Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[B0151?]

Yep, I keep hearing they have access to different technology than what gets shown. But no explanation of why we can't see that technology and how it makes sense they're showing us something different

[has gone odd]

haha so who is drawing the stupid and meaningless lines on the screens we do see, whilst they are using super secret asskick technology to make the 100% correct decisions.

[Fromola]

VAR is just not value for money. Causes more controversy than it saves. If there was a way they can use the money they're wasting on it to instead get a higher standard of refereeing. More money into at grass level, recruitment, training. It would be much better use of money. And it would have an impact on all levels of football not just the elite.

Not happening like but

Constant talk in the media/with the authorities of how to refine VAR. Never any question of just getting rid of the thing and leaving the game as it was.

[Dr Stu-Pid]

I think that PGMOL and the Premier League need to issue a definitive statement about the West Brom goal, and that statement needs to 100% say that VAR got that decision wrong.  If they instead don't comment or release a statement backing up the decision of VAR then it will make them an even bigger laughing stock than they already are.

Honestly, how can an organisation say on one hand that their technology and VARs are accurate enough to be able to decide that Jota's sleeve is offside one day and overturn the on-field decision, but the very same weekend say that the technology can't allow them to overturn a clearly incorrect decision to the naked eye?

This also calls into question two other issues in my mind:

1. As we have seen lately VAR seem to only be using the detailed lines for very tight calls, and instead are using single horizontal lines on the screen to make decisions which are more clear cut.  This is a good thing as it speeds up the time to make decisions.  However, a few of those decisions were probably just as tight as the West Brom call yesterday, so I don't understand why they are now insisting on using the detailed lines.  The decision to rule Son onside against us in our 2-1 win earlier in December was one obvious example.

2. VAR were happy to overrule the on-field decision and allow Leicester's equalizer against us in the 3-1 defeat, and yet there is no way that they could have been 100% certain that they had the correct position for Firmino's boot given the camera angle that they used and number of bodies in the way.  So if suddenly they are not going to make calls unless they have conclusive angles then that seems to be a change in policy.

But of course worse still is that this wasn't an isolated incident and no fewer than 5 different games were potentially ruined by stupid VAR calls over the weekend: 

1. The decision to call the Wolves player offside by a few mm against Fulham (his arm was offside...)
2. The similar decision to disallow Firmino's goal due to Jota being a few mm offside (again, his arm...)
3. The clear penalty and red card that wasn't given when the Burnley player kicked a Newcastle player in the head
4. The decision to disallow the Utd goal for the 'foul' on Son
5. The West Brom debacle

I mean seriously, how far does this have to go until the PL, the clubs, the players, or the broadcasters stand up for the game and declare that VAR and PGMOL are not fit for purpose?

[rob1966]

haha so who is drawing the stupid and meaningless lines on the screens we do see, whilst they are using super secret asskick technology to make the 100% correct decisions.

We see them as they are doing it, the lines are thickened up for telly, but the fine one we see initially, when they first start drawing the offside, is the one the refs use

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1488423

[El Lobo]

I think it was Al that said there are some magical lines that the VAR has access to, which are far more decisive than what we see as fans and that we absolutely shouldnt question any offside decision with VAR because its 'impossible for it to be wrong'





It'd be interesting to see the actual VAR lines on that

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

After the latest shitshow and the usual contradictory justifications so neatly covered by the Doctor above, surely what must be clear to all is that Riley is not fit to run PGMOL and his position is untenable.

I'm not naive enough to think that all problems would disappear with his removal, but it is clear that there is zero trust in PGMOL and VAR and his presence has the potential to undermine any improvements that are subsequently suggested.

[rob1966]

I think it was Al that said there are some magical lines that the VAR has access to, which are far more decisive than what we see as fans and that we absolutely shouldnt question any offside decision with VAR because its 'impossible for it to be wrong'





It'd be interesting to see the actual VAR lines on that

Its nothing more special than thinner lines, one pixel wide, that they overlay the thick lines on for telly purposes

[GreatEx]

Villa's 4th just before half time in the 7-2 looked way off the check was very quick too. Check it out below:

This is a very good article if you have not read it already but in the first of the three video's 6 min 18 seconds in you'll see Watkins looked offside when the free kick was struck.   

https://tomkinstimes.com/2021/03/a-damning-indictment-of-english-referees-regarding-foreign-players/

One of these days Tomkins will write an article that isn't 90% waffle and I will be over the moon with joy.

