Author Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire  (Read 138978 times)

Offline Fortneef

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #920 on: June 26, 2017, 12:36:46 pm »
I guess the advice is, stay in your flat if its a little fire and it will be put out, if its going to be a big fire that will block the escape route(s), get the hell out as soon as possible.

You can tell the difference by, er...



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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #921 on: June 26, 2017, 02:23:56 pm »
I guess the advice is, stay in your flat if its a little fire and it will be put out, if its going to be a big fire that will block the escape route(s), get the hell out as soon as possible.

You can tell the difference by, er...




No, the advice is: find out what the fire emergencies procedures are for your building, and follow them.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #922 on: June 26, 2017, 03:55:01 pm »
No, the advice is: find out what the fire emergencies procedures are for your building, and follow them.

Like many of the dead at Grenfell did.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #923 on: June 26, 2017, 04:10:48 pm »
Like many of the dead at Grenfell did.

They didn't know that the damn cladding was flammable though.  If it wasn't, as it should've been, then that would've been the right advice.

A fire shouldn't have engulfed a 20 odd story, solid concrete building, within half an hour.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #924 on: June 26, 2017, 06:10:11 pm »
They didn't know that the damn cladding was flammable though.  If it wasn't, as it should've been, then that would've been the right advice.

A fire shouldn't have engulfed a 20 odd story, solid concrete building, within half an hour.


People were phoning up and still being told to stay put even after the fire had taken hold.

I am just saying what I would do,others would take the advice and stay put.
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Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #925 on: June 26, 2017, 07:15:37 pm »
In different parts of the country, 60 blocks of flats have been investigated.  60 failures of fire regs.

100% failure rate so far.

With hundreds, ney thousands of blocks to check, it will be interesting who picks up this bill, when the dust has settled.

This will probably rumble on for years.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #926 on: June 26, 2017, 07:49:29 pm »
They didn't know that the damn cladding was flammable though.  If it wasn't, as it should've been, then that would've been the right advice.

A fire shouldn't have engulfed a 20 odd story, solid concrete building, within half an hour.


Herein lies the problem. There could be exceptions that haven't been considered in other blocks of flats. We learned about the cladding issue the hard way. Could be something else in my/your block of flats that they haven't considered next time. If my building catches fire and I can get out of there there's no way I'm going to heed the advice to stay put, no way Pedro. I'll grab my loved ones and be out of there quicker than Linford Christie on steriods.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #927 on: June 26, 2017, 09:19:51 pm »
In different parts of the country, 60 blocks of flats have been investigated.  60 failures of fire regs.

100% failure rate so far.

With hundreds, ney thousands of blocks to check, it will be interesting who picks up this bill, when the dust has settled.

This will probably rumble on for years.

Heard it on the News today, 26 Councils in total carried out investigations and all failed, I mean wtf?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #928 on: June 26, 2017, 09:27:18 pm »
Heard it on the News today, 26 Councils in total carried out investigations and all failed, I mean wtf?

It's a national scandal!


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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #929 on: June 26, 2017, 09:39:41 pm »
Following the Grenfell Tower, 60 high-rise buildings in 25 local authorities in England have failed fire safety tests so far. But no local authority or housing association tower blocks in Scotland have been found to use the same kind of cladding.

In Scotland, a change to building regulations in 2005 made it mandatory for builders to ensure that any external cladding "inhibited" fire spreading. The new regulations were introduced following a fatal fire in a Scottish tower block in 1999.....Read on
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Offline redmark

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #930 on: June 26, 2017, 10:28:31 pm »
75/75.
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« Reply #931 on: June 26, 2017, 10:33:25 pm »
Heard it on the News today, 26 Councils in total carried out investigations and all failed, I mean wtf?
As redmark just above points out, it's now been updated on the evening news.

Now being reported as 75 failures from 75.  Still 100% failure rate.

And they haven't even scratched the surface yet!



