Poll

How do we think the UK Will do - Assuming Brexit happens (Hard or Soft..)

Things will be brilliant from the word go and will get better every week!
Things will start off a bit dodgy, but over time things gradually improve and get better
Things will start off dodgy and remain that way for the forseeable future
Things will start off dodgy and then decline slightly with things getting a bit worse
Complete clusterfuck from start to finish

Author Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)  (Read 866178 times)

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6000 on: August 23, 2017, 02:57:45 pm »
The UK still holding their stance that the ECJ shouldn't be allowed to oversee EU citizens in the UK's rights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41012265

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6001 on: August 23, 2017, 03:20:13 pm »
The UK still holding their stance that the ECJ shouldn't be allowed to oversee EU citizens in the UK's rights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41012265

Makes sense because it just complicates everything and results in arguments in terms of legal supremacy.

What doesn't make sense (and why the EU position currently is correct) is why the fuck are those citizens not given the same rights as British nationals?


Offline Currywurst

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6002 on: August 23, 2017, 03:51:28 pm »
Makes sense because it just complicates everything and results in arguments in terms of legal supremacy.

What doesn't make sense (and why the EU position currently is correct) is why the fuck are those citizens not given the same rights as British nationals?

I think the EU position is that EU citizens in the UK should not be unilaterally deprived of their existing rights of EU citizenship (e.g. of free movement within the EU) post-Brexit. This does seem to be likely to create a two-tier system of rights, particularly if EU citizens can have recourse to the ECJ if they feel their EU-specific rights are being infringed.

It's yet another "unforseeen" complication, a bit like the Irish border issue, which was either not considered or knowingly swept under the carpet before the Referendum. Unfortunately for the UK, these are complex issues which will nevertheless have to be resolved before talks can be held on future trade relations.

David Davis said the priority of these matters would cause the "row of the summer", but then immediately agreed the timetable for talks put forward by the EU, i.e. settling these issues first. The UK issuing "position papers" on other matters is just muddying the water at this stage, but looks like decisive action in the press. In the meantime, the Article 50 deadline is looming and the talks are not even out of the starting-blocks yet.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6003 on: August 23, 2017, 03:51:45 pm »
Patrick Minford is still a c*nt, impervious to the human cost of his extreme ideological position.

I second the motion...

I remember him doing a seminar in the 80s at university, on how if we halved wages we would double the numbers in work. Pompous wasn't the word. In the QA session I mentioned that a company I had recently worked for (prior to uni) as a manager had employed a YTS and immediately cut the budgeted hours of the branch by 40 in effect replacing a member of staff. The man tried to say that it was a one off, til I pointed out that the rules changed and we then had another one appointed and cut hours by another 40- 2 jobs lost! He then said it must have been a small company, and I pointed out that it had 2500 branches so YTS had cost the equivalent of 5000 jobs. The room went very, very quiet. Insufferable little man just sat there. As you say, c*nt!
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6004 on: August 23, 2017, 04:23:03 pm »
Lucky we didn't join the euro then.....



Offline west_london_red

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6005 on: August 23, 2017, 05:46:32 pm »
I think the EU position is that EU citizens in the UK should not be unilaterally deprived of their existing rights of EU citizenship (e.g. of free movement within the EU) post-Brexit. This does seem to be likely to create a two-tier system of rights, particularly if EU citizens can have recourse to the ECJ if they feel their EU-specific rights are being infringed.

It's yet another "unforseeen" complication, a bit like the Irish border issue, which was either not considered or knowingly swept under the carpet before the Referendum. Unfortunately for the UK, these are complex issues which will nevertheless have to be resolved before talks can be held on future trade relations.

David Davis said the priority of these matters would cause the "row of the summer", but then immediately agreed the timetable for talks put forward by the EU, i.e. settling these issues first. The UK issuing "position papers" on other matters is just muddying the water at this stage, but looks like decisive action in the press. In the meantime, the Article 50 deadline is looming and the talks are not even out of the starting-blocks yet.

I'm confused on this point. If an EU national lives in the U.K. after Brexit surely they are subject to U.K. law while they are here and then EU law when in the EU. Just like a US citizen living in the U.K. can't carry a gun while in the UK but can in the US, or am I missing something?
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Offline Currywurst

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6006 on: August 23, 2017, 06:19:06 pm »
I'm confused on this point. If an EU national lives in the U.K. after Brexit surely they are subject to U.K. law while they are here and then EU law when in the EU. Just like a US citizen living in the U.K. can't carry a gun while in the UK but can in the US, or am I missing something?

