Topic: Eric Blair's Labour Topic (*)

[Yorkykopite]

So given Corbyn's views about the Israeli stance on creating even more settlements and given in my opinion their inhuman treatment of the Palestinians on a daily basis what exactly would be achieved by meeting this Netanyahu it's not like their minds could meet on this matter and given the way Netanyahu slapped down May when she tried to mention the settlements it would be a pointless exercise.

Presumably when Corbyn used to meet Hamas he didn't always nod his head when Hamas started blaming the Jews for the French and Russian Revolutions and for international capitalism and when they mentioned the global Jewish underground conspiracy to enable "The Elders of Zion" to take over the world? Presumably he didn't agree when the Hamas spokesman said that they intended to eliminate Israel and send the Jews back to where they came from? I mean he must have known that these things are in the Hamas founding charter and that they remain the keystones of Hamas policy. Yet he still went on his 'peace-finding mission' and met them. 

So why not also meet the Israelis?

[ShakaHislop]

Jeremy Corbyn aide David Prescott suspended from job

A key aide to Jeremy Corbyn, and the son of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, has been suspended from his job.

David Prescott is being investigated by the Labour leader's office after he was suspended a few days ago, the BBC understands.

It comes amid widespread allegations of misconduct at Westminster.

No formal complaint has been made to the Labour Party, which declined to give a reason for the suspension.

A Labour Party spokesperson said: "We do not comment on staffing matters."

The BBC has been told his suspension relates to his "employment" after allegations were received by Mr Corbyn's office.

The nature of the claims have not been disclosed.

A former BBC TV senior producer, Mr Prescott joined the Labour leader's office over a year ago, initially as a speechwriter before becoming a communications manager to the shadow cabinet.

He stood as Labour's candidate in Gainsborough in the 2015 election, but lost to Conservative's Sir Edward Leigh.

Earlier this year, Mr Prescott failed to become an MP for Hull West and Hessle after former home secretary Alan Johnson announced he was standing down in June's election.

Mr Prescott has been approached by the BBC for a comment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41912847

[Mutton Geoff]

Netanyahu is the Prime Minister of Israel. How can you deal with the issues if you don't meet a key player? And you seem to be suggesting May is a better and stronger leader than Corbyn? Why would the fact that May (one of the worst and weakest PMs of modern times) was slapped down by Netanyahu have any bearing on Corbyn?

I'm confused because the story put out by his supporters regarding Northern Ireland was that he spoke to all sides, not just the IRA & Sinn Fein.

 I dont think May is stronger than Corbyn,  however she does for now occupy the position of Prime Minister which should have some gravitas in world politics and this Israeli leader slapped her down publically in front of the TV cameras, so Corbyn talking to this fella is a useful as pissing in the wind in my opinion.

 Makes yet another stick for the people to use in here though.

As for your last part about Northern Ireland provide a valid link to the two events if you can.

Any person can see what is happening in the Palestinian sectors are wrong and frankly inhuman and designed to enrage the population to react against them.

Funny enough though not every person living in this area is a card carrying Hamas supporter, it does make a nice generalisation to suggest they are though.

[TepidT2O]

Just as Netanyahu doesn’t represent the majority of the population of Israel..  this is why politicians meet elected officials they don’t like, they do so because they represent their country, and it is respect to that country to meet their leader...

I’m not sure how Corbyn would square the two of prime minister..



Still, the leaders of both parties are absolutely fucking useless.....  and it is the people of this country who will suffer as a result...

[killer-heels]

Just as Netanyahu doesn’t represent the majority of the population of Israel..  this is why politicians meet elected officials they don’t like, they do so because they represent their country, and it is respect to that country to meet their leader...

I’m not sure how Corbyn would square the two of prime minister..



Still, the leaders of both parties are absolutely fucking useless.....  and it is the people of this country who will suffer as a result...

How do believe Labour will be useless if they havent been in charge yet?

[TepidT2O]

How do believe Labour will be useless if they havent been in charge yet?

Extrapolation..


This isn’t me commenting on the political compass of either party.  Merely a reflection of the egregious incompetence both sides exhibit.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

How do believe Labour will be useless if they havent been in charge yet?

have you looked at the cast of muppets on their front bench? You think the likes of McDonnell, long bailey, burgon, thornberry, Abbott, Williamson and others have anywhere near the level of experience to run the country never mind competency? Those people plus the impending clusterfuck of brexit potentially being done on their watch will fuck them and give us tories for even longer afterwards, they’ve done fuck all to suggest in the last 2 years they could run a country competently and this is reflected by the current shit polling having them either level or a few point lead which dare I say had the 97 lot been there now it’d be comfortable double digits, even ed miliband was at double digits at one point and he was crap

[classycarra]

How do believe Labour will be useless if they havent been in charge yet?

