu Qatada back to Jordan? Or do you wish those countries had told us to "fuck off” and sort them out ourselves, letting the British taxpayer pay for the privilege of dealing with them?
She can stay where she is, leave her to the Syrian government to deal with her in whatever way they deem suitable.
Hamza wasn't deported, he was extradited to the US to face criminal charges there.
You can sympathise with her if you like, I choose not to
However if something serious happens to them I will eat my own cock.


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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #188 on: February 20, 2019, 05:43:56 pm »
The British state should own up to its responsibility for its citizens. Bring her back, prosecute her, if found guilty, put her in prison. Isn't that what we have a criminal justice system for?


She is clearly British, and like it or not, was radicalised enough in this society to run off and join IS. Its the responsibility of Britain to a) deal with her and b) prevent future cases like hers. Its a responsibility to both the people of his country, and of other countries like Syria where this Brit went and supported terrorism. Revoking her citizenship and making her another country's problem is just cowardly.

Fucking own up Britain, you raised her, deal with it.


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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #189 on: February 20, 2019, 05:45:27 pm »
Not that it makes a difference to the legal aspects of things, but I wonder if she would describe herself as British - I suspect not

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #190 on: February 20, 2019, 05:47:36 pm »
Not that it makes a difference to the legal aspects of things, but I wonder if she would describe herself as British - I suspect not

And?

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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #191 on: February 20, 2019, 05:49:27 pm »
They are not:
ISIS Sympathizers
ISIS Brides
ISIS Widows
ISIS Mothers

They are simply ISIS members. Why are we (by we I mean society in general not this forum!) relegating women who voluntarily left their homes for a genocidal terrorist group on a different standard than ISIS members?

Because she was born in the UK and was a child when she ran away.


Does anyone else hate the term 'brainwashed' being used in these situations ... is brainwashing even a thing?  Has it ever been backed up by any science?  Is it ever a medical diagnosis?  Genuine questions.

Tricked? Sure. 
Manipulated? Sure.
Exploited?  Sure.

But 'brainwashed' just always sounds a step too far for me, and seems to actually shut down constructive discussion.  Even our best scientists don't really understand how the brain works, but brainwashing just sounds like it belongs in science fiction movies.


Pretty sure it is,maybe there are studies about it somewhere.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2019, 05:50:21 pm »
Not that it makes a difference to the legal aspects of things, but I wonder if she would describe herself as British - I suspect not

She described herself as a Bethnal Green girl.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #193 on: February 20, 2019, 05:52:01 pm »
She described herself as a Bethnal Green girl.


I didn't realise she is a cockney,fuck it,leave her to rot.
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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #194 on: February 20, 2019, 06:00:13 pm »


You need to lay off the papers fella.Since posting this you've not posted anything but hysterical shit.


And these no nation called Islamic State.





Haven't read a paper for years.

I do get that this is a very complex issue on the legal side. You cannot have the UK government just stripping citizenship as and when they feel like it, nor dumping a terrorist on Bangladesh, but we also cannot risk the lives of people in the UK, both residents and visitors. She probably won't even go to prison once back here and then does she get watched 24/7 for the rest of her life and we just hope she doesn't commit mass murder? The mental health system is failing thousands of people already, can we be sure they will sort her out?

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #195 on: February 20, 2019, 06:09:31 pm »
Not that it makes a difference to the legal aspects of things, but I wonder if she would describe herself as British - I suspect not

Plenty of first generation immigrants don’t refer to themselves as British. I generally don’t unless it’s in a formal or legal context but that doesn’t mean I hate this country or consipire with those who are its enemies.
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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #196 on: February 20, 2019, 06:10:02 pm »
Haven't read a paper for years.

I do get that this is a very complex issue on the legal side. You cannot have the UK government just stripping citizenship as and when they feel like it, nor dumping a terrorist on Bangladesh, but we also cannot risk the lives of people in the UK, both residents and visitors. She probably won't even go to prison once back here and then does she get watched 24/7 for the rest of her life and we just hope she doesn't commit mass murder? The mental health system is failing thousands of people already, can we be sure they will sort her out?


Over 400 people have returned from Syria and 10% of those were prosecuted,Javid is saying that stripping Citizenship is only used on the most dangerous of people,do you think that she qualifies as the most dangerous or should she be treated like the 400 people before her ?

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #197 on: February 20, 2019, 06:13:54 pm »
Pretty sure it is,maybe there are studies about it somewhere.

My googling efforts have all pointed to brainwashing not being accepted as scientific fact.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #198 on: February 20, 2019, 06:26:43 pm »
My googling efforts have all pointed to brainwashing not being accepted as scientific fact.

Is that true?

All these years, it turns out I have been brainwshed into thinking brainwashing was real.

Oh wait.
 ;D

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #199 on: February 20, 2019, 06:39:31 pm »
My googling efforts have all pointed to brainwashing not being accepted as scientific fact.

How would you describe what Jim Jones and all the other Cult leaders managed to do ?
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