Topic: Malaysian passenger plane reportedly shot down.

[JohnHobbes]

Looking at the numbers. It seems like it's major tragedy for the Dutch rather than Malaysia.

Looking at the numbers? It's a major tragedy for everyone.

[redgriffin73]

Holy fucking shit.

I was just passively listening to sky in the background, thought it said '8' children. I was thinking only 8 children aboard a flight that size was a low number.

80 is absolutely awful  (Not that 8 isnt, mind)

A school trip maybe?

Btw, just a warning to people - there are some fucking horrific images going around Twitter of bodies in the wreckage that are easy to come across without warning.

[exiledintheUSA]

Btw, just a warning to people - there are some fucking horrific images going around Twitter of bodies in the wreckage that are easy to come across without warning.

Yep, seen a few, one would be too much most.

[zabadoh]

WTF is a commercial airliner doing flying anywhere near a war zone?

A major failure of the airline and flight crew to protect its passengers moreso than any of the combatants.

[JohnHobbes]

6 Brits confirmed on board. BBC news.

I hate it when the media report this part as if it matters (to anyone apart from the poor families involved) as if the audience and people won't care about such a tragedy otherwise. As if the story needs to have some connection with people and fellow country people lost before it will get attention.

295 people died unnecessarily and that's all that matters, certainly not their nationalities/gender/beliefs/etc..., and regardless of where they come from it's an awful tragedy.

[exiledintheUSA]

WTF is a commercial airliner doing flying anywhere near a war zone?

A major failure of the airline and flight crew to protect its passengers moreso than any of the combatants.

Not at all.  Commercial aircraft fly over conflict zones every hour of every day.  The route this particular aircraft was on is the most popular route used by major airlines when traversing European airspace and heading in the direction of SE Asia.

[jillcwhomever]

WTF is a commercial airliner doing flying anywhere near a war zone?

A major failure of the airline and flight crew to protect its passengers moreso than any of the combatants.

All the airliners were doing it, according to reports. It's a route which saves time and presumably money. At the end of the day its the fault of the people who were responsible, no one else.

[PattoLFC]

I hate it when the media report this part as if it matters (to anyone apart from the poor families involved) as if the audience and people won't care about such a tragedy otherwise. As if the story needs to have some connection with people and fellow country people lost before it will get attention.

295 people died unnecessarily and that's all that matters, certainly not their nationalities/gender/beliefs/etc..., and regardless of where they come from it's an awful tragedy.

I think the point of how many from each country is being used to show the significance of the diplomatic incident this could cause with so many different nations affected by this.  I agree with your overall point though.

[exiledintheUSA]

I think the point of how many from each country is being used to show the significance of the diplomatic incident this could cause with so many different nations affected by this.  I agree with your overall point though.

This is pretty much spot-on.  Seems like the US is waiting with baited breath to see how many US nationals are on board and in some way whether it makes the option of retaliation a viable one.

[El_Pistolero]

I hate it when the media report this part as if it matters (to anyone apart from the poor families involved) as if the audience and people won't care about such a tragedy otherwise. As if the story needs to have some connection with people and fellow country people lost before it will get attention.

295 people died unnecessarily and that's all that matters, certainly not their nationalities/gender/beliefs/etc..., and regardless of where they come from it's an awful tragedy.

To be honest they countries where the news broadcaster originate from are always going to highlight the amount of natives onboard. But there's nothing highlighting that on the front page of the Beeb, just the overall total death toll. Don't think anybody's putting one nationality over another here.

[Mouth]

WTF is a commercial airliner doing flying anywhere near a war zone?

A major failure of the airline and flight crew to protect its passengers moreso than any of the combatants.

Unless its a military controlled no fly zone, which is enforced by an air force, its quite normal. Commercial jets fly too high and too fast to be hit by anything other than very sophisticated and expensive weapon systems.

