Author Topic: Catalan Independence  (Read 45141 times)

Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #200 on: October 1, 2017, 09:39:55 pm »
Really? Wasn't aware of that. Really can't see the EU doing anything about this though.
The Guardia Civil is the oldest law enforcement agency in Spain. It is organised as a military force charged with police duties under the authority of both the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Defence.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #201 on: October 1, 2017, 09:41:31 pm »
The Tories did what they thought was politically expedient. They thought the referendum would be won easily (far easier than it was) and that it would make the issue go away for decades.

Agreed, but it was still done the right way which is democratically, the Scottish people wanted a referendum, one was arranged, the topic debated and people voted at the end with no real violence. You have to remember how rare that actually is, in most similar situations across the globe violence on one or both sides is pretty much a part of the process sadly.
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Offline sms1986

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #202 on: October 1, 2017, 09:52:23 pm »
"Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says region has won right to independence after Sunday's contentious referendum"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #203 on: October 1, 2017, 10:08:11 pm »
Guy Verhofstadt? Thought you would know him.... Belgian MEP and the European Parliaments chief Brexit negotiator.
I’m genuinely too distressed by the whole Brexit debacle to invest time in getting too involved in it at the moment..

That’s my excuse.. ;D
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Offline The North Bank

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #204 on: October 1, 2017, 10:12:03 pm »
Some horrible scenes on the news. Police dragging women by their hair, real nasty stuff.
Not sure that was necessary.

Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #205 on: October 1, 2017, 10:14:20 pm »
One of the most surreal things about this entire debacle, is the fact that these thugs arrived in Barcelona aboard this boat..


Spain hires Looney Tunes cruise liner to house thousands of police in rebel Catalonia

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #206 on: October 1, 2017, 10:15:44 pm »
Reports are in that Independance won the vote. Not a surprise of course.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719

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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #207 on: October 1, 2017, 10:17:11 pm »
Reports are in that Independance won the vote. Not a surprise of course.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719

How many actually voted though?
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #208 on: October 1, 2017, 10:19:41 pm »
How many actually voted though?

I assume it's been mentioned already but the people that went out to vote were probably in favour of independence. I don't think there'd have been much point in potentially getting caught up in the brutality just to vote to remain anyway.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #209 on: October 1, 2017, 10:20:03 pm »
How many actually voted though?

Well its a vote that wont be recognised anyway so not that relevant.  However as I mentioned earlier if you are voting and risking a kicking from the cops you are not going to be voting against independence. 
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline sms1986

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #210 on: October 1, 2017, 10:21:05 pm »
I assume it's been mentioned already but the people that went out to vote were probably in favour of independence. I don't think there'd have been much point in potentially getting caught up in the brutality just to vote to remain anyway.

In the last one in 2014 80%+ voted for independence.


Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #211 on: October 1, 2017, 10:21:26 pm »
The Guardia Civil is the oldest law enforcement agency in Spain. It is organised as a military force charged with police duties under the authority of both the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Defence.

You learn something new everyday.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #212 on: October 1, 2017, 10:22:01 pm »
True I guess.
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Offline kesey

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #213 on: October 1, 2017, 10:23:34 pm »
Why do they want out mate...

Interested in hearing the full picture...

They want independance .

Just spoke to my Catalun sister and she is in fucking tears.
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Offline Trada

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #214 on: October 1, 2017, 10:24:06 pm »
#BREAKING Merkel calls @marianorajoy, asking for explanations of police brutality in Catalonia.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #215 on: October 1, 2017, 10:25:25 pm »
They want independance .

Just spoke to my Catalun sister and she is in fucking tears.
Why mate, what are the fundamental reasons for it...?
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #216 on: October 1, 2017, 10:28:23 pm »
Why mate, what are the fundamental reasons for it...?
Quote
Catalonia's grievances with Madrid
Barcelona has become one of the EU's best-loved cities, famed for its 1992 Summer Olympics, trade fairs, football and tourism.
But Spain's 2008 economic crisis hit Catalonia hard, leaving it with 19% unemployment (compared with 21% nationally).
It is one of Spain's wealthiest regions, making up 16% of the national population and accounting for almost 19% of Spanish GDP. But there is a widespread feeling that the central government takes much more than it gives back.

