Author Topic: Catalan Independence  (Read 44870 times)

Offline Sarge

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #160 on: October 1, 2017, 04:25:52 pm »
Barca would have lost the game 0-3 if they hadn't played, I heard.

Correct, its a forfit law that 3-0 would be the score across all Leagues.
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #161 on: October 1, 2017, 04:27:39 pm »
The central government is behaving with a reckless level of stupidity and brutality. This will bring many, many over to the independence side and sour any relationship with the central government. Rajoy is fucked now.

PR fucking disaster for them, if thay let the votes go ahead it would not have made much of a difference really but now? Mad a balls of it.
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Offline GiorgosCarraGoonies

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #162 on: October 1, 2017, 04:31:15 pm »
Spanish police are acting like rabid animals today.

These ppl are peaceful. Brutally beaten.

https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/914492843368091648

 :wanker
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Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #163 on: October 1, 2017, 04:34:50 pm »
Sums up the day.


Offline west_london_red

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #164 on: October 1, 2017, 04:44:22 pm »
I haven't been following too closely but have International leaders actually said anything about this? The likes of Trump, May and Merkel should be piling the pressure on the Spanish Government.

I wonder if they would be so silent if this was taking place somewhere else outside of the EU?
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #165 on: October 1, 2017, 05:34:08 pm »
Do you believe a Madrid based government would ever willingly create a scenario whereby Catalonia or the Basque region for that matter could vote themselves out?

I sincerely doubt it. So having a legal basis to vote is an unlikely scenario for the Catalans. So they are attempting to take matters into their own hands by exercising their own vote for independence. There are parallels here to the options (albiet legal) available in Northern Ireland.
 
Btw, had Kosovo a legal right to be annexed from Serbia?

to be honest no i doubt that this madrid government would. But then, why should it? The constitution is relatively new and since it was agreed by over 90% of the country Catalunya has enjoyed large levels of autonomy, has had to suffer no repression, has been free to speak catalan and fly the flag. To basically take pride in their heritage whilst also being part of Spain. What is really left for them to fight for?

Recent polling suggests that if a vote did go ahead then actually the people of catalunya would likely vote to remain part of Spain. But Spain has a responsibility to an entire nation, why should they bow to a nationalist movement in Catalunya that doesnt even seem to represent even half of the region?

I am playing devils advocate slightly here. But i do think its far more nuanced than it will seem after today. Certainly they were horrible scenes that will win the government no sympathy. But the feeling from people ive spoken to here in Madrid, those whove lived here all their lives as well as some who've relocated here from Valencia, Bilbao, is that they are proud of how far Spain has come in the last 30 years, how they feel betrayed by some Catalunyans. There is this romantic notion of catalunya being some sort of socialist paradise longing to be free of a right wing, repressive spain. But its just not true. Indeed the government elected in catalunya is a right wing one. By its very nature its movement is a nationalist one. One that could pave the way to further splits to spain, and descend the country into chaos.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #166 on: October 1, 2017, 06:12:35 pm »
Left Barce today as it was crackers.

I stayed in a school last night with my Catalun mate and about 300 other protesters. Apparantly 700 schools had been squatted. A few Nazis bellends turned up last night and were shouting outside and it looked as it was getting nasty.  I left this morning as I had a feeling it was going weird.

Viva la Catalunya !!!
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Offline kesey

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #167 on: October 1, 2017, 06:14:06 pm »
I have not met one Catalunyan that doesnt want out either.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

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Offline kesey

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #168 on: October 1, 2017, 06:16:37 pm »
I'm going to be there when the referendum does/does not take place. I'll be sure to find polling stations to see what's happening.

The government closed the schools hence the protests in the schools last night.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #169 on: October 1, 2017, 06:47:41 pm »
I have not met one Catalunyan that doesnt want out either.
Why do they want out mate...

Interested in hearing the full picture...
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #170 on: October 1, 2017, 07:02:58 pm »
Why do they want out mate...

Interested in hearing the full picture...


