Author Topic: 2017 Formula 1 Thread  (Read 211612 times)

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1800 on: June 27, 2017, 08:54:35 am »
Exactly. He's always been in a competitive car. He also has never been at fault for anything and moans a lot. He is uber talented but he's a bit of a prick and he's not had to work for it (in F1) the way many others have
That's like moaning about Gerrard always being at a big club and never having to work for it, that's what being super talented does for you.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1801 on: June 27, 2017, 08:55:54 am »
Exactly. He's always been in a competitive car. He also has never been at fault for anything and moans a lot. He is uber talented but he's a bit of a prick and he's not had to work for it (in F1) the way many others have

Don't agree with that at all mate. I know you said in F1, but he's been racing full time since he was 16 and hasn't had a break. To say he hasn't worked as hard as others just because he's had better cars isn't really true. He's had better cars because he's a better driver, and has proven that at every level he's raced at. Its not like he walked into McLaren and looked out of place, he upstaged the best driver on the grid in his first season.

If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Something Else

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1802 on: June 27, 2017, 09:29:51 am »
My point is that's what many hold against him. Never had to do it in a Minardi or a Toleman. No one is questioning his talent.

He's a spoilt brat and acts like it often which fuels people's feeling that he's never had it hard in f1.

His team make the smallest errro and he's up in arms, compare that to alonso winning titles in a car that wasn't the quickest and now dealing with a dog of a car.

Hamilton did great in his first year. The development of the car and everything was for him. It was no accident he was there at that time. I'd love to have seen him fighting in a lesser car for a few years. Seen what he is really made of

Offline west_london_red

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1803 on: June 27, 2017, 09:36:55 am »
Don't agree with that at all mate. I know you said in F1, but he's been racing full time since he was 16 and hasn't had a break. To say he hasn't worked as hard as others just because he's had better cars isn't really true. He's had better cars because he's a better driver, and has proven that at every level he's raced at. Its not like he walked into McLaren and looked out of place, he upstaged the best driver on the grid in his first season.


The point which was originally made was that Hamilton had won at least one race every season, which is a bit unfair on the drivers who didn't start their careers in competitive cars. Secondly, while Hamilton has won a race every season, so has whoever was his team mate at the time I believe, which suggests that his cars have always been pretty decent, he hasn't had to carry a pig of a car to the top of the grid like some drivers have.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1804 on: June 27, 2017, 09:37:26 am »
His team make the smallest errro and he's up in arms, compare that to alonso winning titles in a car that wasn't the quickest and now dealing with a dog of a car.
That's not true, and Alonso is not exactly Mr Professional over the radio or during interviews when asked about this McClaren.

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Offline Something Else

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1805 on: June 27, 2017, 09:40:28 am »
That's not true, and Alonso is not exactly Mr Professional over the radio or during interviews when asked about this McClaren.


facts would suggest it true. It would be far harder for you to find the evidence to prove me wrong than I just do a quick google to find examples to back up my case

Also so isn't, but he's not moaning about something simple is he. Plus he wasn't acting like a Hitchcock when he was dragging the Benetton to titles either.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1806 on: June 27, 2017, 10:23:24 am »
facts would suggest it true. It would be far harder for you to find the evidence to prove me wrong than I just do a quick google to find examples to back up my case
Didn't hear him complain when he lost the race due to the headrest coming off at the weekend.
Also so isn't, but he's not moaning about something simple is he. Plus he wasn't acting like a Hitchcock when he was dragging the Benetton to titles either.
So it's OK for Alonso to whine as long as it's for something you agree with, sounds fair. He moaned plenty when getting outperformed by a rookie at McLaren too.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 10:26:07 am by Funky_Gibbons »
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Offline Something Else

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1807 on: June 27, 2017, 10:27:13 am »
So it's OK for Alonso to whine as long as it's for something you agree with, sounds fair. He moaned plenty when getting outperformed by a rookie at McLaren too.

Well if you spin it like that then sound.