[Eeyore]

I think it was Al that said there are some magical lines that the VAR has access to, which are far more decisive than what we see as fans and that we absolutely shouldnt question any offside decision with VAR because its 'impossible for it to be wrong'





It'd be interesting to see the actual VAR lines on that

It isn't special lines.

Each ground that has VAR is 3D mapped. What you see on screen is a 2D representation.

The technology is there to have automatic decisions that rely on the cameras, the 3D mapping and the software. It was PGMOL who insisted on its officials deciding on where the line is drawn. So that the officials were not undermined.

PGMOL decided to bring human error in to the equation.

Personally I think the more we remove human error from the equation the better.

However, some posters seem to want to go back to the bad old days and give the person who couldn't even identify the correct player to draw the line against, gets even more power.

[Lusty]

It isn't special lines.

Each ground that has VAR is 3D mapped. What you see on screen is a 2D representation.

The technology is there to have automatic decisions that rely on the cameras, the 3D mapping and the software. It was PGMOL who insisted on its officials deciding on where the line is drawn. So that the officials were not undermined.

PGMOL decided to bring human error in to the equation.

Personally I think the more we remove human error from the equation the better.

However, some posters seem to want to go back to the bad old days and give the person who couldn't even identify the correct player to draw the line against, gets even more power.

100% automation when the technology is nowhere near 100% accurate would be a very bad thing. Having a robot disallow perfectly good goals is not my idea of entertainment.

[Fromola]

However, some posters seem to want to go back to the bad old days and give the person who couldn't even identify the correct player to draw the line against, gets even more power.

You mean the way the game has always been played and officiated? The way it still is if I watch an EFL match, a non league match or a game down the park.

Football seemed to manage okay without VAR since the Victorian era.

They may as well just sell tickets to Stockley Park when the crowds are back and keep the grounds empty.

[Dull Tools]

100% automation when the technology is nowhere near 100% accurate would be a very bad thing. Having a robot disallow perfectly good goals is not my idea of entertainment.

Also trying to pretend it is 100% accurate when they haven't even bothered to clarify the rules enough for that level of detail.

For example - when do they freeze the camera to check the offside decision? The instant he touches the ball or the instant it leaves his foot? When you are giving someone offside by the patch on his sleeve it makes a big difference.

[Lusty]

You mean the way the game has always been played and officiated? The way it still is if I watch an EFL match, a non league match or a game down the park.

Football seemed to manage okay without VAR since the Victorian era.

They may as well just sell tickets to Stockley Park when the crowds are back and keep the grounds empty.

I am absolutely one of those posters who wants to go back to the 'bad old days'

Also trying to pretend it is 100% accurate when they haven't even bothered to clarify the rules enough for that level of detail.

For example - when do they freeze the camera to check the offside decision? The instant he touches the ball or the instant it leaves his foot? When you are giving someone offside by the patch on his sleeve it makes a big difference.

Someone should proper study to calculate everything down to the mm, take into account speed/direction of the attacker and defender, do proper 3D modelling of the player's body positioning etc, come up with a proper confidence interval and so on, and then figure out how many times VAR with the line drawing is actually getting the right decision.  I'm willing to bet that if you compared that to the accuracy of a quick naked eye replay, the naked eye would come out better.

At the very least, you have to admit that it's mental no one did that before bringing it in.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

One of these days Tomkins will write an article that isn't 90% waffle and I will be over the moon with joy.

His writing style may not be to your liking. Personally I'd prefer something a bit more direct, but in the circumstances I'm glad someone with a bit of profile has put some work in and come up with some analysis of the reffing we have had to endure.

He's done far more than many other journo's/broadcasters that have built very nice careers out of following us, but have been nowhere to be seen when we've needed a bit of media support.

[carling]

Would there be anywhere near as much moaning if whenever they need to look at different frames to figure it out, they just say it's onside..

Most of the hand-wringing seems to be when they miraculously manage find one frame with an armpit or something offside.  Indeed when we got a few of those last season it felt like a gift.