As I understand it, it's more to do with existing rights, particularly rights of movement. If the UK leaves the EU, then its citizens will forfeit the right of free movement and settlement within the rest of the EU, so the existing automatic right to live and work in, say, France, will no longer apply to them. The EU says that EU citizens living in the UK with acquired right of residence here (after 5 years) should retain their current right to EU-wide movement, as otherwise they'd be deprived of rights which other EU citizens have, and these rights should be subject to monitoring and control by the ECJ. The UK position is that they would indeed lose those rights, just like UK nationals, despite the fact that, unlike UK nationals, they weren't able to vote on the matter.

As I said above, this is all so fiendishly complex (devil in the detail and all that) and I can't claim to understand all the ramifications, but it's just another one of those issues which is now rearing its ugly head and no-one mentioned at the time.

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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6007 on: August 23, 2017, 06:24:44 pm »
As I understand it, it's more to do with existing rights, particularly rights of movement. If the UK leaves the EU, then its citizens will forfeit the right of free movement and settlement within the rest of the EU, so the existing automatic right to live and work in, say, France, will no longer apply to them. The EU says that EU citizens living in the UK with acquired right of residence here (after 5 years) should retain their current right to EU-wide movement, as otherwise they'd be deprived of rights which other EU citizens have, and these rights should be subject to monitoring and control by the ECJ. The UK position is that they would indeed lose those rights, just like UK nationals, despite the fact that, unlike UK nationals, they weren't able to vote on the matter.

As I said above, this is all so fiendishly complex (devil in the detail and all that) and I can't claim to understand all the ramifications, but it's just another one of those issues which is now rearing its ugly head and no-one mentioned at the time.

EU citizens living in the UK will retain their rights to freedom of movement regardless of what happens with ECJ.  If you hold an EU passport you have the right of freedom of movement within the EU.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6008 on: August 23, 2017, 09:26:12 pm »
EU citizens living in the UK will retain their rights to freedom of movement regardless of what happens with ECJ.  If you hold an EU passport you have the right of freedom of movement within the EU.

That's what I was thinking. Having the right to remain in the U.K. as an EU citizen does not mean you can't keep your EU passport. My grandparents had the right to live, work and vote in the UK but still retained their Indian passports which let them go to India without a visa etc so other then an EU passport allowing a holder to visit any other EU country rather then just the one I can't see the difference here.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6009 on: August 24, 2017, 06:24:23 am »
Lucky we didn't join the euro then.....

Said it before, but surest way to nuke support for Brexit is to decouple pensions from the triple lock and let the crushed pound inflation bite. Of course, that's all sorts of wrong and hits Remainers and Brexiters alike but then that's what's happening to the rest of us...
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Offline stara

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6010 on: August 24, 2017, 07:52:02 am »
“I’m nervous about Brexit,” said Pat Apsley, who rears sheep and cattle on his small family farm of 100 acres. “It’s the unknown. It’s like a divorce. You don’t know what’s going to happen, really.” What Apsley fears most is the loss of EU subsidies. “I’d be finished without them. Couldn’t farm without subsidies,” he insisted.

https://www.marketplace.org/2017/08/22/economy/britains-farmers-have-second-thoughts-brexit

I'm pretty sure, EU will stop giving UK farmers money.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6011 on: August 24, 2017, 08:38:26 am »
As I understand it, it's more to do with existing rights, particularly rights of movement. If the UK leaves the EU, then its citizens will forfeit the right of free movement and settlement within the rest of the EU, so the existing automatic right to live and work in, say, France, will no longer apply to them. The EU says that EU citizens living in the UK with acquired right of residence here (after 5 years) should retain their current right to EU-wide movement, as otherwise they'd be deprived of rights which other EU citizens have, and these rights should be subject to monitoring and control by the ECJ. The UK position is that they would indeed lose those rights, just like UK nationals, despite the fact that, unlike UK nationals, they weren't able to vote on the matter.

As I said above, this is all so fiendishly complex (devil in the detail and all that) and I can't claim to understand all the ramifications, but it's just another one of those issues which is now rearing its ugly head and no-one mentioned at the time.