Really. Take a while that mate. Probably your best bet is to go to Barcelona and ask them. Honestly.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #171 on: October 1, 2017, 07:06:58 pm »

Really. Take a while that mate. Probably your best bet is to go to Barcelona and ask them. Honestly.
Fair point... ;D. But it would be interesting to hear what the people on the ground are saying, you don’t always get the full picture from the news..
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #172 on: October 1, 2017, 07:16:26 pm »
Did the vote go ahead? If so when is the result expected?

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #173 on: October 1, 2017, 07:20:15 pm »
Fair point... ;D. But it would be interesting to hear what the people on the ground are saying, you don’t always get the full picture from the news..

It's really complex mate. I've been there loads and loads and loads of times and it always comes up when you're chatting to the locals.

Been to the celebrations a few times - ears are still ringing now! :)
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Trada

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #174 on: October 1, 2017, 07:53:15 pm »
The Catalan fire service at the front.

Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline Trada

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #175 on: October 1, 2017, 08:00:43 pm »
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #176 on: October 1, 2017, 08:03:26 pm »
The Catalan fire service at the front.


Agree or disagree with independence... but this is just fucked up...

Look at them, none have any indentifying numbers, totally anonymous..

There’s a video where one just starts kicking a woman peacefully sitting on the floor.. a silent protest..  it’s awful...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #177 on: October 1, 2017, 08:04:10 pm »
It's really complex mate. I've been there loads and loads and loads of times and it always comes up when you're chatting to the locals.

Been to the celebrations a few times - ears are still ringing now! :)
I’ve been a couple of times, to be honest I drank a bit much to remember anything about the locals (!)
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #178 on: October 1, 2017, 08:04:47 pm »
Agree or disagree with independence... but this is just fucked up...

Look at them, none have any indentifying numbers, totally anonymous..

There’s a video where one just starts kicking a woman peacefully sitting on the floor.. a silent protest..  it’s awful...

Yet to see any international condemnation so far though.

Offline Trada

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #179 on: October 1, 2017, 08:22:53 pm »
Sky News deleted this tweet.

Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

Miss you Tracy more and more every day xxx

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Offline Sarge

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #180 on: October 1, 2017, 08:45:30 pm »
The Catalan fire service at the front.



Was about to post thius Pic, incredible. News on it is that the firefighters are protecting voters going into Polling Stations.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #181 on: October 1, 2017, 08:48:44 pm »
Agree or disagree with independence... but this is just fucked up...

Look at them, none have any indentifying numbers, totally anonymous..

There’s a video where one just starts kicking a woman peacefully sitting on the floor.. a silent protest..  it’s awful...

Shocking.
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #182 on: October 1, 2017, 08:52:18 pm »
to be honest no i doubt that this madrid government would. But then, why should it? The constitution is relatively new and since it was agreed by over 90% of the country Catalunya has enjoyed large levels of autonomy, has had to suffer no repression, has been free to speak catalan and fly the flag. To basically take pride in their heritage whilst also being part of Spain. What is really left for them to fight for?

Recent polling suggests that if a vote did go ahead then actually the people of catalunya would likely vote to remain part of Spain. But Spain has a responsibility to an entire nation, why should they bow to a nationalist movement in Catalunya that doesnt even seem to represent even half of the region?

I am playing devils advocate slightly here. But i do think its far more nuanced than it will seem after today. Certainly they were horrible scenes that will win the government no sympathy. But the feeling from people ive spoken to here in Madrid, those whove lived here all their lives as well as some who've relocated here from Valencia, Bilbao, is that they are proud of how far Spain has come in the last 30 years, how they feel betrayed by some Catalunyans. There is this romantic notion of catalunya being some sort of socialist paradise longing to be free of a right wing, repressive spain. But its just not true. Indeed the government elected in catalunya is a right wing one. By its very nature its movement is a nationalist one. One that could pave the way to further splits to spain, and descend the country into chaos.
For as long as I've known, both the Basque Region and Catalonia has always harboured intentions to leave.

