Topic: The Vietnam War - BBC 4

[goalspaytherent]

I've been watching this series over the last couple of weeks , ten years in the making ...a truly astonishing documentary with so much raw footage within . Basically charts the history of the country from the 1850s up to the war itself ....totally recommend this to anyone with an interest in these kind if things .

[TheRedBaron]

Television at its absolute best. I look forward to it every week.

[The Gulleysucker]

Even though I was a schoolkid in my teens at the time and remember much of the footage as having been beamed nightly on TV news, it's been very good.

What's revealing and new to me was the voice tapes of the various players.

That's been fascinating, to hear how so many in positions of responsibility were expressing their doubts so early on yet somehow got sucked into an ever spiralling and costly and unwinnable (and immoral) situation.

[classycarra]

Can't wait to dig into this.

A note to all those 'sourcing' this. Apparently the episodes screened on PBS have 5-10 minutes extra over the BBC4 version each episode.

[Libertine]

Currently on episode 3 - superb stuff. Certainly has made my commute more interesting.

That's been fascinating, to hear how so many in positions of responsibility were expressing their doubts so early on yet somehow got sucked into an ever spiralling and costly and unwinnable (and immoral) situation.

That's what's struck me strongest so far - the almost inevitability of the war (and its outcome I suppose).

Kennedy and Johnson could see the problems and how it was probably unwinnable, but politically couldn't lose another country to communism so felt forced to commit more and more and end up supporting a dreadful regime with hopeless armed forces.

[robertobaggio37]

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-killing-of-history

[goalspaytherent]

Watched 5 and 6 last night , into the years 66-68 .... So brutal and the losses on both sides were horrendous ....what's amazing is the amount of actual footage shown from the ' battlefields ' themselves, those cameramen were either brave or mental......so many harrowing scenes and gut wrenching stories told by those who were there ....some of the Viet Cong guys interviewed are exactly how you would see them portrayed in the movies ...so focused and brutally ruthless , but they suffered so much as well ....a truly incredible television programme ...It's deserves to be the mentioned in the same bracket as ' The World at War ' documentary from the 70s

[goalspaytherent]

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-killing-of-history

I haven't watched this a bias to either side , I just see all war for what it is ...most of the time unnecessary but always very sad ...

[classycarra]

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-killing-of-history

Would you mind pasting the article please? Would rather not give the liar the clicks

[Nobby Reserve]

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-killing-of-history

Oh thanks.

I was up to episode 5 and really 'enjoying' it (from an edumacational perspective) but reading that puts a lot into perspective.

Funny how subtle propaganda can be...

[classycarra]

Funny how subtle propaganda can be...

He's stuck it up on his website and is publicising it, it's hardly subtle

[Nobby Reserve]

He's stuck it up on his website and is publicising it, it's hardly subtle

Lol.

[Alan_X]

I haven't watched this a bias to either side , I just see all war for what it is ...most of the time unnecessary but always very sad ...

And I don't think Pilger has watched the series based on the article. Episode 4 (titled 'Doubt') talks about the use of body count:

Voiceover: "Since there was no front in Vietnam as there had been in the First and Second World Wars, since no ground was ever permanently won or lost, the American military command in Vietnam, MACV, fell back more and more on a single grisly measure of supposed success - counting corpses, body count."

James Willbank, Army Advisor: "The problem with the war, as it often is, are the metrics. It is a situation where if you can't count what's important, you make what you can count important. So in this particular case what you could count was dead enemy bodies."

Graphics overlaid on image of dead Vietnamese: Operation White Wing 2389 KIA, Operation Thayer II 1757 KIA, Operation Hastings 882 KIA, Operation Attleborough 1106 KIA, Operation Hawthorn 531 KIA, Operatipn Fairfax 1043 KIA, Operation Paul revere 977 KIA...

Voiceover: "If body count is the measure of success, then there's a tendency to count every body as an enemy soldier.

Robert Gard, Army: "There's a tendency to pile up dead bodies, and perhaps to use less discriminate firepower than you otherwise might in order to achieve the desired result that you're charged with trying to obtain."

Video of US troops piling up dead Vietnamese bodies in piles reminiscent of the concentration camps...