One big question though, and I've only heard it in passing once, in the past week, is that the buildings being discussed are all social housing, what about private flats and other private buildings?  Buildings like Hospitals, Universitie buildings etc. and a whole hose of other privately funded and built buildings.

It boggles the mind how many potential failures there could be.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #932 on: June 26, 2017, 10:42:51 pm »
As redmark just above points out, it's now been updated on the evening news.

Now being reported as 75 failures from 75.  Still 100% failure rate.

And they haven't even scratched the surface yet!



One big question though, and I've only heard it in passing once, in the past week, is that the buildings being discussed are all social housing, what about private flats and other private buildings?  Buildings like Hospitals, Universitie buildings etc. and a whole hose of other privately funded and built buildings.

It boggles the mind how many potential failures there could be.

The government have said they are going to roll out the checks to all public buildings, schools, hospitals etc.

Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #933 on: June 26, 2017, 10:44:12 pm »
It's gonna be one HUGE can of worms.  >:(

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #934 on: June 26, 2017, 10:46:31 pm »
Somethings going to have to give here imo. If the failure rate keeps up at 100% you are going to be left with hundreds of council owned blocks of flats with people turfed out on the street with nowhere to go. That's just council flats never mind private apartments etc...

The public are going to need to see a head roll for this asap or else i can see a lot of trouble on the streets.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #935 on: June 26, 2017, 10:47:49 pm »
Anyone see David Lammy on Newsnight just now? Wow. I've always liked the guy but he seemed a bit unhinged.
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Offline Big Red Richie

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« Reply #936 on: June 26, 2017, 10:48:54 pm »
Anyone see David Lammy on Newsnight just now? Wow. I've always liked the guy but he seemed a bit unhinged.
Elaborate?

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« Reply #937 on: June 26, 2017, 10:50:51 pm »
Anyone see David Lammy on Newsnight just now? Wow. I've always liked the guy but he seemed a bit unhinged.

Yep, just saw it!

He is a really passionate guy.

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« Reply #938 on: June 26, 2017, 10:53:15 pm »
He said there'd been a huge cover up about the number of dead. He implied it had been coordinated between government, local government and businesses in order to stem civil unrest. He didn't say that the police or fire services were in on the conspiracy, which I thought was interesting. He offered no evidence, only a lot of innuendo. He was shouting but sort of calmed down. Under some excellent questioning he began to back track a little bit.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #939 on: June 26, 2017, 10:53:42 pm »
Anyone see David Lammy on Newsnight just now? Wow. I've always liked the guy but he seemed a bit unhinged.
You mean the person who lost a good friend in the Grenfell fire and has since found out the cladding is being widely used?

I think he can be forgiven for being a bit "unhinged"

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« Reply #940 on: June 26, 2017, 10:56:25 pm »
You mean the person who lost a good friend in the Grenfell fire and has since found out the cladding is being widely used?

I think he can be forgiven for being a bit "unhinged"

Yes, that's the man. I forgive him. But I'm glad you agree he seemed unhinged.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #941 on: June 26, 2017, 11:02:25 pm »
He said he knows in one flat there was at least 40 people in it because of a party I guess there maybe a few parties going on because of Ramadan.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #942 on: June 26, 2017, 11:04:11 pm »
Yes, that's the man. I forgive him. But I'm glad you agree he seemed unhinged.
Except I didn't agree with you

Offline kopite77

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #943 on: June 26, 2017, 11:13:14 pm »
I wonder how many flats the Ł1.000.000.000 sweetener May has given the DUP to save hers and the Tories arses, that would've paid for to fix! >:(
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #944 on: June 26, 2017, 11:17:35 pm »
He said he knows in one flat there was at least 40 people in it because of a party I guess there maybe a few parties going on because of Ramadan.

Yes, he did say that, although I think he was reporting a "rumour", and therefore "he knows" might be doing him a bit of a disservice.

And yet when Emily Matlis offered him a possible explanation for why the number of dead might turn out to be be higher than 79 (i.e. residents subcontracting their tenancies) he bridled and implied there was something sinister about what she was saying.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #945 on: June 26, 2017, 11:22:00 pm »
Yes, he did say that, although I think he was reporting a "rumour", and therefore "he knows" might be doing him a bit of a disservice.