Nah, they can't do that. If you've got an EU passport, the UK can do sweet fuck all about the rights (and obligations) that come with that passport. That's the sovereignty of states for you. They can kick EU nationals out, or let them stay with reduced rights, or full rights or whatever, within the UK, but they can't affect what happening outside. The only way to do that is to give all EU nationals British passports and demand they hand their EU one in (but they can't even control that, they could only make it a condition of staying).
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6012 on: August 24, 2017, 08:41:49 am »
“I’m nervous about Brexit,” said Pat Apsley, who rears sheep and cattle on his small family farm of 100 acres. “It’s the unknown. It’s like a divorce. You don’t know what’s going to happen, really.” What Apsley fears most is the loss of EU subsidies. “I’d be finished without them. Couldn’t farm without subsidies,” he insisted.

https://www.marketplace.org/2017/08/22/economy/britains-farmers-have-second-thoughts-brexit

I'm pretty sure, EU will stop giving UK farmers money.

Of all the people in any industry who voted for Brexit, the ones I found puzzling is the sizeable amount of farmers who voted for it.

Irrespective of subsidies (of which there is much debate with farmers as to whether they are good or bad), tarrifs would surely be a killer for them? Food products have much higher tarrifs importing into Europe than manufactured products like cars. The tarrifs are something like 40%.

Those farmers face that level of tarrif when exporting their product whilst they face the liklihood of having domestic tarrifs reduced for products from other countries, which would also be much cheaper.

Maybe they felt strongly that both tarrif reduction here and tarrifs on the EU would not be applied? Or maybe they didnt care about their industry?

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6013 on: August 24, 2017, 09:24:25 am »
They probably believed that the govt would continue their subsidies!

Cos y'know, we'll all be loaded when we get out of the EU ::)

Offline Bunter

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6014 on: August 24, 2017, 12:14:23 pm »
Net migration to UK drops to lowest level for three years

Net migration to the UK has fallen to its lowest level in three years, as significantly more EU citizens left the country in the wake of the Brexit vote, official statistics have shown.

Related research also revealed that the impact of international students on net migration is much lower than previously thought as 97% of students from beyond the European Economic Area (EEA) leave before their visa expires.

The headline net migration figure of 246,000, which is the difference between immigration and emigration, was 81,000 lower than the 327,000 recorded in the March 2016 according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

The change was driven by a marked fall in net migration of EU citizens to the UK, as more left the country and fewer arrived in the months after the country voted to leave the European Union on 23 June 2016, statisticians said.

However, two complementary reports released at the same time by the ONS and Home Office have cast doubt over previous estimates of international students who remain in the UK once their studies are completed, contrary to previous suggestions that tens of thousands were illegally remaining.

The Home Office paper on “exit checks” data – a proper count of all people who are actually known to have left the UK – found 176,317 – 97.4% – of 181, 024 international students from outside the EEA left on time.

Meanwhile, the ONS found “strong evidence” that the current methodology used is likely to “underestimate student emigration” and therefore figures on the contribution that students make to net migration is likely to be an overestimate.

The findings have led to confusion over the government’s stance on international students. Theresa May, as home secretary and now prime minister, has held steadfast to the view that international students should be included within official migration estimates.

May has insisted students remain within the official net migration statistics on grounds that a significant number of international students flouted rules and overstayed their visas – a premise disproven by the most up to date study. Previous estimates put the level of overstayers as high as 100,000-plus, when according to the exit checks analysis, this figure is more likely to be under 5,000.

The perceived presence of student overstayers has driven Tory immigration policy since Theresa May entered the department with curbs on student visas increasing over the last seven years.

Diane Abbott, the shadow home secretary, said: “Tory migration policy is a shambles. Against all advice, Theresa May continues to insist in maintaining an arbitrary net migration target of under 100,000, which has never once been met.
“Now it seems that her long-running campaign to malign international students is based on fantasy, with no evidence of a major issue with students overstaying. Some in government appear to be waking up to the idea that overseas students make a valuable contribution to our country and have belatedly asked the Migration Advisory Committee to gather evidence.
“Labour will offer fair rules and reasonable management of migration; prioritising jobs, growth and prosperity, not bogus net migration targets.”

The Home Office on Thursday launched an independent review into the economic impact of international students who remain in the UK. But the latest figures show that the impact is far lower than previously thought and is likely to mean that the total net migration figure is tens of thousands lower.

Elsewhere in the statistics, emigration of EU citizens increased by 33,000 year-on-year to 122,000 – the highest outflow for nearly a decade.