Later in the same episode they describe how one US commander offered a crate of whisky to the first man to bring the hacked off head  of an enemy soldier... "they did" (image of decapitated vietcong).

The same episode talks about the increased bombing, the "...Operation Rolling Thunder.... ...Tens of thousands of sorties were flown. Many bombs hit their intended targets, but many missed and fell on residential neighbourhoods instead..."

There's an exchange between Johnson and MacNamara where MacNamara says that the bombing is not killing enough for military victory but may be killing enough to destroy morale of those fighting in the South... Johnson says carry on bombing...

Images of aftermath of the bombing and descriptions saying many in the north were killed including children.

The episode closes with the story of a soldier's first experience when his company of 130 men suffered 76 men killed with only 9 or 10 enemy dead. The Army's press release claimed they had killed 475 'red's... "...This was the first time I had to come to grips with the fact that the leadership was either out of touch or lying..."

And so on. It's obviously told from the American perspective but it's honest about the bad things that the Americans did. It's far more useful to understand how these things actually happen rather than use Pilger's cartoon characterisation of every American as a bloodthirsty baby killer. And fuck knows what Hillary Clinton has to do with the Vietnam War.

[rafathegaffa83]

And so on. It's obviously told from the American perspective but it's honest about the bad things that the Americans did. It's far more useful to understand how these things actually happen rather than use Pilger's cartoon characterisation of every American as a bloodthirsty baby killer. And fuck knows what Hillary Clinton has to do with the Vietnam War.

This.

The series really starts to take off in my opinion from the Tet episode onwards. It also crucially includes a history of the French involvement in Vietnam (which most American takes on the subject overlook) to show how the Americans very quickly repeated all of the mistakes the French made and then some. 

Kennedy and Johnson could see the problems and how it was probably unwinnable, but politically couldn't lose another country to communism so felt forced to commit more and more and end up supporting a dreadful regime with hopeless armed forces.

Which is another important aspect for the average American viewer. The fact that from the beginning none of them really knew it was winnable should be an outrage. Even McNamara with all his years of statistical analysis at his disposal. And then you have the just blatant deceit from Johnson's Gulf of Tonkin down to Nixon derailing the peace process as a tool to get elected.

[The Gulleysucker]

...It also crucially includes a history of the French involvement in Vietnam (which most American takes on the subject overlook) to show how the Americans very quickly repeated all of the mistakes the French made and then some. 

There's an obscure Burt Lancaster film, Go Tell The Spartans released the same year as the Deer Hunter but largely forgotten these days. It highlighted the very early years of US special forces involvement in Vietnam in '64 and the repetition of the same mistakes the French had made in assuming it was a militarily winnable conflict. I haven't seen it since the early 80's and it may not have aged well, but it really should be as well known than the other more well known Vietnam set films.

[The Gulleysucker]

I think we've had this discussion about Pilger more than a few times now on here.

He's gone way off beam these days and seeks always to portray all the woes of the world as being caused by the evil US and never as the fault of anyone else.

I suppose he's consistent and his increasingly shrill and doom laden articles must be comforting for people who share his mindset.

But yes, quite what his rant about Hilary Clinton was about tagged onto that diatribe, God only knows.

[Nobby Reserve]

Oh thanks.

I was up to episode 5 and really 'enjoying' it (from an edumacational perspective) but reading that puts a lot into perspective.

Funny how subtle propaganda can be...

Bloodyhell. I'm this guy now:



After watching episode 5 (and part of 6), I agree that it's not nearly as biased as Pilger would have it, and paints some brutal truths about the sickening policies and actions of the US military and government. But Pilger is 100% correct to berate the makers for their opening narrative that the Vietnam War "was begun in good faith by decent people out of fateful misunderstandings, American overconfidence and Cold War misunderstandings". And for their grovelling tribute to Bank of America.

[Alan_X]

But Pilger is 100% correct to berate the makers for their opening narrative that the Vietnam War "was begun in good faith by decent people out of fateful misunderstandings, American overconfidence and Cold War misunderstandings"...

