Author Topic: Andres Iniesta  (Read 39634 times)

Offline Jehst1979

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #200 on: February 21, 2014, 07:25:57 pm »
Just a truly wonderful player, if ever the words graceful and elegant should be attached to a footballer then its to Iniesta, for me better than Zidane in his pomp, people quoting stats and stuff, look at what his won in his career so far, World Cup Winning goal, two European Championships, the list is endless.... what a magical player

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #201 on: February 21, 2014, 09:01:10 pm »
A majestic player...and responsible for my favourite ever non-LFC footy moment....If anyone ever queries how you can get so caught up in a game not involving your own side...show them this

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/DZnK92KO7D4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/DZnK92KO7D4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1</a>

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Offline Camarero25

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #202 on: February 22, 2014, 12:32:42 am »
I'm curious as to whether AWWWYC has ever actually watched a Barca game outside of matches vs English sides in the Champions League?

Even if he hasn't Iniesta's pretty much bummed all of them. He's just wrong.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #203 on: February 22, 2014, 10:10:49 am »
Just a truly wonderful player, if ever the words graceful and elegant should be attached to a footballer then its to Iniesta, for me better than Zidane in his pomp, people quoting stats and stuff, look at what his won in his career so far, World Cup Winning goal, two European Championships, the list is endless.... what a magical player

I disagree. Zidane was better.
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #204 on: February 22, 2014, 03:04:23 pm »
I disagree. Zidane was better.
On his day, you should add. Loved watching Zidane, but he was not as consistent as Iniesta.

The whole Galacticos project wasn't consistent enough to win trophies domestically and in Europe. Imagine, they bought Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, Beckham and they had Roberto Carlos, Casillas etc. Perez was buying all the star players he could get to.

Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #205 on: February 22, 2014, 03:26:30 pm »
On his day, you should add. Loved watching Zidane, but he was not as consistent as Iniesta.

The whole Galacticos project wasn't consistent enough to win trophies domestically and in Europe. Imagine, they bought Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, Beckham and they had Roberto Carlos, Casillas etc. Perez was buying all the star players he could get to.

Iniesta himself is not that consistent.

I wouldn't go the way of Anywhichwayyoucan, but at the same time I do think Iniesta is a bit overrated - like Zidane - in that despite being in arguably the best teams of their time, despite having largely attacking roles, and despite their supreme technical ability; their numbers don't match the hype.

You can try to convolute the argument into faffed intricacies to build the visage of a point; but at the end of the day players in their position are largely judged by their attacking output.
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Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #206 on: February 22, 2014, 03:31:23 pm »
Iniesta himself is not that consistent.

I wouldn't go the way of Anywhichwayyoucan, but at the same time I do think Iniesta is a bit overrated - like Zidane - in that despite being in arguably the best teams of their time, despite having largely attacking roles, and despite their supreme technical ability; their numbers don't match the hype.

You can try to convolute the argument into faffed intricacies to build the visage of a point; but at the end of the day players in their position are largely judged by their attacking output.

Brace yourself pal.


Offline thegoodfella

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #207 on: February 22, 2014, 03:36:10 pm »
Brace yourself pal.

That masochist in you really loves the abuse, no? ;D

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #208 on: February 22, 2014, 03:38:34 pm »
Iniesta himself is not that consistent.

I wouldn't go the way of Anywhichwayyoucan, but at the same time I do think Iniesta is a bit overrated - like Zidane - in that despite being in arguably the best teams of their time, despite having largely attacking roles, and despite their supreme technical ability; their numbers don't match the hype.

You can try to convolute the argument into faffed intricacies to build the visage of a point; but at the end of the day players in their position are largely judged by their attacking output.
This is where we disagree. Numbers are important, but for a player like Iniesta, the numbers include passes, passes completed, dribbles, possession. If you limit your numbers with goals and assists, then you can end up with weird conclusions. This is why a midfield of Lampard and Gerrard doesn't produce the same number of goals they produce separately for Chelsea and Liverpool.