There was a particularly sharp rise, of 17,000, in departures of citizens from the so-called EU8 countries, which joined the union in 2004 – the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia.

At the same time there was a 19,000 decrease in immigration from the EU, although this was not statistically significant.

Jonathan Portes, the economist, said: “These statistics confirm that Brexit is having a significant impact on migration flows, even before we have left the EU or any changes are made to law or policy.

“EU nationals, both those already here and those considering a move to the UK, are understandably concerned about their future status in the UK. My earlier research suggested that Brexit was likely to lead to a large fall in EU migration to the UK, with a significant negative impact on the UK economy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/24/net-migration-to-uk-drops-to-lowest-level-for-three-years


Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6015 on: August 24, 2017, 12:32:48 pm »
Food industry warns of Brexit workforce shortage

Quote
47% said EU nationals were considering leaving the UK
36% said they would become unviable if they had no access to EU workers
31% reported EU nationals leaving since the referendum
17% said they may relocate overseas if they had no access to EU nationals

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41025082

The highest rated comments below that article are, not unusually for BBC comments, written by people who come across as absolute dickheads.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 12:36:53 pm by ShakaHislop »

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6016 on: August 24, 2017, 01:10:39 pm »
Turns out as well that the Home Office slightly overestimated the number of overseas students overstaying in the UK.

And by slightly, I mean by 96%.



But no worries, the government will easily be able to manage a new immigration system. And customs system, endless new regulatory bodies etc...

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6017 on: August 24, 2017, 02:07:08 pm »

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6018 on: August 24, 2017, 10:11:19 pm »
Food industry warns of Brexit workforce shortage

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41025082

The highest rated comments below that article are, not unusually for BBC comments, written by people who come across as absolute dickheads.

I always find it amusing how these trade bodies seem to forget the most simple of economic theories. If you can't attract enough staff you need to pay more, it's called supply and demand.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6019 on: August 24, 2017, 10:20:42 pm »
I always find it amusing how these trade bodies seem to forget the most simple of economic theories. If you can't attract enough staff you need to pay more, it's called supply and demand.

Pay more? Are you mad? Of course they wont pay more and down with those suggestions.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6020 on: August 24, 2017, 10:53:25 pm »
The Newsnight piece on the Sweden-Norway border is very interesting. Safe to say that both sides of Ireland are fucked.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6021 on: August 30, 2017, 02:44:11 pm »
PPS to Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson starts manically tweeting at Michel Barnier:



Then claims, surprise surprise, he's been HACKED!!!

@ConorBurnsUK
Have been out on visits since 10am this morning. Home to find both twitter and email hacked. Passwords changed

https://twitter.com/ConorBurnsUK/status/902879982132883457 (Twitter responds to this in the expected manner  ;D)


DAG assesses the probability of this:

@davidallengreen
Imagine having your Twitter account hacked by someone who knew the difference between liability coming from a directive and a regulation.

Whoever hacked the @ConorBurnsUK Twitter account knew the distinction between treaty obligations and directives under EU law. How curious.

Not even all lawyers would know distinction. So hacker is either a EU lawyer, or someone close enough to budget issue to know difference.

One key issue on the legal(istic) side of the financial issue is whether the re is liability under Treaty articles and/or directives.

The hacker knew this, hence why they asked Barmier about *both* treaty obligations and directives. Wording could not be by accident.

1/2 So: the @ConorBurnsUK hacker is either an expert on EU law and/or the Brexit budget issue or...

2/2 ...someone with access to exact same papers and briefings on Brexit which, say, a PPS to a foreign secretary would have. Rotten luck.



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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6022 on: August 31, 2017, 12:42:09 am »
Seems the plan now is to divide and conquer or maybe it's to go round begging for mercy.

