Author Topic: "Sell-Off" - The Abolition of Your NHS (Read 85724 times)

macca007 · « **Reply #480 on:** May 31, 2017, 11:13:48 am »

Has anyone read up on the naylor report! How the fuck it's not getting reported is beyond me

saoirse08 · « **Reply #481 on:** June 1, 2017, 04:13:09 pm »

This again: https://twitter.com/doctor_oxford/status/870265513632575488

macca007 · « **Reply #482 on:** August 31, 2017, 07:29:09 am »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41086171

NHS 'leaking millions' in PFI contracts
30 August 2017

The NHS is "leaking" money to private companies in contracts to build and run hospitals, a report says.
Under the Private Finance Initiative (PFI), companies provide money for new hospitals and then charge annual fees.
The Centre for Health and the Public Interest (CHPI) publication - based on 107 PFI contracts in England - said such companies had made pre-tax profits of £831m in the past six years.
The Department of Health said less than 3% of the NHS budget was spent on PFI.
PFI has always provoked vigorous debate about whether the benefit is worth the long-term cost.
The CHPI argues the money made by private companies could have been spent on patients.
Colin Leys, one of the chairmen of the CHPI, said: "This report shows for the first time the huge amount of taxpayers' money which is leaking out of the NHS through the profits generated by PFI companies.
"Given the extreme austerity in the NHS, where patients are being denied treatment and waiting times for operations are rising, the government needs to take action to stop this leakage of taxpayer funds out of the NHS."
The CHPI is calling for:
Caps on the amount of profit that can be made from PFI contracts
Taxing PFI companies to recoup costs
Either renegotiating PFI contracts or using government loans to "buy out" companies
A Department of Health spokeswoman said: "The NHS is recognised by the independent Commonwealth Fund as the most efficient healthcare system in the world and currently spends less than 3% of its annual budget on PFI.
"The first PFI contracts for NHS hospitals, which were signed in 1997, range between 25 and 30 years.
"This report analyses just six years of contracts and, as a result, does not represent the full picture."

hide5seek · « **Reply #483 on:** November 4, 2017, 08:11:28 am »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-health-department-nhs-legal-action-americanise-privatisation-customers-id-pay-a8033986.html

thejbs · « **Reply #484 on:** November 14, 2017, 11:56:51 am »

Doc referred me to MRI for my back problems. Only in my mid-thirties but I can barely walk at the moment and am in constant pain. She said i'd have to wait up to 6 or 7 weeks which I was ok with.

Having heard nothing from the MRI dept in 5 weeks, I rang up this morning. I was told I should expect an appointment in 8-10 months!!! Should I then need surgery (I hope I won't but my doc says it's looking likely), the current spinal surgery waiting time is around 18 months.

I've been long saying that what the Tories want is to push more and more people into private healthcare so they can eventually privatise the whole system, and now here I am playing into their hands by having to go private. It's a shitty state of affairs but my options are pain/disability or paying out so I don't have a choice.

Fiasco · « **Reply #485 on:** January 13, 2018, 02:15:31 am »

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been bumped sooner. I'm sure you've all seen lately just how bad of a state the NHS is in. People are dying on the corridors, makeshift wards are popping up to put patients in, ambulances are bumper-to-bumper outside queuing up, admin staff going above and beyond to help clean and do jobs they aren't paid for simply because those who are cannot cope with the volume of work needing to be done.

The blame lies squarely at the feet of Jeremy C*nt and Theresa May, of that there can be little doubt. The staff, from cleaners to nurses to senior doctors, deserve better than this. Patients deserve better than this. How bad is it going to get?

losCHUNK · « **Reply #486 on:** January 13, 2018, 03:25:48 am »

The misses is a ward manager, there's barely enough equipment on the ward to keep functioning, wards being run without qualified nurses n all with patients getting treatment in ambulances queue'd up outside. All operations cancelled to make room for winter pressure, she's short staffed but she's telling me of other wards that have no nurses that are qualified to perform a large number of basic procedures (venthlons ? n stuff). She hasn't had a dinner break in a week either, "too much to do".

Seriously wanna kick Mays teeth out. It's at breaking point now from the sounds of it, it will get better after winter pressure but the organisation is sinking.