Zidane's one of the better games was in WC2006 vs Brazil. And it wasn't even because of his assist really, he was good because he dominated Brazil. Iniesta and Zidane dominate their opponents. Players like these+Xavi+Alonso are among the very best not because of number of goals&assists.

Anyway, give me a midfield trio of Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets, who combined probably don't have numbers of Lampard, vs Lampard, Vidal and take your pick. The latter will be watching the ball for most of the game.

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #209 on: February 22, 2014, 03:53:29 pm »
Oh, and by the way, Cesc has much better "numbers" than either Xavi or Iniesta, in fact, I think his numbers are probably more than sum of these 2 combined. However, ask Barca fans who is the better player, Iniesta or Cesc, I am sure most will say Iniesta. Xavi is declining, but even now, he sometimes demonstrates games that are beyond Cesc's level.

Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #210 on: February 22, 2014, 05:11:09 pm »
This is where we disagree. Numbers are important, but for a player like Iniesta, the numbers include passes, passes completed, dribbles, possession. If you limit your numbers with goals and assists, then you can end up with weird conclusions. This is why a midfield of Lampard and Gerrard doesn't produce the same number of goals they produce separately for Chelsea and Liverpool.

Zidane's one of the better games was in WC2006 vs Brazil. And it wasn't even because of his assist really, he was good because he dominated Brazil. Iniesta and Zidane dominate their opponents. Players like these+Xavi+Alonso are among the very best not because of number of goals&assists.

Anyway, give me a midfield trio of Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets, who combined probably don't have numbers of Lampard, vs Lampard, Vidal and take your pick. The latter will be watching the ball for most of the game.

The problem is you are using a team achievement in order to back up the assertion that there are stats that don't measure how good they are and that's just a correlative achievement. You can basically peddle anything you want under that guise.

As I said before, as attacking midfielders, in the most attacking stats categories, they're not really creating the output commensurate with the esteem they're held in. The one facet between the Barca players is their high passing totals and accuracy.  In terms of their other stats, the ones you've mentioned, they're still not particularly superlative.

They're fortunate to have played in a team that was perfectly suited to letting them play to their strengths of possession play while they had some of the greatest attacking talent ahead of them. They came from the same academy, with the same footballing education and they were supremely skilled to boot.

The Lampard-Gerrard argument doesn't make sense. It doesn't diminish them as players because they're not suited to play together as a pair because they have redundant qualities when the other is playing. To use your example to an even absurd level; you're basically accusing people of wanting to field 11 forwards because theoretically they'll score more than the opposition. That's clearly not the point; balance in a team matters; but we're not talking about that.

Talk about their individual input in terms of the position they play insofar as it is comparable. Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets really flourish post-2008 and particularly when Pep comes. That's what took their possession game to a new level and the same is happening to Bayern. Put a lot of their contemporaries in that position and they'll improve as well - and will probably even contribute more offensively.

That they're great players is beyond dispute, they are. But my point was that they're overrated insofar as the esteem they seem to be held. Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets could be transplanted to Fulham and they'll help dominate possession; but it is in those kinds of contexts where their lack of output offensively will show. That it hasn't in their current teams is more a credit to the ridiculous talent around them (particularly in front of them): Messi, Villa, Henry, Eto'o, Ibra and then you have guys like Sanchez, Pedro and Cesc. Also Cesc has played as a more attacking player (often a false 9) and that's particularly why he has better output, combined with the fact that he has better vision/ability to score and create in the attacking third.

Also, aside from the fact that Iniesta's scoring and assist numbers aren't really off the charts, he's been injured a hefty amount and that's a mark against him as well. You really can't use Iniesta as an example to call Zidane inconsistent.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 06:10:44 pm by Halcyon Lissome »
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Offline Lucaspool FC

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #211 on: February 22, 2014, 05:12:58 pm »
for me better than Zidane in his pomp

Maybe but he's behind players like Laudrup, Zico, Cruyff, Platini if you ask me. But yes Iniesta is a special player.