And yet when Emily Matlis offered him a possible explanation for why the number of dead might turn out to be be higher than 79 (i.e. residents subcontracting their tenancies) he bridled and implied there was something sinister about what she was saying.

He said this earlier today, and is now seemingly driving the wedge himself.

The community are not asking for an exact figure but it should be possible for the Govnt to come up with an estimation of how many people lived in Grenfell. Lack of information is feeding suspicion of a cover up & driving a wedge between community & Govnt

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/879359988598267904

It's not helpful fueling conspiracies, particularly in a position serving the public. I understand he's lost a friend, which is awful news, but he should know better than to do this.

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #946 on: June 26, 2017, 11:35:05 pm »
Lammy is an impressive politician in many ways. His reaction to the riots in Tottenham was excellent. It was largely on the back of that that I cast my vote for him being the Labour candidate for London mayor. But tonight's performance really was amazing.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #947 on: June 27, 2017, 07:49:26 am »
In different parts of the country, 60 blocks of flats have been investigated.  60 failures of fire regs.

100% failure rate so far.

With hundreds, ney thousands of blocks to check, it will be interesting who picks up this bill, when the dust has settled.

This will probably rumble on for years.

Could always ask the DUP to have a word with with their mate Treeza
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #948 on: June 27, 2017, 07:58:25 am »
In different parts of the country, 60 blocks of flats have been investigated.  60 failures of fire regs.

100% failure rate so far.

With hundreds, ney thousands of blocks to check, it will be interesting who picks up this bill, when the dust has settled.

This will probably rumble on for years.

Questions are being raised about how the test are being carried out. Potentially safe installations may be condemned because the complete installation isn't being tested.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #949 on: June 27, 2017, 08:08:01 am »
I thought last week May said they could test the cladding on a 100 towers a day odd that only 75 have been tested so far.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 08:11:29 am by Trada »
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #950 on: June 27, 2017, 08:08:22 am »
Questions are being raised about how the test are being carried out. Potentially safe installations may be condemned because the complete installation isn't being tested.

Which should mean the installation has to be retested because the first test was incompetent, which means even more expense.

Unbelievable.  Couldn't make this shit up.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #951 on: June 27, 2017, 08:59:20 am »
Questions are being raised about how the test are being carried out. Potentially safe installations may be condemned because the complete installation isn't being tested.
The irony being that many people involved in fire safety have called for safety critical elements to be considered as a whole rather than in isolation. Which already happens to an extent, where say for example an open atrium is acceptable on the proviso of increased fire safety provision and shorter travel distances but that raises questions about maintaining safety critical measures and how that is enforced.  It's not unknown to come across significant breeches of safety features as the original purpose is either forgotten or not appreciated over the life of a building.  If the inquiry has a wide remit there is an opportunity to look at a number of questions and find a logical and safe way forward
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #952 on: June 27, 2017, 09:53:57 am »
The irony being that many people involved in fire safety have called for safety critical elements to be considered as a whole rather than in isolation. Which already happens to an extent, where say for example an open atrium is acceptable on the proviso of increased fire safety provision and shorter travel distances but that raises questions about maintaining safety critical measures and how that is enforced.  It's not unknown to come across significant breeches of safety features as the original purpose is either forgotten or not appreciated over the life of a building.  If the inquiry has a wide remit there is an opportunity to look at a number of questions and find a logical and safe way forward

My own personal opinion is that the detailing of the column overcladding will be at the heart of why the fire spread so quickly. If you look at an early picture the fire is most visible on the column at the corner and spreading sideways from the column to the left:



(apologies for the source - it's a conspiracy site. When I find the original source I'll swap it out).