100% correct? It's very easy to write in 2017 about the motives leading up to the start of military action. The seeds of the conflict lie in the end of the Second World War when the south was occupied by Allied forces and the north by the Chinese. The US were sending military advisers and giving assistance to the South but the same was happening in the North with Chinese advisers and support. America did dreadful things during the Cold War but so did the Chinese and the Russians. And in the country Diem was a godawful leader but under Ho Ch MInh 15,000 - 50,000 people were executed during 'land reform'.

If Pilger is right then every American politician is or was uniquely evil. He allows no quarter - they knew what they were doing and the intention from the start wasn't a response to the horrors of the Second World War, the aggressive expansionism of the Chinese and the USSR  but were purely and simply about murdering as many Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians as possible and deliberately laying waste to their countries.

I think Westmoreland is the closest to that caricature - he was an awful commander and strategist and a dreadful man. Was Truman not a decent man? Was Kennedy a bloodthirsty killer desperate to commit genocide? 

It's easy to knock holes in the Domino Theory in retrospect but this was on the back of Germany invading Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria Belgium, France and so on and after the War, Russia annexing Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and creating satellite states up to and beyond the old German border.

Pilger has become a parody of himself. There is no greater evil than the United States for him. If you search for condemnation of Putin's aggression towards the Ukraine all you'll find with Pilger's byline is attack after attack on Obama or Clinton. It's not Putin's fault he had to invade a sovereign country - Obama made him do it.

On Russia's intervention in the 2016 election? A cock-sucking interview with Assange blaming Hillary and denying the Russians had anything to do with it.

He was one of my heroes growing up. Now, it's getting to the stage where he might as well broadcast with Alex Jones or David Icke. There's no pretence of investigative journalism - he knows what the story is and selects the evidence to suit.

[red mongoose]

One of my earliest memories was driving with my mom to the National Guard barracks close to our house in around 1972 to pick my dad up from his ... whatever duties he had there, knowing somehow that something dark was afoot in the world, and wondering if my dad was going to have to be a part of it. I still flinch at the thought of it. My uncle was actually over there, but everyone has told me not to mention it to him, and I haven't in all these years, despite desperately wanting to know every detail. Now I'm just across the way in Bangkok, but I haven't managed to make it over there yet. Like with Hiroshima, I want to go and stand there in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh city, just to soak it in, but I'm not really sure why.

[Nobby Reserve]

100% correct? It's very easy to write in 2017 about the motives leading up to the start of military action. The seeds of the conflict lie in the end of the Second World War when the south was occupied by Allied forces and the north by the Chinese. The US were sending military advisers and giving assistance to the South but the same was happening in the North with Chinese advisers and support. America did dreadful things during the Cold War but so did the Chinese and the Russians. And in the country Diem was a godawful leader but under Ho Ch MInh 15,000 - 50,000 people were executed during 'land reform'.

If Pilger is right then every American politician is or was uniquely evil. He allows no quarter - they knew what they were doing and the intention from the start wasn't a response to the horrors of the Second World War, the aggressive expansionism of the Chinese and the USSR  but were purely and simply about murdering as many Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians as possible and deliberately laying waste to their countries.

Whilst I don't believe that US politicians were operating out of pure evil, I equally don't believe that their motives were noble.

You set the beginnings of the Vietnam War against the context of the aftermath of WW2, and the points you make are pertinent, but it was also a time of vicious anti-communism within the US, where American citizens were arrested, interned, aggressively interrogated, blacklisted (by the state) from their professions - simply for their political beliefs. In the aftermath of WW2, there were shades of fascism about the actions of the US for nigh on two decades. The US establishment (and the US state, more than any other developed country, is influenced/controlled by corporate interests) was terrified of losing its grip on power, with the control and wealth that came with that, so were doggedly set on destroying any leftist regime (not just outwardly communist, but simply what we would now deem 'progressive') and undermining left-leaning governments which were democratically elected.

As I've said, this was for 'economic' reasons - to protect both the economic interests of US corporations globally; and to ensure that socialism/leftist could not gain even the tiniest of hand-holds in US politics, so that the US government continued to be a closed-shop carve-up between two right-of-centre, pro-corporate, pro-capitalism parties.

