Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Am I missing something but surely if the flats had the wrong cladding it falls on the owner/management of the building to pay and fix for it not the leaseholders as they bought in good faith that it was all fine, otherwise they can just sue the surveyors for not spotting it?

It shouldn't fly and hopefully won't now it has been reported.The costing seems way out of whack as well.

And as for this

Several of the residents own only a fraction of their flats under a shared ownership scheme, but have told de Cordova that they have been informed they will be liable for 100% of the remedial costs.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

It shouldn't fly and hopefully won't now it has been reported.The costing seems way out of whack as well.

not about the costs of it, it could be a quid for all I care but this cost is down to them doing an insufficient job, I mean if I buy a brand new car and a few months in there’s a product recall they don’t charge you so I don’t see how this is any different

And as for this

will be interesting what the deeds say, I had an issue with the company who briefly managed the parking in my building who told me because I didn’t have a permit (which isn’t in the deeds for the space I own the lease on and they didn’t bother sending) they could fine me, cc’d the building management on it and threatened to sue them and a few weeks later their contract is ripped up, so like them probably chancing it

[WhereAngelsPlay]

 

Grenfell Tower: more costly fire-resistant cladding plan was dropped

Exclusive: Nonflammable panel system may have saved lives, expert says, and ended up cheaper


A costed proposal to fit Grenfell Tower with panels that did not burn was dropped amid pressure from the Conservative council to slash the cost of the refurbishment, the Guardian has been told.

A cladding company which fits nonflammable aluminium panels claimed it provided a £3.3m quote to fit its system to the 24-storey tower in west London at the request of Leadbitter, Kensington and Chelsea’s preferred contractor in 2013.

But a few months later the council decided Leadbitter wanted to spend too much on the refurbishment and put the contract out to tender to save £1.3m. It selected Rydon, which provided a lower price but fitted the building with combustible cladding which caught fire on 14 June 2017, killing 72 people in what lawyers for victims have called a “national atrocity”.

If the solid aluminium cladding had been chosen it would have almost certainly saved lives, fire safety experts said, and it could also have been cheaper. The council’s housing arm ended up agreeing to a budget which put the cost for the plastic-filled aluminium panels and synthetic insulation which burned so fiercely at £3.5m – £200,000 more than the quote for the noncombustible materials.

Peter Hillyard, the director of D+B Facades, said his company was asked to provide costs for solid aluminium sheets which do not spread flame, backed with mineral wool insulation which does not burn. He said the thought his company’s safer and cheaper system was not used sent “a shiver down my spine”.

Geoff Wilkinson, an independent fire safety expert, said that if D+B’s version was used it would have performed better in the fire.

“There would have been little or no fire spread, so the lives lost at Grenfell may have been prevented,” said Stephen Mackenzie, an independent fire safety consultant.

The emergence of the proposal will heighten scrutiny of the procurement decisions made by the Kensington and Chelsea Tenants Management Organisation (KCTMO), which managed the building, and the council, which owned it.

Scotland Yard detectives are investigating possible manslaughter and corporate manslaughter charges. They are also looking into “any failings of duty of care owed to victims of the fire”.

D+B’s system has passed the full-scale British Standard 8414 fire test. By contrast, Grenfell was clad in a combustible synthetic insulation, faced with aluminium composite panels that had a combustible polyethylene core. The system has since been shown to fail the fire test.

Researchers claim the panel system used for Grenfell had a calorific value equivalent to 12,000 litres of petrol, while the insulation foam added the equivalent of almost another 20,000 litres. The foam has also been shown to release cyanide gas when it burns and it is feared this may have contributed to the death toll.

There was sustained pressure from the council to cut costs on the project despite the authority being in “robust” financial health, according to accounts for 2014. It had £235m in usable reserves and had underspent its budget for services by £23m.

The council had originally only wanted to spend £6m on Grenfell, but later set the budget at £9.7m when it realised it also needed to replace the heating system. In July 2013, however, the council’s housing committee reported that Leadbitter, which was interested in the nonflammable cladding, was on course to spend £11.3m and so it put the contract out to tender and launched a cost-cutting programme which it called “value engineering”.