Offline Xxavi

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #212 on: February 22, 2014, 05:36:32 pm »
The problem is you are using a team achievement in order to back up the assertion that there are stats that don't measure how good they are and that's just a correlative achievement.
And the importance you give to stats don't give the whole picture about the team performance. In the end, teams win trophies. And Xavi and Iniesta are ultimate team players, and as such, the stats don't tell the justice. They elevate performance of players around them, they are the glue that keeps the team's football and performances.

This is one of the reasons why a team like England didn't perform well even if they had Lampard and Gerrard in midfield, both high-scoring midfielders. There was no glue in that midfield, players played individually, and ended up getting dominated by teams like Algeria and Ukraine.

If you are not going to consider the achievement of their respective teams when comparing players, it's an incomplete comparison. It's funny that Iniesta's and Xavi's achievements are always "thanks to this" and "thanks to that". It was strikers before, but when Barca play Pedro and Alexis and Cesc as a false nine, then there are no strikers, yet Barca remain a great team. Similarly, Spain had Torres and Villa out of form, occasionally played without a striker. But I guess then Alba is the reason why Spain won Euro2012 ;D

Xavi and Iniesta dominated every team they faced for 4-5 years both at the club and International level. Never was there an excuse. But if I give any other high scoring midfielder performing in big tourneys and games, I am sure you will find 10 excuses why it didn't go according to your script.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 05:44:28 pm by Xxavi »

Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #213 on: February 22, 2014, 06:06:24 pm »
And the importance you give to stats don't give the whole picture about the team performance. In the end, teams win trophies. And Xavi and Iniesta are ultimate team players, and as such, the stats don't tell the justice. They elevate performance of players around them, they are the glue that keeps the team's football and performances.

And Gerrard, Lampard, Totti, Pirlo, etc aren't team players? That they may be the best suited team and as a result successful, doesn't mean that as a singular player they're more valuable when we're talking about comparisons. For that end, imagine if Gerrard actually played in a team as talented as Iniesta's for most of his career? Do you really think they're winning any less?

Quote
This is one of the reasons why a team like England didn't perform well even if they had Lampard and Gerrard in midfield, both high-scoring midfielders. There was no glue in that midfield, players played individually, and ended up getting dominated by teams like Algeria and Ukraine.

The England team didn't win because tactically and individually they've never been a match for the teams that actually won it (Spain's Iniesta or Zidane's France). Just compare and you'll see that both for country and club those guys played in the teams of their generation more or less.

Take Gerrard, the guy's gone to 2 CL finals (one of them beating a European champions Barca with all their stars) with a team with half the talent. 2 CL finals is a dynastic kind of achievement. Do you think Iniesta or Xavi in his place, in those Liverpool teams, could have mustered that? No chance.
Quote
If you are not going to consider the achievement of their respective teams when comparing players, it's an incomplete comparison. It's funny that Iniesta's and Xavi's achievements are always "thanks to this" and "thanks to that". It was strikers before, but when Barca play Pedro and Alexis and Cesc as a false nine, then there are no strikers, yet Barca remain a great team. Similarly, Spain had Torres and Villa out of form, occasionally played without a striker. But I guess then Alba is the reason why Spain won Euro2012 ;D

You do take the team achievements into account; but ultimately you have to break down how much the individual helped in that team effort. In Iniesta you're talking about a 1/10 scoring midfielder and someone who doesn't supply a lot of assists to compensate or even key passes; nor is he defensively very brilliant; and trying to shove all that under the carpet because his team won. It's taking the piss, really.

Your argument has also descended into irrelevancy. Who cares if Alexis, Cesc or Pedro are out and out strikers if they're scoring and assisting so much? If Xavi and Iniesta are the reason they do so; why don't they have better offensive stats? I mean, it's gonna come down to a key pass, an assist or a goal from them eventually? It can't all be excused because they can pass 80 times @ 90% accuracy, surely?