I don't know whether they should or should not be having these desires to leave, i simply don't know enough about their history. But countries have left illegally before, so it's not simply a matter of what's allowed or not allowed by the letter of the law. If todays event's show anything, it's the contempt that the Madrid based government has for its Catalonian citizens. Maybe today is a demonstration of something the locals have known for years?

Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #183 on: October 1, 2017, 08:53:29 pm »

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #184 on: October 1, 2017, 09:02:27 pm »
I have to say a feel just a little bit prouder of this country when you compare what is going on in Catalunya today to how the demand for a Scottish referendum was handled over here.
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #185 on: October 1, 2017, 09:09:28 pm »
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.
#CatalanReferendum
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #186 on: October 1, 2017, 09:10:31 pm »
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.
#CatalanReferendum

Don't think it can be called military force, even if it is disgusting.

Offline losCHUNK

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #187 on: October 1, 2017, 09:12:27 pm »
True for Wales.

Nope

Spanish government needs a word with itself though, I've seen the PM support the actions of the police.

Disgusting.

Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #188 on: October 1, 2017, 09:13:55 pm »
I have to say a feel just a little bit prouder of this country when you compare what is going on in Catalunya today to how the demand for a Scottish referendum was handled over here.
Without trying to sound condescending in anyway, Downing Street doesn't view Scotland the way the Madrid government views Catalunya, as Catalunya is an economic powerhouse that Spain cannot afford to lose.

Offline conman

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #189 on: October 1, 2017, 09:14:40 pm »
Don't think it can be called military force, even if it is disgusting.
I've seen today, that they list themselves as a military force on their own website.

Offline Sarge

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #190 on: October 1, 2017, 09:15:11 pm »
Y.N.W.A.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #191 on: October 1, 2017, 09:15:55 pm »
I've seen today, that they list themselves as a military force on their own website.

Really? Wasn't aware of that. Really can't see the EU doing anything about this though.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #192 on: October 1, 2017, 09:17:42 pm »
Really? Wasn't aware of that. Really can't see the EU doing anything about this though.

Statement from them tomorrow morning.
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #193 on: October 1, 2017, 09:26:26 pm »
I have to say a feel just a little bit prouder of this country when you compare what is going on in Catalunya today to how the demand for a Scottish referendum was handled over here.

The Tories did what they thought was politically expedient. They thought the referendum would be won easily (far easier than it was) and that it would make the issue go away for decades.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #194 on: October 1, 2017, 09:26:57 pm »
Some things never change.

Catalonia today & Catalonia 50 years ago under Franco



More than 800 people required "medical attention" in Catalonia clashes.

Bilbao is marching in solidarity with Catalunya


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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #195 on: October 1, 2017, 09:27:40 pm »
Nope

Catalonian separatists want to become a separate sovereign nation from Spain.
Wales and England aren't separate sovereign nations. Monaco and France are.
You can't compare Welsh clubs playing club football in England with the possibility of Barcelona playing in La Liga should Catalonia gain independence.
You can however compare Barca playing in La Liga with Monaco playing in France.

Hope this clears that issue up for you. There's more important things going on in Barcelona right now than the future of that shithouse club.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #196 on: October 1, 2017, 09:28:25 pm »
So will the EU do anything about it? Probably not.

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #197 on: October 1, 2017, 09:30:00 pm »
Guy Verhofstadt‏Verified account @GuyVerhofstadt  4h4 hours ago

It's high time for de-escalation. Only a negotiated solution is the way forward. Read my full statement on the #CatalanReferendum here



Bit mealy mouthed for me, what are the separatists supposed to do if it is impossible for them to get a legal referendum.
« Last Edit: October 1, 2017, 09:31:36 pm by elmo_swatloski »

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #198 on: October 1, 2017, 09:31:14 pm »
Who is he?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Catalan Independence
« Reply #199 on: October 1, 2017, 09:32:15 pm »
Who is he?

Guy Verhofstadt? Thought you would know him.... Belgian MEP and the European Parliaments chief Brexit negotiator.