Had an arguement with a mate the other day n all about how 'it's not an issue of money, but management'. How can you even attempt to manage something that is literally being held together by the staff going above and beyond ?. If this was a company selling TVs no one would give a shit, everyone would do what they can, go home and the company would fold but this is peoples lives at stake.

hide5seek · « **Reply #487 on:** January 13, 2018, 04:47:26 am »

Quote from: losCHUNK on January 13, 2018, 03:25:48 am

The misses is a ward manager, there's barely enough equipment on the ward to keep functioning, wards being run without qualified nurses n all with patients getting treatment in ambulances queue'd up outside. All operations cancelled to make room for winter pressure, she's short staffed but she's telling me of other wards that have no nurses that are qualified to perform a large number of basic procedures (venthlons ? n stuff). She hasn't had a dinner break in a week either, "too much to do".

Seriously wanna kick Mays teeth out. It's at breaking point now from the sounds of it, it will get better after winter pressure but the organisation is sinking.

Had an arguement with a mate the other day n all about how 'it's not an issue of money, but management'. How can you even attempt to manage something that is literally being held together by the staff going above and beyond ?. If this was a company selling TVs no one would give a shit, everyone would do what they can, go home and the company would fold but this is peoples lives at stake.

Ask your mate what do we spend on NHS in GDP terms compared to other countries?
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS/

macca007 · « **Reply #488 on:** January 13, 2018, 08:55:27 am »

For the first time ever I've seen trolleys qued up outside a and e where I am. Biggest problems are we can't shift patients out of wards to social care as they've been fucked with money which creates a backlog and also staff shortages which will only get worse with people being put off by wages when qualified and having to pay 9k a year. Still cant belive they brought in tuition fees and cancelled bursaries. Junior doctors who fucked off to oz when they where protesting. They warned everyone about it. Had more flu admissions than ever aswell with people who have needed to be admitted. And yet Jeremy C*nt can only apologise. Fuck him

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #489 on:** January 13, 2018, 09:24:03 am »

Brexit guaranteed that the NHS would be given away to big pharma.

redbyrdz · « **Reply #490 on:** January 13, 2018, 10:36:46 am »

Quote from: Fiasco on January 13, 2018, 02:15:31 am

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been bumped sooner. I'm sure you've all seen lately just how bad of a state the NHS is in. People are dying on the corridors, makeshift wards are popping up to put patients in, ambulances are bumper-to-bumper outside queuing up, admin staff going above and beyond to help clean and do jobs they aren't paid for simply because those who are cannot cope with the volume of work needing to be done.

The blame lies squarely at the feet of Jeremy C*nt and Theresa May, of that there can be little doubt. The staff, from cleaners to nurses to senior doctors, deserve better than this. Patients deserve better than this. How bad is it going to get?

Agree. There needs to be more pressure on the government to increase the budget.

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #491 on:** January 13, 2018, 10:44:02 am »

Quote from: Fiasco on January 13, 2018, 02:15:31 am

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been bumped sooner. I'm sure you've all seen lately just how bad of a state the NHS is in. People are dying on the corridors, makeshift wards are popping up to put patients in, ambulances are bumper-to-bumper outside queuing up, admin staff going above and beyond to help clean and do jobs they aren't paid for simply because those who are cannot cope with the volume of work needing to be done.

The blame lies squarely at the feet of Jeremy C*nt and Theresa May, of that there can be little doubt. The staff, from cleaners to nurses to senior doctors, deserve better than this. Patients deserve better than this. How bad is it going to get?

Er. The Tories are in power. As soon as the country voted them in, the NHS is doomed.

It's simple. I've got friends and family that worked in the NHS. They've all left. Actual people wanting to work there is declining and the money has been reducing year on year.

In what universe, with declining staff levels, with training being cut and people not as experienced coming in with no money coming in can anyone expect the Health Service to be a going concern?

As soon as the Tories got back in they wanted to complete the job of giving away the NHS. Simple as that.

It'll be all owned by US Pharma in 5 years and you'll have to pay £200 to have a basic appointment, £100,000 for an operation of any note and you'll be charge £500 a day for a bed.

losCHUNK · « **Reply #492 on:** January 13, 2018, 03:07:29 pm »

Quote from: hide5seek on January 13, 2018, 04:47:26 am

Ask your mate what do we spend on NHS in GDP terms compared to other countries?
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS/

How can I argue with his top quality evidence such as 'the NHS send me letters about my kids for really mundane things' or 'I've used the NHS loads the last 2 years, in 2 different counties and not experienced any excessive wait times and have only needed to use my private health insurance once for something the NHS didn't offer'... To be fair he had a cancer scare and his sister had a rare cancer disease that was fortunately cured, I don't wanna seem insensitive cos obviously it's a horrible situation. I just said that I can't say much about your experience then mentioned what the misses was experiencing, along with the following -

I had a friend wait 3 months to find out if something was cancer or not tho and I've been put on and taken off the waiting list 3 times for a bankart legion now, have given up with it.