UK plan to bypass European Commission in Brexit talks doomed to fail

Brussels officials have poured cold water on Britain’s threat to bypass the EU and open one-on-one Brexit negotiations with Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel.
The British government is frustrated that the EU will not discuss the terms of the future EU-UK relationship until secession issues like the “divorce bill” and the rights of EU citizens are settled.
As a result Downing Street is reportedly planning to go over the heads of the EU negotiating team and go directly to world leaders: where they hope they will get a warmer reception on the subject of trade.
The plan comes after harsh words from Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and chief negotiator Michel Barnier about Britain’s approach to the talks so far – with Mr Barnier urging the UK to begin negotiating “seriously”.
But asked about the threat to go directly to member states, Brussels officials close to the negotiations pointed to a statement agreed by member states, including France and Germany, that they would abstain from any separate side talks.
“So as not to undercut the position of the Union, there will be no separate negotiations between individual Member States and the United Kingdom on matters pertaining to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union,” they say.
The French government also said earlier this week that it "fully supports, on the substance as well as on the method, Michel Barnier's negotiating mandate" and that suggestions in the British eurosceptic press that it would bypass him “are founded on absolutely nothing and do not reflect reality”.
Brexit Secretary Mr Davis said at the start of the latest round of talks that he wanted to see "flexibility and imagination on both sides".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-brussels-macron-merkel-david-davis-theresa-may-trade-a7919596.html?utm_content=buffer84193&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:54:27 am by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6023 on: August 31, 2017, 01:14:02 am »
May said in one of her interviews yesterday that the hoped-for UK-Japan trade deal post-Brexit will be modelled on the EU-Japan deal currently being negotiated. If only if there was a way to gain the benefits of the EU-Japan deal without having to spend the time and expense ourselves...

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6024 on: August 31, 2017, 01:43:16 am »
May said in one of her interviews yesterday that the hoped-for UK-Japan trade deal post-Brexit will be modelled on the EU-Japan deal currently being negotiated. If only if there was a way to gain the benefits of the EU-Japan deal without having to spend the time and expense ourselves...
:)
Maybe one EU country could sign us into the EU club every year, that way we wouldn't actually members but we could enjoy the benefits just the same.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline Trada

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6025 on: September 1, 2017, 07:44:24 am »
 Liam Fox accuses EU of trying to 'blackmail' UK over Brexit deal

Speaking from Japan, international trade secretary hits back at Barnier claims that British government is being unrealistic about financial settlement

The international trade secretary, Liam Fox, has ratcheted up the government’s war of words with the EU over Brexit by saying Britain will not be “blackmailed” into paying an excessive exit settlement to speed up a deal.

Fox’s comment follows a tense press conference in Brussels on Thursday after the third round of exit talks, in which the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, accused the UK of being mired in “nostalgia” rather than taking a realistic approach.

Speaking in Tokyo on Friday, where he is accompanying Theresa May on a trip focused on post-Brexit trade, Fox was asked by ITV news whether it was time for Britain to agree on the much-disputed departure settlement with the EU, hastening progress towards the second, trade-focused part of the process.

“We can’t be blackmailed into paying a price on the first part,” Fox said.

He continued: “We think we should begin discussions on the final settlement because that’s good for business, and it’s good for the prosperity both of the British people and of the rest of the people of the European Union.”

Speaking later to Sky News, Fox said he was concerned the Brexit talks were “stuck” on the initial issues.

“I think there is frustration that we have not been able to get on that longer-term issue, that we’re stuck on this separation issue, and we’re not able to get on to the issues that will matter in the longer term for the future prosperity of the UK and the people of Europe.

“And I had representations from businesses from across Europe – from Germany, from Spain – to say: ‘Can we put more pressure on the commission to try and get us a better idea of what that final picture will look like because we need to maintain an open and liberal trading environment in Europe?’”

Fox was speaking ahead of May’s final leg of a three-day trip to Kyoto and Tokyo, focused in part on defence and security, but primarily as an exercise in reassuring Japanese businesses that post-Brexit Britain can remain a gateway to the EU.

After a series of talks with her Japanese counterpart, Shinzo Abe, May won a formal agreement with Japan that the two countries will seek to strike a rapid replacement trade deal once Brexit is completed.

This would be closely based on a long-negotiated economic partnership agreement between the EU and Japan, which both sides aim to sign soon. May hopes such instant copycat deals – termed “cut-and-paste Brexit” by opponents – could be reached with other nations, creating continuity and confidence. They would officially be interim but could last some years before bespoke UK deals are reached.

The release of the joint statement saw Downing Street hail May’s trip to Japan as a great success. However, as she was holding a cordial press conference with Abe in Tokyo, a very different equivalent event was taking place in Brussels.

EU negotiator Barnier, speaking alongside the Brexit secretary, David Davis, warned that the UK’s approach to Brexit was nostalgic, unrealistic and undermined by a lack of trust, his strongest criticism of the UK’s stance at the talks so far.

Barnier said some of the recent British proposals showed “a sort of nostalgia in the form of specific requests which would amount to continuing to enjoy the benefits of the single market and EU membership without actually being part of it”.