The detail on the planning drawings shows a larger cavity on the columns than the spandrels and of course the columns are continuous with no breaks for the windows:



And at the lower extremities of the fire the damage is greatest to the columns and appears to spread outward into the spandrels between the windows. It also suggests that the hot gases and fire travelled down the columns before spreading outwards:



And this graphic from the New York Times shows the principle:



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/world/europe/grenfell-tower-london-fire.html

There was fire stopping at floor level within the spandrel panels and the columns but the intensity of the fire and the updraft could have by-passed it on the columns. 



The horizontal fire stopping is visible a third of the way up from the window heads.

I could be wrong and this is all speculation at the moment but everything I've seen so far suggests the detailing could be as significant as the actual cladding.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:15:27 am by Alan_X »
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #953 on: June 27, 2017, 10:15:56 am »
the detailing of the column overcladding will be at the heart of why the fire spread so quickly.



That was pointed out on BBC News last week.
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« Reply #954 on: June 27, 2017, 10:17:14 am »
That was pointed out on BBC News last week.

Which programme? I must have missed it. Did they pick up on the columns?
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #955 on: June 27, 2017, 10:32:10 am »
Which programme? I must have missed it. Did they pick up on the columns?
Specifically the columns as I remember it - purely as speculation.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #956 on: June 27, 2017, 12:40:32 pm »
I'm no expert on building construction and fire safety but without knowing the detail that seems plausible that a chimney effect was created. The effect of air currents and winds on high rises is only beginning to become appreciated from a fire point of view. Two firefighters died in Shirley Towers in Southampton because the window gave in while the wind was strong causing a massive inrush of air/oxygen that literally caused a blowtorch effect that engulfed the flat instantaneously in intense fire, this caused the fire service to re-examine our methods and training. Pipework and services breaching fire stopping, fixings failing in fires, the chimney effect, materials considered in combination not just isolation, all need to be looked at.

The importance of proper maintenance of the means of escape. Stairwells that provide positive pressure in the event of fire, keeping the stairwell the most protected part of the building smoke free, sprinklers may have saved lives but all come at a cost and the question is going to be is that a reasonable cost against the human and financial cost when it goes wrong.

Since I started we are gaining a much greater understanding of fire behaviour, we understand the theory better and regularly re-create flashover conditions in firehouses and train entering compartments and using water spray to control the temperature right on the point of flashover so we understand the signs and symptoms in practice but at the same time that our understanding is improving and we know so much more about how fire reacts, we have a background of massive cuts in every aspect of firefighting, we have seen fire safety being deregulated, we've seen fire deaths, which have gone down for years, going back up. Money spent on having a decent fire service and effective fire safety isn't wasted in an advanced society its essential but this generation of politicians seem to have forgot the lessons of the past and have despite warnings continued to see fire safety as something that will be alright.

When people used to talk about money, I used to tell a story about one day where we only had 2 calls, which is quiet, but in one day we saved a fire in a brand new leisure center in a very deprived area, and a multi million pound factory employing 200 people which is still open today, 15 odd years later. In that day I justified my wages over my whole thirty year career but that's only if you look at the benefit to society as a whole rather than seeing things in isolation and not related. Fire can be devastating to peoples lives we can't carry on just winging it and hoping everything will be alright. We need regulations based on proper scientific understanding of how fire spreads in buildings and need to start taking these things far more seriously or it will go wrong again.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #957 on: June 27, 2017, 12:53:18 pm »
I'm no expert on building construction and fire safety but without knowing the detail that seems plausible that a chimney effect was created. The effect of air currents and winds on high rises is only beginning to become appreciated from a fire point of view. Two firefighters died in Shirley Towers in Southampton because the window gave in while the wind was strong causing a massive inrush of air/oxygen that literally caused a blowtorch effect that engulfed the flat instantaneously in intense fire, this caused the fire service to re-examine our methods and training. Pipework and services breaching fire stopping, fixings failing in fires, the chimney effect, materials considered in combination not just isolation, all need to be looked at.

The importance of proper maintenance of the means of escape. Stairwells that provide positive pressure in the event of fire, keeping the stairwell the most protected part of the building smoke free, sprinklers may have saved lives but all come at a cost and the question is going to be is that a reasonable cost against the human and financial cost when it goes wrong.