[Dull Tools]

Would there be anywhere near as much moaning if whenever they need to look at different frames to figure it out, they just say it's onside..

Most of the hand-wringing seems to be when they miraculously manage find one frame with an armpit or something offside.  Indeed when we got a few of those last season it felt like a gift.

Did we get any? I can't remember us getting any that are that close.

[BoRed]

Did we get any? I can't remember us getting any that are that close.

The Chelsea equaliser (that wasn't) was the closest I can remember, and even that was a foot offside, albeit in the buildup.

[red_Mark1980]

Did we get any? I can't remember us getting any that are that close.

Wolves at home

[Dull Tools]

The Chelsea equaliser (that wasn't) was the closest I can remember, and even that was a foot offside, albeit in the buildup.

That wasn't very close. His whole foot and half his body was offside.

The closest one was the Neto one I think where it looked like his toe may have been offside. It looked like it was but shouldn't be given in my opinion.

[Dr Stu-Pid]

Did we get any? I can't remember us getting any that are that close.

We got a very close offside call in our favour against Wolves, but even that was relatively clear as it was his foot that was just offside rather than his armpit or another part of the body which was off of the ground.

[Dull Tools]

Wolves at home

Agreed that was closest but still wasn't the closest as you could see his foot was just ahead of Henderson.

If you think how many close ones we have had on both sides of the pitch it is ridiculous that we have had one go for us.

[Skeeve]

Constant talk in the media/with the authorities of how to refine VAR. Never any question of just getting rid of the thing and leaving the game as it was.

Probably because reffing had become such a shitshow prior to var that it had managed to force such a major change to be necessary in the first place.

Var (especially in the PL) obviously has serious issues, but it is not like the same wasn't true and getting steadily worse each year without it, the difference being that var can be fixed, non-var reffing cannot be fixed without a mass clearout when there clearly wouldn't be the impetus to do that.

[Skeeve]

Would there be anywhere near as much moaning if whenever they need to look at different frames to figure it out, they just say it's onside..

Most of the hand-wringing seems to be when they miraculously manage find one frame with an armpit or something offside.  Indeed when we got a few of those last season it felt like a gift.

Indeed, var should have their version of umpire's call, if it is not an immediately obvious error, stick with the (possibly wrong,but too close to overturn) decision from the on-field ref.

You'd get more decisions right as it'd still be fixing the howlers and would speed things up since the non-obvious ones are the ones that take longer anyway since they need more angles and time to view them.

[red_Mark1980]

Agreed that was closest but still wasn't the closest as you could see his foot was just ahead of Henderson.

If you think how many close ones we have had on both sides of the pitch it is ridiculous that we have had one go for us.

I think the Bobby armpit goal at villa it was probably the closest until this year.

They've been ridiculous with it this season and anyone who prefers this to "the bad old days" is smoking some great 4:20

[Statto Red]

The idea behind VAR for offside is to get rid of the clangers like Stirling at City, but instead of clearing things up they're making it much much worse, football has become unwatchable as the incompetent buffoons are finding any reason to call goals out for offside, down to drawing lines & awarding offside if the players sleeve is in front of the last man, then taking an age to come up with some of the decisions.

[Fromola]

Probably because reffing had become such a shitshow prior to var that it had managed to force such a major change to be necessary in the first place.

Var (especially in the PL) obviously has serious issues, but it is not like the same wasn't true and getting steadily worse each year without it, the difference being that var can be fixed, non-var reffing cannot be fixed without a mass clearout when there clearly wouldn't be the impetus to do that.

Only because of the constant dissection of every incident by 24 hour sports news media which created an environment which demands every decision is correct (even though 4 different pundits will have 4 different views on what that correct decision should have been). 

If there's one thing we've learnt with VAR is the worse the officials are the bigger the shitshow VAR  will be anyway. If we're going to get shafted i'd rather it be by the ref on the pitch who can then get it in the neck by the fans in the ground.

At least for 125 years we could celebrate when we scored without knowing if it'd be chalked off until the game kicked off again.