Quote
Xavi and Iniesta dominated every team they faced for 4-5 years both at the club and International level. Never was there an excuse. But if I give any other high scoring midfielder performing in big tourneys and games, I am sure you will find 10 excuses why it didn't go according to your script.

No, BARCA/SPAIN (ironically, mostly the same set of players in each team) dominated their opposition. And they were a part of that brilliant system. But as aforesaid, even they weren't held in the same esteem until around 08.

It's not just picking on them. Zidane retired at 34 (a few months older than Gerrard is now) and besides a few games in the WC was largely spent force for the last 3 years of his career.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 06:12:56 pm by Halcyon Lissome »
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Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #214 on: February 22, 2014, 06:06:49 pm »
Iniesta himself is not that consistent.

I wouldn't go the way of Anywhichwayyoucan, but at the same time I do think Iniesta is a bit overrated - like Zidane - in that despite being in arguably the best teams of their time, despite having largely attacking roles, and despite their supreme technical ability; their numbers don't match the hype.

You can try to convolute the argument into faffed intricacies to build the visage of a point; but at the end of the day players in their position are largely judged by their attacking output.

Overrated are Messi and Cristiano. Zidane was the most important player of a very successful French side.
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Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #215 on: February 22, 2014, 06:19:53 pm »
Overrated are Messi and Cristiano. Zidane was the most important player of a very successful French side.

Messi > Cristiano >>> Zidane in terms of attacking players.

Zidane's Juve, Real and France were all incredibly stacked. Even without him they were great sides. Messi has underachieved internationally, but I think he'll rectify that eventually. Ronaldo is doing well, Portugal just aren't that good.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 06:24:13 pm by Halcyon Lissome »
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Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #216 on: February 22, 2014, 06:31:38 pm »
Great stuff, Halcyon.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #217 on: February 22, 2014, 06:36:31 pm »
Has nothing on Kevin Nolan
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Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #218 on: February 22, 2014, 06:37:03 pm »
Has nothing on Kevin Nolan
Scored another goal today, coupled with an assist.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #219 on: February 22, 2014, 06:50:12 pm »
And Gerrard, Lampard, Totti, Pirlo, etc aren't team players? That they may be the best suited team and as a result successful, doesn't mean that as a singular player they're more valuable when we're talking about comparisons. For that end, imagine if Gerrard actually played in a team as talented as Iniesta's for most of his career? Do you really think they're winning any less?

The England team didn't win because tactically and individually they've never been a match for the teams that actually won it (Spain's Iniesta or Zidane's France). Just compare and you'll see that both for country and club those guys played in the teams of their generation more or less.

Take Gerrard, the guy's gone to 2 CL finals (one of them beating a European champions Barca with all their stars) with a team with half the talent. 2 CL finals is a dynastic kind of achievement. Do you think Iniesta or Xavi in his place, in those Liverpool teams, could have mustered that? No chance.
You do take the team achievements into account; but ultimately you have to break down how much the individual helped in that team effort. In Iniesta you're talking about a 1/10 scoring midfielder and someone who doesn't supply a lot of assists to compensate or even key passes; nor is he defensively very brilliant; and trying to shove all that under the carpet because his team won. It's taking the piss, really.

Your argument has also descended into irrelevancy. Who cares if Alexis, Cesc or Pedro are out and out strikers if they're scoring and assisting so much? If Xavi and Iniesta are the reason they do so; why don't they have better offensive stats? I mean, it's gonna come down to a key pass, an assist or a goal from them eventually? It can't all be excused because they can pass 80 times @ 90% accuracy, surely?

No, BARCA/SPAIN (ironically, mostly the same set of players in each team) dominated their opposition. And they were a part of that brilliant system. But as aforesaid, even they weren't held in the same esteem until around 08.

It's not just picking on them. Zidane retired at 34 (a few months older than Gerrard is now) and besides a few games in the WC was largely spent force for the last 3 years of his career.