It does appear to take more than it gives - though the complexity of budget transfers makes it hard to judge exactly how much more Catalans contribute in taxes than they get back from investment in services such as schools and hospitals.
According to 2014 figures, Catalonia paid €9.89bn more into Spain's tax authorities than it received in spending - the equivalent of 5% of its GDP.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29478415

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #217 on: October 1, 2017, 10:29:20 pm »
Why mate, what are the fundamental reasons for it...?

Look at it the other way - what’s the fundamental reason why they shouldn’t be independent?
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #218 on: October 1, 2017, 10:30:19 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29478415
I know that, but surely there’s more to it than that?

This seems to come down to simple greed (or jealousy?). Looking at the people who are protesting, I just can’t imagine it’s just that..
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #219 on: October 1, 2017, 10:30:54 pm »
Look at it the other way - what’s the fundamental reason why they shouldn’t be independent?
I could write quite a lot about this.. but I’m too lazy..
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline kesey

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #220 on: October 1, 2017, 10:33:50 pm »
And this goes deeper than Catalun indepence.

It's pure fucking Fascism slaying the human heart.

Divide and Rule and that old chestnut .

This one has really got to me .
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #221 on: October 1, 2017, 10:33:54 pm »
International observers say Spainish State acted out of hand and no voters provocked violence.
Y.N.W.A.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #222 on: October 1, 2017, 10:35:14 pm »
I could write quite a lot about this.. but I’m too lazy..

Well then don’t be surprised if no one answers your question either!

But the long and short of it was we both saw the Scottish referendum, and I would guess most if not all of the same reasons and arguments on both sides could be applied here (minus probably oil)
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Offline kesey

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #223 on: October 1, 2017, 10:35:38 pm »
Why mate, what are the fundamental reasons for it...?

I don't to science.

We wanted Justice.

They want independance.

No calculator needed.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #224 on: October 1, 2017, 10:38:52 pm »
I know that, but surely there’s more to it than that?

This seems to come down to simple greed (or jealousy?). Looking at the people who are protesting, I just can’t imagine it’s just that..

https://www.bustle.com/p/why-does-catalonia-want-to-leave-spain-madrid-is-resisting-catalans-vote-for-independence-2478572

This article explains a multitude of reasons apart from the financial aspect. This bit stood out to me:

Quote
It's not the only way Catalans feel they are being mistreated by Madrid. In 2010, the Constitutional Court stripped Catalonia of some of its regional decision-making powers, and removed language from a 2006 statute describing Catalonia as a "nation." That move upset many in the region.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #225 on: October 1, 2017, 10:39:47 pm »
I definitely hope they get independence now.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #226 on: October 1, 2017, 10:40:13 pm »
https://www.bustle.com/p/why-does-catalonia-want-to-leave-spain-madrid-is-resisting-catalans-vote-for-independence-2478572

This article explains a multitude of reasons apart from the financial aspect. This bit stood out to me:

Cheers, that’s very informative
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #227 on: October 1, 2017, 10:40:34 pm »
I could write quite a lot about this.. but I’m too lazy..

Why shouldnt they? Stronger together isnt a good reason. A disney reason maybe, but not a real world reason.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #228 on: October 1, 2017, 10:41:59 pm »
Why shouldnt they? Stronger together isnt a good reason. A disney reason maybe, but not a real world reason.
Oh goodness. It’s in every way a reason, and for so many different reasons that stem from it..
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #229 on: October 1, 2017, 10:43:00 pm »
Oh goodness. It’s in every way a reason, and for so many different reasons that stem from it..

Stronger together, with their military police who like to beat the shit out of us if we get a bit uppity.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #230 on: October 1, 2017, 10:47:30 pm »
Stronger together, with their military police who like to beat the shit out of us if we get a bit uppity.
Inspite of them ...yes...