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Offline CornerFlag

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1808 on: June 27, 2017, 10:39:42 am »
Well, just caught up with this and Jesus H. Christ, fanboys are out in force with their bias!  I can't really say I have a dog in the fight with this one, I tend to lean towards the underdog all the time (Manor, Sauber, Force India...) but the way Vettel is being defended here is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.  I like Seb and think him, Alonso and Hamilton are the three best drivers on the grid but what he did was just a shambles and, for me, I'd have watched him get black-flagged and found it to be a reasonable punishment.

With the punishment he received though, a 10-second stop-go isn't enough for doing something like he did though, maybe there's other punishments available between being black-flagged and that which would be more apt, like 1% being added to your race time or something like that.  It'd make them push like crazy and likely keep the car out rather than retire through "issues" so they can change components for the next race.
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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1809 on: June 27, 2017, 10:44:30 am »
I only deal in facts and don't tend to take judgements about them or ponder hypotheticals, so I looked it up (2 minutes on wikipedia while having a shit. You're welcome.

McLaren had a 2009 car that was largely shite. Hamilton managed 5 podiums including 2 wins, kovalainen in the other car managed a single 4th place and was only in the points 7 times.

Offline classycarra

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1810 on: June 27, 2017, 11:09:59 am »
Best race i've seen this season yesterday, still don't know how Bottas clinched 2nd.

Having the best car, and incompetently taking out one of your two main rivals (fortunately without damaging himself) played a big role. As did the safety car unduly helping him out.

Issues with Massa and Verstappen's car also helped, as did Force India's drivers making a simultaneous mistake and taking each other out.

Of course, there was also some good driving in there but it was hardly as if luck was against him.

Offline kaliberbeats

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1811 on: June 27, 2017, 11:27:07 am »
Arguing with Hamilton haters is as pointless as arguing with Trump supporters. It's just not worth the effort. There's no debate, just hate.
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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1812 on: June 27, 2017, 01:01:45 pm »
Brundle

Another good reason to get rid of so many aero pieces hanging off the cars which cost a fortune, weigh too much, spoil so many races, prevent cars from following closely and then clutter the track.

Offline Qston

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1813 on: June 27, 2017, 01:08:34 pm »
Well, just caught up with this and Jesus H. Christ, fanboys are out in force with their bias!  I can't really say I have a dog in the fight with this one, I tend to lean towards the underdog all the time (Manor, Sauber, Force India...) but the way Vettel is being defended here is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.  I like Seb and think him, Alonso and Hamilton are the three best drivers on the grid but what he did was just a shambles and, for me, I'd have watched him get black-flagged and found it to be a reasonable punishment.

With the punishment he received though, a 10-second stop-go isn't enough for doing something like he did though, maybe there's other punishments available between being black-flagged and that which would be more apt, like 1% being added to your race time or something like that.  It'd make them push like crazy and likely keep the car out rather than retire through "issues" so they can change components for the next race.

Completely agree. The penalty clear didn`t fit the crime. As an elite driver, or that matter any driver, it is simply unacceptable to do that. It is deliberate, dangerous and the penalty imposed sends out completely the wrong message to the rest of the drivers and the wider world. It is cut and dry.

Whether Hamilton break tested him or not (apparently the data showed that he didn`t, he merely didn`t speed up) is irrelevant. Vettel should have had, as a minimum, his race points voided and perhaps even a full race ban. The next time someone has the opportunity to do something like this and it benefits them then they may do the same thing and take the chance it ends both drivers race. For example, going into the last race of the season and either Vettel or Hamilton have the lead in the championship. There is a safety care and a similar situation arises then the car behind can do the same thing again and expect nothing more than the 10 second stop penalty but at the same time they have potentially damaged the others car. Nonsense.
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Offline peterstone

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1814 on: June 27, 2017, 01:24:21 pm »
His team make the smallest errro and he's up in arms,
Hamilton didn't moan at all on Sunday when his headrest coming off cost him a win on Sunday


In fact he was very gracious about his team afterwards

Offline Darren G

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1815 on: June 27, 2017, 01:47:30 pm »
facts would suggest it true. It would be far harder for you to find the evidence to prove me wrong than I just do a quick google to find examples to back up my case

Also so isn't, but he's not moaning about something simple is he. Plus he wasn't acting like a Hitchcock when he was dragging the Benetton to titles either.