To be fair, he said are not will be. And they patently are.

It's the same logic used by Brexiteers. We haven't left the EU yet, so how can we say that Brexit is a bad thing. Ironically enough that's one of the main supporting reasons for the current Labour leadership being considered useless even outside of being in Government, because they are tacit in pushing through economic suicide using arguments that looked stupid and out of date when Benn was making them 40 years ago.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

http://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/19308-the-israel-factor-priti-patel-and-emily-thornberry

Another day another bunch of anti Israel shit from the loony left, apparently most labour members share their opinion on Israel??

[Peabee]

http://www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/19308-the-israel-factor-priti-patel-and-emily-thornberry

Another day another bunch of anti Israel shit from the loony left, apparently most labour members share their opinion on Israel??

What’s wrong with being “anti-Israel”?  As long as it’s not disguised antisemitism, there’s legit reasons for criticism of Israel.

[Yorkykopite]

What’s wrong with being “anti-Israel”?  As long as it’s not disguised antisemitism, there’s legit reasons for criticism of Israel.

No reason at all.

Of course wanting to get rid of Israel altogether puts you into dangerous territory so far as anti-semitism is concerned. I mean why Israel and not Syria, or Iran, or Belarus, or China, or Venezuela - all nations with far worse human rights records than Israel? Put another way, why is it that Israel's existence alone, among the nations of the world, is constantly held up to doubt. Is it something to do with it being the only Jewish state in existence?  That question is bound to occur.

So, yeah, criticism of Israel's behaviour is perfectly legitimate. Hostility is even legitimate. But questioning its very existence is bound to throw up the suspicion that the questioner has some other, less handsome, agenda going on. It also leads to a second question - 'How are you actually going to eliminate Israel?' Obviously the only way to do this, short of persuading Israelis to wind up their country voluntarily, is by war, conquest and massive deportations of Jews to somewhere else. Do 'anti-zionists' really have the appetite to do this? The few Nazis among them may thrill to the idea, but most wouldn't surely. So what would they do instead? 

Thornberry was right of course. Labour has been a 'zionist' party since 1917. I don't think it helps to call it 'zionist' today since the state of Israel has long been an established fact. Why do you need a special word to describe a belief in the authenticity of a nation (we don't have a special word to describe those who believe in France or Australia). So I wouldn't expect Corbyn to come out and say he was a 'zionist'. However Corbyn is on record as supporting a Two-State solution. He said this less than six months ago. In essence that means he's a supporter of Israel's right to exist. A zionist by any other word.

[Alan_X]

What’s wrong with being “anti-Israel”?  As long as it’s not disguised antisemitism, there’s legit reasons for criticism of Israel.

Would it be acceptable to be "anti-France"? Being anti-[insert country here] implies a belief that the country itself is illegitimate rather than the actions of its government.

[Peabee]

Would it be acceptable to be "anti-France"? Being anti-[insert country here] implies a belief that the country itself is illegitimate rather than the actions of its government.

That’s why I put it in quotes, Alan.  It’s ok to criticise the Israeli govt surely.

Edit:  I did mention just ‘Israel’, but I do mean the govt.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

What’s wrong with being “anti-Israel”?  As long as it’s not disguised antisemitism, there’s legit reasons for criticism of Israel.

anti-Israel being being against the idea of the state of Israel

[killer-heels]

Extrapolation..


This isn’t me commenting on the political compass of either party.  Merely a reflection of the egregious incompetence both sides exhibit.

Incompetent politicians are rife at the moment in all the parties. If anything the level of ability has gotten worse over the last few decades.

At least this Labour party has some policies which I can get behind and the hope is that Labour get in and are able to put some of them into practice.

I also expect Brexit to happen and if it does then I would want a government that may be more insistent on protectionism. Thats not something I expect from the Tories, Lib Dem or many factions of the Labour party but I do of those in charge in Labour.

[classycarra]

Incompetent politicians are rife at the moment in all the parties. If anything the level of ability has gotten worse over the last few decades.

At least this Labour party has some policies which I can get behind and the hope is that Labour get in and are able to put some of them into practice.

I also expect Brexit to happen and if it does then I would want a government that may be more insistent on protectionism. Thats not something I expect from the Tories, Lib Dem or many factions of the Labour party but I do of those in charge in Labour.

As a services economy, with a balance of trade deficit, you want the UK to turn to protectionism? Why?