Their reasons for becoming militarily involved in Vietnam stem from this ethos.

Yes, we had Russia and [in the SE Asia region] China seeking to spread their influence, although Stalin had of course turned away from Trotsky's ComIntern vision and was more selective of the countries he wished the USSR to control (with the accent on retaining a buffer zone around Russia; memories of WW2 were still fresh there, too). Communist regimes had shown themselves to become quickly corrupted from their initial aims of freedom from the tyrannical oppression of the owners of capital, and imposed their own [even more brutal] oppressions.  I agree with you that they aren't in any way to be venerated - but that doesn't mean we should accept any ideology/regime simply because it opposes the mutated version of 'authoritarian communism'.

But let's not forget that the Vietnam War itself began as a quest for freedom from imperial tyranny. Ho Chi Minh didn't begin the war as a devout communist - indeed, as the programme made clear, he initially sought out agreements with the US for assistance and was himself pro-US; it was only when the US broke its promises and threw its lot in with the French imperialists and their stooge despots that Ho turned to China. He was later marginalised anyway, by a much more hardline communist.

[classycarra]

Whilst I don't believe that US politicians were operating out of pure evil, I equally don't believe that their motives were noble.

You set the beginnings of the Vietnam War against the context of the aftermath of WW2, and the points you make are pertinent, but it was also a time of vicious anti-communism within the US, where American citizens were arrested, interned, aggressively interrogated, blacklisted (by the state) from their professions - simply for their political beliefs. In the aftermath of WW2, there were shades of fascism about the actions of the US for nigh on two decades. The US establishment (and the US state, more than any other developed country, is influenced/controlled by corporate interests) was terrified of losing its grip on power, with the control and wealth that came with that, so were doggedly set on destroying any leftist regime (not just outwardly communist, but simply what we would now deem 'progressive') and undermining left-leaning governments which were democratically elected.

As I've said, this was for 'economic' reasons - to protect both the economic interests of US corporations globally; and to ensure that socialism/leftist could not gain even the tiniest of hand-holds in US politics, so that the US government continued to be a closed-shop carve-up between two right-of-centre, pro-corporate, pro-capitalism parties.

Their reasons for becoming militarily involved in Vietnam stem from this ethos.

Yes, we had Russia and [in the SE Asia region] China seeking to spread their influence, although Stalin had of course turned away from Trotsky's ComIntern vision and was more selective of the countries he wished the USSR to control (with the accent on retaining a buffer zone around Russia; memories of WW2 were still fresh there, too). Communist regimes had shown themselves to become quickly corrupted from their initial aims of freedom from the tyrannical oppression of the owners of capital, and imposed their own [even more brutal] oppressions.  I agree with you that they aren't in any way to be venerated - but that doesn't mean we should accept any ideology/regime simply because it opposes the mutated version of 'authoritarian communism'.

But let's not forget that the Vietnam War itself began as a quest for freedom from imperial tyranny. Ho Chi Minh didn't begin the war as a devout communist - indeed, as the programme made clear, he initially sought out agreements with the US for assistance and was himself pro-US; it was only when the US broke its promises and threw its lot in with the French imperialists and their stooge despots that Ho turned to China. He was later marginalised anyway, by a much more hardline communist.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that view in your explanation of China and Russia's motivation potentially contradictory to your view on the US's motivation being solely economic?

[Nobby Reserve]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that view in your explanation of China and Russia's motivation potentially contradictory to your view on the US's motivation being solely economic?

I'm honestly not sure I understand your question, sorry.

I was just giving my personal view of the reasons behind why the US got involved, in response to a poster's inference (how I read it) that the motives of the US weren't necessarily 'bad', whilst trying to pre-empt any accusations I was just anti-US/pro-communist by making clear I thought the USSR/Chine were also bad bastards.

[Yiannis]

Whilst I don't believe that US politicians were operating out of pure evil, I equally don't believe that their motives were noble.