This drew an acid response from Davis, who remarked that Barnier should not “confuse a belief in the free market with nostalgia”.

Barnier said he had been left impatient by the British approach and complained there had been “no decisive progress”. Again, Davis disagreed, insisting progress had been “concrete”.

May was due to meet Japan’s Emperor Akihito in Tokyo on Friday morning before attending a wheelchair basketball match, connected to a UK promise to assist Japan ahead of the 2020 Olympics and Paralympics in Tokyo. She was then scheduled to fly back to London.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/01/liam-fox-uk-blackmailed-eu-brexit-deal
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6026 on: September 1, 2017, 11:44:40 am »
Liam Fox accuses EU of trying to 'blackmail' UK over Brexit deal

Speaking from Japan, international trade secretary hits back at Barnier claims that British government is being unrealistic about financial settlement

The international trade secretary, Liam Fox, has ratcheted up the government’s war of words with the EU over Brexit by saying Britain will not be “blackmailed” into paying an excessive exit settlement to speed up a deal.

Fox’s comment follows a tense press conference in Brussels on Thursday after the third round of exit talks, in which the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, accused the UK of being mired in “nostalgia” rather than taking a realistic approach.

Speaking in Tokyo on Friday, where he is accompanying Theresa May on a trip focused on post-Brexit trade, Fox was asked by ITV news whether it was time for Britain to agree on the much-disputed departure settlement with the EU, hastening progress towards the second, trade-focused part of the process.

“We can’t be blackmailed into paying a price on the first part,” Fox said.

He continued: “We think we should begin discussions on the final settlement because that’s good for business, and it’s good for the prosperity both of the British people and of the rest of the people of the European Union.”

Speaking later to Sky News, Fox said he was concerned the Brexit talks were “stuck” on the initial issues.

“I think there is frustration that we have not been able to get on that longer-term issue, that we’re stuck on this separation issue, and we’re not able to get on to the issues that will matter in the longer term for the future prosperity of the UK and the people of Europe.

“And I had representations from businesses from across Europe – from Germany, from Spain – to say: ‘Can we put more pressure on the commission to try and get us a better idea of what that final picture will look like because we need to maintain an open and liberal trading environment in Europe?’”

Fox was speaking ahead of May’s final leg of a three-day trip to Kyoto and Tokyo, focused in part on defence and security, but primarily as an exercise in reassuring Japanese businesses that post-Brexit Britain can remain a gateway to the EU.

After a series of talks with her Japanese counterpart, Shinzo Abe, May won a formal agreement with Japan that the two countries will seek to strike a rapid replacement trade deal once Brexit is completed.

This would be closely based on a long-negotiated economic partnership agreement between the EU and Japan, which both sides aim to sign soon. May hopes such instant copycat deals – termed “cut-and-paste Brexit” by opponents – could be reached with other nations, creating continuity and confidence. They would officially be interim but could last some years before bespoke UK deals are reached.

The release of the joint statement saw Downing Street hail May’s trip to Japan as a great success. However, as she was holding a cordial press conference with Abe in Tokyo, a very different equivalent event was taking place in Brussels.

EU negotiator Barnier, speaking alongside the Brexit secretary, David Davis, warned that the UK’s approach to Brexit was nostalgic, unrealistic and undermined by a lack of trust, his strongest criticism of the UK’s stance at the talks so far.

Barnier said some of the recent British proposals showed “a sort of nostalgia in the form of specific requests which would amount to continuing to enjoy the benefits of the single market and EU membership without actually being part of it”.

This drew an acid response from Davis, who remarked that Barnier should not “confuse a belief in the free market with nostalgia”.

Barnier said he had been left impatient by the British approach and complained there had been “no decisive progress”. Again, Davis disagreed, insisting progress had been “concrete”.