The following summer, with Rydon on board, the council’s tenants management organisation emailed the project team: “We need good costs for Cllr Feilding-Mellen [deputy leader in charge of housing].” At that point £300,000 was removed from the cladding budget and zinc panels were replaced with the aluminium composite material with the plastic core.

At least 300 other tall buildings in England are clad in similar systems to Grenfell and need to be reclad after they failed fire safety tests. The system D+B proposed for Grenfell is now being used to replace the dangerous failed cladding on several of those towers.

A leaked report prepared for detectives has already claimed that the insulation on Grenfell “provided a medium for fire to spread up, across and within sections of the facade”. The Building Research Establishment found the fire would not have spread beyond the fourth floor flat where a fridge freezer had malfunctioned if the tower had not been clad in the combustible materials.

“Leadbitter sent us quantities as directed by Studio E Architects,” Hillyard said. “Based on quantities alone our budget was £3.3m. We provided figures based on our own ‘A1 non-combustible’ cladding system and our high quality composite windows. All went quiet and the next time we heard anything was in August 2013 when the tender notice was issued.

“Kensington and Chelsea were inviting main contractors to express interest under a ‘design and build’ contract. This was the last we heard and received no further requests from Rydon, who won the contract for the work.”

Sir Martin Moore-Bick, the chair of the Grenfell Tower inquiry which opens in full on 4 June, has said he wants to find out “what decisions about the exterior of the building … were made, by whom and when”? He also wanted to know whether the cladding and insulation met building regulations and standards, who was responsible if they didn’t and “what factors or motives influenced the decisions”.

Bouygues, which now owns Leadbitter, declined to comment on the cost plan for noncombustible cladding, citing the police investigation and public inquiry”.

Rydon, the council and KCTMO also declined to comment for the same reasons.

Some of these bastards need to be doing time over this..

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Some of these bastards need to be doing time over this..

would say those responsible for other buildings with unsafe cladding who try to get the residents to pay for it get a lengthy jail sentence

[Redsnappa]

Fucking hell Celotex, what a greedy set of lying Corporate c*nts - I've fitted loads of their RS5000 

Grenfell Tower insulation 'never passed fire safety test'

Panorama tonight BBC 1 8pm

The insulation that burned out of control on Grenfell Tower had never passed the required safety test and should never have been on the building, a BBC investigation has discovered.
Panorama understands the manufacturer, Celotex, used extra fire retardant in the product that qualified for the safety certificate.
A more flammable version was then sold for public use, the programme believes.
Celotex said it is co-operating with the police investigation and inquiry.
The company said it could not comment further but wished to express its deepest sympathies to everyone who was and remains affected by the fire. But it has not denied any of Panorama's allegations.
Panorama also accused Celotex of mis-selling the insulation with misleading marketing.
The programme has been advised that the way Celotex tested and sold the insulation could amount to corporate manslaughter.

Hundreds of buildings

The RS5000 insulation, which was used in the refurbishment of Grenfell, gives off toxic fumes which contain cyanide when it burns. Panorama understands that almost all of the 72 people who died at Grenfell were killed by smoke.
Celotex's plastic foam insulation has been used on hundreds of other buildings around the country.
Fire safety expert Arnold Tarling said he was shocked by the revelation: "Well, words fail me. This is absolutely mind-blowing. This material is all over the place."