It's that type of thinking that's gonna play into the hands of privatistion though, blame management, government run institutions never work, private sector will offer a better service etc etc

macca007 · « **Reply #493 on:** February 9, 2018, 09:38:20 am »

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527#ICID=sharebar_facebook

Trada · « **Reply #494 on:** July 11, 2018, 10:16:05 am »

An article on the influential Conservative Home website today proposes charging NHS users for GP visits and hospital stays:

-HH- · « **Reply #495 on:** July 15, 2018, 03:15:14 pm »

So if they're charging for ward stays then presumably they'll cover the rent/mortgage of the person who is kept in who will still have to pay those regardless of whether they are home or not. Right? Course not.

Also, the most telling part of that is the bit about how NHS dentists work without citizen complaint. The idea is not to make charges fair (not that charges are fair anyway) but to charge as much as they can get away with.

drmick · « **Reply #496 on:** July 15, 2018, 04:26:48 pm »

The equivalent of a plastic bag tax for health would go a long to get people to take more responsibility for their own health, in my opinion.

So… Howard Philips · « **Reply #497 on:** July 15, 2018, 04:57:51 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 04:26:48 pm

The equivalent of a plastic bag tax for health would go a long to get people to take more responsibility for their own health, in my opinion.

Like the taxes on alcohol, tobacco and now sugary products?

drmick · « **Reply #498 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:01:54 pm »

Quote from: So... Howard Phillips on July 15, 2018, 04:57:51 pm

Like the taxes on alcohol, tobacco and now sugary products?

Free booze? Where?!?!

Zeb · « **Reply #499 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:06:09 pm »

It's counter-productive to start levying charges. People will put off doing things and then only seek treatment when it's even more expensive to treat them. We need to get back to what Labour did when last they were in government. Ben Barr (Liverpool University) has been doing a ton of super research into public healthy policy the past few years, and his last published paper is a humdinger.

A summary is here: http://blog.pauldcorrigan.com/2018/06/26/yes-we-can-reduce-the-inequalities-of-life-expectancy-we-know-how-to-do-this/

Quote

A recent study gives us more hope for immediate action – it provides hard evidence that Governments in general and the NHS in particular can actually do something to turn this history around. With strong focus and consistency we can reduce the gap in life expectancy between the better off and the poor that has been growing for most of the last 50 years.

Excuse me while I jump up and down with glee a bit but it shows that even in the pretty dark times of 2018 that politics work. Not only can we improve people’s lives but we can help them live longer.

The English Health Inequalities Strategy was a cross-government strategy implemented between 1997 and 2010. Over 13 years the New Labour governments of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown kept to the strategy and it was only when the coalition government came to power that government lost focus on the policy – and ‘normal’ times resumed.

This study is the first to analyse the impact of this policy by looking at its data on impact on life expectancy. Its conclusion is,

“The English health inequalities strategy was associated with a decline in geographical inequalities in life expectancy, reversing a previously increasing trend. Since the strategy ended, inequalities have started to increase again. The strategy may have reduced geographical health inequalities in life expectancy, and future approaches should learn from this experience."

This stuff was working. It was cost effective. And it had meaningful results in terms of health and life expectancy. Giving kids, even those born into the poorest of circumstances, a decent chance of avoiding a whole host of later life problems.

Or we could charge people (who'll likely be the poorest and sickest) for basic treatment.

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #500 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:15:48 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 05:01:54 pm

Free booze? Where?!?!

Who mentioned free anything ?

drmick · « **Reply #501 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:28:35 pm »

Quote from: WhereAngelsPlay on July 15, 2018, 05:15:48 pm

Who mentioned free anything ?

NHS is free. And so were plastic bags.

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #502 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:33:42 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 05:28:35 pm

NHS is free. And so were plastic bags.

NHS is NOT free and your reply about free booze totally ignored the point of So... Howard Phillips post which was to point out that those items are taxed higher because of the medical harm that they can cause,he was pointing out that those higher taxes were the original plastic bag tax.

drmick · « **Reply #503 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:43:39 pm »

The NHS is free at the point of use.

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #504 on:** July 15, 2018, 05:46:44 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 05:43:39 pm

The NHS is free at the point of use.