Since I started we are gaining a much greater understanding of fire behaviour, we understand the theory better and regularly re-create flashover conditions in firehouses and train entering compartments and using water spray to control the temperature right on the point of flashover so we understand the signs and symptoms in practice but at the same time that our understanding is improving and we know so much more about how fire reacts, we have a background of massive cuts in every aspect of firefighting, we have seen fire safety being deregulated, we've seen fire deaths, which have gone down for years, going back up. Money spent on having a decent fire service and effective fire safety isn't wasted in an advanced society its essential but this generation of politicians seem to have forgot the lessons of the past and have despite warnings continued to see fire safety as something that will be alright.

When people used to talk about money, I used to tell a story about one day where we only had 2 calls, which is quiet, but in one day we saved a fire in a brand new leisure center in a very deprived area, and a multi million pound factory employing 200 people which is still open today, 15 odd years later. In that day I justified my wages over my whole thirty year career but that's only if you look at the benefit to society as a whole rather than seeing things in isolation and not related. Fire can be devastating to peoples lives we can't carry on just winging it and hoping everything will be alright. We need regulations based on proper scientific understanding of how fire spreads in buildings and need to start taking these things far more seriously or it will go wrong again.

You lads and all our emergency services are the very backbone of any society that has the temerity - or in the case of this present Tory mob, the bloody bare-faced cheek! - to call itself civilised. Great personal commitment and absolute valour when that brown stuff hits the spinning thing and the balloon goes up. Thanks a million to you all Albie.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #958 on: June 27, 2017, 01:14:35 pm »
I'm no expert on building construction and fire safety but without knowing the detail that seems plausible that a chimney effect was created. The effect of air currents and winds on high rises is only beginning to become appreciated from a fire point of view. Two firefighters died in Shirley Towers in Southampton because the window gave in while the wind was strong causing a massive inrush of air/oxygen that literally caused a blowtorch effect that engulfed the flat instantaneously in intense fire, this caused the fire service to re-examine our methods and training. Pipework and services breaching fire stopping, fixings failing in fires, the chimney effect, materials considered in combination not just isolation, all need to be looked at.

The importance of proper maintenance of the means of escape. Stairwells that provide positive pressure in the event of fire, keeping the stairwell the most protected part of the building smoke free, sprinklers may have saved lives but all come at a cost and the question is going to be is that a reasonable cost against the human and financial cost when it goes wrong.

Since I started we are gaining a much greater understanding of fire behaviour, we understand the theory better and regularly re-create flashover conditions in firehouses and train entering compartments and using water spray to control the temperature right on the point of flashover so we understand the signs and symptoms in practice but at the same time that our understanding is improving and we know so much more about how fire reacts, we have a background of massive cuts in every aspect of firefighting, we have seen fire safety being deregulated, we've seen fire deaths, which have gone down for years, going back up. Money spent on having a decent fire service and effective fire safety isn't wasted in an advanced society its essential but this generation of politicians seem to have forgot the lessons of the past and have despite warnings continued to see fire safety as something that will be alright.

When people used to talk about money, I used to tell a story about one day where we only had 2 calls, which is quiet, but in one day we saved a fire in a brand new leisure center in a very deprived area, and a multi million pound factory employing 200 people which is still open today, 15 odd years later. In that day I justified my wages over my whole thirty year career but that's only if you look at the benefit to society as a whole rather than seeing things in isolation and not related. Fire can be devastating to peoples lives we can't carry on just winging it and hoping everything will be alright. We need regulations based on proper scientific understanding of how fire spreads in buildings and need to start taking these things far more seriously or it will go wrong again.

Agree with all of that Albie. In an ideal world at my end we should be have the information to design buildings that reduce the chances of fire to a minimum and the first priority should always be life safety.
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Re: Grenfell Tower Fire. Please no Party Political Point Scoring.
« Reply #959 on: June 27, 2017, 01:31:38 pm »
Idiot!
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