The change in formula was not the only problem with the fire safety test that the insulation passed.
The BS8414-2 test only showed RS5000 was safe to use on certain new build projects when it was combined with a specific fire-proof cladding panel.
But Celotex knowingly misled buyers about RS5000.
Its marketing suggested the insulation was suitable for use with other cladding panels and for tower block refurbishment projects like Grenfell. Neither was true.
The company was repeatedly warned that its marketing was misleading, but it carried on mis-selling the product anyway.
Panorama has discovered Celotex targeted the contractors who were refurbishing Grenfell and specifically offered its flammable insulation - even though the company knew it was going to be combined with combustible cladding panels.
Matt Wrack, general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union, said Panorama's allegations should be investigated: "If there are breaches of the law then those people need to be held to account."
'Co-operating fully'
Celotex said it wished to express its deepest sympathies to everyone who was and remains affected by the fire.
It said it was co-operating fully with all the inquiries into the Grenfell Tower fire, including the police investigation and the public inquiry.
"We believe that the right forum for considering and assessing the many, complex and inter-related issues which arise in relation to the fire - and which require consideration of the involvement of all relevant parties - is through these official investigations. We do not think it is appropriate to comment any further outside of or in advance of that process."
When Panorama told Celotex that its actions might amount to corporate manslaughter, the company said: "We fully recognise the seriousness of the Grenfell fire. It is for this reason that we believe the public inquiry and the police investigation are the right processes to consider the events leading up to the fire, and the night of the fire itself."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44200041

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Panorama is going to be a tough watch.

Dogs can have an extra long walk when it finishes because there's no way that my anger isn't going to rise.

[Red Beret]

Fucking hell Celotex, what a greedy set of lying Corporate c*nts - I've fitted loads of their RS5000 

Grenfell Tower insulation 'never passed fire safety test'

Panorama tonight BBC 1 8pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44200041

There should be a very special place in hell reserved for people like this.  But not before they're jailed for 30 years.

[TALBERT]

Watching panorama now

That twats wife who at the park when Richard Bilton was trying to ask questions

‘It’s a Saturday’

These people who are responsible should be locked up.

But ultimately this comes down to.

MONEY.  CLASS.     THE STRENGTHENING OF THE ELITE

[Fortneef]

There should be a very special place in hell reserved for people like this.  But not before they're jailed for 30 years.

Yes but... I suspect the regulations are such a mess that it would have been possible to - within the letter of the law - sell/buy/fit lethally flammable panels. 

[Red Beret]

Yes but... I suspect the regulations are such a mess that it would have been possible to - within the letter of the law - sell/buy/fit lethally flammable panels.

Well according to that article they changed the formula after they got the safety certificate and also deliberately mislead buyers on how it should be used.  That doesn't sound like a mess of regulations - that sounds like a company deliberately weaving a path through the regulations so they could sell a dodgy product.

If there's anything in their actions that is found to be within the law then God help us all, but the law will be changed and heads are still going to roll because they can't NOT roll after something like this.

[The Gulleysucker]

A rather long but fascinating article by Andrew O'Hagan here... https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower#group-i-the-fire-uPlNqctlTf

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-effigy-bonfire-burned-guy-fawkes-party-a8618661.html

Some really f•cked up people in this world. Met Police are investigating this.

[DelTrotter]

Sick fucks. Always even more fucked up when it's a group doing something, a discussion has obviously started up with one weirdo suggesting doing that then rather than put him off others get involved and encourage it. Demented c*nts.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Twats

Mocking cries of “help me” and “stay in your flat” are heard as the flames take hold.

Other onlookers say: “Jump out the window” and “All the little ninjas getting it”.

[So… Howard Philips]

Sick fucks. Always even more fucked up when it's a group doing something, a discussion has obviously started up with one weirdo suggesting doing that then rather than put him off others get involved and encourage it. Demented c*nts.

Why I am I not surprised?

We have members of our society who have diminishing capacity for compassion and an increased depravity.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-effigy-bonfire-burned-guy-fawkes-party-a8618661.html

Some really f•cked up people in this world. Met Police are investigating this.

what law did they break though, it’s pure wrong but not sure what law has been broken here?

[gazzalfc]

what law did they break though, it’s pure wrong but not sure what law has been broken here?

Outraging public decency. Probably wont go to court but enough to name and shame.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

what law did they break though, it’s pure wrong but not sure what law has been broken here?

None.

Would love to know wtf he meant with ''all the ninjas getting it"

[12C]

what law did they break though, it’s pure wrong but not sure what law has been broken here?