Iniesta created the most assists in la Liga, last season did he not, 16 assists in 24 starts to be exact.


Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #220 on: February 22, 2014, 07:04:30 pm »
Iniesta created the most assists in la Liga, last season did he not, 16 assists in 24 starts to be exact.

He did (24 starts and 7 sub appearances), it's his one particularly superlative season in that regard. But it's misleading when you look at his figures year on year in the league.

2013/14: 4 (so far)
2012/13: 16
2011/12: 9
2010/11: 3
2009/10: 5
2008/09: 8
2007/08: 3
2006/07: 4
2005/06: 4
2004/05: 0


These are not particularly great numbers (for an all-time great); they're good but not amazing and in the light of his lack of goals stick out. Especially for one in such a team, where they basically hold the ball for 70% of the game, in a 2 team league where they're scoring 90-115 goals a season.

Actually, this discussion reminds me of the photo going around comparing him to Ozil in this regard:

« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 07:17:55 pm by Halcyon Lissome »
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #221 on: February 22, 2014, 07:34:04 pm »
He did (24 starts and 7 sub appearances), it's his one particularly superlative season in that regard. But it's misleading when you look at his figures year on year in the league.

2013/14: 4 (so far)
2012/13: 16
2011/12: 9
2010/11: 3
2009/10: 5
2008/09: 8
2007/08: 3
2006/07: 4
2005/06: 4
2004/05: 0


These are not particularly great numbers (for an all-time great); they're good but not amazing and in the light of his lack of goals stick out. Especially for one in such a team, where they basically hold the ball for 70% of the game, in a 2 team league where they're scoring 90-115 goals a season.

Actually, this discussion reminds me of the photo going around comparing him to Ozil in this regard:



Good you posted that because it doesn't at all help your argument.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #222 on: February 22, 2014, 07:41:44 pm »
Ah more stats, yes I'd much rather have the coward Ozil in my team than Iniesta.
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #223 on: February 22, 2014, 07:44:06 pm »
All about those stats.


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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #224 on: February 22, 2014, 07:45:03 pm »
Ah more stats, yes I'd much rather have the coward Ozil in my team than Iniesta.

Rather have Guti than either.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #225 on: February 22, 2014, 07:52:15 pm »
Good you posted that because it doesn't at all help your argument.

Only if you want to ignore annoying things like facts. It shows the attacking output a world class playmaker, in a comparable side, has. Want me to list other players?  ;)

Ozil lacks in other facets (particular the mental side of the game IMO) and that's why he's the inferior player. I don't envisage him ever being the big-game player Iniesta is, but I guess he has time. Nonetheless, the point stands. Iniesta is not a consistent player in terms of attacking output. It's simply a fact. You can laud him all you want for the other aspects of his game, but don't pretend it doesn't matter.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 08:16:28 pm by Halcyon Lissome »
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Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #226 on: February 22, 2014, 08:10:30 pm »
I love how everyone says "All about those stats", when no one is saying it's all about the stats. But it's equally not all about what competitions he has won, yano, as part as a team, a team tailor made for him.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 08:13:27 pm by Anywhichwayucan »

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #227 on: February 22, 2014, 08:45:33 pm »
I love how everyone says "All about those stats", when no one is saying it's all about the stats. But it's equally not all about what competitions he has won, yano, as part as a team, a team tailor made for him.

It's more about watching him every week and seeing what he brings to a game.
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #228 on: February 22, 2014, 09:04:09 pm »
Stats, stats. Messi and Cristiano have plenty...with their clubs. What have they won with their NT?

Did you see Barcelona today without Xavi, a player with worse stats than me?

The best player by far of his generation and the main reason Barcelona and Spain have won so much.

Hopefully he will say his farewell this summer on a high.