[TravisBickle]

That’s why I put it in quotes, Alan.  It’s ok to criticise the Israeli govt surely.

Edit:  I did mention just ‘Israel’, but I do mean the govt.

 Of course it's okay to criticise the Israeli government. I don't think anyone on these boards is a fan of Netanyahu. I have several Jewish friends (leftists) and they absolutely despise the man and the impact he's had on Israel's global reputation. One of them said the night he won reelection was as dark a day for the world as when Bush won his second term.

 Obviously there are militant Zionists who try to conflate criticism of the Israeli government with anti-Semitism (again, not on these boards) and they should be called out for it. But Corbyn refusing to meet the elected head of state really does lend credence to the idea that he believes the Israeli state is illegitimate. I mean he meant Xi Jinping and raised the human rights issue there (to his credit) so it's inconsistent for him to not do the same with Netanyahu. Especially when Netanyahu has been elected.

[filopastry]

As a services economy, with a balance of trade deficit, you want the UK to turn to protectionism? Why?

Prices in the shops aren't high enough already?

[oldfordie]

Incompetent politicians are rife at the moment in all the parties. If anything the level of ability has gotten worse over the last few decades.

At least this Labour party has some policies which I can get behind and the hope is that Labour get in and are able to put some of them into practice.

I also expect Brexit to happen and if it does then I would want a government that may be more insistent on protectionism. Thats not something I expect from the Tories, Lib Dem or many factions of the Labour party but I do of those in charge in Labour.

Sounds good but how would that work in practice.? what policies do you expect Labour to introduce.

[filopastry]

Of course it's okay to criticise the Israeli government. I don't think anyone on these boards is a fan of Netanyahu. I have several Jewish friends (leftists) and they absolutely despise the man and the impact he's had on Israel's global reputation. One of them said the night he won reelection was as dark a day for the world as when Bush won his second term.

 Obviously there are militant Zionists who try to conflate criticism of the Israeli government with anti-Semitism (again, not on these boards) and they should be called out for it. But Corbyn refusing to meet the elected head of state really does lend credence to the idea that he believes the Israeli state is illegitimate. I mean he meant Xi Jinping and raised the human rights issue there (to his credit) so it's inconsistent for him to not do the same with Netanyahu. Especially when Netanyahu has been elected.

I may be unfair, but I do get the impression that Corbyn has often liked to "pick sides" in conflicts over the years, which can be a dangerous thing to do.

There is often plenty of blame on both sides of a conflict (and yes I also have no time for the current Israeli government)

[Robinred]

Of course it's okay to criticise the Israeli government. I don't think anyone on these boards is a fan of Netanyahu. I have several Jewish friends (leftists) and they absolutely despise the man and the impact he's had on Israel's global reputation. One of them said the night he won reelection was as dark a day for the world as when Bush won his second term.

 Obviously there are militant Zionists who try to conflate criticism of the Israeli government with anti-Semitism (again, not on these boards) and they should be called out for it. But Corbyn refusing to meet the elected head of state really does lend credence to the idea that he believes the Israeli state is illegitimate. I mean he meant Xi Jinping and raised the human rights issue there (to his credit) so it's inconsistent for him to not do the same with Netanyahu. Especially when Netanyahu has been elected.

The inconsistency is, I believe, a product of his selective pragmatism. He’ll happily play politics, fudge difficult decisions, deflect, stonewall and bullshit - all tools of the trade.

But where he is lacking statesmanship is in examples like this. Palestine is such a fundamental cause for the far left (like Venezuela) that common sense, perspective and balance are jettisoned in favour of gesture/posturing politics. Like Trump, his instincts are to pander to his “base”.

[killer-heels]

As a services economy, with a balance of trade deficit, you want the UK to turn to protectionism? Why?

I dont want this countries consumer market open to free trade from around the world. It may make things cheaper, but the standards and quality will be driven down immensely. Working in retail, i see exactly how big retailers look to drive down cost and the thought of them purchasing more crap from the America’s and Asia, further killing off what industry we have left fills me with dread.

Id rather we pay more and keep our own industries afloat.

[killer-heels]

Sounds good but how would that work in practice.? what policies do you expect Labour to introduce.

I dont know, but i would want government to be more interventionist and apply tarrifs to ensure that our manufacturers, suppliers and farmers are not struggling to compete on price with the rubbish produced in Asia, North America and South America.

[filopastry]

I dont know, but i would want government to be more interventionist and apply tarrifs to ensure that our manufacturers, suppliers and farmers are not struggling to compete on price with the rubbish produced in Asia, North America and South America.

You can safely expect other countries to apply tariffs on our key industries in return of course.