May was due to meet Japan’s Emperor Akihito in Tokyo on Friday morning before attending a wheelchair basketball match, connected to a UK promise to assist Japan ahead of the 2020 Olympics and Paralympics in Tokyo. She was then scheduled to fly back to London.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/01/liam-fox-uk-blackmailed-eu-brexit-deal
More spin. what this actually means is the Japanese and all the other countrys the Torys say are lining up to sign great trade deals are waiting to see what deal we get from the EU before they agree any deal with us, a bad deal or no deal means we have no bargaining power so no brilliant trade deals will be offered.
We argued this before the triggering of art 50 but leave argued we've got all these trade deals lined up already and people fell for it. lying ba....
« Last Edit: September 1, 2017, 11:46:48 am by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6027 on: September 3, 2017, 11:07:31 am »
There's going to be a lot of propaganda coming from the Torys this week, many people will be watching to see how Labour MPs react.
Long article so posted first few paragraphs

The fantasy that Brexit would be easy is costing us dear

Cowardice is a progressive disease. Leave it untreated and it can kill. Everyone should know by now that the big lie of Brexit was not that it would deliver £350m a week to the NHS – although that was as brazen a political lie as Suez – but that Brexit would be easy. Everyone should know but not everyone does. Political cowards will not force the public to confront the unpalatable truth.

That the electorate was deceived is certain. “The day after we vote we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want,” declared Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove in April last year . The voters should not worry their silly little heads because “there will continue to be free trade and access to the single market”, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson continued. Brexit will free us, added David Davis. “Be under no doubt, we can do deals with our trading partners and we can do them quickly.
Instead of the promised utopia, we are in our weakest negotiating position since Munich. Far from skipping away down whatever path we want, we are doomed to trudge into a mire. Craig Oliver, David Cameron’s spin doctor, said that Brexit represented the defeat of “complex truth in the face of simple lies”. Britain is about to be taught that the trouble with complex truths is that you cannot deny them forever.
But who will do the teaching? Despite its recent shift in policy, Labour has displayed a cowardly unwillingness to hold the Tories to account by throwing the false bill of goods Leave campaigners offered back in their faces. But however deplorable Labour’s timidity has been, the cowardice that matters is Theresa May’s.
She made the horrendous mistake of endorsing every false promise the Leave campaign made when she took power. She might have said she would respect the referendum result but had to warn the public that leaving the EU would be hard and that there would have to be compromises if Britain was to avoid needless suffering. Instead, she made the propaganda of Frottage, Johnson and Gove her own. Our hapless diplomats were instructed to work on the assumption that there would be little cost in leaving the EU – no restrictions on access to the single market or customs checks at the border – because it was in the EU’s interests to let us have our cake and eat it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/02/fantasy-that-brexit-would-be-easy-is-costing-us-dear?CMP=twt_gu

It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6028 on: September 4, 2017, 05:10:58 pm »
@JenniferMerode
Guy Verhofstadt  says on 21 September there will be "an important intervention" from British PM, so Brexit round 4 pushed back one week.


Resignation? Another election? Or (perhaps most likely) another vacuous speech saying nothing at all......

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6029 on: September 4, 2017, 05:34:20 pm »
Kenny MacAskill: Lexit is as damaging as Brexit, and its proponents are equally deluded

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/kenny-macaskill-lexit-is-as-damaging-as-brexit-and-its-proponents-are-equally-deluded-1-4540210

The closing paragraphs sum it up pretty well.

...Lexiteers, like Brexiteers, have another view of the world. The latter see Britain trading globally as some South Asian entrepot sited in the northern hemisphere and the former view it as some socialist bastion fending off globalisation. Both are deluded. Power blocs exist and trading zones and like-minded political allies are required. Moreover, tackling the major issues whether migration or terrorism, the economy or the environment all require co-operation especially with our neighbours and more importantly with like-minded people. The EU is not perfect but it can be made better. For sure, the once-large parties of the left in Europe have, in the main, collapsed but they can come again. It’s noticeable that almost all main left figures in Europe, including in Greece, oppose Lexit, Corbyn’s policy to them being more British nationalist than European socialist. In the interim, I’d rather take my chances with those who support liberal democracy than with what’s happening in the other major power blocs.

So when Corbyn departs, the question “what is the Labour Party in Scotland?’ remains unanswered. Are they for staying in the single market as Kezia Dugdale wishes, or for leaving as Corbyn seems set? Moreover, what is their policy on nuclear weapons when Dugdale supports their retention but Scottish Labour demands their removal, and yet Corbyn opposes them himself, but the British Labour Party is for maintaining them.

What will become clear is that Lexit is as damaging as Brexit, and their proponents are equally deluded.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6030 on: September 4, 2017, 05:46:49 pm »
The closing paragraphs sum it up pretty well.

... In the interim, I’d rather take my chances with those who support liberal democracy than with what’s happening in the other major power blocs.
 


Me too.