Putting it out on social media might be seen as encouraging hate  crime, seeing as they had brown skinned characters stuck to it and were flying the cross of St George, and were obviously racist

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

what law did they break though, it’s pure wrong but not sure what law has been broken here?

Exactly, if any prosecution happens here it sends a very dangerous precedent.

[killer-heels]

None.

Would love to know wtf he meant with ''all the ninjas getting it"

The muslim women.

Social media accounts should be verifiable. To sign up to one the government should have made available to them the names, addresses and contact details of that poster.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

The muslim women.

Social media accounts should be verifable. To sign up to one the government should have made available to them the names, addresses and contact details of that poster.

Well I guess that would be one way of stopping me wasting time on social media.

[JohnnoWhite]

Our country has lost its compasssion, its collective moral compass, its awareness of right and wrong in the eight short years of the most divisive and savage policies of these Tory bastards. No-mark, fucking brain-dead yobs flouring and egging a mentally disabled woman on a park bench, fireworks thrown at a blind lady and her guide dog walking, and pissing on the homeless as they try to sleep on the streets. WTF?  There was a time not that long back when the community itself would deal with these gets good style. They'd be drummed out of that community - not necessarily involving any violence - but sometimes a bit was used to emphasise the lack of welcome! Just the good old sending to Coventry 100%, backs turned whenever they were on the street, doors slammed whenever they passed by and NEVER any words spoken to them was the social "Not welcome here" code for shitheads on their street. These bonfire-night low-life bigotted fascist scum "celebrating" the agonies, the terror and the inhumanity that caused the deaths of 72 men, women and babies marks a new low water mark in our country. Were we in ANY way a decent and caring society, this alleged "Government" wouldn't simply be voted out of office tomorrow. They would be booted out, charged with crimes against the people, jailed and banned from EVER holding office again. Their policies - worse than even the Old Witch herself back in the 80's - have deliberately inflicted this on us and they must never be excused for their crimes. Enemies of the people indeed!

[Brissyred]

Our country has lost its compasssion, its collective moral compass, its awareness of right and wrong

I'm sure that happened after thatcher, it's one of the reasons I emigrated.

[KillieRed]

The muslim women.

Social media accounts should be verifiable. To sign up to one the government should have made available to them the names, addresses and contact details of that poster.

Perhaps we should all get a social ranking as proposed in China?

Imagine people had put an effigy of Windsor Castle on a bonfire after it went up on flames, the lunatic fringe would have been out defending a family that does very little for its money and had multiple state funded mega-homes.

Our country.

[Barneylfc∗]

They've handed themselves in according to the BBC. Wouldn't surprise me if they just get a slap on the wrist.

[Zeb]

They've been arrested.

The men have been arrested under section 4a of the Public Order Act 1986, which covers intentional "harassment, alarm or distress" caused via the use of "threatening, abusive or insulting" words or signs.

Offences committed on a private residence where a person "had no reason to believe" it would be "heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling" are protected from prosecution under the act.

BBC

This is where it's probably best to stick with the reporting as and when it's followed up. Contempt of court and all that fun stuff.

[AndyMuller]

Scumbags the lot of them.

[gazzalfc]

Yeah public order offence.

Probably the easiest comparison comes down to that dickhead that wore the offensive Hillsborough t-shirt a couple of years ago.

That did go to court and he got a pretty substantial fine. Same will happen here

[paulrazor]

I despair at this world sometimes, i really do

[rob1966]

I despair at this world sometimes, i really do

There will always have been people doing this kind of sick shit, it's just that these days, with WhatsApp and social media, the rest of us get to see their sick little worlds.

[Andy82lfc]

Sorry but am I the only one missing the absolute blinding irony of this entire story? I thought it was some kind of sick parody when I read it.

You knowgly fit material you know is dangerous, flammable and which you have misled people on that helps burn to death 72 people including families inside a tower block, yet nothing is done about it,well over a year later no arrests or charges even with all the evidence of wrong doing out there, just process.

You build a fake paper tower block with fake paper people, burn it to the ground, comments of disgust from the prime minister, national outrage and arrests the very next day.

