Topic: Supporters to visit rail seating at Celtic

[Jay_Mc]

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/supporters-to-visit-rail-seating-at-celtic

Following our overwhelming vote in favour of rail seating being introduced into football grounds, Spirit of Shankly committed to digesting the result and looking at what the next steps might be. Given the size of the vote, and the debate taking place nationally, it was right that we committed to find out more. This Saturday, as part of that process, we will visit Celtic Park.

Thanks to the generosity of Celtic, SOS will attend the match versus Ross County. We will be accompanied by fellow supporters, Hillsborough families and survivors. This trip will be an opportunity for us to see the rail seating section first-hand and to ask questions of those responsible for its safety. As well as hearing about the Celtic experience, some of those attending will also be watching the match from the rail seating section.

We fully appreciate the sensitivities around this visit. This will be a difficult experience for some, and one that should not be under-estimated. We invited both Hillsborough groups to attend and we are grateful to those who are able to.

We understand that rail seating may not be for everyone. We want to make clear that any such visit is not an endorsement, nor a pre-cursor to calling for it at Anfield. We expect that following the visit, our discussions and viewpoints will be informed further. We anticipate that after this visit, we will update supporters and have further discussions about what, if any, further steps we take.

If anyone has any questions they would like putting to Celtic, their staff or supporters, or if you have any questions about the visit itself, please email chair@spiritofshankly.com

[Grobbelrevell]

Glad to see progress on this and for the update as well.

I think a serious analysis of, and debate around, rail-seating as an option at Anfield, is really all that many, including myself, are asking for at this stage.

I'll be interested to hear the findings afterwards.

[GinKop]

Great and positive step forward. Hopefully the visit goes well as I think this could be a (part) saviour of the atmosphere and lifeblood of the Anfield support.

Completely understand there are differing views on this, just my two pennies worth.

[24/7]

Thanks for the update there Jay. Hope the visit goes well. Good to see too that families and survivors will attend. There's a point of view that standing in and of itself was not a cause of the Hillsborough Disaster. There's some excellent further reading about this issue in the book "And The Sun Shines Now" by journalist and survivor Adrian Tempany.

[Jay_Mc]

Thanks for the update there Jay. Hope the visit goes well. Good to see too that families and survivors will attend. There's a point of view that standing in and of itself was not a cause of the Hillsborough Disaster. There's some excellent further reading about this issue in the book "And The Sun Shines Now" by journalist and survivor Adrian Tempany.

I am personally of the same view. I've got Adrian's book to but not read it fully yet.

[BCCC]

Glad to see this and recognise how difficult it will be for some.

I've always maintained that Hillsborough was a failure of Police control and perimeter fencing, not one of standing at football grounds.

Good luck.

[scouse neapolitan]

Thanks for the update Jay and thanks for your excellent post. It shows sensitivity but at the same time reiterates how important it is to work out the feasibility for us.

[stockdam]

I don't know anything about these types of seats but I assume that you either get a seat number of else can only have the same number of people per row as there are seats.

Are the seats the same pitch (same number of seats in a given area both across the terrace and up and down).

I can't see any disadvantages other than the obvious (a person who needs to sit for most of the game should sit in a normal seated area).

As far as safety is concerned, then the barriers (backs of seats) need to be able to withstand at least two people just in case one barrier gives way (you wouldn't want a cascade of people just because one seat rail gives way). I think the rails will be more than strong enough.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Great update as well as a really well thought out approach, not only visting a live UK example, but also including families and survivors. Hope it goes well.

[redgriffin73]

Good to hear, I hope the trip goes well for everyone and look forward to hearing the feedback.

[Dougle]

http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/supporters-to-visit-rail-seating-at-celtic

Following our overwhelming vote in favour of rail seating being introduced into football grounds, Spirit of Shankly committed to digesting the result and looking at what the next steps might be. Given the size of the vote, and the debate taking place nationally, it was right that we committed to find out more. This Saturday, as part of that process, we will visit Celtic Park.