You set the beginnings of the Vietnam War against the context of the aftermath of WW2, and the points you make are pertinent, but it was also a time of vicious anti-communism within the US, where American citizens were arrested, interned, aggressively interrogated, blacklisted (by the state) from their professions - simply for their political beliefs. In the aftermath of WW2, there were shades of fascism about the actions of the US for nigh on two decades. The US establishment (and the US state, more than any other developed country, is influenced/controlled by corporate interests) was terrified of losing its grip on power, with the control and wealth that came with that, so were doggedly set on destroying any leftist regime (not just outwardly communist, but simply what we would now deem 'progressive') and undermining left-leaning governments which were democratically elected.

As I've said, this was for 'economic' reasons - to protect both the economic interests of US corporations globally; and to ensure that socialism/leftist could not gain even the tiniest of hand-holds in US politics, so that the US government continued to be a closed-shop carve-up between two right-of-centre, pro-corporate, pro-capitalism parties.

Their reasons for becoming militarily involved in Vietnam stem from this ethos.

Amen.

[Ray K]

Remember, America did not lose the Vietnam War. It was a tie.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

It's sensationally captivating television. And, having visited Vietnam in more modern times, absolutely heartbreaking to see such a beautiful nation divided and destroyed for little purpose.

[Flinstone]

Brothers and sisters, I'm here to tell you that I charge the White man. I charge the White man with being the greatest murderer on earth. I charge the White man with being the greatest kidnapper on earth. There is no place in this world that that man can go and say he created peace and harmony. Everywhere he's gone he's created havoc. Everywhere he's gone he's created destruction. So I charge him. I charge him with being the greatest kidnapper on this earth. I charge him with being the greatest murderer on this earth. I charge him with being the greatest robber and enslaver on this earth. I charge the White man with being the greatest swine-eater on this earth, the greatest drunkard on this earth.

He can't deny the charges. You can't deny the charges. We're the living proof of those charges. You and I are the proof. You're not an American, you are the victim of America. You didn't have a choice coming over here. He didn't say, "Black man, Black woman, come on over and help me build America." He said, "Nigger, get down in the bottom of that boat and I'm taking you over there to help me build America." Being born here does not make you an American. I'm not an American. You're not an American. You are one of twenty-two million Black people who are the victims of America.

You and I, we've never seen any democracy. We ain't seen no democracy in the cotton fields of Georgia. That wasn't no democracy down there. We didn't see any democracy on the streets of Harlem and the streets of Brooklyn and the streets of Detroit and Chicago. That wasn't democracy down there. No, we've never seen democracy; all we've seen is hypocrisy. We don't see any American dream. We've experienced only the American nightmare.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Brothers and sisters, I'm here to tell you that I charge the White man. I charge the White man with being the greatest murderer on earth. I charge the White man with being the greatest kidnapper on earth. There is no place in this world that that man can go and say he created peace and harmony. Everywhere he's gone he's created havoc. Everywhere he's gone he's created destruction. So I charge him. I charge him with being the greatest kidnapper on this earth. I charge him with being the greatest murderer on this earth. I charge him with being the greatest robber and enslaver on this earth. I charge the White man with being the greatest swine-eater on this earth, the greatest drunkard on this earth.

He can't deny the charges. You can't deny the charges. We're the living proof of those charges. You and I are the proof. You're not an American, you are the victim of America. You didn't have a choice coming over here. He didn't say, "Black man, Black woman, come on over and help me build America." He said, "Nigger, get down in the bottom of that boat and I'm taking you over there to help me build America." Being born here does not make you an American. I'm not an American. You're not an American. You are one of twenty-two million Black people who are the victims of America.

You and I, we've never seen any democracy. We ain't seen no democracy in the cotton fields of Georgia. That wasn't no democracy down there. We didn't see any democracy on the streets of Harlem and the streets of Brooklyn and the streets of Detroit and Chicago. That wasn't democracy down there. No, we've never seen democracy; all we've seen is hypocrisy. We don't see any American dream. We've experienced only the American nightmare.

Too much coffee this afternoon, Malcolm?

[Alan_X]

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-killing-of-history

Watching episodes 7 & 8 now which cover, among other things, the killing of civilians in general and My Lai in particular. They are called out as war crimes. It covers the widening of bombing into Cambodia and the fact that more bombs were dropped than in WW2.

Pilger really is a prick. It's a really good series that has interesting interviews with people on both sides of the fighting and both sides of the conflict at home. 