 "dragging the Benetton to titles"?   You're kidding, right?  Firstly it was Renault Works team, not Benetton and secondly, all things considered Alonso had the best car on the grid for both his championships.  In 2005 the Ferraris were on inferior tyres to the Michelins that the Renault were using and the Mclaren was less reliable, possibly costing Kimi the championship.  In 2006 Alonso had an advantage for a large part of the season  through Renaults mass dampening system which was banned two-thirds of the way through the season.  After that Ferrari hauled them in but it was too late by that point.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1816 on: June 27, 2017, 01:56:35 pm »
I think all drivers in f1 work hard, course some get a way in through massive sponsorship. I'm not Hamilton's biggest fan in terms of his character but he's been supremely talented since a kid, he's work hard and had the right breaks, he had ron dennis behind him since He was young also and by all accounts it wasn't easy on his dad and he had to make a alot of sacrifices.

Anyhow I'm as guilty as most when it comes to "put him in a shit car and let's see" but the reason there in the best cars is because they are more talented. Obviously you have cases like McLaren now, Brawn, Hill with Arrows but generally speaking the better drivers end up at the better teams like most team sports.

Offline Darren G

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1817 on: June 27, 2017, 02:06:12 pm »
I only deal in facts and don't tend to take judgements about them or ponder hypotheticals, so I looked it up (2 minutes on wikipedia while having a shit. You're welcome.

McLaren had a 2009 car that was largely shite. Hamilton managed 5 podiums including 2 wins, kovalainen in the other car managed a single 4th place and was only in the points 7 times.

  The Mclaren was the third best car on the grid in 2009.  Kovalainen was simply a very poor driver,  so "largely shite" is a big exaggeration in my opinion.  Hamilton should have scored more points than he did, but crashed out on a number of occasions, some of which were his fault, some not. 

Offline kaliberbeats

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1818 on: June 27, 2017, 02:11:53 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4-24

In testing, the MP4-24 was proven slower than its rivals due to aerodynamic problems, with Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen repeatedly at the bottom of the timesheets. The car came under much scrutiny from team members and other critics alike. Martin Whitmarsh, McLaren team principal, said the team "had not done a good enough job". He also went on to say "We have an underdeveloped car, we do not have sufficient aerodynamic downforce and we would like to focus on rectifying that as quickly as we can."

former team owner turned commentator Eddie Jordan had proclaimed it as "possibly the worst car McLaren have ever designed"
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Offline Titi Camara

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1819 on: June 27, 2017, 02:27:19 pm »
After the handbags at the weekend it would've been great to keep the fires smouldering and possibly even stoke them with a GP this weekend.
Appreciate the logistics in moving between tracks must be a fucking nightmare but as a fan of the sport I just want to see racing so I didn't give a fuck about their problems. Racing every weekend of the season you bunch of billionaire/millionaire fuck munchers!

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1820 on: June 27, 2017, 02:32:56 pm »
After the handbags at the weekend it would've been great to keep the fires smouldering and possibly even stoke them with a GP this weekend.
Appreciate the logistics in moving between tracks must be a fucking nightmare but as a fan of the sport I just want to see racing so I didn't give a fuck about their problems. Racing every weekend of the season you bunch of billionaire/millionaire fuck munchers!

the people who are most inconvenienced by the travel are the ones who aren't the highly paid ones. they're the ones who work long hours, travel economy and see fuck all of the countries that they travel to except the track, their hotel and the airport.