Thanks to the generosity of Celtic, SOS will attend the match versus Ross County. We will be accompanied by fellow supporters, Hillsborough families and survivors. This trip will be an opportunity for us to see the rail seating section first-hand and to ask questions of those responsible for its safety. As well as hearing about the Celtic experience, some of those attending will also be watching the match from the rail seating section.

We fully appreciate the sensitivities around this visit. This will be a difficult experience for some, and one that should not be under-estimated. We invited both Hillsborough groups to attend and we are grateful to those who are able to.

We understand that rail seating may not be for everyone. We want to make clear that any such visit is not an endorsement, nor a pre-cursor to calling for it at Anfield. We expect that following the visit, our discussions and viewpoints will be informed further. We anticipate that after this visit, we will update supporters and have further discussions about what, if any, further steps we take.

If anyone has any questions they would like putting to Celtic, their staff or supporters, or if you have any questions about the visit itself, please email chair@spiritofshankly.com

Well done all concerned. Could be a very tough day but in great company.

[So… Howard Philips]

Glad to see this and recognise how difficult it will be for some.

I've always maintained that Hillsborough was a failure of Police control and perimeter fencing, not one of standing at football grounds.

Good luck.

A sensible initiative.

I agree with most of your points BCCC but as well as control and fencing the lay out of a lot of terracing left a lot to be desired e.g pens.

And getting out of the back of the Kop in the 60s was certainly an experience.

[24/7]

A sensible initiative.

I agree with most of your points BCCC but as well as control and fencing the lay out of a lot of terracing left a lot to be desired e.g pens.

And getting out of the back of the Kop in the 60s was certainly an experience.

Let us not forget that Hillsborough failed no fewer than 14 items on the Green Guide to safety, including, critically, things like barrier heights, barrier distribution, angle of descent on terracing, specifically the angle of descent of the access tunnel and also spacing of terraces, as well as an incorrect (and ultimately fatal) over-estimation of the capacity of each pen. Lateral fencing, leaving nowhere to go, and only one egress from pens 3 and 4, which was the same as the access point? Again, criminally-negligent in terms of failing to monitor numbers of people standing there.....

Getting out of pretty much any large ground was an issue until flow dynamics helped redesign access/egress points and the point remains, ergo standing is not inherently unsafe; ineffective and now-proven criminally-negligent people management and terracing design is inherently unsafe. QED.

Personally, I feel safer standing on The Kop than sitting (on the admittedly very rare occasions I get to go these days). I'd love to see rail seating come in.

[Pie Eyed]

I don't know anything about these types of seats but I assume that you either get a seat number of else can only have the same number of people per row as there are seats.

Are the seats the same pitch (same number of seats in a given area both across the terrace and up and down).

I can't see any disadvantages other than the obvious (a person who needs to sit for most of the game should sit in a normal seated area).

As far as safety is concerned, then the barriers (backs of seats) need to be able to withstand at least two people just in case one barrier gives way (you wouldn't want a cascade of people just because one seat rail gives way). I think the rails will be more than strong enough.

I believe (although I could be wrong) that you get 2 people per seat.

So you get a seat number and then become either the "A" or "B" person for that seat.

Basically, when the seat is folded upright, you get one person where the seat goes and another where your feet would normally go.

But every single seat has a rail on the back, that is tall enough that you should never have more than those 2 people pressing on it (although the type of steel that I've seen in images looks like it hold back a LOT more than 2 people).

[Grobbelrevell]

I don't know anything about these types of seats...

There's some basic information on what they might look like here:

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-proposal/the-proposal---continued

And also via the FSF in item #1, here:

http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/what-does-safe-standing-look-like/

[whiteboots]

It is the way forwards.

The current standing in seated areas is what is unsafe.

[Motty]

Think safe standing is going to happen across the country soon so glad to hear we are taking baby steps now so we are better prepared for when a decision can be properly made.