Whatever.

drmick · « **Reply #505 on:** July 15, 2018, 07:31:19 pm »

My point is, that for everything that is free (water from your tap, refills for soft drink in the US, plastic bags at the shops, 0800 numbers etc) the public at large treat it as throwaway stuff to be wasted en masse with no obvious downside.

But if you introduce a nominal charge (water meter, no free refills, 5p per plastic bag, a phone number charged at local rate) it produces a massive change in behaviour across the population.

Right now in the UK, there is no financial penalty if someone chooses to not look after their health, and for some they abuse the privilege of free healthcare.

My wife is a GP, and it is quite frightening the crap she has to deal with on a daily basis. Even more so in the out of hours period, where people will seek help (from an emergency service!) over a pimple!

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #506 on:** July 15, 2018, 07:44:10 pm »

You asked for a health plastic bag tax & it was pointed out that several already exist in the form of high taxes on unhealthy products.

Not sure why you're ignoring that fact & to be honest I'm not that arsed either.

Mutton Geoff · « **Reply #507 on:** July 15, 2018, 07:48:22 pm »

I thought Hunt going might be a bonus but this Hancock is just an even worse carpetbagger by the look of it. God help the NHS

TheShanklyGates · « **Reply #508 on:** July 15, 2018, 07:56:04 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 07:31:19 pm

My point is, that for everything that is free (water from your tap, refills for soft drink in the US, plastic bags at the shops, 0800 numbers etc) the public at large treat it as throwaway stuff to be wasted en masse with no obvious downside.

But if you introduce a nominal charge (water meter, no free refills, 5p per plastic bag, a phone number charged at local rate) it produces a massive change in behaviour across the population.

Right now in the UK, there is no financial penalty if someone chooses to not look after their health, and for some they abuse the privilege of free healthcare.

My wife is a GP, and it is quite frightening the crap she has to deal with on a daily basis. Even more so in the out of hours period, where people will seek help (from an emergency service!) over a pimple!

Charging people for healthcare won't make them look after themselves any better, it'll simply make them less likely to go and see their doctor, which is how perfectly treatable ailments end up going undiagnosed and become debilitating or even lethal in the absence of treatment. I've got a bad back for example - nothing too serious but something that would get worse over time if left untreated. I got physio for free through the NHS - if I'd had to pay to get it looked at then I'd have just put up with it and I'm certain that I'm not alone in that. I'd much rather live in a country where you can visit a doctor with a trivial health complaint than one where people let themselves get sick because they can't afford to get healthcare.

drmick · « **Reply #509 on:** July 15, 2018, 08:17:00 pm »

Quote from: WhereAngelsPlay on July 15, 2018, 07:44:10 pm

You asked for a health plastic bag tax & it was pointed out that several already exist in the form of high taxes on unhealthy products.

Not sure why you're ignoring that fact & to be honest I'm not that arsed either.

A charge at the point of delivery, is different to paying an extra 5p for a pack of cigarettes. It's not even remotely the same thing.

drmick · « **Reply #510 on:** July 15, 2018, 08:22:11 pm »

Quote from: TheShanklyGates on July 15, 2018, 07:56:04 pm

Charging people for healthcare won't make them look after themselves any better, it'll simply make them less likely to go and see their doctor, which is how perfectly treatable ailments end up going undiagnosed and become debilitating or even lethal in the absence of treatment. I've got a bad back for example - nothing too serious but something that would get worse over time if left untreated. I got physio for free through the NHS - if I'd had to pay to get it looked at then I'd have just put up with it and I'm certain that I'm not alone in that. I'd much rather live in a country where you can visit a doctor with a trivial health complaint than one where people let themselves get sick because they can't afford to get healthcare.

My wife says the public can be educated to look after their own backs, do their own physio, via online resources, FWIW.

TepidT2O · « **Reply #511 on:** July 15, 2018, 08:25:32 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 08:22:11 pm

My wife says the public can be educated to look after their own backs, do their own physio, via online resources, FWIW.

They can. Charging them to see a GP won’t make them do this any better.

What it will absolutely do is stop people who can’t afford it from seeing a GP on some occasions...

And that will lead to deaths.

It will stop all those nagging doubt visits which turn out to be something sinister.

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #512 on:** July 15, 2018, 08:37:34 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 08:17:00 pm

A charge at the point of delivery, is different to paying an extra 5p for a pack of cigarettes. It's not even remotely the same thing.