Offline peterstone

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1821 on: June 27, 2017, 02:39:03 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40412819

I'm no expert on Formula 1 but I presume the piece below means that Hamilton didn't brake-test Vettel, so those on this forum on Sunday saying he did were very wrong?



 'Following the crash, Vettel claimed he responded as he did because Hamilton had 'brake-tested' him - deliberately slowed down to cause him trouble.

Stewards examined data from Hamilton's car and concluded he had done nothing wrong - he had merely not accelerated out of the corner as he prepared the restart, as is his right.'

Offline Something Else

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1822 on: June 27, 2017, 02:48:12 pm »
After the handbags at the weekend it would've been great to keep the fires smouldering and possibly even stoke them with a GP this weekend.
Appreciate the logistics in moving between tracks must be a fucking nightmare but as a fan of the sport I just want to see racing so I didn't give a fuck about their problems. Racing every weekend of the season you bunch of billionaire/millionaire fuck munchers!

They should have just sent them back out again to have a second race. Even if just the two of them

Offline west_london_red

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1823 on: June 27, 2017, 02:56:44 pm »
I only deal in facts and don't tend to take judgements about them or ponder hypotheticals, so I looked it up (2 minutes on wikipedia while having a shit. You're welcome.

McLaren had a 2009 car that was largely shite. Hamilton managed 5 podiums including 2 wins, kovalainen in the other car managed a single 4th place and was only in the points 7 times.

Heres another fact, in the 3 years Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton spent racing together they were pretty evenly matched and Button outscored him slightly over the 3 seasons - I haven't ever heard anyone compare Button to Senna though.
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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1824 on: June 27, 2017, 03:01:07 pm »
Heres another fact, in the 3 years Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton spent racing together they were pretty evenly matched and Button outscored him slightly over the 3 seasons - I haven't ever heard anyone compare Button to Senna though.

I've never done that so you're aiming that at the wrong person mate.

and to the person below, Hamilton's 'only' got 3.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:02:47 pm by voodoo ray »

Offline kaliberbeats

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1825 on: June 27, 2017, 03:01:36 pm »
because Button has 1 world championship and Hamiton has 4. Button had 8 pole positions, Hamilton had 66, only 2 off the record.
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Offline Titi Camara

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1826 on: June 27, 2017, 03:08:16 pm »
They should have just sent them back out again to have a second race. Even if just the two of them
Belting idea.

As an aside I genuinely think they should do the same as the touring cars. Two shorter races rather than one, qualify for the first, second is a reverse order race of the finishing positions in race one (first to tenth only). Would be crackers that and drivers would naturally push us away from circuits where the over-taking opportunities are shite. Obviously the first race would have more points allocated than the "sprint race" that follows, possibly half.

Offline Titi Camara

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1827 on: June 27, 2017, 03:13:10 pm »
Hamilton is a crazy good driver, possibly one of the best. Trying to ascertain, with any certainty, a ranking of the best/worst/medicore of all time is absolute folly. There are far too many variables at play. So ultimately it comes down to personal perceptions or opinions as they're largely known. We all have a right to them on this site (unless they're shite or offensive), just because someone doesn't share yours doesn't mean they're wrong, and obviously vice-versa.

Have a snack, have a wank, watch some TV, take the dog for a walk or debate it till the cows come home, just make sure we're all being civil.

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1828 on: June 27, 2017, 03:13:33 pm »
Belting idea.

As an aside I genuinely think they should do the same as the touring cars. Two shorter races rather than one, qualify for the first, second is a reverse order race of the finishing positions in race one (first to tenth only). Would be crackers that and drivers would naturally push us away from circuits where the over-taking opportunities are shite. Obviously the first race would have more points allocated than the "sprint race" that follows, possibly half.
can see something like this happening with the new ownership. F1 is like test cricket. Thrilling in parts, with the odd race that is thrilling throughout however I do think they will look to liven it up. Unless they can balance out the performance across more cars I think they will have to go with more stuff like you mention to freshen it up.