[Nobby Reserve]

Watching episodes 7 & 8 now which cover, among other things, the killing of civilians in general and My Lai in particular. They are called out as war crimes. It covers the widening of bombing into Cambodia and the fact that more bombs were dropped than in WW2.

Pilger really is a prick. It's a really good series that has interesting interviews with people on both sides of the fighting and both sides of the conflict at home.

I've seen up to episode 7, now - Nixon was an absolute shit. I didn't know that, after an enormous diplomatic effort, all protagonists had finally agreed to peace talks in 1968, which were due to be held just after the US election. As this gave the pro-peace Democratic candidate Herbert Humphrey a poll boost, Nixon, through intermediaries, had the South Vietnamese generals contacted, to pass on a message that was broadly "Pull out of the peace talks, because when I'm president I'll get you a better settlement" They agreed, the peace talks collapsed with Nguyen van Thieu very publicly announcing he would not attend, and Nixon won by 0.7% of the vote. The FBI had been bugging  Anna Chennault (Nixon ally and his conduit to the South Vietnam generals), along with the South Vietnamese ambassador to Washington, and had heard the messages being relayed in what is pretty unambiguous language. Yet that bastard Hoover, an ally of Nixon, didn't hand this information to Johnson.

A further 20,763 US servicemen died before the Vietnam War ended, whilst hundreds of thousands/millions more Vietnamese/Laotian people also perished as a direct result of the war.

[Nobby Reserve]

Oh, and whilst I agree with Pilger's comments questioning the opening narrative about the motives of the US personnel who began the war (and I understand his antipathy towards the Bank of America), I concede that he's been way off in his other criticism of what has been an excellent and unusually impartial series

[Ziltoid]

On the 69-70 when they talk about killing innocents, reminds me of the film Casualties of War which is a superb, yet brutal film. Saw in a cinema on a ferry, about half the audience left before the end.

[robertobaggio37]

Oh, and whilst I agree with Pilger's comments questioning the opening narrative about the motives of the US personnel who began the war (and I understand his antipathy towards the Bank of America), I concede that he's been way off in his other criticism of what has been an excellent and unusually impartial series

Cheers for that, gonna watch it later this week

[classycarra]

Finally finished this. I don't know about others, but I could scarcely watch one at a time (I watched the PBS broadcasted versions, each were film length). So much detail, I wouldn't dare switch off for a minute.

Incredible series.

[Ray K]

Finally finished this. I don't know about others, but I could scarcely watch one at a time (I watched the PBS broadcasted versions, each were film length). So much detail, I wouldn't dare switch off for a minute.

Incredible series.

I thought the penultimate episode, featuring the Veterans Against the War (or whatever that group was called), and their protest at the White House, throwing their medals at the WH, was a powerful episode.

Overall the series is a remarkable achievement.

[classycarra]

I thought the penultimate episode, featuring the Veterans Against the War (or whatever that group was called), and their protest at the White House, throwing their medals at the WH, was a powerful episode.

Overall the series is a remarkable achievement.

Yes, me too. Imagine being locked out with barriers, to prevent you from peacefully returning your medals.

A large number of deeply upsetting moments throughout, a lot of poignant commentary from the Americans and Vietnamese caught up in it all, and some incredibly powerful life affirming moments too.

As a brit, I have to confess to knowing very little outside of the basics of the war, and all that's seeped through from popular culture. This series was iluminating

[Pheeny]

Wonderful series,I'm of the age that can remember the latter years of the war.Also made even more interesting as my son's Girlfriend is Vietnamese. 

[Pistolero]

goanner do this in when I'm off over Xmas...cant wait

[FlashingBlade]

goanner do this in when I'm off over Xmas...cant wait

Suggest you watch after the festivities cos its compellinng viewing and stunning...you will litterally be stunned , even after all these years it left me gobsmacked , horrifed and angered and moved to tears. As good as  TV as Ive ever seen.

[bogrollsbike]

Very good series,up there with The World at War for me.

[wz4jc3]

The best thing I have seen on TV this year and for some time. Of like me, you don't know much about the war, it's a must!

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