These are meant to be local militia involved in a civil war, wouldn't expect they'd have the money or capabilities to carry out this sort of thing. Questions are rightly being asked about what the weapon was and where it came from.

[BarryCrocker]

Apparently, Putin and Obama were on the phone to each other when it actually went down.

Audio intercepts now coming through between Russian separatists and Russian intelligence on Skynews Australia


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/BbyZYgSXdyw?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/BbyZYgSXdyw?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

[JohnHobbes]

I think the point of how many from each country is being used to show the significance of the diplomatic incident this could cause with so many different nations affected by this.  I agree with your overall point though.

You're no doubt right but when it happens each tragedy then it seems so damn disrespectful to the people who died when it seems very important for some of the media (read esp. tabloids) to report just how many Britons died. As if the fact 6 Britons lost their lives make it any worse, or that the other 289 who died matter less than them. Some of their headlines actually starting with number of British dead before mentioning the total dead.

[Liamski-la]

Unless its a military controlled no fly zone, which is enforced by an air force, its quite normal. Commercial jets fly too high and too fast to be hit by anything other than very sophisticated and expensive weapon systems.

These are meant to be local militia involved in a civil war, wouldn't expect they'd have the money or capabilities to carry out this sort of thing. Questions are rightly being asked about what the weapon was and where it came from.

The fact that a missile system was that Far East in an area controlled by rebels sort of suggests only one possible source.

[JohnHobbes]

To be honest they countries where the news broadcaster originate from are always going to highlight the amount of natives onboard. But there's nothing highlighting that on the front page of the Beeb, just the overall total death toll. Don't think anybody's putting one nationality over another here.

I didn't mean on here but just listening to news reports/seeing press headlines. Anyway, I'll shut up about it now.

[El_Pistolero]

Apparently, Putin and Obama were on the phone to each other when it actually went down.

Audio intercepts now coming through between Russian separatists and Russian intelligence on Skynews Australia

It's between seperatists, not seperatists and Russian intelligence. Helps nobody to throw about claims like that.

I didn't mean on here but just listening to news reports/seeing press headlines. Anyway, I'll shut up about it now.

Nah fair enough. You're right in that respect, just read over it too quickly to notice you were making a general point.

The fact that a missile system was that Far East in an area controlled by rebels sort of suggests only one possible source.

They 'captured' it ages ago.

[JohnHobbes]

Unless its a military controlled no fly zone, which is enforced by an air force, its quite normal. Commercial jets fly too high and too fast to be hit by anything other than very sophisticated and expensive weapon systems.

These are meant to be local militia involved in a civil war, wouldn't expect they'd have the money or capabilities to carry out this sort of thing. Questions are rightly being asked about what the weapon was and where it came from.

It was the height more than the speed of the plane. Portable launchers are normally heat seekers IIRC and have a quite low ceiling. To get to an airliner or a fighter/bomber at altitude then you need both radar guidance to track something 6 miles up and a much more powerful missile to get there.

[BarryCrocker]

It's between seperatists, not seperatists and Russian intelligence. Helps nobody to throw about claims like that.

I was just reporting what the Telegraph & Guardian are stating. Audio is still unverified.

[Doc Red]

Horrible, just horrible.
The type of news that makes you feel sick to your stomach.
Probably on the way back from holidays, too.
May they rest in peace.

[zabadoh]

Unless its a military controlled no fly zone, which is enforced by an air force, its quite normal. Commercial jets fly too high and too fast to be hit by anything other than very sophisticated and expensive weapon systems.

If that's the airlines' reckoning, then I reckon they've just been proven wrong about the risk of going into this and other such areas.

All the airliners were doing it, according to reports. It's a route which saves time and presumably money. At the end of the day its the fault of the people who were responsible, no one else.

Because, as we all know, war fighting follows strict rules and fighting men are always sober and careful of who and what they are shooting at. /sarcasm

Hopefully a good sized lawsuit is coming from the bereaved and the airlines will learn not to endanger their passengers to save some time and fuel.