I'd give them red tortoise shells and banana skins

Offline west_london_red

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1829 on: June 27, 2017, 03:27:57 pm »
because Button has 1 world championship and Hamiton has 4. Button had 8 pole positions, Hamilton had 66, only 2 off the record.

And Vettel has 4 world championships, would you put him up as one of the greats? I certainly wouldn't.
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Offline kaliberbeats

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1830 on: June 27, 2017, 03:34:52 pm »
No as I stated only a few posts up. For me he'll be remembered as one of the very good drivers but not one of the greats due to his anger issues.
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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1831 on: June 27, 2017, 03:36:53 pm »
can see something like this happening with the new ownership. F1 is like test cricket. Thrilling in parts, with the odd race that is thrilling throughout however I do think they will look to liven it up. Unless they can balance out the performance across more cars I think they will have to go with more stuff like you mention to freshen it up.

I'd give them red tortoise shells and banana skins
Pretty good analogy that. There are basically two or three good phases of a race, as a spectacle. The start, the pit-stops and potentially the finish (if there's been an overlap in strategies), which leaves about 40 laps where fuck all happens.

The constant fucking about of regulations does fuck all for the viewer/fan, it may or may not even things out behind closed doors but I don't know nor do I give a fuck about that. They need to make some real changes, make it faster, make it more even (kit wise) and mix it the fuck up a bit.

Probably all be better off watching carting, just not many "names" or much in the way of glamour ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline El Lobo

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1832 on: June 27, 2017, 03:48:00 pm »
And Vettel has 4 world championships, would you put him up as one of the greats? I certainly wouldn't.

Yeah course he is.

Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel all are.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1833 on: June 27, 2017, 03:59:00 pm »
Yeah course he is.

Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel all are.

Vettel for me needs to win another world championship, if hes does then I'd put him up there. Right now its too easy to say he won because of the car he was driving although overall my opinion of his ability has gone up since he joined Ferrari.

Probably same with Hamilton, win a title either at Mercedes or elsewhere when he doesn't have the best car and he goes from good to great for me.

Alonso is in my opinion is the best driver of the current crop, he took a pretty shit Ferrari car within a whisker on winning the championship on a couple of occasions in a Schumacher-esq fashion but going so long without a title and his idiotic decision to join McLaren don't help him.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1834 on: June 27, 2017, 04:02:33 pm »
No as I stated only a few posts up. For me he'll be remembered as one of the very good drivers but not one of the greats due to his anger issues.

Anger issues? That would pretty much discount most of the greats there has ever been!
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Offline classycarra

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1835 on: June 27, 2017, 04:08:58 pm »
Anger issues? That would pretty much discount most of the greats there has ever been!

I can't remember many anger issues with Vettel, aside from going crazy about Charlie Whiting while still in the car and ramming Hamilton

Offline Darren G

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1836 on: June 27, 2017, 04:46:13 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4-24

In testing, the MP4-24 was proven slower than its rivals due to aerodynamic problems, with Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen repeatedly at the bottom of the timesheets. The car came under much scrutiny from team members and other critics alike. Martin Whitmarsh, McLaren team principal, said the team "had not done a good enough job". He also went on to say "We have an underdeveloped car, we do not have sufficient aerodynamic downforce and we would like to focus on rectifying that as quickly as we can."

former team owner turned commentator Eddie Jordan had proclaimed it as "possibly the worst car McLaren have ever designed"


  I'm aware that Mclaren had trouble for a portion of the season as they were caught flat-footed by the regulation changes.  The point though is that the 5 podiums and 2 wins that were mentioned were not achieved by Lewis in a "largely shite" car. In  the latter stages of the season - the point that Lewis got those podiums and wins - the car was one of the quickest on the grid, perhaps the quickest at times. It wasn't some dog that Lewis was 'out-driving'. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 05:00:01 pm by Darren G »

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1837 on: June 27, 2017, 04:46:48 pm »
Btw all the haters bollocks is funny especially when it comes from those who suck the arse of those they fear others are hating. Have we really evolved to become binary fucks who can either love or hate.  From Hamilton to Corbyn to Klopp it seems that many think it's not possible to question them, have any doubts or concerns. If you do you are a hater.