[Knight]

If there's one thing we've learnt with VAR is the worse the officials are the bigger the shitshow VAR  will be anyway. If we're going to get shafted i'd rather it be by the ref on the pitch who can then get it in the neck by the fans in the ground.

Bang on. The solution to bad officials cannot be to give them MORE ways of ruining the experience for the fans and competitive integrity of the sport.

[thejbs]

Brewster gets his ankle studded and the ref mistakenly calls it against him and gives him a yellow. VAR reviews a potential red against the wolves defender. Red isn’t given but Brewster's yellow and the foul are upheld even though it’s clear he was the one who was fouled. Absolute shambles.

[Machae]

100% automation when the technology is nowhere near 100% accurate would be a very bad thing. Having a robot disallow perfectly good goals is not my idea of entertainment.

If its automation vs Cootes, give me automation any day.

[LFC_R_BOSS]

Always thought VAR would help us. Some of the poor decisions against us in the past in London (remember we never won a game there for ages) but it’s been worse . The FA cup game away at Arsenal big penalty shout not given etc , but no . Utter shite

[Armand9]

I'll say it again for the millionth time, its an easy solution.

They need to change the rule to the position of the feet, end of story.....

i've dont know if i've said it here or not but i've felt the same for a long time, just look at the feet, it's simple, it's in the vast majority of cases going to be easy to see, it's definitive and it's clearly not going to allow for goal mooching (the original reason offside was created) and if you can't tell, then it's on

i have no doubt players, managers, fans and even the refs would welcome such a simple but fair solution

if an opposition goal was scored where the player's head was slightly ahead of our guy, ie currently offside, would i kick up a fuss, fuck no, where's the feet, that'll do

[Andy @ Allerton!]

100% automation when the technology is nowhere near 100% accurate would be a very bad thing. Having a robot disallow perfectly good goals is not my idea of entertainment.

A program would be less biased than these dickheads who are redrawing lines until it matches their opinion.

No problem with a program automating the decsions because it would get identical decisions right or wrong for everyone. It doesn't care who the player is, or who the team is.

If it gives the same decision consistently then that's all we're after.

The humans in this equation had VAR brought in against them because there are so many people that think they aren't unbiased and aren't impartial.

Now they are using that same bias clearly and they are not accountable to anyone but themselves.

[Fromola]

i've dont know if i've said it here or not but i've felt the same for a long time, just look at the feet, it's simple, it's in the vast majority of cases going to be easy to see, it's definitive and it's clearly not going to allow for goal mooching (the original reason offside was created) and if you can't tell, then it's on

i have no doubt players, managers, fans and even the refs would welcome such a simple but fair solution

if an opposition goal was scored where the player's head was slightly ahead of our guy, ie currently offside, would i kick up a fuss, fuck no, where's the feet, that'll do

It's still bollocks:

[rushyman]

This just can’t go on

It’s genuinely wrecking the game

[Crosby Nick]

Is the Arsenal player the one offside there? At least it’s foot v foot and although tight he appears slightly off doesn’t he? You’d be annoyed if you had one disallowed like it but at least it’s not comparing where parts of their arm are.

[Phineus]

There is just no advantage there for the attacker when it’s that close... VAR offsides never seems to be an issue in champions league. Maybe that’s an optics thing because there are less games?

Likely British exceptionalism thinking we can do it our own way and messing it up to alienate pretty much every single fan.

[Fromola]

Is the Arsenal player the one offside there? At least it’s foot v foot and although tight he appears slightly off doesn’t he? You’d be annoyed if you had one disallowed like it but at least it’s not comparing where parts of their arm are.

Technically offside, yes, but most of his body is in front of the defender with his back to goal. It's just not in the spirit of the law at all, but that's what automation will do.

Before VAR nobody would have looked twice at that goal and said it should have been offside.

[Machae]

There is just no advantage there for the attacker when it’s that close... VAR offsides never seems to be an issue in champions league. Maybe that’s an optics thing because there are less games?

Likely British exceptionalism thinking we can do it our own way and messing it up to alienate pretty much every single fan.

You already have it now with journalist and pundits blaming the law/rules rather than the incompetence of the officials. So in the eyes of PMGOL, they're not to blame

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

It's still bollocks:

It needs to be from the feet AND with a margin of error built in (akin to umpires call).