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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #229 on: February 22, 2014, 09:24:05 pm »
Overrated are Messi and Cristiano. Zidane was the most important player of a very successful French side.
Zidane carried that French team to the World Cup final in 2006, literally.
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #230 on: February 22, 2014, 11:42:02 pm »
Rather have Guti than either.
Haha I love these kinds of flashy nothing players too. That clown Guti had Galacticos around him, world's very best players and he won? Yes, nothing. He was an average striker, and as a midfielder, he was all about flashy moments mixed in with a lot of bang average performances.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 01:28:11 am by Xxavi »

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #231 on: February 23, 2014, 12:10:12 am »
Haha I love these kinds of flashy nothing players too. That clown Guti had Galacticos around him, world's very best players and he won? Yes, nothing. He was an average striker, and as a defender, he was all about flashy moments mixed in with a lot of bang average performances.
Guti wasn't an average striker or someone who could ever have been considered a striker. Guti was technically brilliant.

I have no idea what the bolded part means. As a defender?

Also, he won nothing? He won everything including 3 champions leagues.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #232 on: February 23, 2014, 12:54:50 am »
Zidane carried that French team to the World Cup final in 2006, literally.

He was the brains of that team since euro 96. No Zidane and they would not  have won nearly as much. The same thing with Barca and Spain without Xavi.

Actually we are seeing a Barcelona with a lesser version of Xavi or no Xavi at all and what has become.
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #233 on: February 23, 2014, 01:23:20 am »
Zidane carried that French team to the World Cup final in 2006, literally.

Eh? No no no... Zidane had 5 goals 2 assists in the entire world cup.. Zidane has 2 assists, a free kick and a corner. He also scored 2 penalties as well. Rivaldo overshadowed him. Not to say Zidane wasn't great, he was but he didn't carry them in the WC final. He was quality, and they probably wouldn't have reached the final without him however to say that he did it on his own Maradona esque is 100% wrong.
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #234 on: February 23, 2014, 01:30:21 am »
Guti wasn't an average striker or someone who could ever have been considered a striker. Guti was technically brilliant.

I have no idea what the bolded part means. As a defender?

Also, he won nothing? He won everything including 3 champions leagues.
Sorry, I meant midfielder.

He won CL titles as a sub striker mostly. Here, he is compared to Iniesta, who is a central midfielder. So I was asking when Guti played as a midfielder (after CL title years), in Galactico teams, what has he won? He played fairly regularly as well as a midfielder. He wasn't shit, no, but he was more about flashy moments than consistent high level.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 01:33:49 am by Xxavi »

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #235 on: February 23, 2014, 01:33:22 am »
Eh? No no no... Zidane had 5 goals 2 assists in the entire world cup.. Zidane has 2 assists, a free kick and a corner. He also scored 2 penalties as well. Rivaldo overshadowed him. Not to say Zidane wasn't great, he was but he didn't carry them in the WC final. He was quality, and they probably wouldn't have reached the final without him however to say that he did it on his own Maradona esque is 100% wrong.
He was talking about WC2006. Rivaldo? Are you talking about 2002 or 1998?

Anyway, enough with the stats. If you don't see the importance Zidane had in French NT without stats, you may want to re-watch some of their games.

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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #236 on: February 23, 2014, 04:31:06 am »
Zidane carried that French team to the World Cup final in 2006, literally.

Literally? LOL

No, he didn't. Players like Sagnol, Thuram, Makelele, Vieira, Ribery, Henry, Trezeguet, Abidal, Gallas... don't get carried by a 34 year old Zidane. Ironically, the game he was suspended in the group stage was the game they won that made qualified them for the knock-out rounds - before, with him, they drew both Switzerland and S.Korea.

The fact that it was his swan-song (and he was pretty amazing for a few games) gives people a rose-tinted look at those performances. But carry? This is the kind of silliness you get when you forgo logic.

As an aside, Iniesta was picked for that Spain squad in 06, but featured only in the dead-rubber against Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #237 on: February 23, 2014, 05:08:53 am »
Literally? LOL

No, he didn't. Players like Sagnol, Thuram, Makelele, Vieira, Ribery, Henry, Trezeguet, Abidal, Gallas... don't get carried by a 34 year old Zidane. Ironically, the game he was suspended in the group stage was the game they won that made qualified them for the knock-out rounds - before, with him, they drew both Switzerland and S.Korea.