What happened to the critical thinking. The ability to weigh up factors and form a multi faceted opinion.

Oh and well done to those who were certain from that first clip that Hamilton didn't break test. Your skills of perception are clearly wasted. Your not lovers but the rest of us are definitely haters

For what it's worth I think it was brilliant what happened. I thought at the time Hamilton just eased on the accelerator likely less than previous laps as a spot of gamesmanship and Vettel lost his rag. Now I'm a big Vettel fan but I'm not thinking it wasn't his fault. It was brilliant though and what the sport needs.

Offline Beav

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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1838 on: June 28, 2017, 08:56:36 am »
I find all this fascinating, mainly the discussions over who will go down as a great of the sport, comparing records etc, but most specifically the "hasn't won a title without the best/one of the best cars on the grid" talk.

I may be wrong here, and feel free to correct me, but the last person who to my mind won a title with a car that wasn't the best or very close second best car on the grid, was probably Schumacher in 1995? And even then the Benneton was 2nd on number of poles in that season, so it wasn't a mid-table car that he somehow won with, he was just a brilliant racer in a very good, but not the outright fastest car. I just think its a bit mad, Mika Hakkinen is a legend of the sport, his '98 title car claimed all but 4 poles, his '99 title all but 5 (poor Coulthard didnt score one, Mika had all eleven!), so is his legacy dulled because he won both his titles in a car that was right at the front of the field? Not in my opinion. I think its largely impossible in the modern era, with the reliability and aero precision of the cars now, for a car not quickest, or close second quickest, to win a title. Put Senna in a Force India and he might luck out and win a race every other season, finish on the odd podium, but as great as he was, hes not dragging it to a title because the cars are so refined.

Looking at Hamilton and Vettel (and Alonso if you like, both titles were in cars fastest or very close 2nd), I think both will go down as the best since those Schumacher/Hakkinen days, and by the end of this season, Vettel will either match Fangio, or they'll both have 4 world titles, an incredible achievement. Both have had big battles for those titles, both have switched teams and won races, Hamilton will likely break Schumachers record and have the most pole positions in history. Like them or not, they will both go down as titans of their era, and will likely be brought up from time to time, after all is said and done, as being among the top 10 or so drivers ever to race in F1.

On Hamilton not having to grind in a lower car before the McLaren, I actually find this a strange thing to throw at him. In my opinion, having to come straight into the sport, in a title challenging car, alongside the reigning double world champion who dethroned the Micheal Schumacher is a far, far bigger challenge than learning your craft in a crap backmarker car. Him then going on to finish ahead of said double world champion, in his rookie year, is all the proof you ever needed that putting him there was justified. All he would've done in a lower car, is what Verstappen and Vettel did, look a level above anyone else, like a generational talent, and get fast tracked up anyway. He might have scored a rare win, he might not, it doesn't matter, the guy came in and promptly overtook Alonso into turn one at his first ever race.

Quick bit on Hamilton v Button at McLaren, the total points haul is a story of 2012's awful reliability for McLaren, and Hamilton having a very poor last half of 2011. His record in qualifying is 44-14 to Hamilton, in races its 27-20 Hamilton, and if you dialled out mechanical issues for both drivers, Hamilton would've outscored him in points as well (in 2012 alone he lost 3 wins from this). Been a while since I saw a breakdown of the calculated total of points lost to mechanical issues in 2012, but I think Hamilton lost something mental like 140 points, to Buttons 19. I dont mean this to slight Button, who I think was a fine driver, but there's a very good reason why he isnt brought up along the names of Prost and Senna, and Hamilton sometimes is.
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Re: 2017 Formula 1 Thread
« Reply #1839 on: June 28, 2017, 09:27:25 am »
Spot on that Beav