People will make excuses for how the system works and maybe yes I am being too simplistic and I’m just a bit blinded by anger but that is just so far from right to me.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

This

[JohnnoWhite]

I'm sure that happened after thatcher, it's one of the reasons I emigrated.

I believed it had too mate. But this mob are even worse trust me. Beyond the bottom of the barrel-worse.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I believed it had too mate. But this mob are even worse trust me. Beyond the bottom of the barrel-worse.

With you there Johnno, been saying it for years now, this lot are a lot worse than the Thatcher government.

[Fortneef]

A rather long but fascinating article by Andrew O'Hagan here... https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower#group-i-the-fire-uPlNqctlTf

Thanks for that, quite sobering

[JohnnoWhite]

With you there Johnno, been saying it for years now, this lot are a lot worse than the Thatcher government.

They took their cue from that Old Witch though and tried their hand - and bloodywell got it again on lies, bullshit and outright defamation. I sometimes despair of our people's gullibility when it comes to the ballot box. Where's the loyalty and where's their pride gone? The Tories the worker's best friends?? Have our people collectively lost their innate political nouse or their memories??

[Alan_X]

Sorry but am I the only one missing the absolute blinding irony of this entire story? I thought it was some kind of sick parody when I read it.

You knowgly fit material you know is dangerous, flammable and which you have misled people on that helps burn to death 72 people including families inside a tower block, yet nothing is done about it,well over a year later no arrests or charges even with all the evidence of wrong doing out there, just process.

You build a fake paper tower block with fake paper people, burn it to the ground, comments of disgust from the prime minister, national outrage and arrests the very next day.

People will make excuses for how the system works and maybe yes I am being too simplistic and I’m just a bit blinded by anger but that is just so far from right to me.

There is an inquiry into what happened and it's essential that the forensic examination and conclusions are watertight before any charges are brought.

It's easy to say 'you knowingly fit' material but who exactly are you are referring to? The specifier? The project manager? Building Control? The main contractor? The subcontractor? The supplier? The individual workmen? Or what about the Agrement board or the people who wrote the last version of the Approved Documents to the Building Regulations? Is there a code of practice that covers these materials that might have suggested they were safe?

Construction legal cases are notoriously difficult because construction is a complex business.

5 muppets recording themselves setting fire to an effigy of Grenfell and handing themselves into police is pretty straightforward.

[Andy82lfc]

There is an inquiry into what happened and it's essential that the forensic examination and conclusions are watertight before any charges are brought.

It's easy to say 'you knowingly fit' material but who exactly are you are referring to? The specifier? The project manager? Building Control? The main contractor? The subcontractor? The supplier? The individual workmen? Or what about the Agrement board or the people who wrote the last version of the Approved Documents to the Building Regulations? Is there a code of practice that covers these materials that might have suggested they were safe?

Construction legal cases are notoriously difficult because construction is a complex business.

5 muppets recording themselves setting fire to an effigy of Grenfell and handing themselves into police is pretty straightforward.

The person who agreed that they would use this material and knowingly gave instruction to have it fitted should of course be culpable.

As I already said maybe I am being far too simplistic but it just does not seem fair these people are still walking around. Examination and conclusions in 16 months should at least be enough time to bring charges or arrests. Just feels a little bit inevitable where this may all go in the end.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Sorry but am I the only one missing the absolute blinding irony of this entire story? I thought it was some kind of sick parody when I read it.

You knowgly fit material you know is dangerous, flammable and which you have misled people on that helps burn to death 72 people including families inside a tower block, yet nothing is done about it,well over a year later no arrests or charges even with all the evidence of wrong doing out there, just process.

You build a fake paper tower block with fake paper people, burn it to the ground, comments of disgust from the prime minister, national outrage and arrests the very next day.

People will make excuses for how the system works and maybe yes I am being too simplistic and I’m just a bit blinded by anger but that is just so far from right to me.

People will be charged for corporate manslaughter imo,said it the day after the fire and all we have heard and learnt since only makes it more likely.