The problem is "liberal democracy" isn't very highly rated by Corbynistas. If it was they wouldn't have been so goggle-eyed at Chavez and Venezuela. They wouldn't still have a soft spot for Castro and Cuba. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6031 on: September 5, 2017, 01:47:11 pm »
Be a Brexit optimist!

Don't go abroad and wash your clothes by hand.....

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/905012492069478402

Can't believe it's taken us this long to leave the EU, they've been holding us back from this paradise for decades.....

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6032 on: September 5, 2017, 05:09:27 pm »
@JenniferMerode
Guy Verhofstadt  says on 21 September there will be "an important intervention" from British PM, so Brexit round 4 pushed back one week.


Resignation? Another election? Or (perhaps most likely) another vacuous speech saying nothing at all......

Its around party conference season so probably a forced pause.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6033 on: September 5, 2017, 06:01:54 pm »
Be a Brexit optimist!

Don't go abroad and wash your clothes by hand.....

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/905012492069478402

Can't believe it's taken us this long to leave the EU, they've been holding us back from this paradise for decades.....

I love this kind of nonsense from brexiters. The mental gymnastics they go through as simple logic destroys every single one of their arguments is joyous to watch but still they refuse to see the fallacy of their arguments.

If you're lying, I'll chop your head off.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6034 on: September 5, 2017, 06:34:54 pm »
Leaked documents outlining possible immigration plans for EU nationals post Brexit.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

Plans include offering 'low skilled' immigrant workers a maximum stay of 2 years whilst higher skilled immigrants get 3-5 years.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6035 on: September 5, 2017, 06:54:42 pm »
The amount of weight given to 'public concern' as a justification for all of that planning would amuse me if it didn't piss me off. Public services? Then fucking fund them again. Jobs? Then fund education and training and look to move away from the wankery of zero hour contracts and below living wage pay (hint: 8 years of public pay freezes isn't helping). And 'confidence' in the ability of the Government to manage immigration? Well maybe not trying to set targets which are in no way reflective of what the economy needs at any particular point in time - because a government is going to continue to look like a bunch of tits when it keeps missing those targets whether in the EU or out of it.
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Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6037 on: September 5, 2017, 10:32:07 pm »
Sobering analysis:

https://www.facebook.com/PIIEonline/videos/1818836628146435/

Unfortunately, those who need to see and understand that will do neither.

Although there are some IRL people I will take great pleasure in telling 'I told you so', there could be 10,000 of them and it would never be enough to make up for how I feel about the UK leaving the EU, Customs Union and Single Market. I say this as someone who lives in the US and has little to intention of living in the UK again. It seems that the UK (on the whole) is sleepwalking into this. Where are the opposing political voices? Why did the masses overwhelmingly vote for the Tories and Labour in the recent GE? -Whose leadership are, as Adam Posen correctly pointed out, as decidedly anti-EU and pro-Brexit as the Tories (though they generally deny (or lie about) this).

My formative years were under the Thatcher Government. But for all Thatcher's faults (I loathed her), she was not stupid and would not have entertained something like this. I never thought I'd see Britain go through a similarly terrible Government again. I was wrong: this is not just similar, it so much worse.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6038 on: September 5, 2017, 10:50:18 pm »
Unfortunately, those who need to see and understand that will do neither.

Although there are some IRL people I will take great pleasure in telling 'I told you so', there could be 10,000 of them and it would never be enough to make up for how I feel about the UK leaving the EU, Customs Union and Single Market. I say this as someone who lives in the US and has little to intention of living in the UK again. It seems that the UK (on the whole) is sleepwalking into this. Where are the opposing political voices? Why did the masses overwhelmingly vote for the Tories and Labour in the recent GE? -Whose leadership are, as Adam Posen correctly pointed out, as decidedly anti-EU and pro-Brexit as the Tories (though they generally deny (or lie about) this).

My formative years were under the Thatcher Government. But for all Thatcher's faults (I loathed her), she was not stupid and would not have entertained something like this. I never thought I'd see Britain go through a similarly terrible Government again. I was wrong: this is not just similar, it so much worse.

It's utter madness. People saying we have to go through with it because of the referendum despite the fact that it will ruin the economy.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Its all about winning shiny things.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #6039 on: September 6, 2017, 12:03:19 am »
Sobering analysis:

https://www.facebook.com/PIIEonline/videos/1818836628146435/

holy cow - yes - great analysis - spot on - a vote for little england by little englanders