I wouldn't say that buying British is a uniform guarantee of quality either, if I'm buying I buy what I would consider to best in class in my price range that is rarely British made.

[Yorkykopite]

I dont know, but i would want government to be more interventionist and apply tarrifs to ensure that our manufacturers, suppliers and farmers are not struggling to compete on price with the rubbish produced in Asia, North America and South America.

And what about raw materials and machine parts from abroad that our industries rely on to be internationally competitive? And imports on wheat as well as other agricultural products to protect our farmers, right? How tolerant will people be of that when food prices rocket?

[killer-heels]

You can safely expect other countries to apply tariffs on our key industries in return of course.

I wouldn't say that buying British is a uniform guarantee of quality either, if I'm buying I buy what I would consider to best in class in my price range and that is rarely British made.

They can and they do already as part of WTO terms. I dont want any of those tarrifs removed at all and to remain as they are.

In the areas of retail I work British products are as good if not better than any nation or region. The only area where it is as good is the rest of Europe particularly Western Europe.

Plus we have some industry left to save whether it be manufacturing, farming etc. They wont survive if we further liberalise the market, which is what the Tories want.

[classycarra]

I may be unfair, but I do get the impression that Corbyn has often liked to "pick sides" in conflicts over the years, which can be a dangerous thing to do.

There is often plenty of blame on both sides of a conflict (and yes I also have no time for the current Israeli government)

I don't think that's unfair at all. I think that's part of the reason why Corbyn and his fans only cite his opposition to the Iraq war (sometimes laughably lauding him as an oracle) rather than citing his opposition to things like NATO fighting the genocidal Milosevic, protecting an ally from invasion during the gulf war, opposing intervening to help resolve sierra leone's civil war and kosovo etc.

[killer-heels]

And what about raw materials and machine parts from abroad that our industries rely on to be internationally competitive? And imports on wheat as well as other agricultural products to protect our farmers, right? How tolerant will people be of that when food prices rocket?

We have tarrifs on those products already. The Tories want to remove them all together and completely liberalise the markets (as well as drive down standards). I dont want those tarrifs removed at all. Just keep WTO terms with the rest of the world.

[TravisBickle]

The inconsistency is, I believe, a product of his selective pragmatism. He’ll happily play politics, fudge difficult decisions, deflect, stonewall and bullshit - all tools of the trade.

But where he is lacking statesmanship is in examples like this. Palestine is such a fundamental cause for the far left (like Venezuela) that common sense, perspective and balance are jettisoned in favour of gesture/posturing politics. Like Trump, his instincts are to pander to his “base”.

 Indeed. A photo of him looking chummy with Netanyahu wouldn't go down well with bizarre anti-Semites like that dreadful Jackie Walker character and we all know how important that is to people in those circles. It was like that Owen Jones interview with Alastair Campbell, where Jones effectively admitted the only driving force behind his politics is staying current in leftist circles.

  As long as you're popular and well-received at all those marches and rallies...

[oldfordie]

I dont know, but i would want government to be more interventionist and apply tarrifs to ensure that our manufacturers, suppliers and farmers are not struggling to compete on price with the rubbish produced in Asia, North America and South America.

We are going to be negotiating new trade deals with all these countries. their not going to give us a deal that protects our industries at the expense of their industries. we can't have a trade agreement and then slap on extra tarries when we please.

[killer-heels]

We are going to be negotiating new trade deals with all these countries. their not going to give us a deal that protects our industries at the expense of the industries. we can't have a trade agreement and then slap on extra tarries when we please.

We dont need to have trade deals with countries around the world. Just trade as we do now, with WTO tarrifs.

[Alan_X]

We dont need to have trade deals with countries around the world. Just trade as we do now, with WTO tarrifs.

It's not just tariffs. What about agreements such as Mutual Recognition Agreements (MRA) on Conformity Assessment and other agreements that are necessary for trade but aren't covered by WTO rules?

[oldfordie]

We dont need to have trade deals with countries around the world. Just trade as we do now, with WTO tarrifs.

It's easy to say "WE" ive said the same thing myself but we don't actually own many of the major companies. we say the UK car market etc will be able to trade just as well after we leave the EU. what UK car market, nearly all our car manufactures are foreign owned, so will they be happy competing for trade in the WTO, why should they take a massive drop in profits when they can just move to mainland Europe, they can trade with these countries you mention on WTO terms.trade with over 70 other big nations on the EU trade deal we are about to throw away. trade with the EU on far beter terms that we will have,they would have the best of both worlds. all we will have is basic WTO trade. I doubt there will be any other country in the world with a worse trading environment after we leave.