Mind you, in the case of discrimination of communities are acts of violence against specific groups, I don’t think you are stronger together, the Madrid government didn’t their damnedest to ruin their own country,
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #231 on: October 1, 2017, 10:48:09 pm »
Look at it the other way - what’s the fundamental reason why they shouldn’t be independent?
Because they, along with 92% of the rest of Spain, agreed in a referendum on a constitution that calls on the "indissoluble unity of the spanish nation". Because this referendum was illegal under that constitution. Because the rest of the country they are part of is affected greatly by whether they stay or don't stay; those rural parts of Spain need support from Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia. Because it could be the beginning of even further calls for independence from other regions. Because they already have autonomy, face no repression economically or otherwise, aren't on the back of any war etc. Because in the mess that is the world at the moment, the last thing we need is more division. Because polling suggests that actually, Catalunyans don't actually want independence. 

Offline elsewhere

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #232 on: October 1, 2017, 10:57:25 pm »
Now that the results suggest people voted for independence, what would be the next step for Catalans to take?
It will be hard to expect Spanish government to approve a legal/official referandum there as the results will remain the same.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #233 on: October 1, 2017, 10:57:38 pm »
There is no question .

Independence .

My Cataluyn friends are fucking ripped in two tonight.

There is no debate needed here.

Its the same as a people saying about us about why do we want Justice ?

Fuck you Franco .


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The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #234 on: October 1, 2017, 11:00:16 pm »
Because they, along with 92% of the rest of Spain, agreed in a referendum on a constitution that calls on the "indissoluble unity of the spanish nation". Because this referendum was illegal under that constitution. Because the rest of the country they are part of is affected greatly by whether they stay or don't stay; those rural parts of Spain need support from Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia. Because it could be the beginning of even further calls for independence from other regions. Because they already have autonomy, face no repression economically or otherwise, aren't on the back of any war etc. Because in the mess that is the world at the moment, the last thing we need is more division. Because polling suggests that actually, Catalunyans don't actually want independence. 

Who cares if Spain brakes up if people democratically decide to leave.

Does a vote to agree to a constitution mean it stays the same in perpetuity? Constitutions and laws change and evolve on all matter of subjects.

Forcing people to be part of a country they don’t want to be part of is nothing but colonialism. And while I agree that seems to be a lot of division in the world and we don’t need any more it’s easy to say that when your not actually affected by that particular struggle.

If most Catalans don’t want independence, then the Spanish have nothing to worry about by a referendum I’m which case it should go ahead.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #235 on: October 1, 2017, 11:01:31 pm »
There is no question .

Independence .

My Cataluyn friends are fucking ripped in two tonight.

There is no debate needed here.

Its the same as a people saying about us about why do we want Justice ?

Fuck you Franco .



Er, that's just a fucking ridiculous comment

Offline sms1986

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #236 on: October 1, 2017, 11:01:55 pm »
Not sure of the source, but this was posted on another forum which has a thread about the referendum.


Offline sms1986

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #237 on: October 1, 2017, 11:05:24 pm »
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/official-catalan-independence-thread.420844/ - apparently, Catalonia might make a unilateral declaration of independence sometime in the next 48 hours.

edit - the thread is in a subforum that requires registration there.
« Last Edit: October 1, 2017, 11:10:39 pm by sms1986 »

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #238 on: October 1, 2017, 11:08:09 pm »
Now that the results suggest people voted for independence, what would be the next step for Catalans to take?
It will be hard to expect Spanish government to approve a legal/official referandum there as the results will remain the same.

I think a lot will depend on outside pressure. The Spanish govt have acted dreadfully and potentially against EU Law regarding using military on their own people.

However if there is little outside pressure then I think they will dig their heels on no referendum.
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Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #239 on: October 1, 2017, 11:08:41 pm »
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/official-catalan-independence-thread.420844/ - apparently, Catalonia might make a unilateral declaration of independence sometime in the next 48 hours.
Can't view that thread without singing up