Now you're just being stupid for the sake of it.

drmick · « **Reply #513 on:** July 15, 2018, 08:59:24 pm »

Quote from: Tepid T₂O on July 15, 2018, 08:25:32 pm

They can. Charging them to see a GP won’t make them do this any better.

What it will absolutely do is stop people who can’t afford it from seeing a GP on some occasions...

And that will lead to deaths.

It will stop all those nagging doubt visits which turn out to be something sinister.

Somebody pointed earlier that delayed treatment can lead to increased costs further down the line. But sadly, quick deaths can also represent savings.

Prevention of illness is the greater cost saver, more so than early detection. An educated public is key to that. A motivated public is key to that also.

Singapore have an interesting approach. It is their very culture that every contact with the health service has to incur a financial cost, that it cannot be free. At its worst their health care has the same problems as that of the US, but it is interesting that their society insists that it cannot be free.

WhereAngelsPlay · « **Reply #514 on:** July 15, 2018, 09:20:55 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 08:59:24 pm

Somebody pointed earlier that delayed treatment can lead to increased costs further down the line. But sadly, quick deaths can also represent savings.

Prevention of illness is the greater cost saver, more so than early detection. An educated public is key to that. A motivated public is key to that also.

Singapore have an interesting approach. It is their very culture that every contact with the health service has to incur a financial cost, that it cannot be free. At its worst their health care has the same problems as that of the US, but it is interesting that their society insists that it cannot be free.

This is one of those posts where if I say exactly how I feel then I would be banned for life.

You are obviously just a WUM.

Gerry Attrick · « **Reply #515 on:** July 15, 2018, 09:25:20 pm »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 08:59:24 pm

Somebody pointed earlier that delayed treatment can lead to increased costs further down the line. But sadly, quick deaths can also represent savings.

Prevention of illness is the greater cost saver, more so than early detection. An educated public is key to that. A motivated public is key to that also.

Singapore have an interesting approach. It is their very culture that every contact with the health service has to incur a financial cost, that it cannot be free. At its worst their health care has the same problems as that of the US, but it is interesting that their society insists that it cannot be free.

That actually made my blood run cold for a second.

drmick · « **Reply #516 on:** July 15, 2018, 11:17:11 pm »

Quote from: Gerry Attrick on July 15, 2018, 09:25:20 pm

That actually made my blood run cold for a second.

If you think that is bad, you should see what way the NHS legal defence services rank pay out costs, when it comes to culpable deaths.

Also, in the event of a genuine disaster (such as a severe pandemic) the Trusts have policies on which type of patient should be given access to intensive care beds, and which should be excluded.

rob1966 · « **Reply #517 on:** July 16, 2018, 09:23:13 am »

Quote from: Tepid T₂O on July 15, 2018, 08:25:32 pm

They can. Charging them to see a GP won’t make them do this any better.

What it will absolutely do is stop people who can’t afford it from seeing a GP on some occasions...

And that will lead to deaths.

It will stop all those nagging doubt visits which turn out to be something sinister.

In my late 20's I just brushed off an illness that almost killed me, I ended up needing open heart surgery. Couple of years ago I found a lump in my neck, my wife was all "don't go the doctors, its just a lump". After weeks of worry I went, got told it was just a cyst but got sent for a precautionary scan, where they found odd lumps in my thyroid. On my birthday I got a letter saying only one in eight who get this letter will have cancer and was put on the two week cancer pathway. Luckily the biopsies came back negative, but that shows just how easily things can go undetected.

Wilmo · « **Reply #518 on:** July 16, 2018, 11:44:57 am »

Quote from: drmick on July 15, 2018, 11:17:11 pm

If you think that is bad, you should see what way the NHS legal defence services rank pay out costs, when it comes to culpable deaths.

Also, in the event of a genuine disaster (such as a severe pandemic) the Trusts have policies on which type of patient should be given access to intensive care beds, and which should be excluded.

This is interesting, do you have any links I could look at? Not doubting you, but would like to read further. Cheers

drmick · « **Reply #519 on:** July 16, 2018, 03:45:38 pm »

Quote from: Wilmo on July 16, 2018, 11:44:57 am

This is interesting, do you have any links I could look at? Not doubting you, but would like to read further. Cheers

On the Flu pandemic stuff, a bit of googling gives you a few policies, but for the crucial decisions they refer on to existing policies, and local Trust policies (The local policies tend to hidden on trust intranets).

For the deaths, a bit of googling gives you individual payout stories. The Daily Mail did an article here on some of it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102865/NHS-pays-100MILLION-compensation-families-patients-died-hospital-medics-blunders.html