[killer-heels]

It's not just tariffs. What about agreements such as Mutual Recognition Agreements (MRA) on Conformity Assessment and other agreements that are necessary for trade but aren't covered by WTO rules?

Why cant these be replicated in a way similar to now?

[killer-heels]

It's easy to say "WE" ive said the same thing myself but we don't actually own many of the major companies. we say the UK car market etc will be able to trade just as well after we leave the EU. what UK car market, nearly all our car manufactures are foreign owned, so will they be happy competing for trade in the WTO, why should they take a massive drop in profits when they can just move to mainland Europe, they can trade with these countries you mention on WTO terms and the rest of the EU and over 70 other big nations on the EU trade deal we are about to throw away. they would have the best of both worlds. all we will have is basic WTO trade. I doubt there will be any other country in the world with a worse trading environment after we leave.

Free trade in the EU is fine. The quality, standards and relative price is high. Its the rest of the world i have issues with.

[oldfordie]

Free trade in the EU is fine. The quality, standards and relative price is high. Its the rest of the world i have issues with.

The cake and eat it Brexit is not going to happen.

[killer-heels]

The cake and eat it Brexit is not going to happen.

The cake and eat it is free trade with everyone, whilst being able to set your own immigration rules and have a court that has precedent over others. That is not what I am arguing for.

[Alan_X]

Why cant these be replicated in a way similar to now?

They can be in one of two ways:

1. Stay in the EU (the 'bleeding obvious' option).

2. Spend ten years (or more) negotiating them.

It's hard to summarise how much of a car crash Brexit is going to be because world trade is such a complicated thing in the modern world.

There are no simple solutions and if anyone suggests there are the best advice is to assume they are either: a) ideologically motivated; b) ignorant of the realities; or c) both.

I'm not having a dig at you. I'm just depressed that we are being walked to the gallows. I was trying to think of a way of conveying how I feel about Brexit and this was the closest I could get. We are the prisoner, hobbling towards the gallows. A healthy country that is heading inevitably for an ultimately pointless fate.

It was about forty yards to the gallows. I watched the bare brown back of
the prisoner marching in front of me. He walked clumsily with his bound
arms, but quite steadily, with that bobbing gait of the Indian who never
straightens his knees. At each step his muscles slid neatly into place,
the lock of hair on his scalp danced up and down, his feet printed
themselves on the wet gravel. And once, in spite of the men who gripped
him by each shoulder, he stepped slightly aside to avoid a puddle on the
path.

It is curious, but till that moment I had never realized what it means to
destroy a healthy, conscious man. When I saw the prisoner step aside to
avoid the puddle, I saw the mystery, the unspeakable wrongness, of
cutting a life short when it is in full tide. This man was not dying, he
was alive just as we were alive. All the organs of his body were working
--bowels digesting food, skin renewing itself, nails growing, tissues
forming--all toiling away in solemn foolery. His nails would still be
growing when he stood on the drop, when he was falling through the air
with a tenth of a second to live. His eyes saw the yellow gravel and the
grey walls, and his brain still remembered, foresaw, reasoned--reasoned
even about puddles. He and we were a party of men walking together,
seeing, hearing, feeling, understanding the same world; and in two
minutes, with a sudden snap, one of us would be gone--one mind less, one
world less.

A Hanging, George Orwell

[killer-heels]

They can be in one of two ways:

1. Stay in the EU (the 'bleeding obvious' option).

2. Spend ten years (or more) negotiating them.

It's hard to summarise how much of a car crash Brexit is going to be because world trade is such a complicated thing in the modern world.

There are no simple solutions and if anyone suggests there are the best advice is to assume they are either: a) ideologically motivated; b) ignorant of the realities; or c) both.

I'm not having a dig at you. I'm just depressed that we are being walked to the gallows. I was trying to think of a way of conveying how I feel about Brexit and this was the closest I could get. We are the prisoner, hobbling towards the gallows. A healthy country that is heading inevitably for an ultimately pointless fate.

A Hanging, George Orwell

Its all very complicated and I am not suggesting it is easy.

[oldfordie]

The cake and eat it is free trade with everyone, whilst being able to set your own immigration rules and have a court that has precedent over others. That is not what I am arguing for.

A free trade deal with everyone,? you said on WTO terms. one of the main reasons the EU won't give us a deal is they wont allow us to make great deals around the world, we would be able to import materials we've been able to buy far cheaper from around the world and export our goods made from materials we've bought far cheaper. we would be able to undercut the EU, the EU know it would be the end of the EU. brilliant for the UK, Boom time but it's no going to happen.
This is protectionism we should be valuing not throwing away.