And just because everyone else is doing something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

[Renato]

Death toll up to 298 apparently, 3 more infants found

[The Fletcher Memorial]

Is it?

Yes

[Gnurglan]

Just saw this. My only question is - why?
It's a civilian plane. No win situation. Nothing to gain. At all. Unless you want to make the conflict worse. I suspect that none of the sides Ukraine/Russia are stupid enough to order this. And therefore, my guess it's done by some lunatics who happened to have access to a very advanced type of missile. You don't bring out the normal gun to target a plane flying at 10 000 m. Which may make things even worse. How come these lunatics have access to that kind of weapon?

[JongWK]

Didn't they say 23 Americans earlier on?

Interfax, IIRC. Not all passengers have been counted, though.

Front page of the Mirror says 80 children thought to be on board.

The casualties haven been updated to 298. Three babies had no seat so they had not been counted. 

A number of AIDS researchers and scientists were also on the plane.

[eLToRo]

Just saw this. My only question is - why?
It's a civilian plane. No win situation. Nothing to gain. At all. Unless you want to make the conflict worse. I suspect that none of the sides Ukraine/Russia are stupid enough to order this. And therefore, my guess it's done by some lunatics who happened to have access to a very advanced type of missile. You don't bring out the normal gun to target a plane flying at 10 000 m. Which may make things even worse. How come these lunatics have access to that kind of weapon?

Did you read the rest of the thread?

Basically, these idiots got hold of this weapon(robbed I think) and thought it was a spy plane or something and shot it down. They wern't aware it was a civilian plane.

[Zeb]

Fucking idiocy of this. Thoughts with those who've lost loved ones.

Just on the transcript thing. It's from the Ukrainian secret service and they do claim that the first conversation of the three is between a rebel and a colonel in Russian intelligence. The Ukrainians have been quite insistent for quite a long time that Russia is arming and supporting the rebels. (see Kyiv Post's coverage).

Christian Science Monitor has a piece on the changing social media claims from the rebels. Stupid thing with the denials of even having the capability is that some of the planes they have been shooting down must therefore have been shot down by the Russians. Some Russian media outlets are suggesting that the Ukrainians did it because they thought Putin was on the plane.

[Red_Irishman]

Fucking idiocy of this. Thoughts with those who've lost loved ones.

Just on the transcript thing. It's from the Ukrainian secret service and they do claim that the first conversation of the three is between a rebel and a colonel in Russian intelligence. The Ukrainians have been quite insistent for quite a long time that Russia is arming and supporting the rebels. (see Kyiv Post's coverage).

Christian Science Monitor has a piece on the changing social media claims from the rebels. Stupid thing with the denials of even having the capability is that some of the planes they have been shooting down must therefore have been shot down by the Russians. Some Russian media outlets are suggesting that the Ukrainians did it because they thought Putin was on the plane.

I'm very uneducated when It comes to the Russia/Ukraine debacle but my god, that would be something if it were true The Russians were arming the rebels.

Cause for war.

[TheoRacle]

And just because everyone else is doing something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

Just at a rough guess that would probaly result in grounding 10-20% of the worlds airline traffic due to slot and traffic constraints given the amount of warzones currently operating in the world.

[Gifted Right Foot]

Truly horrific.  RIP.

[Mamadou]

Fucking idiocy of this. Thoughts with those who've lost loved ones.

Just on the transcript thing. It's from the Ukrainian secret service and they do claim that the first conversation of the three is between a rebel and a colonel in Russian intelligence. The Ukrainians have been quite insistent for quite a long time that Russia is arming and supporting the rebels. (see Kyiv Post's coverage).