[iAnfieldRoad]

This discussion will always be difficult for the families buti hope when they go to celtic that they are reassured at how safe it is.No matter what I also hope they know we are there for them and that will never walk alone no matter what decision is taken regarding rail seating at anfield.I was at Dortmund for the Scotland game in 2014 and even though we were in the opposite end from the yellow wall there was rail seating in our stand.I have never felt safer and when Scotland scored [shocker] we only could jump up and down and never once fell forward or backwards which can sometimes happen in seated areas.That is just my experience but I would certainly support anfield having it installed as long as the Hillsborough families were to support it.YNWA.

[ghirl67]

Good to hear this though I appreciate it will be difficult for some of those in attendance. 

The ratio for the Celtic Park standing section is 1:1 that is 1 person,1 ticket,1 seat.

The standing section is split into two parts, that is to say 3 sections at the front full of the green brigade and all those signed up to their "north curve" fan initiative. The 3 sections at the front are the noisiest and most vocal where those who want to bounce about will be found. You will also find some of these inclined folk at the front of the back sections.  The back of those sections tends to be less noisy and not bouncing about as much.

The season ticket cards for the standing section are yellow so that stewards can easily identify them from normal season ticket cards.  Entry to the standing section means more card checks than any other part of the stadium. 

The seats are locked for domestic matches and unlocked for European games. The ground staff/stewards have the job of locking and unlocking the seats when necessary. I have seen some reports say that the seats are in a "down position" for European games. This is not the case. They are simply unlocked and can be used as a normal seat.

https://youtu.be/HOG2QNGckSs  cringy cliches aside this is a good video from Celtic on the installation process and final result.

https://youtu.be/Uo02-r9bBnA Interview with Celtic SLO  John Paul Taylor. I think the lad doing the interview is a Bournemouth Echo journalist.

[number 168]

Good luck with the visit. I have a Main Stand season ticket but very occasionally watch the match from the Kop, simply because I was a Kopite from 1970 until 1988 and want to view the game from there - it brings back so many memories. The point is I felt safer in the standing Kop than the supposed all seater version. On numerous occasions I have fallen forward and always leave with bruised shins as sitting is almost impossible. Safe standing has to come in as the current situation is unsustainable and expensive too. Standing isn't inherently unsafe it's how it's managed. The current situation on the Kop is unsafe in my opinion.

[Zeb]

Personally, am very supportive providing it is well managed. That's something which will be important so shortcuts on safety aren't ever taken. It would be safer than the current situation on the kop where it's far too easy to go over the seat in front. Fitting into seats is a problem for my fat backside these days, never mind being over 6' and legroom, so the rare times I get to a match now I much prefer standing.

All the best to everyone heading up to Scotland to see how it works.

[Samie]

West Brom's application for rail seats rejected.

West Brom have had a proposal to introduce safe standing at The Hawthorns rejected by the government. https://bbc.in/2uY4RL3

West Brom have had a proposal to introduce safe standing at The Hawthorns rejected by the government.

The pilot scheme would have meant 3,600 seats in the Smethwick End were converted to 'rail seats', which can be locked in an upright position.

West Brom - who are bottom of the Premier League - hoped to install them in time for the start of next season.

But sports minister Tracey Crouch says there are no plans to change the all-seater policy at football stadiums.

[mikey_LFC]

Unsurprising response. Hopefully the reasoned and well organised approach taken by Spirit of Shankly can help convince the government otherwise.

The fear is that the reintroduction of standing at football will be largely unpopular amongst the general electorate so the government will be blind to the work done to reach a sensible conclusion as it plainly too risky to get behind something that could be cast in a negative light in the media.

The government could just side with the view there is no issue with the current setup so why change. The preference of football fans is not high on the agenda for the government, especially due to its image within wider society as a nuisance and trouble-making. Any pandering to a demographic seen as second class will only be looked at as having the potential to back fire.

The last thing the government would want is an issue arising from something they have given the green flag. Being ignorant around health and safety concerns is one thing, as with Grenfell, but to sign off on a policy change and have something occur would be a step beyond.