The fact that it was his swan-song (and he was pretty amazing for a few games) gives people a rose-tinted look at those performances. But carry? This is the kind of silliness you get when you forgo logic.

As an aside, Iniesta was picked for that Spain squad in 06, but featured only in the dead-rubber against Saudi Arabia.
I remember clearly the whole team was shit during the first two games against Switzerland and Korea, he was suspended for the game against Togo which France won (as anyone would expect them to).

From the game against Spain, till the final, he carried that team, he completely bossed the games. No wonder the French lost faith the moment he was sent off in the final.
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #238 on: February 23, 2014, 05:34:44 am »
I remember clearly the whole team was shit during the first two games against Switzerland and Korea, he was suspended for the game against Togo which France won (as anyone would expect them to).

From the game against Spain, till the final, he carried that team, he completely bossed the games. No wonder the French lost faith the moment he was sent off in the final.

So you go half the games of the tournament without contributing and suddenly you've reinvented the wheel? I think we have a different definition for carrying a team. And although in hindsight it's easy to say you expected them to beat Togo; the disaster of 2002 coupled with their disappointment in 2004 made the first two games look eerily ominous. Zidane himself hadn't played to a really high standard for years.

I like Zidane and he was their best player from Spain game onwards - but he did not carry that team. It was classic France with the holders doing the dog-work, defensive solidity, with Zidane seeing a lot of the ball going forward.

Carry is what I'd term Maradona and 86 WC, not Zidane in 2006 WC.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 05:40:18 am by Halcyon Lissome »
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Re: Andres Iniesta
« Reply #239 on: February 23, 2014, 05:45:26 am »
Literally? LOL

No, he didn't. Players like Sagnol, Thuram, Makelele, Vieira, Ribery, Henry, Trezeguet, Abidal, Gallas... don't get carried by a 34 year old Zidane. Ironically, the game he was suspended in the group stage was the game they won that made qualified them for the knock-out rounds - before, with him, they drew both Switzerland and S.Korea.

The fact that it was his swan-song (and he was pretty amazing for a few games) gives people a rose-tinted look at those performances. But carry? This is the kind of silliness you get when you forgo logic.

As an aside, Iniesta was picked for that Spain squad in 06, but featured only in the dead-rubber against Saudi Arabia.
Mate, sorry to say that, but there is zero logic in your posts. Exactly, Iniesta and Xavi weren't given primary roles in Spanish NT teams and look at how their superb squads failed. Baraja, Albelda, Raul, Hierro, Valeron, Vicente etc. were shitting their pants with 100 excuses for Spain being bottlers. But the moment Xavi and Iniesta walk in, you start distributing their achievement to others. Oh it is because Spain now had Torres and Villa, oh Pedro emerged, oh Pique. Can you fucking follow your logic here? Who exactly made Spain great between 2008-2012?

You are doing the same for France and Zidane. If France do well, it is because of Henry, Vieira and countless other players. But if France fails without Zidane, then where are all these great players? You don't understand the difference between a world class class player like Henry and Vieira and a historical player like Zidane without getting your shitty numbers out. You don't understand the difference between world class players like Baraja, Valeron, Lampard etc. and a historical player like Iniesta. And that tells a lot...

You are the ultimate excuse maker. You will fabricate excuses all day long to fit your story line. If France do well with Zidane, it's because of Henry. If Spain do well with Iniesta, it's because of Arbeloa or somebody else. The fact that their national teams sucked without these players is due to 100 different excuses. Excuses like the ones you make for Lampard. Managers, a very similar midfielder next to him, right winger being Milner, striker being this blah blah blah. But what about the stats? Where did all brilliant numbers go?

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Ridiculous posts. Don't bother replying, I don't think there is a point in debating you. Hilariously shit.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 06:09:23 am by Xxavi »