Christian Science Monitor has a piece on the changing social media claims from the rebels. Stupid thing with the denials of even having the capability is that some of the planes they have been shooting down must therefore have been shot down by the Russians. Some Russian media outlets are suggesting that the Ukrainians did it because they thought Putin was on the plane.

russian media are full of propaganda... that kind of suggestion is idiotic. Their media is monitored, controlled and censored by Putin.

everyone with half a brain knows that russians did it, and everyone with half a brain knows that Putin is helping them

the only question is: how to stop that lunatic person?

[Zeb]

I'm very uneducated when It comes to the Russia/Ukraine debacle but my god, that would be something if it were true The Russians were arming the rebels.

Cause for war.

It's a claim supported by the US State Department. NYT story. Beyond that, one for another thread I think (and one I'll steer clear of!). Just so needless really.

Flowers outside the Dutch embassy in Moscow. The note says 'Forgive Us'.




And outside the Dutch embassy in Kiev.



(pictures from twitter)

[NY-AmericanRed]

That's some heavy gear. Not your standard rebel weaponry.

That's Red Square parade-level hardware

[Suspect Package.]

Just saw this. My only question is - why?
It's a civilian plane. No win situation. Nothing to gain. At all. Unless you want to make the conflict worse. I suspect that none of the sides Ukraine/Russia are stupid enough to order this. And therefore, my guess it's done by some lunatics who happened to have access to a very advanced type of missile. You don't bring out the normal gun to target a plane flying at 10 000 m. Which may make things even worse. How come these lunatics have access to that kind of weapon?

The seperatists have the Buk missile system, there's a few photos flying about of the vehicles they captured from the Ukrainian army and they've shot down a few Ukrainian aircraft.



Here's a report from a few days ago about the seperatists shooting down of Ukrainian An-26 Cargo aircraft.

There's even video of separatist vehicles moving about near the area of the crash site.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/wkgwxxhJlk4&amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/wkgwxxhJlk4&amp;hl=en_US</a>


The logical chain of events is that they thought they were targeting another cargo aircraft and made a mistake. It's not the first time this type of thing has happened in war sadly.

[Hij]

c*nts

[Hij]

Rebels can shoot a plane down from cruising altitude can they? Would be very surprised. Horrible tragedy. I wish I had never seen some of the photos shown to me earlier. I don't believe in a god but I hope their families cope ok.

[TheoRacle]

The logical chain of events is that they thought they were targeting a military aircraft and made a mistake. It's not the first time it's happened sadly.

and probably underestimated the systems capability or just didnt have appropriate training in the targeting systems if there was actually a miltary transport in the area that they were intending to take out.

Cynic that I am, I still can't imagine a scenario where someone intended for this to happen.  Almost certainly incompentance in there somewhere.

Unfortunately 295 innocent people and their families bear the direct and unimaginable consequences not to mention the poor MAS employees who will inevitably lose their jobs now as a result of some idiot with an itchy trigger finger.

[Suspect Package.]

and probably underestimated the systems capability or just didnt have appropriate training in the targeting systems if there was actually a miltary transport in the area that they were intending to take out.

Cynic that I am, I still can't imagine a scenario where someone intended for this to happen.  Almost certainly incompentance in there somewhere.

Unfortunately 295 innocent people and their families bear the direct and unimaginable consequences not to mention the poor MAS employees who will inevitably lose their jobs now as a result of some idiot with an itchy trigger finger.

Oh this was a criminal, evil act, and I'd like to see them rounded up and some "justice" come to the perpetrators. 

This was an airliner flying in a recognised air lane at it's normal altitude and I'm sure it was making IFF squawks as a civilian transponder. On the face of it, the decision to fly the route should have been safe.  But I too believe these people were just reckless and eager to shoot down what they assumed was a military aircraft.

[edmundljs]

This world is fucked up.

[Justanotherfan]

Jesus Christ. Still can't believe it. I just pray that whoever responsible for this, directly or not so, is going to burn in hell.

[Ken-Obi]

I'm trying to not read the reports on the ground, swallowing lumps in my throat while feeling the rage burning inside.

It's always the innocent who lose the most.