Scenes like last week's coach welcome or the fan trouble at West Ham won't help either as they give the image of a underground hooligan culture (as certain newspapers could spin those incidents) that could arise again if the chance was given to them.

When the amazing, due diligent process undergone by Spirit of Shankly reaches its climax, the detail and backing behind the petition will need to be bulletproof because any doubt will be too much, even certainty might not be enough to get this passed.

All the best to everyone leading this. I can see it being a long hard campaign before any change is seen.

[MerseysideBrum]

Actually shameful that they're making games less safe by not introducing safe standing. Have they not learned from Hillsborough? Rail seating in areas that stand already is obviously more safe. My shins are still hurting from falling over seats on the Kop against City.

[Jake]

Well done to West Brom for giving it a go, between that and the sacking of Pardew I like them again now. No surprise the tory c*nts shut them down, absolute scum of the earth. Just have to keep trying.

[24/7]

Actually shameful that they're making games less safe by not introducing safe standing. Have they not learned from Hillsborough? Rail seating in areas that stand already is obviously more safe. My shins are still hurting from falling over seats on the Kop against City.

Watch MoTD - watch ANY Premiership game - watch the slow motion replays of key goalmouth incidents - watch just about everybody standing.......

What do the powers that be expect us to do when we score a stunning and/or significant goal in critical matches? Should we sit passively on our hands and shout. "Hurrah for the Reds!"? Should we perhaps extend it to a polite clap of the hands and say, "Jolly good show, old chap!"? It's FOOTBALL, not the opera......

[Red-Dread]

Watch MoTD - watch ANY Premiership game - watch the slow motion replays of key goalmouth incidents - watch just about everybody standing.......

What do the powers that be expect us to do when we score a stunning and/or significant goal in critical matches? Should we sit passively on our hands and shout. "Hurrah for the Reds!"? Should we perhaps extend it to a polite clap of the hands and say, "Jolly good show, old chap!"? It's FOOTBALL, not the opera......

We know that...Unfortunately, the powers that be would clearly prefer the match to be a more sedate and passive "entertainment".

I doubt any Tory government will back rail seating, unless (god forbid) there's a bad accident caused by the current paradigm (and even then I'd imagine they would just attempt to aggressively enforce a 'remain seated' motif).

[Dench57]

We know that...Unfortunately, the powers that be would clearly prefer the match to be a more sedate and passive "entertainment".

how am I meant to enjoy my dunkin donuts and refreshing coke zero in a standing area?! madness

[kneeys]

how am I meant to enjoy my dunkin donuts and refreshing coke zero in a standing area?! madness

Neither of the above are meant to be enjoyed

[Graham Smith]

Suspiciously timed announcement knowing that many will feel the need (rightly) to hold their tongues in this week of all weeks.

[emitime]

Suspiciously timed announcement knowing that many will feel the need (rightly) to hold their tongues in this week of all weeks.

It should really be the right week for it. We should strive for the safest environment possible and standing next to seats is not that.

[Redsnappa]

Petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

[mikey_LFC]

Petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

Bump - up to 25,000 signatures. Lets get this debated.

[Wabaloolah]

Signed, need to get it to 100,000 to get it debated in parliament.  At 10,000 the government is supposed to respond.  No surprise that they haven't yet!

[sms1986]

Signed, need to get it to 100,000 to get it debated in parliament.  At 10,000 the government is supposed to respond.  No surprise that they haven't yet!

They might be Tories but to be fair, its only been waiting for a response for a day. Anyway, I’ve signed it.

[Redsnappa]

BUMP!

43,400 now.

[24/7]

Done - remember, you haven't signed until you confirm your email address in the link that they send.

[24/7]

They might be Tories but to be fair, its only been waiting for a response for a day. Anyway, I’ve signed it.

Plus remember Parliament is in recess until Monday (which is why May and BoJo appear to be trying to decide whether or not to bomb Syria this weekend, so they don't need to discuss it with our democratically-elected representatives )

[Redsnappa]

49,000 now.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

[stockdam]

Signed